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JohnWPB 1986 GT Fastback worklog by JohnWPB
Started on: 12-03-2010 12:28 AM
Replies: 979 (35524 views)
Last post by: Danyel on 11-19-2017 05:18 PM
nosrac
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Report this Post07-11-2017 06:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So log LTFT and MAP(psi). I did NOT see any vacuum readings in your log. You should see negative and positive MAP values (vac and boost). I am not sure which MAP units you should log to see negative values but your log just showed positive MAP values.

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wgpierce
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Report this Post07-11-2017 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wgpierceSend a Private Message to wgpierceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

But have you actually measured resistance of those new wires? It's not like there's never been a new bad plug wire. However, unlikely there are 3 bad ones in the set but with your luck anything is possible

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-11-2017 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by wgpierce:

However, unlikely there are 3 bad ones in the set but with your luck anything is possible


That is the most truth that has been spoken so far in this 23 page long thread! ! ! ! ! !

I will check the plug wires, again, but I saw no signs of arcing or melted spots when I checked them a few days ago. I will also try to measure the length of each wire, and get an ohm reading based on the length and see if anything is way out of whack.

Yes, after I ran the MAP to the port under the snout, I did test drive it. Otherwise it would have made no sense to start looking for other tings

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-11-2017).]

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nosrac
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Report this Post07-12-2017 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/CASELearn.htm

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-12-2017 04:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:

http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/CASELearn.htm


Now I am further confused. It says for the PCM to detect misfires, a case learn must be done. My logs are showing Misfires.

To further confuse things a LOT: (Especially the last part in bold)

"The CASE LEARN procedure and related trouble code CAN BE DISABLED in a custom tune, but doing this also requires the misfire detection system (and P0300 misfire codes) be disabled as well. Doing this will remove the misfire detection abilities from the PCM's on-board diagnostics, but otherwise will not affect how the engine runs and performs. "

On another note, I hooked the MAP as well as the FPR to the port directly under the SC snout. I went to move the Durango to get the Fiero out of the driveway, and low and behold.... more BS. The key is not engaging the ignition lock. The key goes in fine as always, but refuses to turn. I did the whole foot on the brake, make sure there is no tension on the steering wheel, and rattled the gear selector. I banged and prodded for about 15 minutes, so the test drive is off now well I look up a lock smith....... unreal.

EDIT TO ADD: He says it will be 30 minutes more, then I can get my Fiero out...

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-12-2017).]

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tshark
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Report this Post07-12-2017 06:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Disabling detection will not affect how a running engine performs.

The case learn handles the advance, fuel mixture, etc. Misfire detection is separate, because timing and fuel mixture aren't the only causes for misfires.

Your Fiero is infectious?

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Domtech
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Report this Post07-12-2017 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
Now I am further confused. It says for the PCM to detect misfires, a case learn must be done. My logs are showing Misfires.


Your pcm probably has a case learned stored, just not for your engine. A brand new pcm that does not have one stored yet will set a code and not be able to detect misfires.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-12-2017 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, that all makes sense. I had been told that a Case Learn was an over-rev protection thing. That it was necessary to cut off fuel in an over rev situation.

Sounds like something I need to do, before I do anything else.

I now have the vacuum split from the nozzle underneath the super charger snout, and tied into the FPR and the MAP directly.
The plugs are gapped at .45
I re-inspected the plug wires and they are still in new condition, and as mentioned, for 3 new wires to be bad would be virtually impossible. 1 maybe.... but 3... unlikely the cause of the issues.

After doing all of this, and taking it out for a test drive, still no further changes in its behavior.

Here is the latest log. I had a chance with no traffic on the road I was on, in the last 1 or 2 minutes of the log to decelerate to almost a stop, and then give about 1/2 throttle, and it would bog down and run very poorly. I did this a few times in the last minute or so of the data logging.

That is, if any of this really matters in the log, before I get the Case Learn done. I am surmising that the misfires reported could be inaccurate without the case learn.... right?

Anyhow HERE IS THE LATEST LOG.

I already had that "contagious" comment from this end, and to keep my car far away from their truck from now on!

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-12-2017).]

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-14-2017 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I forgot to mention, I did turn on the long term fuel logging.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-14-2017).]

