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Preparing my Fiero for an engine swap by longjonsilver
Started on: 05-07-2018 06:59 PM
Replies: 128 (4173 views)
Last post by: longjonsilver on 04-01-2020 07:31 AM
pmbrunelle
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Report this Post04-03-2019 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You have to realize that the main parts (gears, shafts, bearings) of transmissions are expected to die from fatigue of the metals.

After a certain number of cycles at a certain stress level, the metal breaks. The fatigue life of a particular piece of metal is a statistical thing... it can vary quite a lot. Some pieces can last a long time, some pieces a short time.

When designing something like this, you want the stress level low enough so that even the least fatigue-resistant part can last for the life of the car. Practically speaking, this means that transmissions are overbuilt, to avoid the possibility that any of them break due to a component having a shorter-than-average (but still "normal") fatigue life.

How overbuilt? I am not presently involved in transmissions, but for the type of part I am involved with, our customer's (an OEM) expectation is that not more than 50 units / 1 000 000 produced fail while on warranty.

For a single part on the vehicle, the failure rate needs to be this low, otherwise, if the thousands of parts on a car each had a failure rate of 0.1% while on warranty, the car would be in the shop all the time, the end-user would be frustrated, and it would cost everyone involved a bunch of money.

So, that's automotive supplier logic.

********************************************************************************

Now, I put on my weekend tuner hat... I'm souping up my Fiero engine. I expect to have a bunch more torque than stock, lets say 280 lb*ft.

I "refreshed" my Muncie, and I made sure to use the 85-86 V6 ribbed case, but I have done zero mods to improve the torque handling. So it still has the 170 lb*ft GM "rating".

Obviously, I'll be overloading this transmission, but I'm taking a gamble. Unless I am unlucky and I happen to have "short fatigue life" parts in my transmission, it probably could last, due to the "overbuilding" that I mentioned in the first part of this post. Archie implicitly sells V8 kits based on this premise.

Maybe there's a 1 in 3 chance (I don't know what the odds are; this is a guess) that my Muncie will blow in the first three years of operation with the souped-up engine, but I'm willing to roll the dice.

This is a project car; I accept that kind of failure rate. I have another vehicle as a daily driver, and I like being in the garage working on my Fiero anyway.

********************************************************************************

That's basically the difference between racer torque ratings and OEM torque ratings.
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wftb
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Report this Post04-04-2019 07:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The f35 got a bad rep on the old ecotec forum as being failure prone when used with built engines. The f23 has been used successfully behind 3800 turbo motors on this forum. I f you compare a f23 to any fiero tranny the difference is obvious. Why the low rating is a mystery to me. But my f23 has been beat on for ten years now and it still works as well as the day it was installed. One thing to know is there are 2 versions of the f35 5 speed. The first was used in the supercharged SS Cobalt and has axles compatable with Fiero hubs and transmissions. The second version was used with the turbocharged Cobalt SS and uses axles with different spline counts and bigger diameter shafts and will not fit Fiero transaxles or hubs. F23 transaxles from Cobalts will fit Fiero hubs and are simple short/long axle setup rather than the f35's that both use a jackshaft and equal length axles.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-04-2019).]

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longjonsilver
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Ecotecs with the F23 tranny are selling on Kijiji for $150C on up. Dime a dozen. But the LE5 is harder to find. Problem is shipping as most i see are in Ontario, and i'm moving east farther from the center of action.
jon

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Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post04-14-2019 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FWIW, I have a failed F23 in a 2006 Saturn Ion with the 2.2L engine at 285,000 km (177,000 miles). It just grinds in 2nd gear position. Not driven hard & lots of highway use.
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longjonsilver
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Report this Post05-10-2019 08:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Lotsa 2.2 ecotec motors to choose from. i'm leaning ecotec because of gas prices and handling. Might just buy a wreck and get to work some winter. Gotta prove myself tho first by figuring out the franken harness for my headlignt motors. New heavy gauge battery cables are in order too. The radiator is a lot heavier and with the battery under the headlight; both projects done about the same time - winter. The car handles noticibly better at high speed with little to no change in low speed handling. Of course new tires (and GT wheels) help the handling. i don't want to find out what effects a heavier motor in back will do to the carz handling. Its one of those things you know when driving aircooled VWs and Fieros much of your life. In additin, i am convinced that the GT front end has less uplift than the formula or bumperpad front ends do. Just my thots your mileage may vary.
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longjonsilver
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Report this Post06-30-2019 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, we got moved in to our new house in Halifax NS, and i want to get Freya registered. She needs the cat put back in. No visual inspections here, they use a heat gun to see if it is working. So i decided to reinstall the cat. Went in easy, the Canadian Tire exhaust pipe, slipped right in and when i started her up she purred like a kitten. Now i need to weld her. Started to wire in a welding plug, and lost the screw for the ground wire. Trying to find it with a magnet. Frustrating and due to my own stupidity. She made the drive from Montreal with no problems. Ran like a champ. i don't expect any problems with the safety inspection. Gotta check the lights tho before.
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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i fitted the cat and she ran good before being welded. Googled muffler shops and took it to the highest rated one. Wouldn't give me a price, said they had to put it on a lift first. They welded it and charged me only $34. Such a deal. Also told me that 84 Fieros dont need a cat to pass safety. Guy showed me on the government website where pre 91 vehicles are exempt. All that for nothin. Still Freya runs good.
jon
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Initial.F
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Report this Post07-10-2019 06:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Initial.FClick Here to Email Initial.FSend a Private Message to Initial.FEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My very first swap
A very old build thread....My swap has been majorly revised....this would be the first time this engine was installed.

