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Japan's nuke problems--what's happening?--conflicting reports. by maryjane
Started on: 03-12-2011 09:14 AM
Replies: 2526
Last post by: 8Ball on 10-25-2013 05:04 PM
dennis_6
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Report this Post10-03-2011 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Per the caption - it is only a practice search.

Now if it is a practice search it is quite likely the gear is only for practice purposes also. It would not be smart to practice searching in radioactive gear in an area that requires protective gear. It would make much more sense to practice with the protective gear in an area that doesn't require it.

It would be rather foolish to do otherwise. So unless you have something that states that the gear is necessary for that area, the most likely scenario is that it is not.


Maybe 3 meltdowns?

For everyone else, check ENENEWS, the situation is taking a turn for the worse.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-05-2011).]

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Report this Post10-10-2011 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Its getting worse if you are interested check www.enenews.com
Not interested in a debate about the sources either.

For example...

Japan Times: Cesium levels spiking with unusually high amount of fallout in Okutama, Tokyo up to 300,000 Bq/m² — Home to World’s largest drinking water reservoir of its kind, built to supply Tokyo
http://enenews.com/japan-ti...d-built-supply-tokyo

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-10-2011).]

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Report this Post10-11-2011 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Today is the 7 month anniversary of the beginning of the Fukushima nuclear disaster. No real change since last month. Perhaps 60,000 or more people from cities, towns, farms, businesses, and homes in a several hundred square mile zone around this one nuclear power generating facility are still refugees, most still living, seven months on, in improvised mass shelters. Some lucky ones are living with relatives in actual homes and apartments.

There's no indication that TEPCO has paid any of the refugees for their loss of lands, homes, farms, or businesses, no evidence that TEPCO is replacing the income of these folks who, through no fault of their own, have lost their ability to work, to sell the products of their farms and ranches, to profit from the businesses they owned. The victims are still surviving on the taxpayer's dollar while TEPCO struggles to get their reactors to a steady state of cold shutdown and continues to try stopping further releases of radioactive contaminants, a task that even today, seven months later, has no known achievement date. They still can't say when they'll be able to accomplish this, though in the past they promised they could do it by Christmas this year.

None of these refugees have been able to do what most everyone else in the Sendai region has been doing for the last seven months since the earthquake and tsunami: Rebuilding their properties, cleaning up, grieving for the loss of their loved ones, and restarting their lives with a sense of hopefulness and new beginnings. Instead, they exist in a hellish limbo, unable to move on, unable to return, trapped in a meaningless present that exists day after day with no end in sight much like the spirits of their deceased loved ones whose contaminated bodies had to be left to rot in place.

TEPCO has not even begun the process of cleaning up the hundreds of square miles of residential and farmland it contaminated, and in fact TEPCO likely doesn't have the financial wherewithal to actually begin a task this gargantuan, much less finish it in any meaningful time frame. The contamination of the oceans in the area and of the ocean food chain upon which Japan is so dependent upon for their protein needs continues unabated.

Meanwhile, the second largest economy in the world struggles to deal with the looming costs of cleaning up TEPCO's mess and compensating TEPCO's victim, costs that will easily go into the hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars IMHO. One can sit back now and claim that since the money hasn't been spent yet it won't be spent, and therefor it won't be expensive to remediate this disaster, but that would be disingenuous at best and outright prevarication at worst. The ongoing disaster that is Fukushima continues to drag down not only Japan's economy, but that of every nation in the world that is linked to it including ours. Yes, a real argument can be made that the ongoing nuclear disaster in Fukushima is having a deleterious effect on our economy too.

Japan has some of the most expensive real estate in the world, as would be expected for the second largest economy in the world existing on a mid-sized island chain. A significant percentage of this real estate is now ruined, perhaps for only decades, more likely for centuries much as the lands around Chernobyl are no longer economically viable or useful. Have no doubt, this will be far more costly than some would have us believe.

