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The Official VR6 Engine Swap by bmwguru
Started on: 12-16-2007 01:38 PM
Replies: 727 (103403 views)
Last post by: bmwguru on 08-02-2015 04:21 AM
Fieroseverywhere
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Report this Post04-01-2008 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Fits like a glove. Very nice work! The rest of us can only dream of tuneups that easy. What about fixing an exhaust manifold?Nicely done.


EDIT: Page 6 OWNAGE!

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 04-01-2008).]

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fieroman87
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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

The worst part is I gave up an addiction this weekend and my head is pounding.....energy drinks. But I started feeling like crap when I was drinking them, so I thought it was a good time to quit.
Dave


do yourself a favor and stay away from anything containing Aspertame... that's bad stuff being touted as an artificial sweetener. it causes lots of bad things and can't be processed properly by the body (because it's synthetic, and it's bad). if you're looking for an energy boost, try an orange. it's natural and has a boatload of vitamin C (good stuff)

------------------
Arty: a.k.a. FestYboy or Fieroman87
'87 GT 5 spd. (soon to be 3.6L TT 6 spd.), '88 Festiva 5 spd. rockin' a high revin' 1.6, '87 Scirocco 5 spd. (VR6 swap?)
AIM: FestYboy88L

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Austrian Import
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quote
Originally posted by fieroman87:


do yourself a favor and stay away from anything containing Aspertame... that's bad stuff being touted as an artificial sweetener. it causes lots of bad things and can't be processed properly by the body (because it's synthetic, and it's bad). if you're looking for an energy boost, try an orange. it's natural and has a boatload of vitamin C (good stuff)



I have to second that. I had an ex gf that had a lot of health problems partly because of Aspartame. Really bad stuff. We replaced the Aspartame with Splenda and a whole lot of her problems went away or decreased in severity. Plus it tastes better. It's like 15.000 times as sweet as sugar, vs. Aspartames 12.000 or so times. Me likes sugar.

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Report this Post04-02-2008 02:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikClick Here to Email ErikSend a Private Message to ErikEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

green tea with caffeine is good for energy..its not going to hurt to add 12 grams ..about 3 sugar cubes for sweetening + green tea cold or hot is loaded with antioxidants and guys, its also good for your prostate. Just keep yoursugar consumtion in check and it will keep you from being tired crappy ..
diabetics need more monitoring of course

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bmwguru
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I was mixing weight lifting energy drinks from GNC and Monster drinks....I gave up the Monster, I tried but I couldn't break away from the GNC stuff. It is mostly NoX and creatine...and caffine. I drink water the rest of the day...and a beer or two at night.
As for the exhaust manifolds....I can remove them in the car with ease. Same goes for the intake and cylinder head...and oil pan (without cradle drop). I'm planning on swapping to a short ram intake when I add the turbo, so it will be on the window side. The only modification I will have to do will be to the throttle body wiring to move it to the other side of the head.
It looks like I'm going to modify the passenger side decklid to fit just right, but I don't think it will too bad.
Dave

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bmwguru
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quote
Originally posted by FXRseen:

I'm curious, with all your electrical know how are you going to be doing a custom interior or dash swap along with the engine? These things interest me.


I honestly haven't planned out the interior yet. I am leaving my options open in case if I plan on using the VW cluster or VDO gauges. The Fiero gauges won't read properly. The CAN line goes into the VW cluster and the laptop can read the module for the cluster, so I might go that route....I'm really undecided at this point.
Dave

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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

As for the exhaust manifolds....I can remove them in the car with ease. Same goes for the intake and cylinder head...and oil pan (without cradle drop). I'm planning on swapping to a short ram intake when I add the turbo, so it will be on the window side. The only modification I will have to do will be to the throttle body wiring to move it to the other side of the head.
It looks like I'm going to modify the passenger side decklid to fit just right, but I don't think it will too bad.
Dave


Cool. I was hoping you'd say something like that. Looks like the perfect motor for a fiero.

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Report this Post04-02-2008 03:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PC OldskoolClick Here to visit PC Oldskool's HomePageSend a Private Message to PC OldskoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Did you get yourself a Bentley Manual for the MK4? If not, you should... it contains all of the electrical diagrams and mechanical info you will ever need for that motor and gearbox. Runs about $80.