I now use a black and red theme.

[This message has been edited by Initial.F (edited 07-10-2019).]

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post07-10-2019 06:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice looking swap.

 
quote
Originally posted by Initial.F:

My very first swap
A very old build thread....My swap has been majorly revised....this would be the first time this engine was installed.

I now use a black and red theme.



------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post08-25-2019 07:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i have had difficulty finding a headlight wiring harness for my Gen 2 headlight motors, so i have to hand crank them up. Altho i have an 84 i put in the Gen 2 headlight motors because my Gen 1 motors screwed up twice. The first time was because of the green sand, and the second time was because of the switch deciding to turn on one night while i was sleeping and run until i got up in the morning. i came into the garage and wondered what the hum was all about. Well, anyway, i swapped in the Gen 2 motors that a friend had given me - 4 motors actually - two of which have the Rodney Dickman brass gears. Hey, such a deal! The old motors were not worth rebuilding because the hand crank never worked from day one and i bot this car new at Peracchi Pontiac. People say you have to crank them alot - well, how about 15 minutes, is that enuf?

Anyway, i have to crank my new Gen 2 motors up and down by hand which is a pain. Thinking about how the Gen 1 motors have a couple of holes where you can put in a special tool to speed up the process, i looked in my tool chest to see what i could find. A 27mm socket and a speed wrench do the trick quite well actually. The 6 point socket works, but a 12 point socket would be better. The 6 point didn't slip, but i worried that it might. Anyhoo, here is a pic of my "new" headlight motor speed tool.




Please pardon the bad photography, my phone takes bad pics sometimes, especially up close, and my android file transfer to my mac couldn't find my pics so i had to take a screenshot of the pic, download it to my mac and then take another screenshot of the screenshot to eliminate the border from the phone. Perhaps you will get the idea anyway.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Projects for this coming winter.

Door projects
Repair door handle on passenger side
Install new dew wipes both sides
Fight rattles and squeeks both sides
New bushings on drivers side

Electrical
Rewire headlight harness to accomodate the Gen 2 motors
Install new condensers in tachometer
Install new condensers in intermtttant wiper board

Interior
Install new seat covers drivers side

Doable if i can get the soldering to flow right

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Will a sealed lead acid battery leak? i moved my battery under the passenger headlight and my battery started to corrode my battery box and horn. i need something that absolutely won't leak acid and corrode. Do i have to spend extra for an AGM battery?
thanks
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post11-03-2019 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, a poverty battery will be prone to having acid leaking out the top and running down the sides onto stuff.

AGM is the way to go to avoid that. They can even be installed sideways and electrolyte won't come out.

Otherwise, you can manage the acid situation, such as with a plastic battery tray with a drain pipe to the ground.
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longjonsilver
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Report this Post11-03-2019 08:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
AGM is the way to go to avoid that. They can even be installed sideways and electrolyte won't come out.


Are you done driving for the year, or are you going to continue to drive until winter tires are required? i'm gonna drive till they salt the roads. i have been using Charlie's (my 92 S10) battery in Freya but i gotta get Charlie on the road. The Surete de Quebec pulled me over just outside of montreal and gave me 48 hours to get off the road. Charlie is sitting in the driveway undergoing repairs and soon will be ready for a safety inspection here in NS. That is why i need to buy a new battery for Freya - and the fact that there is corrosion starting on my new battery box and Caddy horn.

BCI group 75 is what is specified for the 85 2m4 and it will fit fine in my battery box, but some places don't have an AGM. Costco has a good guarantee and ships to your door, but i am unable to find if they carry one. Wallmart doesn't carry a group 75 AGM, neither does Canadian Tire.

