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The Turbo 3500 F23 swap by ericjon262
Started on: 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
Replies: 450 (19538 views)
Last post by: ericjon262 on 11-07-2019 12:55 AM
ericjon262
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Report this Post09-19-2012 01:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

rebuilt my shifter today, but I have a new problem. Rodney's shift cables have the ball stud already pressed in, and it doesn't look as though it is easily removed without destroying the cable end, and the F23's ball is welded to the link... time for more welding, and re working... it'll let me kill two birds with one stone though, because the bracket holding my select cable in was too close to the ball, and made it hard to get into fifth and reverse. I'll post pictures tomorrow of how I fix it.

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Report this Post09-19-2012 08:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
rebuilt my shifter today, but I have a new problem. Rodney's shift cables have the ball stud already pressed in, and it doesn't look as though it is easily removed without destroying the cable end, and the F23's ball is welded to the link... time for more welding, and re working... it'll let me kill two birds with one stone though, because the bracket holding my select cable in was too close to the ball, and made it hard to get into fifth and reverse. I'll post pictures tomorrow of how I fix it.



I'd need to see a picture of what you're talking about for it to be clearer. I purchased my cables from The Fiero Store and they appeared to be just like Rodney's. I was pointing out at the time how nice they were because they were not only adjustable at the mount sleeve, they were also adjustable at the cup socket at the tranny end of the table. The OE cables are not adjustable at all except at the tranny.

Someone expressed desent about that ability in the cable suggesting it was inferior somehow, but when you're dealing with a custom application that characteristic is a plus.

There are two ball sizes at the Fiero tranny lever depending on what tranny you are using and from what I recall the Muncie 4 speed used both, one of each for the levers and the gate select on the Getrag the small cup which the F40 requires. I could be partly wrong about that but I know the cable with the end for the small cup comes in two different lengths and the one for the 5 spd is the longest.

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Report this Post09-19-2012 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Rodney offered to send me a end that didn't have the ball stud pressed in, but I need to fix the select gate either way so I turned him down.

Rodney's cables are pretty much non adjustable, there is a small amount of adjustment available on the ball end, but that's it. I've already had QC issues with The Fiero Stores parts, and customer service issues following the QC issues. I don't deal with the Fiero store anymore, I'll make my own parts and know the quality is good.

my issue is that I mounted the select cable to close to the shift shaft, so it can't pull it all the way into fifth and reverse.

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Report this Post09-20-2012 12:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

shifter is pretty much done, DLC is wired in, and the car is sitting on 4 wheels for the first time in over a year...

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Report this Post09-20-2012 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Couldnt you order the F23 cables from California push pull? They are fully adjustable.

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Report this Post09-20-2012 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Couldnt you order the F23 cables from California push pull? They are fully adjustable.


I designed the linkage around Isuzu cables that I got from mattwa for $15, it works fine now, just needed a little tweaking. the RD cables made a huge difference!

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Report this Post09-20-2012 05:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gtxbulletSend a Private Message to gtxbulletEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

you sir, are my hero

keep the pics and updates coming.

I have a direct link to this thread on my desktop!!

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Report this Post09-21-2012 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

well, here's an update for you! PCM is mounted!



I custom made a tray that is screwed with 8 self tapping sheet metal screws to the firewall. the PCM slides down into the lower part of the mount, and then a piece of angle aluminum bolts to the top part of the tray to secure the PCM in place.

Then, I got started on getting the PCM wired in to the car. so far, what was the fuel pump relay is in, along with the A/c clutch relay and the DLC.

it may not seem like much, but it was quite a bit of work. Hopefully the harness will be complete by the end of the week, here is how I left it tonight.




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Report this Post09-23-2012 02:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

trunk popper wire re-routed down the passenger side of the decklid, C500 almost finished being wired in, Relay control relay wired, fuel pump, I/C Pump, and I/C fan relays almost done.



and another "how I left it" pic.




I'll go out and say the Harness is about 15-20% complete.

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Report this Post09-26-2012 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

the harness is probably about 90% complete, I'd like to try to finish it tomorrow, but we'll see...

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Report this Post09-26-2012 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



Almost done... all that's left is a few diodes, and some misc. connections...

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Report this Post09-28-2012 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Took a break from the harness...





Mocked up the downpipe in 3" PVC, the real deal will probably be stainless.

also got the wrap job mostly finished on the dashboard.

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Report this Post09-28-2012 08:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

What's in the groove... is it staying?

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Report this Post09-28-2012 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

it's 1/4 inch aluminum fuel line, it's held in be evenly spaced pop rivets.