Also, parts4vws.com, germanautoparts.com. and mjmautohaus.com are great places to get good OEM and aftermarket parts for cheap.

http://www.parts4vws.com/ca...PartNumber=LPV800120

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bmwguru
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quote
Originally posted by PC Oldskool:

Did you get yourself a Bentley Manual for the MK4? If not, you should... it contains all of the electrical diagrams and mechanical info you will ever need for that motor and gearbox. Runs about $80.

Also, parts4vws.com, germanautoparts.com. and mjmautohaus.com are great places to get good OEM and aftermarket parts for cheap.

http://www.parts4vws.com/ca...PartNumber=LPV800120


I have the Bentley manuals and Alldata. VW does not provide pinouts for their connectors like other manufacturers. Germanautoparts.com buys their parts from Worldpac....same as me. I do have an account with MJM...that's where I got the Peloquin LSD from. Basically, the diagrams were not the issue...it was the pinouts.
Dave

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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I was mixing weight lifting energy drinks from GNC and Monster drinks....I gave up the Monster, I tried but I couldn't break away from the GNC stuff. It is mostly NoX and creatine...and caffine. I drink water the rest of the day...and a beer or two at night.
As for the exhaust manifolds....I can remove them in the car with ease. Same goes for the intake and cylinder head...and oil pan (without cradle drop). I'm planning on swapping to a short ram intake when I add the turbo, so it will be on the window side. The only modification I will have to do will be to the throttle body wiring to move it to the other side of the head.
It looks like I'm going to modify the passenger side decklid to fit just right, but I don't think it will too bad.
Dave


uhh creatine without tons of water in your system will mess with your stomach and muscles pretty badly. Also if you take it for to long it will shut down your bodys natural creatine production. If you've been taking the creatine for a long period of time you have to ease off it because stopping completely at first would do more damage than good. Also probably not a good mix with beer.

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quote
Originally posted by mtownfiero:


uhh creatine without tons of water in your system will mess with your stomach and muscles pretty badly. Also if you take it for to long it will shut down your bodys natural creatine production. If you've been taking the creatine for a long period of time you have to ease off it because stopping completely at first would do more damage than good. Also probably not a good mix with beer.


creatine monohydrate is worse, you need lots of water because of the retention. Kre-alkyl creatine isn't as bad. Just keep everything in moderation.

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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have the Bentley manuals and Alldata. VW does not provide pinouts for their connectors like other manufacturers. Germanautoparts.com buys their parts from Worldpac....same as me. I do have an account with MJM...that's where I got the Peloquin LSD from. Basically, the diagrams were not the issue...it was the pinouts.
Dave


I didn't realize you had an automotive shop...

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bmwguru
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quote
Originally posted by PC Oldskool:


I didn't realize you had an automotive shop...


yeah, just German cars....and my Fieros. I get a lot of compliments and insults from my customers about my Fieros...as for the insults, I add 10% to their bill..j/k
Dave

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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


yeah, just German cars....and my Fieros. I get a lot of compliments and insults from my customers about my Fieros...as for the insults, I add 10% to their bill..j/k
Dave


Ha! I would too.

I've got a 98 GLX VR6, in need of a rebuild (busted oil pan, oil starvation, now #1 rod bearing )

I'll hopefully start the rebuild next week. Still trying to gather parts...

I've always been a Fiero fan, since I had a remote controlled Fiero when I was in 1st grade. (Yes remote, not radio.... it had a cord from the controller to the car!) Combining a Fiero with a VR6 is such a great idea. I can't wait to see it with a turbo!

Are you building the turbo kit yourself?

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bmwguru
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quote
Originally posted by PC Oldskool:


Are you building the turbo kit yourself?


YES. All the aftermarket kits are overpriced and not quite what I want. I'd have to lose the trunk to mount the turbo with THEIR kits. I figure that I can either go up or down with the turbo...just not back.

I spent a few hours today with the swap and tested the wiring. The dash lights up and the engine cranks, has spark, pulse and just needs a tank of gas. I still have many hours to go, but not that many until it runs. I still have to mount the gas pedal and make the harness to the junction for the fly by wire. I also eliminated the fusible links and replaced them with the Jetta battery fusebox which is basically fusible links in fuse form for the major components.
Dave

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Report this Post04-03-2008 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PC OldskoolClick Here to visit PC Oldskool's HomePageSend a Private Message to PC OldskoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

For your consideration: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3741894

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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


YES. All the aftermarket kits are overpriced and not quite what I want. I'd have to lose the trunk to mount the turbo with THEIR kits. I figure that I can either go up or down with the turbo...just not back.