So i might have to reverse my leads so that the hot is on the right altho that puts it closer to the headlight door. Dunno what to do. So i'm looking for a vehicle that has a battery that will fit, left hand positive and AGM.

Other batteries that are 9 1/16 long to fit my battery box are 25, 35, 51, 72, 73, 85, 86 (some are 9 3/8). Gonna go to Walmart tomorrow and search thru their hardcopy BOOK and try to find a vehicle that has a battery that will work that has an AGM.

https://www.gglotus.org/ggt...battery-bci-size.htm

We had a great run this year, 6 cars, and some more are in the garage, and the owners promise that they will come out next year. NS has no Fiero club, and has not had a run in as long as anyone can remember. So this was a great success. Good talking to you there in my old hometown.
blessings
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post11-04-2019 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Optima has a 75/25 battery:
https://www.optimabatteries...top-starting-battery

I guess it's just a matter of finding an Optima retailer. It may be more of a "tuner shop" thing than something readily available at the big box stores.

As far as "car clubs" go, people initially come to the group because of an interest in a particular car, but after some time (at least for those who stick around), it becomes more about socializing with the other folks in a more general sense. In Club Fiero Montréal, we have one regular member who hasn't had a Fiero for years, but still shows up to meet with us.
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longjonsilver
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Doing some diggin around here about a possible engine swap. Found a Pontiac with a 3800SC for a reasonable price. Problem - no tags and 200km away. Supposedly it runs good tho. Dunno. Anyway, back to engine weights. For whatever it is worth here is what Wikipedia says

3800 - 392 lbs - dry weight

Duke - 375lbs dry weight

Ecotec - 306 to 331 dry weight

2.6 V6 - no weight given

Thus the 3800 (without supercharger?) is only 17 lbs heavier than the Duke. The range of weights for the Ecotec are (i presume) are with or without turbocharger/supercharger.

Just in case anyone cares...

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

i'm thinkin of this motor,

ive tried a bunch of different ways to post this screenshot, but i don't succeed.

free anonymous image sharing

There we go, now that wasn't so hard was it?

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 11-24-2019).]

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longjonsilver
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Thirty six years ago today, Dec 10th, 1983, i went to Peracchi Pontiac in Fresno California and i bought a Fiero, which we now know as Freya. The salesman was a freckle faced, red haired, black man by the name of Danny Green. The sales manager thought that Mr. Green was not doing a good job, so he came in and tried to pressure me. i thot that he was a cocky arse and wouldn't have bought a car from him for all the gasoline in Arabia. i walked out of the dealership and as i was heading for my car - a blue 85 El Camino - i saw Mr. Green, and he said "Where are you going?" i told him that i didn't like the sales manager and would never buy a car from him. He said "C'mon, i'll get a chit for some gas and we will go for another ride." i drove Freya so hard in some corners that i scared him. Remember this was with 85 series tourist tires on 13" wheels and rubber bushings everywhere. Well, anyway i bought the car, and as we were going in to the dealership to finish the deal he told me to be sure and keep the keys or someone else would buy her. i laughed. As we were coming out some people were in my car and the salesman was asking where the keys were. i said to get out of my car and here were the keys in my hand. Anyway, Freya came with the "handling package" which i now know means that she had the stiffest springs ever put in a Fiero, a leather wrapped steering wheel, a tighter steering box and alloy wheels. Everywhere i went people wondered what she was and many thot that she was a Porsche. Fiero owners got a LOT of attention in 1984, and i still get a lot of looks. Course, now she has poly bushings everywhere, 15" wheels with performance tires, my own performance alignment, front battery and a vented hood. In celebration of her 36th birthday, i drove her to Second Lake trail to take the dog for a walk, of course it rained hard last nite and i believe all the salt is off the roads, at least around here where the ditches are deep and well drained. Anyway, all the best to my fellow Fiero owners and Happy Birthday, Freya!

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post12-10-2019 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How did you have an 85 El Camino in 1983?
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longjonsilver
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quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

How did you have an 85 El Camino in 1983?


Typo. Should read 1965 El Camino. Had the 283 V8 (?) and three on the tree converted to four on the floor. i was in the process of making a hot rod out of it when i found that there was 2" of salty dirt in the bottom of the doors and they were almost rusted out. They say there is no rust in California - well this car had been out in the "west side" of the valley and there used to be a lot of dust storms and the dirt there is full of alkali from when they used to grow wheat there. The doors got full of dirt, the rains leaked thru the dew wipes into the door, and voila! there was rust. At that point i decided to sell the car.

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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wftb
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Report this Post12-11-2019 10:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
36 years with a car that you bought from new is amazing. I thought the 20 years I have had my Fiero was a long time. You know you are getting old when the furniture you made in your early 20's is now considered antique.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-11-2019).]