The one thing I'd really like to find out, and which hasn't been covered that I can find, is what happened to all the bodies. Early on it was reported that the bodies of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of those killed by the tsunami and earthquake were trapped in the rubble and debris that was contaminated by the meltdowns and massive radiation releases. The reports said that these bodies were too radioactive to cremate, and could not be buried in standard graves either, and that many had to be left to rot in place. My understanding is that the Shinto religion requires cremation to free the spirit of the deceased from their body so that they could move on, and that cremation is a critical part of the grieving process in much of the Japanese culture. I wonder if the lack of reporting is to reduce the pain and suffering inflicted on the survivors?

I also wonder what happened to the various carrion birds and abandoned pets who ate these bodies and in turn became contaminated. Were the animals rounded up and killed? Or are these contaminated animals still running loose around Japan?

Happy 7 month anniversary...
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2.5
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Report this Post10-11-2011 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
Anybody have a summary of what has gone on? What is happening now? Also what effects this has on the U.S.?

The thread got huge and has alot of arguing in it that gets in the way
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Report this Post10-11-2011 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
Wikipedia has a pretty good overall summary of what has happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...chi_nuclear_disaster
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dennis_6
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Report this Post10-13-2011 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Radiation levels of 3.35 microsievert a hour on along a west Tokyo street. 3.35 micro Sv is .00335 milli Sv a hour. Thats .08 milli Sv a day. Thats 29.3 milli Sv a year. The limit for children is 20 milli Sv a year.
http://enenews.com/mayor-th...ontamination-working

Looks like the truth is starting to come out.

Article states "According to calculations based on the Japanese science ministrya's criteria, the equivalent annual dose in the hotspot would be 17.6 millisieverts, just below the 20 millisieverts per year threshold that requires evacuation."

My math, if its correct, comes out to 29.3 milli Sv
1 micro Sv = .001 milli Sv
3.35 micro Sv = .00335 milli Sv
For on day .00335 x 24 = .08 milli Sv
For one year .08 milli Sv x 365 = 29.3 milli Sv

If my math is wrong, let me know.


"BRENDAN TREMBATH: Mark, what precautions have you and others been taking in that area when you get close to the hot zone?

MARK WILLACY: Well, the obvious thing we take is a Geiger counter, we took that along this morning. We did find some rather high readings and I have to say of up towards 20 microsieverts per hour. That's basically the equivalent of having an X-ray every hour."

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3339069.htm

20 microsieverts per hour is .02 milli Sv a hour, .48 milli Sv a day, 175 milli Sv a year.

Not supposed to be harmful to adults, either reading, but for children its above the limit, same for pregnant women.

However, remember Japan raised the Nuclear worker annual exposure from 100 milli Sv, to 250 milli Sv a year.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-14-2011).]

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Report this Post10-13-2011 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carnut122Send a Private Message to carnut122Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
[B]
Not supposed to be harmful to adults, either reading, but for children its above the limit, same for pregnant women.

However, remember Japan raised the Nuclear worker annual exposure from 100 milli Sv, to 250 Sv a year.



No, problemo! Just raise the limits again.
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Report this Post10-13-2011 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

However, remember Japan raised the Nuclear worker annual exposure from 100 milli Sv, to 250 Sv a year.



Wrong again

And again

And again

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Report this Post10-14-2011 07:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


Wrong again

And again

And again


Evidently forgot to put milli in, it happens when you come back from a 10 hour work day. It is called a typo, now for the rest of it please elaborate, and not try the significant digit stuff again.
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Report this Post10-14-2011 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
And still wrong

and again
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Report this Post10-14-2011 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

And still wrong

and again


Without digging thru the whole argument, what is your take?
No dangerous levels?
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Report this Post10-14-2011 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
There are very dangerous levels at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

Outside the power plant the story gets complicated.

Levels that are considered 'safe' depend if you are just traveling through the area, or you are going to live in the area, or you are going to consume food grown from the area.

Remember 'elevated radiation levels"' does not equal unsafe.

