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The Turbo 3500 F23 swap by ericjon262
Started on: 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
Replies: 409 (18514 views)
Last post by: ericjon262 on 01-09-2019 02:22 AM
Joseph Upson
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Report this Post02-10-2013 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
you have to manually change the Map sensor values. My main concern right now, is that I have a 3 bar MAP sensor, and I'm told that some of the PCMs similar to what I'm using can only read up to 2 bar... Tiny tuner let me input the values for the 3 bar though, so we will see what happens when I plug everything in and program it... I'll hook the sensor up to my air compressor and run a scan (with the engine off) and see if it stops reading at 2 BAR. if I have to, I'll import the L67 values for it's 2 BAR, and get a 2 BAR MAP sensor.


I find it hard to believe it's that simple, I get the idea of scaling the MAP values which basically requires the natural aspiration portion be condensed into half of the MAP table for a 2 bar, however it stands to reason that you would need to do this for every MAP associated table in the code or risk problems with fueling and spark advance as a result. I've run boost many times in the past with a 1 bar MAP sensor, but I wouldn't dare try it with a 3 bar MAP in non boost related code, the reason being the 3 bar MAP has even less resolution than the 2 bar MAP. Make sure you are working with someone that has succeeded at doing this with the code.

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Report this Post02-10-2013 04:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

it's going to require the tables to be re-tuned for sure, that will happen once the road tune starts.

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Report this Post02-10-2013 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You really need expansion joints between the logs and the turbo. I did not use them on my first exhaust and each heat/cool cycle would bend the exhaust and turbo until things started breaking.

This is the 2nd attempt. It works great now.


This is how I found them in the junkyard. They are found on crossover pipes on front wheel drive GM cars.

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Report this Post02-10-2013 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I hope I can fit them in the space I have... I was planning on it, then I changed my mind, then I started thinking about adding them again...

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Report this Post02-10-2013 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are the changes I have made to the 3400 bin so far...

1 imported LS1 MAF(dhp)
2 Change IFR (DHP)(old/new)insert percent in DHP
3 trans type 0(manual) (tt)
4 always use default baro set to 1 (TT)
5 set default max map to 300 (tt)
6 set map sensor scaler to 300 (TT)
7 set map sensor offset to -11.25 (TT)
8 number of cat tests per trip set to 0 (TT)
9 set p0135 p0137 p0138 p0140 p0141 p0401 and p1406 to no reporting (3) (DHP)
10 set high RPM threshold to 8500 RPM(TT)
11 set torque abuse drive injector disable to 0 under tq mngmnt>fuel(tt)
12 high rpm fuel cut set to 8500(TT)
13 set tq abuse pn inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
14 set tq abuse drv inj dsabl to 0 (TT)
15 set TCS inj dsbl to 0 on all TCS levels (TT)
16 set dsbl all inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
17 set dsbl 1 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
18 set dsbl 2 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
19 set TCS nbl to 300 (TT)
20 set tq diff score inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
21 TCS sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
22 set min rpm for mph shtff to 9000 (TT)
23 TCS xtr sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
24 tq abuse spd nbl set to 255 (TT)
25 tq abs sprk rtrd set to 0 (TT)
26 tq diff scr rtrd set to 0 (TT)
27 tq abs rpm nbl set to 9000(TT)
28 tq abs TP nbl set to 104/105(TT)
29 EGR air temp dsbl set to 300 (tt)
30 turned off all auto trans related codes(P703, and P705-p785)(DHP)
31 dsbl trans tq redux (TT)
32 bypass extra spk rtrd set to 00 (yes)(TT)
33 dsbl dfco MPH set to 255(TT)
34 dsbl dfco mph CM set to 255 (TT)
35 dfco nbl CT set to 200
36 AIR pmp nbl CT set to 200

Next I'm going to match the P/N idle and RPM settings to the same speeds as the drive settings, because the car won't have a park position.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post02-11-2013 12:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

hudini:

what size pipe was used in the GM crossovers?

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post02-11-2013 05:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Buy the size you need, they're available from the same place you purchased your tubing. Aftermarket expansion joints are usually sturdier than OE because they also have a braided steel mesh around the bellows. Although GM has done a better job with them by adding a sheet metal support underneath, the Turbo Grand Prix bellows had a history of cracking and coming apart. If you want to use OE which I've never had a problem with like what's pictured above, get the crossover from the 3500 and up cars as they are larger than what was placed on the 3400, ~1.75-2.00" if needed, I didn't measure it. You may also find the better joint in the exhaust pipe of some imports as they are usually braided also.