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quote
Originally posted by wftb:

36 years with a car that you bought from new is amazing. I thought the 20 years I have had my Fiero was a long time. You know you are getting old when the furniture you made in your early 20's is now considered antique.


Yes, 20 years with a car is a long time, in this era of instant gratification and debt, and 36 years is insane i guess.
But i always ask myself "What other car would i rather have?". They are either not as fun or too expensive to buy or repair, or both. So why change? You have said that the Fiero is the best platform for a hotrod, and i agree. Why go to an old chassis design? i would like more power, and that is coming. i really would like an ecotec but i am having a hard time finding the deal that i need to get it done. There is a 3800SC nearby and it is cheap. Gonna check it out and see what we can do. i already have the tranny for it, a 4 speed with the 3.35 final drive gear - the so called economy transmission from 84, like having a 5 speed without the first gear. heh heh
jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i really would like an ecotec but i am having a hard time finding the deal that i need to get it done. There is a 3800SC nearby and it is cheap.


I thought that Ecotecs were everywhere, being GM's goto econobox engine for quite a while...

In case you aren't aware of this jewel, I present:
http://www.car-part.com/

I wouldn't focus too much on the purchase price of the engine itself... I feel like the costs to get a donor engine running in a car would dwarf the engine's purchase price, so consider the whole picture.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i already have the tranny for it, a 4 speed with the 3.35 final drive gear - the so called economy transmission from 84, like having a 5 speed without the first gear. heh heh


If you do want to use your MY8 Econo transmission with a strong engine, if it's not already done, you may want to stuff its innards into a V6 Fiero case:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum9/HTML/000014.html
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quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


If you do want to use your MY8 Econo transmission with a strong engine, if it's not already done, you may want to stuff its innards into a V6 Fiero case:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum9/HTML/000014.html


Thanks pmbrunelle: that is a really informative write up on the tranny. i just might do what you suggest, because my game plan is to buy the car this winter, pull the engine and stuff ( or just pull the engine and stuff at the site there 2 hours away ) and then prep the engine (and tranny?), build the harness, and the exhaust, and the motor mount bracket, and the whatever brackets (dog bone, alternator relocation? and power steering delete) and whatever mods to the engine i do (port the exhaust manifold, the intake manifold and the supercharger). So that most of the work has been done before i drop the duke, so that Freya is out of commission as short a time as possible - so i can definitely get her done over a winter, whether next winter or even the one after that. Maybe even Fieroflyer can burn me a chip knowing the mods that i have done and the tranny that i am using so that she will start and run without the vats hassle.

And yes, i know about Car parts dot com, but i find that things are expensive and usually available only in Ontario or the states. i have found some things there for my S10 that i might pick up next summer in N Carolina. i have been looking on Kijiji for 2 years for an ecotec, and they come up in Alberta, never around here. So i thot why not a 3800SC which was for sale for $300 for everything, and i contacted the guy only to find out that he couldn't sell it so he gave it away. Another participant, the owner of Ann, an 85 2M4, suggested i buy her car that she had to swap in the 3800 SC for $200, because either she didn't have the money, time, ability or desire to complete the swap. So a Formula friend, the owner of Fiona, and i plan on going down and checking out ol Betsy and see if her 3800 is in good condition and we want to do the deal. She says that i can pull the engine there and the other stuff as well.

Questions: how long will it take to pull and engine and the attendant stuff that i will need? What all do i need to pull? Where is the computer on a Grand Prix GTP with Series 2, and what do i need to get that is not in the engine compartment?

thanks
jon

edit: reading the rest of the thread (comments) the daunting thing is the shimming. Where to get shims? i can't imagine the local auto parts having them! Perhaps i will look for a 4 speed V6 tranny.


------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 12-13-2019).]

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quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Maybe even Fieroflyer can burn me a chip knowing the mods that i have done and the tranny that i am using so that she will start and run without the vats hassle.

My buddy who is currently doing a Fiero engine swap has been getting the runaround with Dan for his wiring harness, while the computer tuning with Ryan has been smooth sailing. So between those two folks, I know who I'd choose if I had computer modifications to do...

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Another participant, the owner of Ann, an 85 2M4, suggested i buy her car that she had to swap in the 3800 SC for $200, because either she didn't have the money, time, ability or desire to complete the swap. So a Formula friend, the owner of Fiona, and i plan on going down and checking out ol Betsy and see if her 3800 is in good condition and we want to do the deal. She says that i can pull the engine there and the other stuff as well.

Does every car you meet get a human name?

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Questions: how long will it take to pull and engine and the attendant stuff that i will need? What all do i need to pull? Where is the computer on a Grand Prix GTP with Series 2, and what do i need to get that is not in the engine compartment?