There is not a universally accepted level of 'safe'. This is a simplification of the issues.

When you look at radiation, there are two distinct ways to look at it. Acute radiation poisoning will kill a person in a days or weeks. I have yet to hear that there is any area outside the plant that is high enough to worry about Acute radiation poisoning.

Over the long term the worry is that radiation will change the cell structure/DNA that can cause cancer or other issues. About 1 of 4 people will get cancer in their lifetime. So the issue is to see at what level will there be an elevated rate of cancer. At what elevated radiation rate will cause an elevated rate above 'background' cancer is hard determine.

Then consider the radiation levels will drop over time.

Then consider that the age of the person exposed affects what is considered safe. Because cancer can take many years before it becomes an issue, 'safe' radiation rates for younger people are lower than for older people.

Remember what is considered 'safe' is a level that shows no measurable increase cancer rates.

Here is what Wikipedia says about natural background radiation
 
quote
Natural background radiation

Natural background radiation comes from two primary sources: cosmic radiation and terrestrial sources. The worldwide average background dose for a human being is about 2.4 millisievert (mSv) per year.[8] This exposure is mostly from cosmic radiation and natural radionuclides in the environment (including those within the body). This is far greater than human-caused background radiation exposure, which in the year 2000 amounted to an average of about 5 μSv per year from historical nuclear weapons testing, nuclear power accidents and nuclear industry operation combined,[9] and is greater than the average exposure from medical tests, which ranges from 0.04 to 1 mSv per year. Older coal-fired power plants without effective fly ash capture are one of the largest sources of human-caused background radiation exposure.
The level of natural background radiation varies depending on location, and in some areas the level is significantly higher than average.[10] Such areas include Ramsar in Iran, Guarapari in Brazil, Kerala in India,[11] the northern Flinders Ranges in Australia[12] and Yangjiang in China.[13] In Ramsar a peak yearly dose of 260 mGy (not mSv) has been reported (compared with 0.06 mSv of a chest radiograph or up to 20 mSv of a CT scan).[14] The highest levels of natural background radiation recorded in the world is from areas around Ramsar, particularly at Talesh-Mahalleh which is a very high background radiation area (VHBRA) having an effective dose equivalent several times in excess of ICRP-recommended radiation dose limits for radiation workers and up to 200 times greater than normal background levels. Most of the radiation in the area is due to dissolved radium-226 in water of hot springs along with smaller amounts of uranium and thorium due to travertine deposits. There are more than nine hot springs in the area with different concentrations of radioisotopes, and these are used as spas by locals and tourists.[15] This high level of radiation does not seem to have caused ill effects on the residents of the area and even possibly has made them slightly more radioresistant, which is puzzling and has been called "radiation paradox". It has also been reported that residents have healthier and longer lives.[14] On the basis of this and other evidence including the fact that life had originated in a much more irradiated environment, some scientists have questioned the validity of linear no-threshold model, on which all radiation regulations currently depend.[15] Others point out that some level of radiation might actually be good for health and have a positive effect on population based on the controversial radiation hormesis model, by jump starting DNA repair mechanisms inside the cell.[16][17] Background radiation doses in the immediate vicinities of particles of high atomic number materials, within the human body, have a small enhancement due to the photoelectric effect.[18]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation

In the exclusion zone from what I have seen there are elevated levels well into the 'concerned' levels

 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Without digging thru the whole argument, what is your take?
No dangerous levels?


So boiling it down,

I think there needs to be quite a bit of concern about the long terms effects of the radiation levels in the area around the Fukushima power plant. I think there needs to be concern about the radiation levels of the food stocks from around the area. But before any conclusion is made, more information and studies are needed. Until that is completed, it is prudent to proceed in assuming a 'worst case' scenario.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 10-14-2011).]

