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The Official VR6 Engine Swap by bmwguru
Started on: 12-16-2007 01:38 PM
Replies: 727 (103403 views)
Last post by: bmwguru on 08-02-2015 04:21 AM
AkursedX
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Report this Post12-26-2007 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AkursedXClick Here to Email AkursedXSend a Private Message to AkursedXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My daily driver is an '07 Fahrenheit GTI and prior to that was an '05 GLI so I've been around VW's for a few years now. I have learned alot from Vortex and have made some cool friends on MichiganVW.org. I've learned quite a bit about VW's in a this short time and I find this swap really intriguing. I have mentioned it to a bunch of fellow dubbers and they were really intrigued by the idea. As for myself, I think this is an awesome swap! I had dreamt about a 1.8t in my Fiero, or now, the 2.0t with a DSG tranny in a Fiero! But I know I would never have the know-how or ability. I kinda wish it would have been a 24v VR6 from an R32. That is the sexiest sounding passenger vehicle motor on the planet, but I do understand why the 12v would be a better idea.

Anyways, I will be keeping a close eye on this swap, who knows, if I decide on another Fiero, I might have to consider this swap! Oh, and as for the 12v VR6, www.autotech.com has a huge sale that lasts through the end of the year (20-30% off of everything!)

------------------
'88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs 12.95@106.1mph

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Philphine
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Report this Post12-26-2007 05:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PhilphineClick Here to Email PhilphineSend a Private Message to PhilphineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

don't remember reading it, but are you gonna weight the drivetrain once you have it out? just wondering how it compares to the other swaps.

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bmwguru
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Report this Post12-26-2007 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I priced out just a R32 drivetrain-engine, six speed trans and wiring with ecu.....$8,000 used no warranty. Trust me...that was my engine of choice. The 24v from a '03 Jetta....the mods are way too expensive. The AAA VR6 is just too old school for me. Very cheap to come by, and definitely a good budget swap, but I really like the APF engine.
My plans are to take the car for a dyno run when it is all done in the Phase 1 stage. At the same time, I'll see if I can twist my friend's arm into bringing his stock VR6 2000 Jetta 5 speed along to compare runs. The donor car is an identical match to his. I want to see the slight mods I am doing to see the gains.
I'm not sure of what the weight of The VR6 is, but I can lift a fully assembled engine with accessories off the ground a few inches. It is a cast iron block, though.
Dave
ps.....if all goes well, I might have something to update tomorrow after work.

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bmwguru
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Report this Post12-27-2007 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

We have progress.
I removed the drivetrain from the Jetta today. I also set the Fiero in the shop to be ready for the drivetrain removal.




Upon removal of the transmission, I found that someone was "in here". I found a $480.00 5.5lb aluminum flywheel and brand new clutch. I wanted to use a 10lb flywheel for the turbo, but I'll see how the 5.5lb one is at first. Worst case, I can swap in out in a few hours. The stock flywheel weighs in at 20lbs.

Also, someone had replaced the front crank damper with a lightweight pulley.


The plan for today was to inspect and prep the transmission. Tomorrow, I will check out the timing chains. I'm assuming that they are new being that the cylinder head is new and the flywheel is new. The timing chains are behind the flywheel.
Here are some before and after shots of the transmission.


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bmwguru
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Report this Post12-27-2007 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here is a tally sheet thus far...
Donor car $2550.00
Fuel/tolls $200.00
Chemicals/paint $10.00
Invested labor 4.5 hours
.
Dave

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AutoTech
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Report this Post12-27-2007 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AutoTechClick Here to Email AutoTechSend a Private Message to AutoTechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Holy cow! 5.5lbs, thats light! You must have gotten a little excited seeing these cool parts on it already, I know I would have.

What did you use to clean the trans? Looks very nice.

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bmwguru
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Report this Post12-27-2007 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by AutoTech:

Holy cow! 5.5lbs, thats light! You must have gotten a little excited seeing these cool parts on it already, I know I would have.