It's 4" long, the camera is bending the picture in auto focus, it also has an inner interlocking liner for smooth airflow through it as opposed to exposed louvers.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-11-2013).]

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Report this Post02-11-2013 05:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Here are the changes I have made to the 3400 bin so far...

1 imported LS1 MAF(dhp)
2 Change IFR (DHP)(old/new)insert percent in DHP
3 trans type 0(manual) (tt)
4 always use default baro set to 1 (TT)
5 set default max map to 300 (tt)
6 set map sensor scaler to 300 (TT)
7 set map sensor offset to -11.25 (TT)
8 number of cat tests per trip set to 0 (TT)
9 set p0135 p0137 p0138 p0140 p0141 p0401 and p1406 to no reporting (3) (DHP)
10 set high RPM threshold to 8500 RPM(TT)
11 set torque abuse drive injector disable to 0 under tq mngmnt>fuel(tt)
12 high rpm fuel cut set to 8500(TT)
13 set tq abuse pn inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
14 set tq abuse drv inj dsabl to 0 (TT)
15 set TCS inj dsbl to 0 on all TCS levels (TT)
16 set dsbl all inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
17 set dsbl 1 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
18 set dsbl 2 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
19 set TCS nbl to 300 (TT)
20 set tq diff score inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
21 TCS sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
22 set min rpm for mph shtff to 9000 (TT)
23 TCS xtr sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
24 tq abuse spd nbl set to 255 (TT)
25 tq abs sprk rtrd set to 0 (TT)
26 tq diff scr rtrd set to 0 (TT)
27 tq abs rpm nbl set to 9000(TT)
28 tq abs TP nbl set to 104/105(TT)
29 EGR air temp dsbl set to 300 (tt)
30 turned off all auto trans related codes(P703, and P705-p785)(DHP)
31 dsbl trans tq redux (TT)
32 bypass extra spk rtrd set to 00 (yes)(TT)
33 dsbl dfco MPH set to 255(TT)
34 dsbl dfco mph CM set to 255 (TT)
35 dfco nbl CT set to 200
36 AIR pmp nbl CT set to 200

Next I'm going to match the P/N idle and RPM settings to the same speeds as the drive settings, because the car won't have a park position.


As much struggling as I have done over the years figuring out problems with adjusting boosted 8F, OBD I code, and I'm still learning, I have to say you are juggling broken bottles here. This is a step beyond unorthodox, bordering on the Twilight Zone of tuning. I mistakenly entered the wrong values under PE in the first tune of my engine and crippled it before I ever saw what it could really do. If there is a code mask that you can use designed for boost that's what you should use as this is too risky.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I am aware that the bellows are available in the aftermarket, the problem I am running into is space, I don' t have a 4" strait run that I can put a flex joint in, on either bank... so I am trying to find a pair in 2" that are under 3" in length. the GM ones look like they may work, and if the do, I'll see if the dealer can get a pair for me.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


As much struggling as I have done over the years figuring out problems with adjusting boosted 8F, OBD I code, and I'm still learning, I have to say you are juggling broken bottles here. This is a step beyond unorthodox, bordering on the Twilight Zone of tuning. I mistakenly entered the wrong values under PE in the first tune of my engine and crippled it before I ever saw what it could really do. If there is a code mask that you can use designed for boost that's what you should use as this is too risky.


the PCM I am using was also used by 3800SC motors, and the bulk of the changes that I have made pertain to running a manual transmission instead of an automatic. things like making park and neutral act the same way as drive does, and removing fuel cutoffs for RPM/Speed. I haven't begun digging into the fuel and spark tables yet. I'll start on those once the engine is running, and just take it one step at a time.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I am aware that the bellows are available in the aftermarket, the problem I am running into is space, I don' t have a 4" strait run that I can put a flex joint in, on either bank... so I am trying to find a pair in 2" that are under 3" in length. the GM ones look like they may work, and if the do, I'll see if the dealer can get a pair for me.


That's a lot of money to throw away at the dealer for a crossover to cut up as that's the only way you'll be able to get it. Your crossover being as long as it is will probably be fine as it is because the extra length of pipe allows for some flexibility, adding one bellows joint would probably more than suffice. If you look at Hudini's crossover you'll see that it is short and has more of a linear opposing expansion arrangement, where yours is more of a scissor type arrangement.