No idea, that's a question for a 3800 guy.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
edit: reading the rest of the thread (comments) the daunting thing is the shimming. Where to get shims? i can't imagine the local auto parts having them! Perhaps i will look for a 4 speed V6 tranny.


I took apart three Muncies to make one good one; from the three of them, I had the shims I needed for the polygamous love-child.

Will compiled a list of part numbers: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=3770 (read the thread to the end)
Otherwise, you can have a shim ground thinner with a local machine shop that has a surface grinder.
If you need to improvise something thicker, then said machine shop may be able to make something from scratch, or you could have a bearing cup shaved down into a shim.
Some improvisation may be required.

PM-about-to-be-sent.
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quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
My buddy who is currently doing a Fiero engine swap has been getting the runaround with Dan for his wiring harness, while the computer tuning with Ryan has been smooth sailing. So between those two folks, I know who I'd choose if I had computer modifications to do...


Fieroflyer is Ryan? i plan on doing my own harness. It seems daunting at first but i think that it can be figured out with some patience, and by NOT taking things too far apart when i pull the motor - ie. leaving the harness attached at as many points as i can.


 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:Does every car you meet get a human name?
.

Well, i don't name them the people do. My wife and i have a history of naming our cars. My wife's green Toyoter was Sally, then we had Madame Blueberry - a Ford Escort, then the Silver Bullet - a Mazda 5 and now she has Grace, a 2004 Corolla that we bot a year ago from a rich old woman in Westmount, the SAAQ had pulled her drivers license and the family didn't want the car. Ultimate grandma car - 53K kilometers, rust proofed, always garaged, one owner, serviced at the local gas station, looked new inside, a few bumps outside. Anyway, i named Freya because of the prominate F and R in Fiero - let's see a womens name with an F and an R in it, so Freya was her name. They always said that the Fiero was a girls car - i guess a guys car would have had a V8 or something, so i just went with it - my Fiero is female. Then when i moved here, i met Steve with his red Formula and we talked for over an hour at the gas station. He kind of confessed that he calls his Formula, Fiona. i then found out that the owner of the 3800 donor calls her Fiero, Ann, (see what you can learn on Facebook). A guy at church saw Freya and approached me and let me know that he is building a Fiero and calls her Lucy. Then i met a lady at the park that used to have a Pontiac and she called her Betsy, so when i saw the Grand Prix for sale, she looked like a Betsy and she is old, so ol Betsy. So lots of people here in NS name their cars, and i guess i sort of fit in.


 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I took apart three Muncies to make one good one; from the three of them, I had the shims I needed for the polygamous love-child.

Will compiled a list of part numbers: http://www.realfierotech.co...topic.php?f=3&t=3770 (read the thread to the end)
Otherwise, you can have a shim ground thinner with a local machine shop that has a surface grinder.
If you need to improvise something thicker, then said machine shop may be able to make something from scratch, or you could have a bearing cup shaved down into a shim.
Some improvisation may be required.


Thanks, i am currently running a 4 speed muncie in my 84GT with the 4.11 final drive ratio - the performance transmission in the day. But i don't wanna tear it apart for shims, but i might have enuf from the other two. i put in a request for a 4 speed from a V6 (is that the M17?) here on Eastern Canada Fiero Owners on Facebook. Perhaps someone will have one, i hear he has his own Fiero wrecking yard. A guy came on a week ago from here in Lower Sackville and said he was looking for a Fiero but all he could find was rusted junk or super expensive garage Queens. Within 24 hours three people were offering him a deal(?). So i bet one will turn up.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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Fieroflyer is Dan.
I have no comment.

Darthfiero is Ryan.
He is the go-to guy for computer tuning and great service!

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Thanks OleJoeDad and PMBrunelle, a guy to burn a chip and part numbers for Chrysler shims will make this job doable. i've got ads on Kijiji and Facebook for the M17 tranny.

Blessings

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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Found an M17 tranny for $100C with about 200K clicks on it. Gonna spring for it. Cuppla questions for y'all. i have been reading ALOT on the 3800 threads and i read about the ECM and the PCM. i think that the ECM is the "computer" no? Do i just replace the Fiero computer with the ECM of the 3800? What is the PCM? And where is it located on the Grand Prix? i pulled a cuppla C500s and C203 modules from Fieros but i have yet to find a 3800 swap thread that describes in detail how they are joined to the 3800 wiring harness. i get how the C500 is in the Fiero engine compartment, but how does one route wires to the C203 which is in the Fiero center console?

So many questions, so little time.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Found an M17 tranny for $100C with about 200K clicks on it. Gonna spring for it.