I spent a few hours today with the swap and tested the wiring. The dash lights up and the engine cranks, has spark, pulse and just needs a tank of gas. I still have many hours to go, but not that many until it runs. I still have to mount the gas pedal and make the harness to the junction for the fly by wire. I also eliminated the fusible links and replaced them with the Jetta battery fusebox which is basically fusible links in fuse form for the major components.
Dave


Good to hear you are so close to firing it up!

Is the signal from the pedal just a variable voltage or is it coded?

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bmwguru
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quote
Originally posted by AP2k:


Good to hear you are so close to firing it up!

Is the signal from the pedal just a variable voltage or is it coded?


it is coded via the VAG software during the basic settings. I'm crossing my fingers hoping that the throttle body is good. If I remember correctly, I believe a new one is around $800. I have two more at the shop, so the odds one of them works is in my favor.
I'm hoping to have the car off the lift by this weekend.
I figure I still have about 20 hours left on this swap. Honestly, it isn't so bad this far, but the next phase will be a fun one.
The shifter didn't go as planned. The VW shifter didn't work, so I am stuck trying to modify the Fiero shifter. First off, the four speed cables were way too short, so I picked up a set of Isuzu cables from Rodney Dickman. Secondly, the select throw is reversed between the Fiero shifter and the VW transmission. So in other words, when I move the shifter left, the Fiero shifter pushes the cable towards the rear of the car. The VW trans needs it pulled. I thought the VW shifter would work (it does fit into the tunnel area), but it just doesn't without major mods that I feel are an unnecessary waste of time. Archie gave me the solution to my problem after I spent hours making different shifters not work. I'll post up more details after I finish putting the shifter together next week.
The reason why the VW shifter would have worked is that in the Jetta, the shifter is behind the trans and it grabs the trans from behind. In the Fiero the shifter is in front of the trans and grabs the trans from the front. No mods to the shifter are needed, just a different transmission bracket. It seemed easy on paper, but didn't work out.
Dave
ps....about the turbo....don't ever buy a used turbo unless you see it in person. I've never seen a good one come out of a private sale over the internet (except the German wrecking yards that have to give a warranty). Just my opinion....I'm sure you can find a good used turbo online, I just don't have that kind of luck.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 04-03-2008).]

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PC Oldskool
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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
The shifter didn't go as planned. The VW shifter didn't work, so I am stuck trying to modify the Fiero shifter. First off, the four speed cables were way too short, so I picked up a set of Isuzu cables from Rodney Dickman. Secondly, the select throw is reversed between the Fiero shifter and the VW transmission. So in other words, when I move the shifter left, the Fiero shifter pushes the cable towards the rear of the car. The VW trans needs it pulled. I thought the VW shifter would work (it does fit into the tunnel area), but it just doesn't without major mods that I feel are an unnecessary waste of time. Archie gave me the solution to my problem after I spent hours making different shifters not work. I'll post up more details after I finish putting the shifter together next week.
The reason why the VW shifter would have worked is that in the Jetta, the shifter is behind the trans and it grabs the trans from behind. In the Fiero the shifter is in front of the trans and grabs the trans from the front. No mods to the shifter are needed, just a different transmission bracket. It seemed easy on paper, but didn't work out.
Dave
ps....about the turbo....don't ever buy a used turbo unless you see it in person. I've never seen a good one come out of a private sale over the internet (except the German wrecking yards that have to give a warranty). Just my opinion....I'm sure you can find a good used turbo online, I just don't have that kind of luck.



Thanks for the advice on the turbo... yeah I would be weary about buying the turbo itself, but piecing together a used kit is always an option.

About the shifter (I know you said you found a solution, but you might want to check this out anyway...). I found a Mid Engine VR6 GTI build thread on the Vortex, and apparently they used lengthened cables with the VR6 shifter. HERE is a link to the page where they start working on the shifter/cables. Scroll down until you see pictures. I didn't get a time to search further, but I'm sure they gave an explanation. You might want to contact them for some information.

Good luck! I can't wait to see this beast on the road.