You don't have to have a perfectly straight section, you can get a bellows one size up that slips over the main pipe with enough room to accomodate a little bit of a curve, cut a small space in the main pipe or better yet make it a slip joint which GM did with some or all of their bellows then weld the bellows ends to the main pipe enclosing the slip/expansion area.

Those joints will be more crucial if you wrap your exhaust, I discourage you from doing that in favor of shielding or some type of heat blanket. I've made a number of mild steel exhaust manifolds using 14 ga steel and they don't do well over the long hall wrapped behind a turbo.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm wanting to have the entire hotside ceramic coated depending on time/cost, but we'll see.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaron88Send a Private Message to aaron88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is an FYI. You may already know about this but I thought I'd add it in here. I discovered on two transmissions that had exhaust running close to the aluminum casting. One was a stock Fiero with a stainless steel exhaust with no shielding. The other was a turbo setup, again no shielding. In both those cases the aluminum bellhousing had spider cracks all over it. My conclusion was that the heat cycles were too much for the aluminum which is very week at high temperatures. The cracking had not caused a failure but I could only assume that eventually it would have.

This is why manufacturers use double walled tubing on cross overs and a lot of the time on the headers too. To keep the heat away from the aluminum. Especially the transmission which does not have cooling in the bell housing.


.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by aaron88:

This is an FYI. You may already know about this but I thought I'd add it in here. I discovered on two transmissions that had exhaust running close to the aluminum casting. One was a stock Fiero with a stainless steel exhaust with no shielding. The other was a turbo setup, again no shielding. In both those cases the aluminum bellhousing had spider cracks all over it. My conclusion was that the heat cycles were too much for the aluminum which is very week at high temperatures. The cracking had not caused a failure but I could only assume that eventually it would have.

This is why manufacturers use double walled tubing on cross overs and a lot of the time on the headers too. To keep the heat away from the aluminum. Especially the transmission which does not have cooling in the bell housing.


.


I had never noticed anything like that before, but I was planning on ceramic coating, which helps with heat, and possibly some kind of heat shield if necessary.

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Report this Post02-11-2013 07:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Buy the size you need, they're available from the same place you purchased your tubing. Aftermarket expansion joints are usually sturdier than OE because they also have a braided steel mesh around the bellows. Although GM has done a better job with them by adding a sheet metal support underneath, the Turbo Grand Prix bellows had a history of cracking and coming apart. If you want to use OE which I've never had a problem with like what's pictured above, get the crossover from the 3500 and up cars as they are larger than what was placed on the 3400, ~1.75-2.00" if needed, I didn't measure it. You may also find the better joint in the exhaust pipe of some imports as they are usually braided also.

It's 4" long, the camera is bending the picture in auto focus, it also has an inner interlocking liner for smooth airflow through it as opposed to exposed louvers.




the 3400 bellows is too small, only 1.625" I need 2", maybe one from a 3800 would work, like I said though, my main problem right now is space, I don't have 4" of strait pipe to put an expansion on anywhere... I'm so glad I didn't do twin turbo like I originally planned...

In other news, I started on the wye pipe for the WG...



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Report this Post02-12-2013 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Did a little bit of work on the intake manifold today...



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Report this Post02-12-2013 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pttransamdriverSend a Private Message to pttransamdriverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Niterrorz:

you had me untill the oil filter plumbing


I wish this quote had a like button

Anyway Eric, I do see your reasoning for putting the piping in, but I still think there must be a better/lighter way of doing it. Also you will have to account for the extra volume of oil that will be in there and think about if that might overfill your reservoir.

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Report this Post02-12-2013 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by pttransamdriver:


I wish this quote had a like button

Anyway Eric, I do see your reasoning for putting the piping in, but I still think there must be a better/lighter way of doing it. Also you will have to account for the extra volume of oil that will be in there and think about if that might overfill your reservoir.


in the same post:

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
Edit: the oil filter plumbing has been redone, and is nothing like the below pictures now.


And the bit about the reservoir makes no sense at all.

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[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-12-2013).]

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Report this Post02-12-2013 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The stock crossovers were 1.5" ID same as the stock 2.8L exhaust logs. I wanted high velocity before the turbo so kept everything the same. The exhaust ports on the 2.8L/3.4L iron heads are only about 1" ID stock anyway. How big are those aluminum head exhaust ports?