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Report this Post10-14-2011 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Do you feel there's any reason to look at contamination by radioactive isotopes differently than looking at the radiation emitted by those isotopes? For instance, standing next to a plant contaminated with Cesium would be fairly safe, but eating that plant would not be because now the radiation emitted would be inside the body.
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Report this Post10-14-2011 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

And still wrong

and again



1 microsievert = 0.001 millisieverts
Google calculator
http://www.google.com/#scli....osb&fp=f23689a26f36 edf4&biw=1024&bih=399

Now where is wrong and wrong?
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Report this Post10-14-2011 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
Clearly some radioactive elements are more of an issue to humans than others.

Depending on the radiological half life, and the biological half life, and the biological reactions with the chemical they can be more of a biological hazard.
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Do you feel there's any reason to look at contamination by radioactive isotopes differently than looking at the radiation emitted by those isotopes? For instance, standing next to a plant contaminated with Cesium would be fairly safe, but eating that plant would not be because now the radiation emitted would be inside the body.


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Report this Post10-14-2011 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Now it seems the hot spot is caused by bottles of paint or radium, they can't make up their mind from a neighboring house.

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/...microsievertshr.html

If there is any truth to that, and it sounds fishy, then the home owners might want to fix that situation.
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Report this Post10-14-2011 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

However, remember Japan raised the Nuclear worker annual exposure from 100 milli Sv, to 250 milli Sv a year.



The nuclear worker annual rate in Japan is well below 100 mSv/year and hasn't changed. The rate differs for males and females. Those are the rates that apply to all of Japan's nuclear workers except the ones working at Fukushima Daiichi.

What they changed was only the 'emergency rate', and that rate only applies during an emergency. That is it only applies to Fukushima Daiichi workers during this emergency.

That rate is below the 500 mSv/year considered acceptable for emergency work by the World Health Organization.
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Report this Post10-14-2011 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


The nuclear worker annual rate in Japan is well below 100 mSv/year and hasn't changed. The rate differs for males and females. Those are the rates that apply to all of Japan's nuclear workers except the ones working at Fukushima Daiichi.

What they changed was only the 'emergency rate', and that rate only applies during an emergency. That is it only applies to Fukushima Daiichi workers during this emergency.

That rate is below the 500 mSv/year considered acceptable for emergency work by the World Health Organization.


You just love being technical, don't you? I am pretty sure everyone understood which workers the limits were raised for.
Now do you see anywhere my math was incorrect or did you just want to nitpick?
500 mSv a year is 50 rads a year. No thanks.

"Acute doses can cause a pattern of clearly identifiable symptoms (syndromes). These conditions are referred to in general as Acute Radiation Syndrome. Radiation sickness symptoms are apparent following acute doses >100 rad. Acute whole body doses of >450 rad may result in a statistical expectation that 50% of the population exposed will die within 60 days without medical attention. " http://wwwold.jlab.org/div_...d_guide/effects.html

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-14-2011).]

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Report this Post10-14-2011 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
It's quite clear that you had no idea what you were talking about, and it's highly unlikely that most people reading your posts knew how you were misquoting the actual facts.

But then you go and compare yearly doses of radiation with acute doses of radiation.

Dennis_6, if you took all the sunlight you received over the course of a year and instead received it in an acute dose you would become quite sick also. That however doesn't mean you should spend the rest of your life hiding indoors.
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Report this Post10-14-2011 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

It's quite clear that you had no idea what you were talking about, and it's highly unlikely that most people reading your posts knew how you were misquoting the actual facts.

But then you go and compare yearly doses of radiation with acute doses of radiation.

Dennis_6, if you took all the sunlight you received over the course of a year and instead received it in an acute dose you would become quite sick also. That however doesn't mean you should spend the rest of your life hiding indoors.


Your dosages is per year. That means it can be in equal amounts or all at once and no more in the year. Both are ok according to the rule. As far as nobody reading would know, it has been posted in this thread before, and why in the world would they raise the limits for workers outside of Fukushima? I am just trying to figure out if you get off trying to belittle anyone that disagrees or if you are some kind of cultist fanatic about nuclear power. You could attack my math, which showed a number nearly double what Japan stated, which is a problem in itself so you grasp for straws. The sad part is, I think you know what you are talking about, I don't think you care about the people in Japan at all.

