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Preparing my Fiero for an engine swap by longjonsilver
Started on: 05-07-2018 06:59 PM
Replies: 95 (3160 views)
Last post by: longjonsilver on 11-11-2019 07:59 AM
pmbrunelle
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Report this Post04-03-2019 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You have to realize that the main parts (gears, shafts, bearings) of transmissions are expected to die from fatigue of the metals.

After a certain number of cycles at a certain stress level, the metal breaks. The fatigue life of a particular piece of metal is a statistical thing... it can vary quite a lot. Some pieces can last a long time, some pieces a short time.

When designing something like this, you want the stress level low enough so that even the least fatigue-resistant part can last for the life of the car. Practically speaking, this means that transmissions are overbuilt, to avoid the possibility that any of them break due to a component having a shorter-than-average (but still "normal") fatigue life.

How overbuilt? I am not presently involved in transmissions, but for the type of part I am involved with, our customer's (an OEM) expectation is that not more than 50 units / 1 000 000 produced fail while on warranty.

For a single part on the vehicle, the failure rate needs to be this low, otherwise, if the thousands of parts on a car each had a failure rate of 0.1% while on warranty, the car would be in the shop all the time, the end-user would be frustrated, and it would cost everyone involved a bunch of money.

So, that's automotive supplier logic.

********************************************************************************

Now, I put on my weekend tuner hat... I'm souping up my Fiero engine. I expect to have a bunch more torque than stock, lets say 280 lb*ft.

I "refreshed" my Muncie, and I made sure to use the 85-86 V6 ribbed case, but I have done zero mods to improve the torque handling. So it still has the 170 lb*ft GM "rating".

Obviously, I'll be overloading this transmission, but I'm taking a gamble. Unless I am unlucky and I happen to have "short fatigue life" parts in my transmission, it probably could last, due to the "overbuilding" that I mentioned in the first part of this post. Archie implicitly sells V8 kits based on this premise.

Maybe there's a 1 in 3 chance (I don't know what the odds are; this is a guess) that my Muncie will blow in the first three years of operation with the souped-up engine, but I'm willing to roll the dice.

This is a project car; I accept that kind of failure rate. I have another vehicle as a daily driver, and I like being in the garage working on my Fiero anyway.

********************************************************************************

That's basically the difference between racer torque ratings and OEM torque ratings.

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wftb
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Report this Post04-04-2019 07:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The f35 got a bad rep on the old ecotec forum as being failure prone when used with built engines. The f23 has been used successfully behind 3800 turbo motors on this forum. I f you compare a f23 to any fiero tranny the difference is obvious. Why the low rating is a mystery to me. But my f23 has been beat on for ten years now and it still works as well as the day it was installed. One thing to know is there are 2 versions of the f35 5 speed. The first was used in the supercharged SS Cobalt and has axles compatable with Fiero hubs and transmissions. The second version was used with the turbocharged Cobalt SS and uses axles with different spline counts and bigger diameter shafts and will not fit Fiero transaxles or hubs. F23 transaxles from Cobalts will fit Fiero hubs and are simple short/long axle setup rather than the f35's that both use a jackshaft and equal length axles.

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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-04-2019).]

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post04-14-2019 06:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ecotecs with the F23 tranny are selling on Kijiji for $150C on up. Dime a dozen. But the LE5 is harder to find. Problem is shipping as most i see are in Ontario, and i'm moving east farther from the center of action.
jon

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Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post04-14-2019 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FWIW, I have a failed F23 in a 2006 Saturn Ion with the 2.2L engine at 285,000 km (177,000 miles). It just grinds in 2nd gear position. Not driven hard & lots of highway use.

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post05-10-2019 08:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lotsa 2.2 ecotec motors to choose from. i'm leaning ecotec because of gas prices and handling. Might just buy a wreck and get to work some winter. Gotta prove myself tho first by figuring out the franken harness for my headlignt motors. New heavy gauge battery cables are in order too. The radiator is a lot heavier and with the battery under the headlight; both projects done about the same time - winter. The car handles noticibly better at high speed with little to no change in low speed handling. Of course new tires (and GT wheels) help the handling. i don't want to find out what effects a heavier motor in back will do to the carz handling. Its one of those things you know when driving aircooled VWs and Fieros much of your life. In additin, i am convinced that the GT front end has less uplift than the formula or bumperpad front ends do. Just my thots your mileage may vary.

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post06-30-2019 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well, we got moved in to our new house in Halifax NS, and i want to get Freya registered. She needs the cat put back in. No visual inspections here, they use a heat gun to see if it is working. So i decided to reinstall the cat. Went in easy, the Canadian Tire exhaust pipe, slipped right in and when i started her up she purred like a kitten. Now i need to weld her. Started to wire in a welding plug, and lost the screw for the ground wire. Trying to find it with a magnet. Frustrating and due to my own stupidity. She made the drive from Montreal with no problems. Ran like a champ. i don't expect any problems with the safety inspection. Gotta check the lights tho before.
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post07-08-2019 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i fitted the cat and she ran good before being welded. Googled muffler shops and took it to the highest rated one. Wouldn't give me a price, said they had to put it on a lift first. They welded it and charged me only $34. Such a deal. Also told me that 84 Fieros dont need a cat to pass safety. Guy showed me on the government website where pre 91 vehicles are exempt. All that for nothin. Still Freya runs good.
jon

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Initial.F
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Report this Post07-10-2019 06:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Initial.FClick Here to Email Initial.FSend a Private Message to Initial.FEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My very first swap
A very old build thread....My swap has been majorly revised....this would be the first time this engine was installed.