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Report this Post02-12-2013 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

they are D-ports, and 1.625" pipe matches pretty darn close once formed into the D shape.

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Report this Post02-12-2013 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'd stick to something close to your log size to keep the exhaust speed up before the turbo. Could you fit 1.75" ID pipes to your turbo mounting flange? My T3 style mount barely fit's 1.5" pipes.

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Report this Post02-12-2013 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

my log size is 2 inch, I have found a couple of bellows, but they are all too long, I don't have a ton of space to play with.

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Report this Post02-16-2013 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

got my flange stubbed today, what a ***** that was... I'll post pics tomorrow.

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Report this Post02-17-2013 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post








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Report this Post02-19-2013 12:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

got a little bit done tonight, no pics yet though. I do have this cool (well kinda) picture I took the other night of science in action! see the little lines? those are formed when iron filing are on the ground, and my welding lead(big wire) runs over the top of them, this demonstrates that electron flow influences magnetism!


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Report this Post02-19-2013 01:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

LMAO, nerd.

J/K

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Report this Post02-19-2013 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:

LMAO, nerd.

J/K


Lol, well...

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Report this Post02-23-2013 02:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroaddictedClick Here to Email fieroaddictedSend a Private Message to fieroaddictedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

man this thing is looking sweet! great job with the car so far!

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Report this Post02-23-2013 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

thanks, I hope to be able to post some progress tomorrow.

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aji
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Report this Post03-06-2013 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ajiSend a Private Message to ajiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Very nice!

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ericjon262
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Report this Post03-06-2013 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

thanks, waiting on parts right now, hopefully once they are here I can get some real progress going again...

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Report this Post03-06-2013 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroaddictedClick Here to Email fieroaddictedSend a Private Message to fieroaddictedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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Report this Post03-13-2013 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

got the dash back in, going to out the 120 MPH speedo in my cluster and try to get it in the car tomorrow.

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Slowbuild
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Report this Post03-14-2013 10:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SlowbuildSend a Private Message to SlowbuildEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

RE: Expansion joints.

I had the same trouble with space on my twin scroll mitsu setup with a 3.4. What I figured was that if my front bank had a joint, my wastegate takeoff had an expansion joint, and my downpipe could move (which it can, it's just hung on exhaust hangers, then the rear bank can expand and not cause stress.

In othere words, if you stress relieve all except one, then that one can be free to move.

So far there has been no problems.

I wrapped with DEI titanium and the transaxle is fine so far. Be very carefull with heat around the shift cable ends...they get soft and slip off the ball studs.

Chay

[This message has been edited by Slowbuild (edited 03-14-2013).]

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Report this Post03-14-2013 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



got my cluster installed, need to finish installing all the trim pieces. I've also started re gluing the center console back together, I'll try to get some pics tonight!

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post03-18-2013 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The dashboard is "done"!

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Report this Post03-21-2013 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



ordered 30' of welding cable for my remote mount battery, then I decided to shrink boot them together to help with packaging. I'll get them installed later this week.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

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Report this Post03-25-2013 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

more custom stuff...









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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post04-01-2013 11:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

intake is getting welded up tomorrow or wednesday, I'm going to talk to my machinist and see how much longer on the rest of the engine tomorrow.

in other news, the intercooler lines are almost done, just need a couple more fittings and a little bit more hose, should have pictures tomorrow.

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Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post04-03-2013 02:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I got word that the intake is done at the welding shop! I won't be able to pick it up until friday at the earliest, but they said they were closed, so it looks like monday...

the intercooler lines were done, but I'm going to make a few changes. originally, I joined the two pipes together for ease of packaging, but the ease of packaging comes at a price. The hot coolant in route to the heat exchanger will warm up the cooler coolant on the way to the reservoir, so I'm going to redo them apart, and a little bit different too. right now, they are a little too long in the front, and bend up at too sharp of an angle in the back. I'll post pictures tomorrow when I get the new ones built.

I'm also entertaining the idea that I might run a bigger fuel line, stock is 3/8", I'm thinking I may step it up to 1/2" while I have the tank out. I'm going to go talk to one of the local (well **** the only) dyno tuners and see what he thinks. I've heard 3/8 will support 550 HP at 43 PSI, so I should be ok, I don't plan to be north of there, but the build (short of the cheap turbo) should be capable of more than that, and I have it apart already, so it wouldn't really be any significant work to upgrade now compared to later.

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we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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