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bmwguru
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That's the mod I didn't want to do. They flipped the shifter select and still ran the cables from the back. I want a cleaner look and I want to run the cables from the front. Hopefully, it will work out the way that I want, but we'll cross that bridge next week. That is the only part of the swap that didn't pan out as expected. Oh well, it could have been worse
Dave

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bmwguru
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Report this Post04-13-2008 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have been working on the swap, but my schedule has been pretty full to take pics and post them. I wired up the fly by wire pedal and made a mount to bolt it in place of the Fiero pedal. I also made a computer mount for the Jetta ECM. The battery cables have been run and I head the engine crank this far.
The fuel pump issue was kicking my ass for a little bit, but I got that resolved. I really wish I went with a stand alone ECM and called it a day, but I wanted to challenge myself and see if I could get the VW factory computer to work in the Pontiac. Anyway, the Jetta fuel pump relay kicks on to prime the engine when the door is opened via the body control module. The SRS system disables the fuel pump in the event of a crash, too. So, The CAN BUS system is kind of kicking me in the head a little bit because the ECM doesn't function properly without the instrument cluster.
I am very tempted to pull the wiring and run a stand alone as I mentioned, but I'm not giving up yet. I knew that the wiring would give me some issues. I've swapped in a few VR6 engines before, but they all went in VW's, so it was pretty easy.
Also, my gold Fiero is getting kind of whupped for only having 60,000 miles on it. I already have the swap in mind for that one...and it will make this swap look like a walk in the park. Yes, it will be a Euro engine.
I'm not expecting much progress on the VR6 this week. I just received a bunch of new parts for my orange V8 that I want to install before Carlisle and I'm shopping for a new set of heads and Archie's aluminum flywheel for it as well.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 04-13-2008).]

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PICS!

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bmwguru
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I'll be posting some pics later this week if I can get five minutes. The good news is I heard the VR6 Fiero start up and run this morning. The fly by wire throttle works perfectly. I apparantly missed a wire in the diagram when I was doing the ECM wiring.
I still have a ways to go on this....the cluster, exhaust, shifter etc.
Dave

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This thread is useless without burnout videos

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Bump...

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Report this Post04-23-2008 03:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VonovClick Here to Email VonovSend a Private Message to VonovEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

On the clutch/brake bleeder thingie...you can make your own, using a pump-type garden sprayer; just replace the nozzle on the sprayer hose with a threaded 3/8" plumbing fitting (the kind that's barbed on one end and threaded on the other) and drill and tap a spare brake and/or clutch filler cap for the fitting. Fill 1/3 to 1/2 full with brake fluid, put the cap on the reservoir, pump up the sprayer unit, open your bleeder fittings one at a time until no more bubbles are seen, and you're in business. Would that I had had someone show me that trick when I was 17, lol...

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bmwguru
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I had to take some time off the VR6 for a few reasons. First, I hosted an event of Fieros and MINI Coopers at my shop on Saturday. My shop had to be cleaned enough for about 30-40 people to be able to hang out there and not get greasy. Second, my V8 Fiero is going out to Carlisle and I wanted it to be perfect for the event. I'm hoping to be able to replace the cylinder heads and swap in an aluminum flywheel before the trip. I also want to dyno it before and after the parts install.
I also have a few customers engine jobs that need to be done to pay the bills.
I will be back on the VR6 swap in full force once the Carlisle trip is over. It won't make it to Carlisle this year, but I am hoping to drive it to the 25th.
Dave

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Report this Post04-29-2008 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ok, I thought I was going to take a month off the VR6 swap, but I ran short on parts for customer's cars today. So, I wound up making the CAN line and K line harness. I designed it in a way that it would plug into the Fiero's factory harness using the VW connectors. The CAN and K line are the lines that the various computers communicate with each other on. In my particular swap, the harness isn't really used other than communication with the VW laptop, but I wanted to see if it was possible to make this fully OBDII compatible for diagnosis purposes as well as emissions legal. I found this to be possible. It is also possible to be able to run an automatic transmission in this swap and have it fully computer controlled with the VW software. Basically, I want this car to be able to be serviced by any VW tech.