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Domtech
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Report this Post07-14-2017 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow! if I'm reading that log right then your long term fuel trims are crazy negative. You might need to turn your fuel pressure down.

Edit:

I recommend you add a gauge on torque for long term fuel trim and keep adjusting your regulator until you can drive around and have the gauge stay at 0.

[This message has been edited by Domtech (edited 07-14-2017).]

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nosrac
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Report this Post07-14-2017 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Domtech:

Wow! if I'm reading that log right then your long term fuel trims are crazy negative. You might need to turn your fuel pressure down.


Yep, you car is Billionaire Rich. You "HAVE TO" get that number down to around -3. I would assume you are tuned for stock injectors but you are definitely getting too much fuel. If you turn down the FPR do you get less fuel?


Also play around with the commanded AFR to see if you can get that to display. You want to command 14.7 under normal driving conditions and ~11-12 under 45%-WOT.

[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 07-14-2017).]

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-15-2017 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Interesting..... I had so many comments saying I was not getting enough fuel, and it was due to the vacuum line. Turns out, it is the exact opposite, and is getting far too much fuel. I will see what I can figure out. There is a gauge built right into the regulator, and it stays between 50 and 55 PSI constantly. When I researched this engine, everything I found stated the engine is best at right around 52 PSI.

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Report this Post07-15-2017 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I think mine is more like 45 at idle. With how rich yours is running, it might have actually been closer to the right pressure under boost with the regulator hooked up wrong.

If this really is just from having the fuel pressure wrong and not from having a screwed up tune then dialing in the pressure using the LTFT gauge should get you working pretty well.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-15-2017 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, I added the LTFT as a gauge. Now that I know the number is supposed to hover close to 0, I can clearly see there is a problem. It was pointed out that I am running REALLY rich, so negative numbers are rich then. I never see it go lean while driving. The more I accelerate, the more rich it becomes. I adjusted the Fuel Pressure Regulator tonight, and it seemed to make no difference in how much the LTFT gauge was displaying.

I adjusted the FPR from one end to the other, with the engine running, and the LTFT still remained in the -20 or so area. I adjusted the FPR so low at one end, that I could not increase the throttle at all from idle without the engine stalling.

Its possible this FPR is bad, as I purchased THIS ONE from Amazon, and it was not that expensive.

This screen capture was taken cruising along at a steady 50MPH.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-15-2017).]

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-18-2017 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I got an email today from Ryan:

 
quote
Your PCM is tuned for stock 36lb injectors and a 96-98 L67 TB and MAF. However, I should mention that if you mistakenly got a TB from an L36 engine and installed that on yours, it would cause the fuel trims to read very negative like you are experiencing. I can’t remember – did you send me pictures of the throttle body before you installed it on the engine? If not, the only way I can tell which throttle body you got is if you remove it from the adapter and take a picture of the side showing the throttle butterfly valve.
Ryan Gick
Sinister Performance, LLC.


Doing a little research on Google, I found that the L36 is the naturally aspirated version of the 3800. It would make sense that the TB would be drastically different between the L32 Super Charged 3800 version and the L36 naturally aspirated 3800.

I just sent him 4 photos that I took of the Throttle Body when I disassembled it to clean and paint everything. This will either determine the problem, or at least rule out another thing.

Rear of the TB that attached to the adapter plate:



disassembled for cleaning and painting. I have placed the MAF and the TPS since this photo was taken.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-18-2017).]

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Report this Post07-18-2017 11:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The IAC looks rather filthy in that pic.

Fingers crossed that it's just the wrong TB causing your issues.

[This message has been edited by tshark (edited 07-18-2017).]

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:

The IAC looks rather filthy in that pic.

Fingers crossed that it's just the wrong TB causing your issues.



You got that right! This is what everything looked like when I originally disassembled the throttle body after getting the engine. I proceeded to clean everything with throttle body cleaner The IAC could cause some stumbling at idle, hard starts, and even stalling at idle. From what I understand though, it could in no way account for the extremely rich fuel mixture.

EDIT TO ADD:
I just did some more research tonight. Watched about 5 YouTube videos, (This one was particularly informative) and read a lot of how the IAC works, the range from cold to hot engine, and tolerances. I am going to test the range of the IAC tomorrow, as sometimes I do have to press the accelerator to get the engine to start. This is a symptom of the IAC not functioning properly.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-19-2017).]