Btw, I misquoted nothing, but I am sure you will find a way to twist that. I tire of fighting with you, you can't attack the message, so you attack the deliver, so that you hope the message will be discarded. Why has the news chose to ignore rather than down play Fukushima? Answer, they don't want to be discredited when the truth comes forth later.

Phonedawgz, you have already been discredited by the facts, you are only digging the hole deeper. You can maintain that no harmful radiation exist outside the exclusion zone, and nobody is expected to die from this, nobody is going to get cancer, etc. BTW, cancer leads to death. The truth is trickling out, and all anyone has to do is read this thread through, to see that you have been nothing but a shill. Its amazing I have got a bigger red bar, just because you know how to play games, and tell people what they want to hear.
Its okay though, your words are in stone, because of web archivers. When, the full truth comes out, you won't be able to say, I couldn't have known.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-14-2011).]

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Report this Post10-14-2011 09:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

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Just some headlines, no doubt phonedawgz will find a way to twist them. What amazes me is why anyone is listening to him over people with Phds, all the media that is reporting, etc. You don't have to like me, you don't have to trust me. Do your own research.

Gov’t: Radioactive strontium detected at 2 more locations in Yokohama, 250km from meltdowns — Approaching levels of most contaminated area in Fukushima
http://enenews.com/govt-rad...kushima-test-results

New Radiation Results from Elementary Schools: Nagano around 20 times normal at 1.7µSv/hr, 270 km from meltdowns — Tokyo’s Kita Ward at 1 µSv/hr
http://enenews.com/new-resu...ost-300-km-meltdowns

WSJ: Tokyo-area officials say park has radiation levels 5 times higher than previously detected in city
http://enenews.com/wsj-toky...sly-detected-in-city

Where are the bottles? Video of radiation at 5.82 µSv/hr near Tokyo in Funabashi
http://enenews.com/bottles-...svhr-tokyo-funabashi

Bloomberg: Single Tokyo ward has 13 schools with radiation levels above safety standard
http://enenews.com/bloomber...bove-safety-standard

Guardian: “Danger Reading” in Tokyo — Radiation near level that triggers an evacuation — 17 times recommended limit — More contaminated than areas in exclusion zone
http://enenews.com/guardian...areas-exclusion-zone
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Report this Post10-14-2011 10:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
The truth won't be on some wacko alarmist site like enenews.com. All they do is exactly what you do - publish every off the wall story they can get their hands on. That is not news Dennis_6.

And the reason you have been getting a bigger red bar? How about by still insisting that you are pro-nuke while posting 30 pages of anti-nuke propaganda? I bet you have gotten a ton of negs from just that lie.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 10-15-2011).]

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Report this Post10-14-2011 10:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

phonedawgz

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Real news:

"IAEA urges pragmatic clean-up
14 October 2011
An international expert mission has advised the Japanese government to avoid "over-conservatism" in its efforts to remediate large areas of contaminated land around the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

The 12-member team was assembled by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) at the request of the Japanese government to help them develop remediation strategies for land contaminated as a result of the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi plant in March. The team reviewed remediation-related strategies, plans and works, including contamination mapping, currently undertaken by Japanese authorities.

The team returned from Japan today and has now published its preliminary findings and presented them to the Japanese government.

The mission focused on the remediation of the affected areas outside of the 20 kilometre restricted area. The team said that it agrees with the prioritization and the general strategy being implemented, and suggests that further missions could be sent to confirm the progress being made and to address the remediation challenges actually within the zone.

The Japanese government has defined a set of reference levels to control the exposure of the public. In areas where the annual effective dose is estimated to be above 20 millisieverts (mSv), the government aims to reduce the estimated annual dose to less than that amount. In areas where an estimated annual exposure dose is less then 20 mSv, the government plans to conduct effective remediation work so that the estimated annual exposure dose will be less then 1 mSv.

