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low dollar 3800 turbo project by darkhorizon
Started on: 09-17-2009 09:43 PM
Replies: 507 (35199 views)
Last post by: Will on 07-01-2019 08:40 AM
darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-17-2009 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post





About $700 invested, ~500whp@17psi.

VGT turbo, with a max flow around 62lb/m. Giant w/a ebay intercooler.

Overall stock L67 with rockers and a few tweaks tuning wise. gutted blower housing.

Will be tuning it next weekend, or maybe a bit sooner.

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AspenGrey
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Report this Post09-17-2009 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AspenGreyClick Here to visit AspenGrey's HomePageClick Here to Email AspenGreySend a Private Message to AspenGreyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:





About $700 invested, ~500whp@17psi.

VGT turbo, with a max flow around 62lb/m. Giant w/a ebay intercooler.

Overall stock L67 with rockers and a few tweaks tuning wise. gutted blower housing.

Will be tuning it next weekend, or maybe a bit sooner.


Hey Dark? Can you descibe where the $700 went? If i could get something like this for that much it'd rock o.o

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post09-17-2009 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

These guys might be able to save you some tuning trouble for a quick start with a good tune. There setup is basically the same except for the car:

http://www.highperformancep...rand_prix/index.html

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KurtAKX
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Report this Post09-17-2009 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice work. Whaddya, drive that thing to work daily or something?

In keeping with the trend I've seen in everybody else's 3800 threads *Like Dave's "Haus of Guru",

http://www.fastfieros.com checking in to call BS, since there's no dyno sheet.

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 09-17-2009).]

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Dementia
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Report this Post09-17-2009 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DementiaClick Here to Email DementiaSend a Private Message to DementiaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You and them pics makes me wanna get rid of my genv and s1x and get me a turbo with a noticeably larger cam. As suggested by you of course

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Report this Post09-18-2009 02:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Neolithic ShadowClick Here to visit Neolithic Shadow's HomePageClick Here to Email Neolithic ShadowSend a Private Message to Neolithic ShadowEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

wow thats impressive! is that a Holset a HX-55? it vaguely resembles my HX-35, but don't think its capable of that kind of power. But yeah, could you give a little insight on how the budget was spent?...again, congrads on those numbers though

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-18-2009 06:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is a 351VE holset, about the size of a 6blade HX40pro. The VGT should let me see a bit more peak power than the HX40pro would.

The most horsepower I have seen out of a HX40pro was 650whp on a DSM 4cyl.... So if I have the intercooling and engine setup correctly (valvetrain mods), I might start hunting around in the high 500whp area with this turbo.

I will not be needing any help for tuning this car... I have tuned a large amount of turbo 3800's and they are honestly the easiest things to tune out there... Its just making sure the fuel pump is up to the task really. If I didnt use any tricks, I would be running out of maf VERY quickly, so that is also another reason why I have to tune myself (and also another reason it is so easy).

Rough cost outline. Cost includes shipping etc.

60# injectors $220
Intercooler with junkyard pump and fmhe $210
Turbo $130
Wastegate $95
BOV/charge piping $80
Powerlog/exhaust flange $45
Heat wrap $35

Other than a gasket or 2, that is it. It came out a bit higher than expected due to the powerlog and a bit more expensive intercooler setup than expected, so it is more around $900 right now.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 09-18-2009).]

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post09-18-2009 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 09-19-2009).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-18-2009 12:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I didnt say anything about dyno numbers.. I base all of my performance metrics on track times/trap speeds.

I also do not go around harassing people for proof of anything.

fastfieros.com Demanding proof of modest dyno claims.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-18-2009 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

Nice work. Whaddya, drive that thing to work daily or something?

In keeping with the trend I've seen in everybody else's 3800 threads *Like Dave's "Haus of Guru",

http://www.fastfieros.com checking in to call BS, since there's no dyno sheet.



I beleieve that Darkhorizon is building a race only Fiero. All of the very fastest Fieros use Turbos. In this case it looks like a quality install and it appears that he had to remove the trunk to fit the turbo . It wouldn't surprise me if the car runs in the high tens.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-18-2009 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is far from a "race" setup, just a better way to make alot of power on the street with pump gas.