What did you use to clean the trans? Looks very nice.


yeah, I was very happy. It saved me a few days for the flywheel ordering. As for the trans....I used parts washer and a brush and cleaned it with Brakeleen and shop air. Aluminum engine paint to finish. All trans seals looked good, so they were left alone.
Dave

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Saxman
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Report this Post12-27-2007 11:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That's a good job for one day! Dayum, the trans looks good! The first thing I thought when I saw the upgraded parts was, "Did the previous owner thrash it?"

I sure wish I were closer to learn some things from the guru...

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bmwguru
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Report this Post12-28-2007 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here is a little lunch update. I removed the timing covers only to discover that the engine has brand new timing chains and rails....even new camshaft gears.

The only thing replaced at this point was the upper timing chain tensioner....I didn't think that the one installed met my level of standards. Also the valve cover gasket and rear crankshaft seal was replaced at this time. After lunch, I'm going to reinstall the transmission and swap on the correct oil pan. The engine has the oil pan from a 1998 GTI AAA VR6. I don't know why, but I'd rather have the aluminum pan from the AFP engine and I have an extra one here.
Here are some shots of my "VR6 specialist" working on her Fiero's soon to be engine.




and a butt shot.....

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AkursedX
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Report this Post12-28-2007 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AkursedXClick Here to Email AkursedXSend a Private Message to AkursedXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

The engine has the oil pan from a 1998 GTI AAA VR6. I don't know why, but I'd rather have the aluminum pan from the AFP engine and I have an extra one here.


Actually, from the pictures, the pan you have on looks like an all-steel pan. I believe this pan was considered to be superior to the aluminum pan due the aluminum pan being very brittle and breaking alot. I have seen a good number of VW's with broken pans. That being said, I don't see a switch back to the aluminum pan being that much of an issue due to being swapped into a Fiero.

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bmwguru
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Report this Post12-28-2007 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The steel pan was only used on the Jetta III cars. I like the aluminum pans better. The only reason it would crack is if you let's say run over a cinder block in the road....oh wait. That's how I got the idea to swap in the VR6. I had to replace an engine because of that reason. In the Fiero, I'm not worried....The rear frame should protect it.
Here are the last pics of the year. Shop's closed.
Old steel oil pan

Aluminum replacement

Me putting the transmission back on.

The butt shot for Saxman....lol.

Here is where we leave off. Next step is to make a power steering pump delete/or idler replacement pulley. Then it's install time.

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Saxman
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Report this Post12-28-2007 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote

Originally posted by bmwguru:
The butt shot for Saxman....lol.



I need to work on a suitable non-offensive re"butt"le. Maybe I can get my wife to help...

HAPPY NEW YEAR YOU TWO!

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 12-29-2007).]

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blackrams
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Report this Post12-29-2007 07:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I can see this swap becoming very popular. I've spoken with others about doing a VW swap in the past. I'm happy to see someone taking the challenge on. I am interested to know what the weight differences are between the "stock" OEM engine/tranny combo and what you're going to end up with.

------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-01-2008 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I've been thinking about my upcoming week. I might take the transmission back off and install a Peloquin LSD. I have the opportunity to pick up the diff at a good price....should I??? The diff comes with a lifetime warranty, too.
It is a lot more involved to change out the diff in a VW transmission than a Muncie. I've done the Muncie speedo gear swaps in less than an hour after the transmission is out. To do the VW, all the gears must be pressed off the shafts to get at the differential and then pressed back on. I'm not a trans builder, but I feel that I can do the job.
Also, I have to pull the valve cover off again. I am wondering if the cams are the stock ones or performance. I am wondering since I saw the port and polish, light flywheel and other performance add ons.
Dave

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AkursedX
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Report this Post01-01-2008 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AkursedXClick Here to Email AkursedXSend a Private Message to AkursedXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I've been thinking about my upcoming week. I might take the transmission back off and install a Peloquin LSD. I have the opportunity to pick up the diff at a good price....should I??? The diff comes with a lifetime warranty, too.



Do it! I know there's alot of work involved, but I would think an LSD would make a huge difference in performance. And if you can get a good deal on the Peloquin, it makes it that much more enticing. I've only driven a FWD with a limited-slip, and it made a huge difference in performance, particularly in cornering. I would imagine it would help a Fiero out immensely as well.

