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The Turbo 3500 F23 swap by ericjon262
Started on: 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
Replies: 574 (22755 views)
Last post by: La fiera on 11-28-2020 09:10 PM
ericjon262
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Report this Post07-20-2020 02:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Work has been kicking my ass, I really want to start the engine before I go back out to sea, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it, and if it doesn't start before I go, it might be early next year before I can get back on it... I plan to take some odds and ends out to sea with me so I can take a shitload of measurements and when I get back, punch them into a CAD program.

Today, I knocked out a bunch of stuff on the list, The alternator charge wire is made and installed, the axles are back in the car, and the transmission is filled. For those of you that don't know, the F23 transmission's oil fill is tiny and very easy to overflow... I also primed the oil system with a pump sprayer through the turbo oil feed, no leaks were observed. I also made up the rest of the vacuum and boost lines, as well as the heater core supply line. I was going to wire up the fuel pump connector, but I couldn't find the other half of it, until I started typing this... I'm hoping tuesday I can get the thermostat outlet hose figured out, and start filling the cooling system, but the way work has been, I'm not sure it will happen.

The list looks short, but I'm sure I'll find a dozen or more things to add to it before it starts.


To start the car:

fix the flex fuel sender wires (they're a bit too short...)
Wire the other half of the fuel pump connector
set the ignition timing
add chafing protection to the wiring near the battery
some kind of a base tune...

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Report this Post07-27-2020 12:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
well, it popped off today! I have lots of issues to sort out still, for some reason the DBWX2 and the MS3 pro keep loosing coms, and the only time I could get it to do something that seemed like a reasonable idle, was when it was so pig rich it was billowing black smoke, otherwise as soon as it starts it immediately jumps to 2500-3000 RPM. I'm going to start by troubleshooting the can bus circuit between the MS3 and the DBWX2, as I don't have a reason to believe there's a vacuum leak that big anywhere, and the default position for the TB is fairly far open, so that could be part of the problem. Hopefully I can figure out whats going on with the can bus and that yields some kind of progress.

Anyways, here's a video of the first start.

https://youtu.be/PO938D0WGmg

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Report this Post07-27-2020 01:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
While the car may still have problems, the fact that it runs confirms that a good number of systems were done right!

Here is an OK guide that shows how to set up a CAN bus:
https://www.kmpdrivetrain.c...ctical-tips-can-bus/

Both ends of the bus must be terminated with a 120 Ohm resistor, and you should minimise stub lengths (because stubs are typically unterminated). Ideally, you should use a twisted pair for the bus.

Some CAN devices are designed to serve as the termination of the bus, so they will include a 120 Ohm bus termination inside. Check if any of your devices are like this.

If you can configure your devices to use the lowest possible baud rate, that would help with data integrity. The downside of lowering the baud rate is that each message takes more time to broadcast, increasing bus utilization. When the bus load gets too high, low-priority messages cannot get through because high-priority messages are hogging the bus.

The SAE J1939 standard (the best reference to look at, IMO) has sections which explain how to do the physical layer of a CAN bus, but it is hidden behind a paywall.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-27-2020).]

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ericjon262
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Report this Post07-28-2020 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

While the car may still have problems, the fact that it runs confirms that a good number of systems were done right!

Here is an OK guide that shows how to set up a CAN bus:
https://www.kmpdrivetrain.c...ctical-tips-can-bus/

Both ends of the bus must be terminated with a 120 Ohm resistor, and you should minimise stub lengths (because stubs are typically unterminated). Ideally, you should use a twisted pair for the bus.

Some CAN devices are designed to serve as the termination of the bus, so they will include a 120 Ohm bus termination inside. Check if any of your devices are like this.

If you can configure your devices to use the lowest possible baud rate, that would help with data integrity. The downside of lowering the baud rate is that each message takes more time to broadcast, increasing bus utilization. When the bus load gets too high, low-priority messages cannot get through because high-priority messages are hogging the bus.

The SAE J1939 standard (the best reference to look at, IMO) has sections which explain how to do the physical layer of a CAN bus, but it is hidden behind a paywall.




All of my devices have the internal resistors already in place, and are able to be switched on or off. I have three devices on the bus, the microsquirt, the DBWx2, and the MS3 Pro, I'm going to disconnect the micro and see if maybe it's somehow providing feedback onto the bus and disrupting coms somehow.

My bus is twisted pair, but also not shielded, I have some leftover Tefzel shielded wire that I might replace the existing wiring with and see if that helps. I might have to download that SAE document and take a look while I'm underwater.

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Report this Post07-29-2020 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I might have to download that SAE document and take a look while I'm underwater.


See you in a few months!