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Domtech
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Report this Post07-19-2017 02:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

huh, that's an interesting MAF sensor. I haven't seen one with an angled plug like that. Doesn't look like the one on my l67.

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Report this Post07-19-2017 06:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hmmm. Almost seems like other parts should be compared. If the TB and MAF may be wrong, what else?

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Domtech:

huh, that's an interesting MAF sensor. I haven't seen one with an angled plug like that. Doesn't look like the one on my l67.


It was smashed against something with the PO. I replaced it with a new one.


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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by tshark:

Hmmm. Almost seems like other parts should be compared. If the TB and MAF may be wrong, what else?


The MAF is not wrong. Detailed photos were sent to Ryan so he could do the tune for the correct of 2 different varient MAF sensors that fit this TB.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-19-2017).]

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Phirewire
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Report this Post07-19-2017 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PhirewireClick Here to Email PhirewireSend a Private Message to PhirewireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:


You got that right! This is what everything looked like when I originally disassembled the throttle body after getting the engine. I proceeded to clean everything with throttle body cleaner The IAC could cause some stumbling at idle, hard starts, and even stalling at idle. From what I understand though, it could in no way account for the extremely rich fuel mixture.

EDIT TO ADD:
I just did some more research tonight. Watched about 5 YouTube videos, (This one was particularly informative) and read a lot of how the IAC works, the range from cold to hot engine, and tolerances. I am going to test the range of the IAC tomorrow, as sometimes I do have to press the accelerator to get the engine to start. This is a symptom of the IAC not functioning properly.




Someone else can correct me if wrong, was always told never to clean IAC with throttle body cleaner, or a MAF because it leaves a coating over the sensors and could cause issues.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 11:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Phirewire:
Someone else can correct me if wrong, was always told never to clean IAC with throttle body cleaner, or a MAF because it leaves a coating over the sensors and could cause issues.


I have definitely heard that for the MAF but not for the IAC. You just have to be careful with the IAC from what I understand, because it has a Teflon coating.

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nosrac
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Report this Post07-19-2017 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The L67(69mm) and L36(65mm) Throttle Bodies look the same but have different size openings.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:

The L67(69mm) and L36(65mm) Throttle Bodies look the same but have different size openings.



There is a way of telling from looking at the back, as Ryan wanted a photo so he could determine which throttle body I have.

When I purchase the engine, it came with a cardboard box with this throttle body, the adapter plate, a smaller pulley, and a pulley removal tool. I had no idea which throttle body this was by looking at it.

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ignorant prodigy
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Report this Post07-19-2017 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ignorant prodigyClick Here to Email ignorant prodigySend a Private Message to ignorant prodigyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Weren't you going with a N*/LQ4 maf at some point anyways?

------------------
87 Fiero GT- 98 L67 swap - (SOLD)
88 Fiero Formula- L67 swap in progress
T-Top 672 of 1252

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ignorant prodigy:

Weren't you going with a N*/LQ4 maf at some point anyways?


No, I was mistaken , and assumed that the TB that came with the engine was a N*. Ryan advised me with a stock 3800 SC, it would not

be worth changing everything out now for a N*. I want a very quick street car, and don't intend to be racing it.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 07-19-2017).]

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VanGTP5000
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Report this Post07-19-2017 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VanGTP5000Click Here to Email VanGTP5000Send a Private Message to VanGTP5000Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:


No, I was mistaken at one point, and assumed that the TB that came with the engine was a N*. Ryan advised me with a stock 3800 SC, it would no be worth changing everything out now for a N*. I want a very quick street car, and don't intend to be racing it.


I love the way my N*/LQ4 MAF sounds!!!

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-19-2017 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by VanGTP5000:


I love the way my N*/LQ4 MAF sounds!!!


There should not be much difference in sound honestly. The intake is only a few mm different.

I checked out the IAC good when I got home from work a few minutes ago. When I started the car, it started out at at 86 at 90 degrees coolant temp idling at 1100 RPM. It slowly decreased as the temperature rose, and was at 47 with a temp of 127, the RPM dropping to 902. So the IAC is functioning exactly as it should.