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 01-01-2008).]

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Austrian Import
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Report this Post01-01-2008 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Is that a torsen type LSD?

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gt88norm
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Report this Post01-02-2008 04:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for gt88normSend a Private Message to gt88normEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
To do the VW, all the gears must be pressed off the shafts to get at the differential and then pressed back on. I'm not a trans builder, but I feel that I can do the job.
Dave


Dry-ice and a toaster oven ;^) Just kinda kiddin'!

Norm

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-02-2008 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Austrian Import:

Is that a torsen type LSD?


yes, it is.

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Austrian Import
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Report this Post01-03-2008 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Then yea, by all means..

Torsens are awesome!!!*
At least on my dad's Audi they're nearly indestructible, don't wear out like clutch type, and are essentially maintenance free.
_____
* downside: they don't work well (at all) in 0 traction situations. i.e: ice. (but I'd assume Fieros+ice=very scary anyways )

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-10-2008 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sorry to have the thread come to a dead stop. My shop was overbooked this week...and it's not over yet. There's just two of us working on the cars and in four days we got over $20,000 in repairs done. Not too shabby.
Come Friday evening....I'm pulling out the Grey Goose.
Saturday, I'm going to resume the VR6 swap work.
Dave

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Saxman
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Report this Post01-10-2008 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SaxmanClick Here to visit Saxman's HomePageClick Here to Email SaxmanSend a Private Message to SaxmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I need to come up and work for you when I retire this year! (Of course, I would have a LOT to learn...)

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-12-2008 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I came in for a few hours to prep the Fiero. Here are a few shots......


ready to come out....


damn, the trans fluid is just so clean.....a well maintained car.


nothing was cut...except for the wiring to the passenger side connector in the engine compartment next to the battery....the 1/4" securing bolt stripped out. I'll go through the wiring and solder in a new connector


it's out......


FOR SALE..........(engine, trans, wiring only.)

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 01-12-2008).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-12-2008 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I measured the GM 2.8 end to end with transmission and got 36". I measured the VW 2.8 and got 33.5"
This should be easier than I thought.
Dave

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Andreas DK
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Report this Post01-12-2008 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Andreas DKClick Here to Email Andreas DKSend a Private Message to Andreas DKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

you should get a HGP or a EIP Bi-turbo set on..! then it makes about 550hk and can easly make more..! :-P

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Report this Post01-13-2008 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I measured the GM 2.8 end to end with transmission and got 36". I measured the VW 2.8 and got 33.5"
This should be easier than I thought.
Dave


I wondered how that was going to work out.

I don't know anything about VWs, so I don't have anything useful to add, but it's quite interesting.
You've got our attention.


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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-13-2008 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The way the shop is booked up, it looks like I'm going to be spending a few nights a week and one day on a weekend on this project.
It's funny. My shop's workload was average when I bought my GT for the V8 swap. As soon as I pulled the engine, I was so busy I couldn't even look at the V8 project for over a year. As soon as it was done, we were slow for a whole year. Now, I start on this one and I have more work than I know what to do with.
Maybe I should always have a project car in the shop at all times.
If this swap goes well, a TDI swap will be in order as well as a built R32 swap...
I may just pull out the V8 and put in the R32 into that car.
BUT first, let's see how this one goes. The TDI swap will be done on someone elses car. I think it will be an easy swap, but if I buy any more Fieros, my wife will kill me. Also, not to get ahead of myself, but I have a few slight mods for the TDI swap that I do to customer's cars to get rid of the few quirks they have...(not performance related).
Dave
ps....also there was one other thing I had done to the VR6 when it was apart for inspection that I did not mention. I'm not going to tell you what it is because I sell it to my customers as an upgrade. It is small, but you can feel the difference when accelerating, but I keep that in house. The dyno should show the difference.