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KurtAKX
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Report this Post09-18-2009 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just realized, that's not going into your car is it?

I came to this conclusion based on two things:
1) the many discussions we've had about dogbones; you hate them, and the car in these photos has one.
2) from the little bit I can see, that kinda looks like a manual transmission; the other thing you hate in Fieros.

ok, edit. Three things. Third being there are no partially disassembled snowmobiles in the background of any of these pictures.

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 09-18-2009).]

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Justinbart
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Report this Post09-19-2009 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

.

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FastFieros
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Report this Post09-19-2009 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FastFierosClick Here to visit FastFieros's HomePageClick Here to Email FastFierosSend a Private Message to FastFierosEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Scott... Good luck..

the 'real' http://www.fastfieros.com checking in... and I did not call out Dave on the dyno run with Saboo's car, or whoever's it was. I merely made a observation that the video stopped short of the dyno graph jumping up on the screen. Dave clearly explained that the shop was protective of the video being shot to start with.

http://www.fastfieros.com checking out !

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-20-2009 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I dont need your backpedaling in my threads loyde, I hope you check out for good on this thread as I know you have nothing positive to offer.

My buddy did some work while I was at the track today playing with supras... Not sure how much I like the IC being so close to the turbo myself.




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KurtAKX
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Report this Post09-20-2009 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

what are you using to run the vgt?

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Steve25
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Report this Post09-20-2009 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve25Click Here to Email Steve25Send a Private Message to Steve25Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks like a lot of fun. I'd like to see it run sometime.

------------------
Steve AT 88GTP DOT com
88 GT

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Steve25
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Report this Post09-20-2009 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve25Click Here to Email Steve25Send a Private Message to Steve25Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks like a lot of fun. I'd like to see it run sometime.

------------------
Steve AT 88GTP DOT com
88 GT

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-20-2009 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

what are you using to run the vgt?


Nothing in stone yet, trying to get ahold of a wastegate actuator I like before I commit to anything. The plan is to run a 7psi wastegate actuator off of a internally gated turbo to move the vgt rack.

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Report this Post09-20-2009 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't know anything about GM factory-style computers, but would you have any unused outputs you could program?

Then, you could use a servomotor to actuate the vanes.

This would make tuning very flexible.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-20-2009 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Would be great if that was easily accomplished....

First off, I do have some outputs I could use to control this, but they are very simple, and by no means would i have a nice PWM output ... At best I could get a decent "boost control" type output via the stock boost control circuit.

The dodge trucks used the electronic VGT actuator, for a few reasons, but it is vacuum actuated on MANY of the other holset VGT applications. A few guys have been working on getting the stock electronic one to work correctly, but the amount of ciruct design required is a bit more than it is worth, as the advantages of having full "unbridled" control of this does not present any advantages in a gas application... (the diesels can use it as an engine brake, warm up, emissions).

I plan on installing a manual boost controller on the VGT actuator in hopes of being able to adjust the "crossover points" of the vgt rack opening and closing.

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Mike46
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Report this Post09-20-2009 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mike46Click Here to Email Mike46Send a Private Message to Mike46Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Twin charging? Or are you going to gut the M90 and use a blockoff plate? Those fuel lines are holding up pretty well?

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-20-2009 05:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Doubt the twincharge will happen, planning on a blockoff at the moment.

If my friend is upset by turbo lag, then we may toss the blower back into it.

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-20-2009 07:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

This is far from a "race" setup, just a better way to make alot of power on the street with pump gas.


Power -yes you sould make it
Race Setup. IMO without a trunk, you''ll have a hard time getting any chic to go on a road trip with you. Most women carry six bags for an overnight trip!!!! Without a trunk you might find that your Fiero automatically becomes "race ony" . I consider Fieros without trunks "Race ony" but who knows anything is possible.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-20-2009 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The amount of trunk lost on this project is no more than what was lost when the 3800 was put in....