Be sure to disassemble and inspect the differential. Among the three Muncies I took apart, none of them had a differential in good health. Even the one that came from a low-mile Iron Duke car.

A chewed up cross pin:


Damaged planetary gear teeth:


Cracks (highlighted in red) on a planetary gear:


 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i have been reading ALOT on the 3800 threads and i read about the ECM and the PCM. i think that the ECM is the "computer" no?

For some cars equipped with automatic transmissions, GM has used a separate Engine Control Module (ECM) and Transmission Control Module (TCM).
GM has also had an architecture where the entire powertrain (engine + auto trans) was controlled by a single brain; the Powertrain Control Module (PCM).

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
Do i just replace the Fiero computer with the ECM of the 3800?

Since you'll be using a manual transmission, you should only need the 3800 ECM, or PCM, as applicable.

You'll remove the Fiero computer from Freya, since without a Fiero engine to run, said computer no longer has any purpose.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i have yet to find a 3800 swap thread that describes in detail how they are joined to the 3800 wiring harness.

I don't think there exists a paint-by-numbers sort of guide to tell you how to merge the Fiero harness with a swap engine harness. This question is "complex".

An automotive wiring harness is a collection of simple circuits that are taped/bundled together in a neat manner. To solve this puzzle, you must study one wire (or circuit) at a time. Focusing on a single wire, you can figure out where each end should go (engine, sensor, chassis, whatever), and what path it should follow. Complex puzzles are solved by breaking them down into bite-sized chunks.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i get how the C500 is in the Fiero engine compartment

Be aware that the C500 location is different between 84 Fieros like Freya and 85-88... so watch what you're reading.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
but how does one route wires to the C203 which is in the Fiero center console?

Here is the stock wiring harness from my 85 Fiero L'enfant de la bibite:


The red arrow is pointing at the firewall pass-through. It's more or less of a "grommet" to keep the wires from chafing in the firewall cutout. The pass-through is made of plastic, and it is filled with hot glue. To soften the hot glue enough to pull out or feed through a wire, I submerge the pass-through in a pot of boiling water.

By the way, I don't have WhatsApp. I read that's a smartphone thing, whereas I have a flip cell phone, and a landline.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 12-20-2019).]

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quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:Be sure to disassemble and inspect the differential. Among the three Muncies I took apart, none of them had a differential in good health. Even the one that came from a low-mile Iron Duke car.


i've got a line on a V6 4 speed Muncie, the M17, i believe, along with a good drivers seat that also has the headrest speakers in it. Can't lose my speakers! From Bloozeberry on this forum. Good guy, seems to have his own Fiero junkyard, repair facility and storage unit. He came on our run last September. Gonna make the 75 min drive up to his place when we can arrange a time with him. Hopefully from the M19, the M17 and the MY8 trannies that i will have i can find a differential that is in good shape.

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:For some cars equipped with automatic transmissions, GM has used a separate Engine Control Module (ECM) and Transmission Control Module (TCM).
GM has also had an architecture where the entire powertrain (engine + auto trans) was controlled by a single brain; the Powertrain Control Module (PCM).


Regardless of what it is called, the computer is usually under the air box on the Grand Prix, or so they say.... Does it look like the computer on the Fiero? i have also read that there are no wires leading thru the firewall on the GP that i will need, so they can be cut off. Does anyone know if this is so?

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

The pass-through is made of plastic, and it is filled with hot glue. To soften the hot glue enough to pull out or feed through a wire, I submerge the pass-through in a pot of boiling water.


i have both the C500 and C203 connections from a car in Mascouche - too bad i haven't found any junkyards with Fieroz around here. i imagine that the C203 will plug right into the ECM of the CP which will be located under the center console like in the Fiero. And i imagine that the only wires that will need to be pulled thru the firewall of Freya will be those headed to the C203. No?

(RANT: i have Charlie, a 92 S10, and Charlie has had all three (count em 1,2,3 door handles broke - i've replaced both handles and now the drivers one is broken. Freyaz passengers door handle is also broken - i notice that the handles are exactly the same between the Fiero and the S10. Why can't GM make a decent door handle? END RANT)

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I don't think there exists a paint-by-numbers sort of guide to tell you how to merge the Fiero harness with a swap engine harness. This question is "complex".
To solve this puzzle, you must study one wire (or circuit) at a time. Complex puzzles are solved by breaking them down into bite-sized chunks.