You should have received the gauge by now.
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Report this Post08-01-2020 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


See you in a few months!

You should have received the gauge by now.


My buddy called me about it! Thanks again, I'll get it installed after I get back! This will probably be my last post on here for a while, but I plan to hit the ground running when I get back!

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Report this Post08-03-2020 03:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

... This will probably be my last post on here for a while, but I plan to hit the ground running when I get back!



Safe travels.

Regarding the 120 ohm resistors... are the devices bridged together on the bus? I'm thinking "double or triple terminations". In network, audio, and telephone, that can load the signal down to the point of being unusable.
OTOH, if all the Canbus connections are merely point-to-point (or don't mind multiple terminations) then disregard. (And please pardon my ignorance.)

FWIW, I have seen GM Canbus networks get "noised up" by a simple iPod adapter that plugged in between the harness and the stock headunit. Caused all kinds of very random electrical gremlins, including a "no-start" condition, until I accidentally bumped the headunit, while troubleshooting. Suddenly, everything "got happy". Thinking just an intermittent connection on the aftermarket piece, but I removed it anyway.
Happened to two of my own GM vehicles, a 2004 Trailblazer and a 2005 Silverado. Different iPod adapters in each vehicle.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-03-2020).]

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Report this Post11-22-2020 05:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
Safe travels.


Thanks, it feels good to be back on dry land, and not underwater.

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
Regarding the 120 ohm resistors... are the devices bridged together on the bus? I'm thinking "double or triple terminations". In network, audio, and telephone, that can load the signal down to the point of being unusable.
OTOH, if all the Canbus connections are merely point-to-point (or don't mind multiple terminations) then disregard. (And please pardon my ignorance.)


Only the termination resistor in the farthest unit is "active", I'm fairly certain that if there is a comms problem, it's due to the unshielded wire, I'm contemplating breaking out the leftover Tefzel I have and rewiring the can bus lines if I have to.


 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
FWIW, I have seen GM Canbus networks get "noised up" by a simple iPod adapter that plugged in between the harness and the stock headunit. Caused all kinds of very random electrical gremlins, including a "no-start" condition, until I accidentally bumped the headunit, while troubleshooting. Suddenly, everything "got happy". Thinking just an intermittent connection on the aftermarket piece, but I removed it anyway.
Happened to two of my own GM vehicles, a 2004 Trailblazer and a 2005 Silverado. Different iPod adapters in each vehicle.


I'm hoping there aren't any gremlins that are that sensitive, it makes troubleshooting a nightmare.

hopefully there will be some significant updates in the next few weeks.
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Report this Post11-22-2020 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can buy actual SAE J-1939 CAN bus cable pre-made.
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Report this Post11-24-2020 01:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

You can buy actual SAE J-1939 CAN bus cable pre-made.


I've been looking into it, most of what I'm seeing though, has too many conductors or is only sold in very large quantities.

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"I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."

cognita semper

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 11-24-2020).]

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ericjon262
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Report this Post11-27-2020 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
good news! with the addition of the new battery, the throttle appears to be syncing up! I suspect the cranking voltage was too low for the DBW unit to maintain the throttle operating, so it said "F-this, I'm out".

Tomorrow, I'm gonna head to the parts store and pick up some coolant, and try and see what I can make happen with the idle.

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Report this Post11-28-2020 04:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
With the new battery, comes a new, unexpected problem, my MAF either a) isn't outputting a signal or b) the signal isn't making it to the MS3 pro. 

So far, I have verified the MAF signal wire is wired to the correct MS3 pro pin, then I checked power and ground on the MAF sensor. everything seems to check out good, I'm going to order a new sensor and cross my fingers. 

I started working on a speed density "tune" to try and get it idling, and this thing sounds pretty nasty for a little V6, I'll have to try and get a camera with a decent mic and get a clip going.

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Report this Post11-28-2020 11:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
New development! I looked at a datalog, and my IAT is all over the place, with fluctuations way more rapid than I would expect from IAT(20 degrees in 0.5 sec), and about 40-50 degrees colder than ambient... I checked again to make sure it's pinned correctly, but I suspect I have the wrong pinout, and the MAF signal is being transmitted over the IAT signal wire.

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Report this Post11-28-2020 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
CHOP CHOP CHOP!

https://youtu.be/gIQ5aVr_l4c

The IAT and Flexfuel wires got crossed somehow... for now, I'm going to keep working on a speed density tune until I can get MAF figured out.

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Report this Post11-28-2020 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

CHOP CHOP CHOP!

https://youtu.be/gIQ5aVr_l4c

The IAT and Flexfuel wires got crossed somehow... for now, I'm going to keep working on a speed density tune until I can get MAF figured out.



Good job Erick!!!
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