The trunk cutting discussion is another thread entirely... but this is the furthest thing from a "race" setup as you can get, and is honestly the only reason this was done was to eliminate the need for race gas / careful tuning and fiddling around associated with trying to make decent power with a blower.

This same setup could have been done with a trunk, as proven by akursedx, who also attests his car to be quite far from a "race"setup.

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Justinbart
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Report this Post09-20-2009 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hello all, I finally setup an account, I've been trolling for a couple years. This is my car. its an 86gt 5speed and 88 rear cradle conversion. Its far from a race only fiero. i've had the trunk modified for several years with no problems. The bottom part was taken out to make room for the exhaust when I did the l67 swap. Its flat across instead of the wedge shape it did have. Its plenty of room for me, I can still fit a 5gal gas can in it or a full cart of groceries. I drove it several times a week to Detroit on 100mile round trip since its gets far better gas mileage than my blazer at around 30-35mpg. I'm hoping to get even better mileage with the turbo since it is far more efficient then the supercharger. I plan on making a removable floor that has a heat shield that goes between the turbo and intercooler.

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Justinbart
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Report this Post09-20-2009 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This project is funded by my winnings at a circle track spectator drags over the last couple of months. So its basically free to me. Scott posted some videos a while ago. Here is the one from last weekend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERK_krZfxiU
I may put it in the video section.

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nosrac
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Report this Post09-20-2009 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That Turbo is freakin sweet...I also put my vote in for twin charge. 0 lag... what is the downside to a twincharge?

You also rock on the circle track.... Is it your driving skills, the wheels, the suspension, 3800 SC, or all of the above?

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Justinbart
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Report this Post09-20-2009 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm hoping the variable exhaust housing will give me zero lag, we will see soon

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Fog
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Report this Post09-21-2009 03:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FogSend a Private Message to FogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Dark, You can plumb the VGT actuator to exhaust also. If done correctly, it will be better than boost reference.
Point is, that when excessive TIP(turbine inlet pressure) starts to build up, the vanes will ease up.
"brake" Fitting on the ex manifold, some brass plumbing with 4-5 loops to cool down the media and then to the adjustable actuator.


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Report this Post09-21-2009 05:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GenopsydeClick Here to visit Genopsyde's HomePageSend a Private Message to GenopsydeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

Not sure how much I like the IC being so close to the turbo myself.



Perhaps some type of heat shield over the turbo like the buick GN's came with? Or one over the IC since it doesn't require air flowing around it.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-21-2009 11:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fog:

Dark, You can plumb the VGT actuator to exhaust also. If done correctly, it will be better than boost reference.
Point is, that when excessive TIP(turbine inlet pressure) starts to build up, the vanes will ease up.
"brake" Fitting on the ex manifold, some brass plumbing with 4-5 loops to cool down the media and then to the adjustable actuator.



In theory that would work... but on a similar sized turbo this is what happens to the backpressure... The gauge on top is backpressure lol.

Its a T67 with a T4 .83 exhaust housing... So its no small restrictive junk turbo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCV14LJF7To

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 09-21-2009).]

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Fog
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Report this Post09-21-2009 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FogSend a Private Message to FogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:


In theory that would work... but on a similar sized turbo this is what happens to the backpressure... The gauge on top is backpressure lol.

Its a T67 with a T4 .83 exhaust housing... So its no small restrictive junk turbo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCV14LJF7To



Yes, that is true, but my point was that then the vane control would be the thing that the vane controlling has direct affect.
Accelerating: 1000rpm, 3000, 5000, 7000
Vanes "closed":
boost: 0psi 20psi 20psi 20psi
TIP: 0psi 15psi 30psi 45psi

Vanes open:
boost: 0psi 10psi 20psi 20psi
TIP: 0psi 7psi 15psi 30psi

TIP activated vane opening(20psi preload on the actuator):
boost: 0psi 20psi 20psi 20psi
TIP: 0psi 15psi 20psi 30psi

And you'll get the benefit of the "small turbine" on spoolup and "large turbine" at top end. Quite foolproof and adjustable also.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-21-2009 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I do have a 20psi actuator....