So i guess i get to know my car better than i currently do. i get the opportunity to solve another puzzle. OR i get to pay the $700 big bucks for a harness. My wife only lets me play with my car if she (Freya) doesn't cost too much. $700 for something i theoretically can do myself is TOO much. Slow down, jon, prends ton temps, une circuit à la fois. i plan on pulling the engine with the harness intact, dropping it out the bottom of the car, with the cradle and leaving the harness attached as much as possible and pulling everything on the firewall that is attached to the harness. At this point, i really don't care what the engine bay looks like, because it can't possibly look worse than what i have now, altho the Duke still runs good, uses oil and bad mileage for a 4 banger, but runs good. One of the few esthetic things that i plan on doing (other than general cleaning) is to paint the valve covers and supercharger the original red of the V6 Fiero intake plenum. Somewhere on PFF i have read that there is a Chrysler paint that almost perfectly matches the Pontiac red. i'm gonna use it. Anyway, i really don't care if the wires are ugly or not, that stuff can be done later, after i experience the acceleration. heh heh

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
my 85 Fiero L'enfant de la bibite


So you name your cars too? Or just your Fiero? So, you are saying that you were bitten by the Fiero bug? i was bitten in the early 80's when i read a blurb in a hot rod mag, a spy reported that Pontiac was making a mid engine, 4 wheel independant suspension, 4 wheel disc brake, rack and pinion steering sports car. That was probably 1982. When i heard that they were already in town (arrived just days before) i went to the dealer and bot one. Still have her. Been quite a ride.

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
i have both the C500 and C203 connections from a car in Mascouche - too bad i haven't found any junkyards with Fieroz around here. i imagine that the C203 will plug right into the ECM of the CP which will be located under the center console like in the Fiero.

I'm confused; your Fiero should already have C500 and C203 connections. The swap wiring would simply re-use the connectors that you already have in Freya. You shouldn't need other ones, unless your goal is to minimize downtime and build up an entire wiring harness while keeping Freya driveable.

C203 does not plug into the ECM; it is a connector linking the engine harness to the wiring of the chassis.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
And i imagine that the only wires that will need to be pulled thru the firewall of Freya will be those headed to the C203. No?

Yes, generally speaking.

If you choose to install your ECM in the stock location, then the wires linking the ECM to the engine will also go through the firewall.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
One of the few esthetic things that i plan on doing (other than general cleaning) is to paint the valve covers and supercharger the original red of the V6 Fiero intake plenum. Somewhere on PFF i have read that there is a Chrysler paint that almost perfectly matches the Pontiac red. i'm gonna use it.

I actually bought a can of single-stage urethane paint (better quality than rattle-can). I picked a colour that I liked from a book of paint swatches; I wasn't overly focused on getting the 100% stock match.
If you happen to swing by here, I could shoot your parts with the leftover paint.

Here you can see the colour:
https://www.fieromontreal.c...86.msg35920#msg35920
Colour rendering is not good, as that is with the garage's fluorescent lighting.

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
So you name your cars too? Or just your Fiero? So, you are saying that you were bitten by the Fiero bug?

L'enfant de la bibite is the name of my current Fiero. He/she (sex undetermined) has parts originating from my first Fiero, La bibite jaune.

My daily is nameless... poor 2007 Ford Ranger.
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quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
The swap wiring would simply re-use the connectors that you already have in Freya. You shouldn't need other ones, unless your goal is to minimize downtime and build up an entire wiring harness while keeping Freya driveable.


Exactly. And i don't wanna pull a good running Duke just to have a dead car forever. Not fun. Altho i mite have bibites in the system, at least i have a chance of driving quick. i also plan on welding up the exhaust (tacked only) so that it is (almost) ready to go in BEFORE i pull the Duke. Same for the motor mounts and the dog bone, and the alternator.....

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
C203 does not plug into the ECM; it is a connector linking the engine harness to the wiring of the chassis.


Its been so long since i pulled the parts that i forgot how they went in. i do remember that the first C203 connector that i pulled was a crispy critter and so i had to pull another from one of the three cars in the yard. i have fond memories of pulling parts in that yard. My door handle broke and i pulled one off of the purple Fiero there, and have yet to install it, as i drove all last year with a broken passenger door handle.

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I actually bought a can of single-stage urethane paint (better quality than rattle-can). I picked a colour that I liked from a book of paint swatches; I wasn't overly focused on getting the 100% stock match.


Urethane paint? hmmm i bot the purple spray gun last time i was in the states at Harbor Freight, and i plan on running it off my little compressor. At some point i gotta do my front facia too, the job was never very well done as the white was so thin that it barely covered the grey primer, and now it has lost its shine. i found this link: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090219-2-084913.html

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
If you happen to swing by here, I could shoot your parts with the leftover paint.