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Report this Post09-28-2012 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

well guys, I keep looking at the manifolds I have, and thinking about how they are a really poor match for my engines potential, and I've made the decision to continue onto making a custom set of headers. 1.5" 16ga mild steel, 3/8" flanges, and 3-1 collectors(1.5" in, 2.25 out) I'll probably reduce the 2.25 to 2.00 out of the collector for better velocity going into the turbo, but we'll see once I get come pipe in my hands.

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Report this Post09-29-2012 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

well guys, I keep looking at the manifolds I have, and thinking about how they are a really poor match for my engines potential, and I've made the decision to continue onto making a custom set of headers. 1.5" 16ga mild steel, 3/8" flanges, and 3-1 collectors(1.5" in, 2.25 out) I'll probably reduce the 2.25 to 2.00 out of the collector for better velocity going into the turbo, but we'll see once I get come pipe in my hands.


Speaking from experience, keep it simple, a nice blended log design like fingers merging into a pipe is still good. if you're going to build headers with mild steel you better do 14 Ga and shield it as opposed to heat wrapping, I can promise you the mild steel will not hold up well to the heat if you wrap it. It'll last for a while but unless relief points are built in they will warp and flake under the wrap. Leaks are hard to find with the wrap and will result in intermittent poor, or sluggish performance intermittently making the problem hard to resolve. It's very discouraging to have very good performance one day and noticeably less the next with no idea as to why.

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Report this Post09-29-2012 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Speaking from experience, keep it simple, a nice blended log design like fingers merging into a pipe is still good. if you're going to build headers with mild steel you better do 14 Ga and shield it as opposed to heat wrapping, I can promise you the mild steel will not hold up well to the heat if you wrap it. It'll last for a while but unless relief points are built in they will warp and flake under the wrap. Leaks are hard to find with the wrap and will result in intermittent poor, or sluggish performance intermittently making the problem hard to resolve. It's very discouraging to have very good performance one day and noticeably less the next with no idea as to why.



they will be built right, I'm going to design them/tack them together, and then have them professionally welded.


on a side note, do you know where I can get 14 ga mandrel bent tubing? 1.5" or 1.625"

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Report this Post09-29-2012 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
they will be built right, I'm going to design them/tack them together, and then have them professionally welded.


on a side note, do you know where I can get 14 ga mandrel bent tubing? 1.5" or 1.625"



http://www.stans-headers.com/parts.htm

You will not likely have a problem with the welds, it's just mild steel and it will see higher temps for a longer duration with a turbo and that will take its toll regardless of who welds it up. Cast iron can absorb more heat because of the increased wall thickness and as long as it is not wrapped you are less likely to have a problem with it. One source for turbo manifold building is weld elbows. Try McMaster Carr for those.

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Report this Post09-29-2012 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
http://www.stans-headers.com/parts.htm

You will not likely have a problem with the welds, it's just mild steel and it will see higher temps for a longer duration with a turbo and that will take its toll regardless of who welds it up. Cast iron can absorb more heat because of the increased wall thickness and as long as it is not wrapped you are less likely to have a problem with it. One source for turbo manifold building is weld elbows. Try McMaster Carr for those.



my problem isn't the material thickness, it's that my welder is a POS, and doesn't have a gas hookup... the coldest setting is also too hot for most of the tubing I've tried welding...

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Report this Post09-29-2012 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ladies and gentlemen, with the exception of the grounds, maf /iat sensor connector, and final taping, the powertrain harness is complete!

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Report this Post09-30-2012 07:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Ladies and gentlemen, with the exception of the grounds, maf /iat sensor connector, and final taping, the powertrain harness is complete!



Not until you spend another 45 min to an hour back probing the PCM plug pins against the sensor plug pins and grounds to make sure you didn't cross any by accident. Good job, can't wait to hear about the results when its up and running.

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Report this Post09-30-2012 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Not until you spend another 45 min to an hour back probing the PCM plug pins against the sensor plug pins and grounds to make sure you didn't cross any by accident. Good job, can't wait to hear about the results when its up and running.


like I said, it's done.

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Report this Post10-07-2012 12:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

woo hoo! I'm getting a set of forged pistons and H beam rods for the car now! this should be good!

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Report this Post10-12-2012 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



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Report this Post10-19-2012 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

ordering my header parts as soon as the quote comes back!

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Report this Post10-26-2012 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I put "LS7" lifter springs in my stock lifters to hopefully improve the high rpm valve events



Right side is stock, left is the LS7



24 lifters pistons.



check ball and check ball spring retainer left side has the retainer removed.