I will entertain the idea, as it should promote a bit smoother spool without the sharp spike downwards when it reaches the 7psi intake pressure point. There will also be a bit more "horsepower" available from the 20psi spring, and consequently the 40psi exhaust pressure.

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Fog
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Report this Post09-21-2009 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FogSend a Private Message to FogEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

I do have a 20psi actuator....

I will entertain the idea, as it should promote a bit smoother spool without the sharp spike downwards when it reaches the 7psi intake pressure point. There will also be a bit more "horsepower" available from the 20psi spring, and consequently the 40psi exhaust pressure.


7psi inlet will slow down the spool.
Your turbo will spool to 7psi, then flaps smash wide open, but there is not enough TIP to hold the 7psi, so from the log you'll see 1 3 5 7 6 5 7 9 11 ... a "dead point".


When choosing the pressure to open vanes, first log the "nessecary TIP to COP ratio" both vanes open and closed. Do as was in the video you posted. camera and two boost gauges. Then frame by frame see it trough.

The vanes should not start to open before full boost is seen with vanes closed.
The vanes should not fully open before full boost is seen with vanes open.

Just play with the idea, it costs next to none to try, but like I said, if done correctly, it will be a blast to drive and smooth power, not a "click" on the roundabout or a sharp turn.

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-21-2009 06:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

A few guys that did it before, they were hitting the 7-9psi area, and the boost curve just slowed down a bit, it never went backwards.

I really DO want my housing to just slam open, as the 7psi mark, the driver should be plenty happy with the 300whp or so that it will be making at that time, and the extra time it would take the turbo to slug its way up to the 15-16psi target max boost will just be easier on the motor/transmission.... Sorta like torque management in a way.

Only thing I would be worried about, is surging the exhaust housing around 4-7psi.

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85LAMB
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Report this Post09-21-2009 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85LAMBClick Here to Email 85LAMBSend a Private Message to 85LAMBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Darkhorizon

Can you please let me know what clutch and preasure plate the car is running ?

Are you planning on keeping the same clutch with the turbo set up ?

Has the transmission been rebuild ? or what has been done to the trans to take the power ?

If you dont mind me asking,
do you know if the owner had the flywheel balanced to the grand prix flexplate ?

Thanks for you help

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Report this Post09-21-2009 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 85LAMB:

Darkhorizon

Can you please let me know what clutch and preasure plate the car is running ?

Are you planning on keeping the same clutch with the turbo set up ?

Has the transmission been rebuild ? or what has been done to the trans to take the power ?

If you dont mind me asking,
do you know if the owner had the flywheel balanced to the grand prix flexplate ?

Thanks for you help


spec stage 3
6k mileage getrag
flywheel was shaved and balanced/counterbalanced at a local machine shop

it ran 11.97@120.6 with no issue so we will see

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post09-21-2009 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It was balanced to the spec of a stock L67 flywheel, and yes it was clocked correctly... The motor runs very smoothly with really stiff mounts.

I foresee a lot of clutch issues in the near future myself.... but I have been wrong in the past.. Mostly about my own car with an auto trans that has loved ever second of my turbo setup.

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85LAMB
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Report this Post09-21-2009 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85LAMBClick Here to Email 85LAMBSend a Private Message to 85LAMBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Justing and Darkhorizon

Thanks a lot for the info,
I am planning on doing a swap and have been trying to learn as much as possible.

Justinbart
I think its amazing that you ran a 11.97 to me that is super fast
You must be a very good driver.
My goal is to hit very low 13s but would love to do a high 12s if possible.
I know that to must people that is not that fast but I would be happy with that,
since I want the car to be as quiet as possible.
What kind of hp do you think you are pushing ?

Darkhorizon
Can you please tell me what does "yes it was clocked correctly" mean.
I really don't understand and I really want to do things correctly the first time.

Do you mean that you foresee a lot of clutch issues because the amount of hp the eng will be pushing ?

Please keep us posted, I really want to know how this car runs with the turbo.

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