Thanks, but it might be years before i'm back in Montreal again. Talked to my younger son last nite, and he went back to Mascouche to eat dinner, but he didn't swing by the old house. i've heard occasionally from friends in the neighborhood but imho i would be fun to drive around and see, but its 12-15 hours away, so its down the list of 2dooz.

jon

edit: combien de cheveaux do you expect that you will get with that turbo? You're writing your own code for the megasquirt? Wow! thats way over my head.
------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 12-23-2019).]

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Report this Post12-23-2019 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I choose not to set myself a fixed number for an hp target... that way I can't be disappointed if I don't meet the objective.

My engine should be competitive with a stock 3800SC, but not with a 3800SC that's been souped-up.

For me it's more about the building and head-scratching in the garage than it is about the end-product.
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Report this Post12-23-2019 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
My engine should be competitive with a stock 3800SC, but not with a 3800SC that's been souped-up.

For me it's more about the building and head-scratching in the garage than it is about the end-product.


i'm not gonna do a whole lot of power improvements. Just porting the exhaust, intake and supercharger. Thats enuf for me. No smaller pulley, cam or loud exhaust. No big injectors. i also enjoy the challenge of doing it myself, that was the deal with my wife, play with my car but do it cheap. Happy wife, happy life.

jon

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Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post01-01-2020 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


I picked this guy up on sale so that I could safely get my engine out of the car and into my truck to bring it home. This is a necessary first step of an engine swap.

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 01-04-2020).]

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Hidalgo
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Report this Post01-02-2020 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HidalgoSend a Private Message to HidalgoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The friend of pmbrunelle who is still waiting for his harness from Dan is me. I paid him on September 5th, 2019, and I'm still waiting for my harness. At the time, he told me it was ready to send, and that he would send it as soon as I paid him, so I did. When I still didn't have it several weeks later, he said he checked with Canada Post and they said they lost the package. However, he never sent me a tracking number, so I can't confirm the veracity of that claim. Nonetheless, he said it was his responsibility, and that he would make me another harness and send it to me, free of charge. On November 27th, 2019, he told me that second harness was ready and that it would be out in the mail the following day. More than one month later, I still haven't received that one, either. I am now starting to make alternate plans for a harness, since my 3500 LZ4 swap is nearing completion. This is very upsetting since I sent Dan 430$CAD, my two harness cores, and two heat shield sleeves from Rodney Dickman. And so, at the present time, I'm afraid I unfortunately can't recommend doing business with him. I will be glad to change this post or post an update on my situation if I either get my new swap harness or a full refund, along with my harness cores and heat shield sleeves.

[This message has been edited by Hidalgo (edited 01-02-2020).]

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post01-02-2020 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i'm sorry to hear of your problems with your harness. For better or worse, i have decided to make my own, even if that means that the harness is ugly and poorly routed, just as long as it works.

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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wftb
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Report this Post01-03-2020 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hidalgo:

The friend of pmbrunelle who is still waiting for his harness from Dan is me. I paid him on September 5th, 2019, and I'm still waiting for my harness. At the time, he told me it was ready to send, and that he would send it as soon as I paid him, so I did. When I still didn't have it several weeks later, he said he checked with Canada Post and they said they lost the package. However, he never sent me a tracking number, so I can't confirm the veracity of that claim. Nonetheless, he said it was his responsibility, and that he would make me another harness and send it to me, free of charge. On November 27th, 2019, he told me that second harness was ready and that it would be out in the mail the following day. More than one month later, I still haven't received that one, either. I am now starting to make alternate plans for a harness, since my 3500 LZ4 swap is nearing completion. This is very upsetting since I sent Dan 430$CAD, my two harness cores, and two heat shield sleeves from Rodney Dickman. And so, at the present time, I'm afraid I unfortunately can't recommend doing business with him. I will be glad to change this post or post an update on my situation if I either get my new swap harness or a full refund, along with my harness cores and heat shield sleeves.



Anytime I sell something to anyone over Kijijii or here in the mall I insure it for the full value and text a picture of the tracking code to the buyer. That way if the shipper loses it neither me or the buyer are out of pocket. I do not know what is up with Dan but he needs to stop pulling scams like this. None of my shipments have ever been lost.

But somewhere on this forum there is a step by step guide to build a wiring harness for a 3800 swap. Sorry I do not remember the title or who posted it.

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86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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longjonsilver
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Report this Post03-02-2020 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for longjonsilverClick Here to visit longjonsilver's HomePageClick Here to Email longjonsilverSend a Private Message to longjonsilverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i've got my outer and inner door skins off to replace the door handle, and i am wondering what it is that rattles when i close the door. It seems to me that the only things that could rattle are the rods linking the outer lock, the handle and the inner door lock with the latch. i am planning on using foam, like wetsuit material from a mouse pad or something to cushion the rattle. Whatcha think?

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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