Check ball springs are also tighter than stock.



I would just use the whole "LS7" lifter, but they are taller (this is a pic of just the piston, stock on the right, "LS7" on left.



lifter piston with the main spring installed on the check ball spring retainer



then the lifter body slides over the piston and spring



and now we have the whole assembly upside down.



piston in the body



this thin disc then gets placed in the piston.



disc installed



then the pushrod socket.



installed



that is the piston retainer, it fits into a groove cut into the top of the main body.



Push the piston down in there, slide in the retainer, and then you are done!



should hopefully be good to 8000 RPMS I hope.

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Report this Post11-02-2012 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I started making my a2w intercooler mounts, still needs a couple of gussets, and the other side(not pictured) re-done (measure twice cut once!)





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[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 11-02-2012).]

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Report this Post11-03-2012 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Intercooler mount is almost done, just needs a couple of strait legs trimmed down, cleanup, and paint.

Please excuse the crappy pictures, I'll see about getting better ones tomorrow.







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Report this Post11-03-2012 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

more pics, I went out and finished the welding, trimming, and bracing.









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Report this Post11-03-2012 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looking good! The swap, that is.

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Report this Post11-03-2012 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

thanks! I like putting the time into making it myself, I keep digging deeper holes for myself though... turbos cams, pistons....

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Report this Post11-04-2012 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

thanks! I like putting the time into making it myself, I keep digging deeper holes for myself though... turbos cams, pistons....



LOL I am in the same boat with the 3.4TDC car. It was supposed to be an R&R, clutch and service. Now its MegaSquirt MS3, ING-6, All new wiring, battery relocation, exhaust, CAI, tune, suspension work etc etc.

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Report this Post11-04-2012 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I did another test fit of the intercooler, and I think I may need to trim one of the corners, it gets a little close to the crossmember on the cradle...

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Report this Post11-04-2012 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

need to modify the bracket a little, the corner down by the frame is about 1/2" from the crossmember.



I'll cut is at 45* across the corner and weld a angled corner to add about an inch of clearance.

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Report this Post11-10-2012 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

started the heat exchange mount today, I'm debating on whether or not to run fans on the core.





The "H" frame will be welded to the a/c condenser support, and the heat exchanger will bolt to the frame.

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Report this Post11-11-2012 07:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I never added the fan and don't feel there is a significant benefit to it considering it would only be effective when the car is stopped at a light. The water heats up so slowly during this time that long before the temp increase becomes significant you'll be moving again to cool it back down. In bumper to bumper traffic you can't go fast enough to need the benefit anyway. Without the intercooler at operating temps, the hot turbo added about 30 deg to the inlet temps and I recall cruise temps in the 130s during the Summer. The intercooler kept temps below 100. usually at about 10 deg above ambient and if you have at least a 2 gal coolant capacity you'll have no problem maintaining that considering I'm still running ~1 gal.

The temp stability (I setup a history table for it in Tunerpro) is amazing. Since you don't have impedence from a GT bumper I'd expect your heat transfer to be a little better than mine.

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ericjon262
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Report this Post11-16-2012 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

I never added the fan and don't feel there is a significant benefit to it considering it would only be effective when the car is stopped at a light. The water heats up so slowly during this time that long before the temp increase becomes significant you'll be moving again to cool it back down. In bumper to bumper traffic you can't go fast enough to need the benefit anyway. Without the intercooler at operating temps, the hot turbo added about 30 deg to the inlet temps and I recall cruise temps in the 130s during the Summer. The intercooler kept temps below 100. usually at about 10 deg above ambient and if you have at least a 2 gal coolant capacity you'll have no problem maintaining that considering I'm still running ~1 gal.

The temp stability (I setup a history table for it in Tunerpro) is amazing. Since you don't have impedence from a GT bumper I'd expect your heat transfer to be a little better than mine.



I was starting to think I wouldn't need them, esp with the size of my reservoir, which should be here tomorrow!

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Report this Post11-18-2012 12:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Finally got my tank in!













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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-18-2012 06:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That's a nice tank. It's obvious it's going to get some ice at some point so here's something you should consider in place of a cooling fan on the exchanger, an electric heater bypass valve to help get the most out of an ice bath. You don't want ice cold coolant going through the heat exchanger and getting warmed up toward ambient temps.

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Report this Post11-18-2012 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

a valve was in the plans for sure, but I'm thinking I will use Ice packs instead of actual ice, I'll explain later when I'm not at work.

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