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Report this Post01-13-2008 04:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dsnoverSend a Private Message to dsnoverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

As the owner of a 2000 TDI Jetta, I'd LOVE to see a TDI swap. I have 220k miles on my TDI. I love the engine, and I think in a lighter car, would be even better. One of the other thoughts that I had was swapping the brakes from the 99.5 + Jetta onto a Fiero. The Jetta has the same bolt pattern, and the rotors are pretty decent size.

-Darryl

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HC
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Report this Post01-13-2008 06:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HCClick Here to visit HC's HomePageSend a Private Message to HCEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow man, your making history right here... Whatever you do goes in the books.

I could only dream of a Tiptronic Fiero... Or a Quattro...

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HC
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Report this Post01-13-2008 06:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HCClick Here to visit HC's HomePageSend a Private Message to HCEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

And a + for you sir!

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Report this Post01-14-2008 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-14-2009).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-14-2008 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Yep, I too am holding out for a TDI swap, I've been wanting to do one for more than 5 years now but don't know where to start.

How expensive are TDI drivetrains to get ahold of? What years are good? I want the 5spd, of course.

JazzMan


With the TDI swap, you can get away with buying just the engine, trans, computer and wiring. It is all very simple and self contained. You can get a decent TDI drivetrain from a 2000 Jetta for somewhere between $3500-$5000
Dave

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foxgapfiero
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Report this Post01-15-2008 07:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for foxgapfieroClick Here to Email foxgapfieroSend a Private Message to foxgapfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I dropped off a printed copy of this thread to a friend of mine, Jim Mamana. His company is called MMI Concepts here in Bangor PA. He builds a lot of real nasty VW's and has a VR6 drag car. He is really interested in what you are doing.

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Report this Post01-15-2008 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BtotheBClick Here to visit BtotheB's HomePageClick Here to Email BtotheBSend a Private Message to BtotheBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Yep, I too am holding out for a TDI swap, I've been wanting to do one for more than 5 years now but don't know where to start.

How expensive are TDI drivetrains to get ahold of? What years are good? I want the 5spd, of course.

JazzMan


I'd stick with the 99.5-2003 ALH engines. Best for aftermarket as well as economy. Spend a couple grand - VNT17, PP764 nozzles, larger intercooler, larger downpipe and a tune and you're at 140hp/280tq... and still getting 50MPG. I'd love to have that in a Fiero...

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-15-2008 09:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by BtotheB:


I'd stick with the 99.5-2003 ALH engines. Best for aftermarket as well as economy. Spend a couple grand - VNT17, PP764 nozzles, larger intercooler, larger downpipe and a tune and you're at 140hp/280tq... and still getting 50MPG. I'd love to have that in a Fiero...


The ALH is the most common to come by. If you plan on maintaining it yourself, you will need the VAG-COM.
Dave

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crytical point
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Report this Post01-15-2008 02:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crytical pointClick Here to Email crytical pointSend a Private Message to crytical pointEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

make a kit and I will buy!

this is by far the best swap EVER in a fiero

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-15-2008 03:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by crytical point:

make a kit and I will buy!

this is by far the best swap EVER in a fiero


bring me the car, and I will install........let me finish and test this one first.
Dave

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JazzMan
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Report this Post01-15-2008 06:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-14-2009).]

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FIERO1985
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Report this Post01-15-2008 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIERO1985Click Here to Email FIERO1985Send a Private Message to FIERO1985Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am a vw tech here in columbus and I am very closely watching this thread, I have 3 buddies who all have turbo vr6 gti's on is bored to a 3.0 . This is a real cool swap cant wait to see some more progress pics

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-17-2008 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This VR6 will be getting a turbo this summer. I'm not really happy with any kits out there. I'd like to try and run over 25lbs of boost with some slicks and see what this thing will do. Obviously, a cage and other safety measures will have to be met first.
I prepped the cradle this morning and I'm going to start fitting the engine today.
Here is a pic of the aluminum cradle bushings from John Stricker. I should have more progress at the end of the day. Also, note the difference between the heavy Fiero axle and the VW axle (it is half the weight).
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 01-17-2008).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-17-2008 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are some pics as we break for lunch. Initial measurements were exactly as I had planned. There is plenty of room for the turbo manifold down the road....always plan ahead.
Dave



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