I added the IAC to the gauge cluster, and was able to monitor it with the temperature and RPM's


I am at a total loss now to try to figure out why this thing is running SOOOOoooo rich.

  • Fuel pressure had no effect on it what so ever. I adjusted the pressure, and watched the LTFT and it did not fluctuate.
  • I do have the correct TB for this engine.
  • The PCM has been programmed for this specific TB and the stock injectors.
  • TPS is brand new
  • MAF is brand new and functioning properly.


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Report this Post07-19-2017 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ignorant prodigyClick Here to Email ignorant prodigySend a Private Message to ignorant prodigyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How is your Evap hooked up?
Vacuum leak?
O2 Sensor?

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-20-2017 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, I rooted my Acer tablet, so I could install screen recording software. Get with the program Google! Why this is not allowed by Android, without being rooted is beyond me.

Anyhow, I think I have all of the readings that everyone has asked for over the past couple weeks trying to diagnose this. I hope something in the video stands out to someone:

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Report this Post07-20-2017 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Something is funny with those temperatures, the coolant was only 100F and the intake was 140F?

Did you ever get your cold air intake installed? If not, where is the IAT sensor mounted?

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Report this Post07-20-2017 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Domtech:

Something is funny with those temperatures, the coolant was only 100F and the intake was 140F?

Did you ever get your cold air intake installed? If not, where is the IAT sensor mounted?


I did not get it installed yet, getting the time over the past week has been impossible. Maybe this weekend I can get it done.

The IAT sensor is laying close to the TB intake. It is more of a "Under the hood temperature sensor" Even though it is a high temp, this should in no way account for the rich fuel mixture. The computer is reading the air temperature correctly going into the TB, all be it high, the computer should be compensating for it.


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Report this Post07-21-2017 07:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Richjk21Send a Private Message to Richjk21Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This in no way contributes to the resolution of your problem, but I gotta say I really enjoyed the shot of your desktop background in the last few seconds of the video.


Rich

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Report this Post07-21-2017 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Richjk21:

This in no way contributes to the resolution of your problem, but I gotta say I really enjoyed the shot of your desktop background in the last few seconds of the video.


Rich


Hahah thanks! The old Shuttle Endeavor sitting on the launch pad.

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Report this Post07-21-2017 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DomtechClick Here to Email DomtechSend a Private Message to DomtechEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
Hahah thanks! The old Shuttle Endeavor sitting on the launch pad.


What? That's not a space shuttle... That's a SpaceX Falcon 9.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-23-2017 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
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Originally posted by Domtech:


What? That's not a space shuttle... That's a SpaceX Falcon 9.


LOL! So it is! I had a space Shuttle on there a while back, some app is auto changing the wallpaper to "space themed". Regardless, I like it

I recorded a little bit longer drive this time. The screen recorder is trial-ware, and limits the screen recording time.

There are around 4 full stop then accelerating to around 50 MPH in the below video:

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Phirewire
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Report this Post07-23-2017 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PhirewireClick Here to Email PhirewireSend a Private Message to PhirewireEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:


LOL! So it is! I had a space Shuttle on there a while back, some app is auto changing the wallpaper to "space themed". Regardless, I like it

I recorded a little bit longer drive this time. The screen recorder is trial-ware, and limits the screen recording time.

There are around 4 full stop then accelerating to around 50 MPH in the below video:


any chance of a video of you driving the car, also any idea about AFR

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-23-2017 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Phirewire:
any chance of a video of you driving the car, also any idea about AFR


Not sure if I can get AFR, isn't that calculated from the Oxygen sensors? I had heard you need a wide-band or something to get that reading. I don't think I can get it with Torque Pro.

What kind of video do you mean? Just a dash cam kinda thing driving around?

I will be leaving for Minneapolis late tomorrow, and will be gone till next Wednesday. I will be up at the Tyler Shipman Memorial Car Show in Frazee Thursday through Sunday.

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JohnWPB
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Report this Post07-23-2017 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, took the car out for one last little drive before heading out on Vacation tomorrow.

I was able to toss the dash cam from my truck into the Fiero and overlay that on top of the Torque Pro readings. I hope this is what you meant.....

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