I now use a black and red theme.

[This message has been edited by Initial.F (edited 07-10-2019).]

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post07-10-2019 06:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice looking swap.

 
quote
Originally posted by Initial.F:

My very first swap
A very old build thread....My swap has been majorly revised....this would be the first time this engine was installed.

I now use a black and red theme.



------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post08-25-2019 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i have had difficulty finding a headlight wiring harness for my Gen 2 headlight motors, so i have to hand crank them up. Altho i have an 84 i put in the Gen 2 headlight motors because my Gen 1 motors screwed up twice. The first time was because of the green sand, and the second time was because of the switch deciding to turn on one night while i was sleeping and run until i got up in the morning. i came into the garage and wondered what the hum was all about. Well, anyway, i swapped in the Gen 2 motors that a friend had given me - 4 motors actually - two of which have the Rodney Dickman brass gears. Hey, such a deal! The old motors were not worth rebuilding because the hand crank never worked from day one and i bot this car new at Peracchi Pontiac. People say you have to crank them alot - well, how about 15 minutes, is that enuf?

Anyway, i have to crank my new Gen 2 motors up and down by hand which is a pain. Thinking about how the Gen 1 motors have a couple of holes where you can put in a special tool to speed up the process, i looked in my tool chest to see what i could find. A 27mm socket and a speed wrench do the trick quite well actually. The 6 point socket works, but a 12 point socket would be better. The 6 point didn't slip, but i worried that it might. Anyhoo, here is a pic of my "new" headlight motor speed tool.




Please pardon the bad photography, my phone takes bad pics sometimes, especially up close, and my android file transfer to my mac couldn't find my pics so i had to take a screenshot of the pic, download it to my mac and then take another screenshot of the screenshot to eliminate the border from the phone. Perhaps you will get the idea anyway.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post10-25-2019 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Projects for this coming winter.

Door projects
Repair door handle on passenger side
Install new dew wipes both sides
Fight rattles and squeeks both sides
New bushings on drivers side

Electrical
Rewire headlight harness to accomodate the Gen 2 motors
Install new condensers in tachometer
Install new condensers in intermtttant wiper board

Interior
Install new seat covers drivers side

Doable if i can get the soldering to flow right

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post11-03-2019 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will a sealed lead acid battery leak? i moved my battery under the passenger headlight and my battery started to corrode my battery box and horn. i need something that absolutely won't leak acid and corrode. Do i have to spend extra for an AGM battery?
thanks
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post11-03-2019 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yes, a poverty battery will be prone to having acid leaking out the top and running down the sides onto stuff.

AGM is the way to go to avoid that. They can even be installed sideways and electrolyte won't come out.

Otherwise, you can manage the acid situation, such as with a plastic battery tray with a drain pipe to the ground.

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post11-03-2019 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
AGM is the way to go to avoid that. They can even be installed sideways and electrolyte won't come out.


Are you done driving for the year, or are you going to continue to drive until winter tires are required? i'm gonna drive till they salt the roads. i have been using Charlie's (my 92 S10) battery in Freya but i gotta get Charlie on the road. The Surete de Quebec pulled me over just outside of montreal and gave me 48 hours to get off the road. Charlie is sitting in the driveway undergoing repairs and soon will be ready for a safety inspection here in NS. That is why i need to buy a new battery for Freya - and the fact that there is corrosion starting on my new battery box and Caddy horn.

BCI group 75 is what is specified for the 85 2m4 and it will fit fine in my battery box, but some places don't have an AGM. Costco has a good guarantee and ships to your door, but i am unable to find if they carry one. Wallmart doesn't carry a group 75 AGM, neither does Canadian Tire.

So i might have to reverse my leads so that the hot is on the right altho that puts it closer to the headlight door. Dunno what to do. So i'm looking for a vehicle that has a battery that will fit, left hand positive and AGM.

Other batteries that are 9 1/16 long to fit my battery box are 25, 35, 51, 72, 73, 85, 86 (some are 9 3/8). Gonna go to Walmart tomorrow and search thru their hardcopy BOOK and try to find a vehicle that has a battery that will work that has an AGM.

https://www.gglotus.org/ggt...battery-bci-size.htm

We had a great run this year, 6 cars, and some more are in the garage, and the owners promise that they will come out next year. NS has no Fiero club, and has not had a run in as long as anyone can remember. So this was a great success. Good talking to you there in my old hometown.
blessings
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post11-04-2019 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Optima has a 75/25 battery:
https://www.optimabatteries...top-starting-battery

I guess it's just a matter of finding an Optima retailer. It may be more of a "tuner shop" thing than something readily available at the big box stores.

As far as "car clubs" go, people initially come to the group because of an interest in a particular car, but after some time (at least for those who stick around), it becomes more about socializing with the other folks in a more general sense. In Club Fiero Montréal, we have one regular member who hasn't had a Fiero for years, but still shows up to meet with us.

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post11-11-2019 07:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Doing some diggin around here about a possible engine swap. Found a Pontiac with a 3800SC for a reasonable price. Problem - no tags and 200km away. Supposedly it runs good tho. Dunno. Anyway, back to engine weights. For whatever it is worth here is what Wikipedia says

3800 - 392 lbs - dry weight

Duke - 375lbs dry weight

Ecotec - 306 to 331 dry weight

2.6 V6 - no weight given

Thus the 3800 (without supercharger?) is only 17 lbs heavier than the Duke. The range of weights for the Ecotec are (i presume) are with or without turbocharger/supercharger.

Just in case anyone cares...

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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