For today, I hooked up my VAG software and was able to see live data, program the throttle adaptations with the fly by wire and read and clear codes. There is a programming issue with the engine control module that i have to work out. I discovered that this module was not from the donor car, so the coding does not match. I'm planning on reprogramming the ECM later this week.
The main reason why I am going through all this trouble rather than run a stand alone ECM is that for the TDI swap in the future, I want it to be able to function like a VW, not a Fiero with a diesel engine. When I add the turboto this swap, I'll most likely be removing a lot of what I am doing and run a stand alone.
The next phase will be making an exhaust system so that I can post up a video. I'll post more pics once the interior wiring is all loomed up. It looks like a complete mess right now.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 04-29-2008).]

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Winkie
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Report this Post04-29-2008 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WinkieClick Here to visit Winkie's HomePageSend a Private Message to WinkieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Are you able to get it to run? Or does it still only run for a second?

Ryan

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bmwguru
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Report this Post04-29-2008 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It starts and stalls. I thought it was the fuel pump relay that I had to rewire to work with the Fiero's wiring. That wasn't the issue. Then I figured it was the throttle module not being programmed, but when that was programmed today I could see the ECM was blocked due to being from a different Jetta. I have to read the coding from the cluster and then program the computer and it should stay running at that point...so the tricky part is over...I think.
Dave

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quad4powered
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Report this Post04-29-2008 11:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for quad4poweredClick Here to Email quad4poweredSend a Private Message to quad4poweredEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have just read this post from the begining and am now caught up. What you are doing is an act of engineering genius. Keep up the good work.

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Gokart Mozart
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Report this Post04-30-2008 05:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gokart MozartClick Here to visit Gokart Mozart's HomePageSend a Private Message to Gokart MozartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Who gets to choose the color of this one?

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 04-30-2008).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post04-30-2008 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Joey has already picked out the color for this car, but after her naming my orange Fiero, I may tell the painter to go a whole different route.
Dave

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Vonov
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Report this Post05-01-2008 12:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VonovClick Here to Email VonovSend a Private Message to VonovEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

Joey has already picked out the color for this car, but after her naming my orange Fiero, I may tell the painter to go a whole different route.
Dave

I can see it now...two tone, same design as the "GOF," but done in purple and cream, lol...

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Saxman
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Report this Post05-01-2008 12:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How about rainbows?

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anonymity
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Report this Post05-01-2008 06:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for anonymityClick Here to visit anonymity's HomePageSend a Private Message to anonymityEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm not that kind of girly girl!!!!
Joey

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Richjk21
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Report this Post05-01-2008 07:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Richjk21Send a Private Message to Richjk21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Saxman:

How about rainbows?



Or Unicorns ... yeah that's it Unicorns ...... it'll give the GOF cart a run for it's money

Rich

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gt88norm
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Report this Post05-01-2008 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gt88normSend a Private Message to gt88normEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How about flocked (sp?), . . . You know, that velvety stuff that was popular for about 3 mo. during 1971 (or was that '72) hard to remember 'cause I was really 'there'!

Norm

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bmwguru
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Report this Post05-03-2008 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I posted my immobilizer dilemma on a private European technician forum and I think I have found my solution. The 2000 Jetta uses the instrument cluster as the immobilizer and there is no way to fake it even with the Jetta's cluster. It would need to see the Jetta key in the ignition lock and then send the signal to the cluster to allow the ECM to run the engine. Even by using the factory cluster, I would still need to use the steering column and key, but that isn't in my plans.
I found a company that specializes in VW Immobilizer deletion and simulates the signal inside the ECM to allow the engine to run. I should have used a 1997 VR6 and I could have bypassed the Immobilizer by connecting two wires, but I really like the way the AFP engine runs with the variable intake. I just got done modding a customer's VR6 and I am always impressed how the smallest mods show the biggest results with the VR6. I guess that's how it got the nickname "VW's muscle engine".
I won't be doing much more with this swap this month because I need to have my GOF ready for the Carlisle show. It will be inside this year....yay!
If I do make some progress between now and then I'll post some more pics.
Dave

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Vonov
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Report this Post05-15-2008 04:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VonovClick Here to Email VonovSend a Private Message to VonovEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bumpage...

How did I go so long without partaking in VR6 goodness...?
Bmwguru, I can't remember the displacement on your swap/build...but I think it's funny as hell that the VR6 displaces 2.8 liters.
If any Fieronistas ask, you can truthfully tell them it's a 2.8...of course the sound of the thing revving to about seven grand *might* give the game away...

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