Specific attention is being given to the exposure of children. Therefore, current efforts focus on measures to reduce children's exposures in schools and kindergartens to an effective dose of 1 mSv per year during the time they attending or travelling to school.

The expert team said that Japan's approach of using demonstration sites to assess various remediation methods "is a very helpful way to support the decision-making process."

However, Japanese authorities were encouraged to "cautiously balance the different factors that influence the net benefit of the remediation measures to ensure dose reduction." They should "avoid over-conservatism" which "could not effectively contribute to the reduction of exposure doses."

The major strategy being considered by Japanese authorities for decontaminating affected areas is the removal of up to 5 cm of top soil. However, the mission team notes that, although this would significantly reduce radionuclide concentrations in the upper layer of soils, it would generate "unnecessarily huge amounts of residual materials."

The preliminary estimate of the volume of contaminated material that could come from clean-up is between 5 and 29 million cubic metres. This is in addition to some 2.3 million tonnes of contaminated debris that has already been collected.

The mission's preliminary report noted that it is "important to avoid classifying as 'radioactive waste' such waste materials that do not cause exposures that would warrant special radiation protection measures." The team suggests that authorities establish "realistic and credible limits" regarding associated exposures. Slightly contaminated material, it says, could be used in various ways, such as the construction of reclamations, banks and roads.

The team also warned the Japanese government of the "potential risk of misunderstandings that could arise if the population is only or mainly concerned with contamination concentrations rather than dose levels." It added, "The investment of time and effort in removing contamination concentrations from everywhere, such as all forest areas and areas where the additional exposure is relatively low, does not automatically lead to reduction of doses for the public." The team's report calls on the Japanese authorities to "maintain their focus on remediation activities that bring best results in reducing the doses to the public."

The final report of the mission will be submitted to the Japanese government by 15 November"

http://www.world-nuclear-ne...efforts-1410115.html
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Report this Post10-15-2011 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carnut122Send a Private Message to carnut122Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Real news:

"IAEA urges pragmatic clean-up
14 October 2011
An international expert mission has advised the Japanese government to avoid "over-conservatism" in its efforts to remediate large areas of contaminated land around the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

http://www.world-nuclear-ne...efforts-1410115.html


I'm glad it appears the government is reacting to the situation and has apparently started the clean-up. However, I have to wonder if they are thinking "why begin the clean-up when the 'fallout' is still continuing?" per some sources . And, possibly thinking, "until the reactors are properly under control, cleaning up now will only result in re-doing the same work later." It's probably a no-win situation. I have to agree that they need to prioritize clean-up based on exposure/risk factors.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 12:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
I don't think the credible sources say the fallout is still happening.

I also don't think credible sources say the reactors are not under quite reasonable control.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 10-15-2011).]

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Report this Post10-15-2011 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
One of the enenews sources was the Wall Street Journal, they use bloomberg, the New York Times, various Japanese news agencies, etc. I guess the wall street journal and New York Times are not credible, and are alarmist whackos.
Wow, you use nuclear industry news. Like thats unbiased, lmao. Seriously, World Nuclear News? lol
The wall street journal, New York Times, and Japan Times are hardly biased. I am sure your nuclear industry news, states the fallout is over even though re criticality has been suspected and hot spots are appearing outside the exclusion zone. I am sure the pro nuclear news is painting a picture of pink unicorns playing around the reactor, and the land the plant is on will be recycled into a nursery, because its not harmful at all.
Now go find some mainstream news, ENENEWS collects news, they don't report it. Calling them alarmist whackos just shows ignorance on your part. Yes, ENENEWS is anti nuke, but their sources are not.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-15-2011).]

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Report this Post10-15-2011 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
ENENEWS source is any mud hole they can find a story in.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

ENENEWS source is any mud hole they can find a story in.


The wall street journal is much less biased than World Nuclear News, wouldn't you agree?
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Report this Post10-15-2011 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

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Is this more alarmist wacko news? Hint, before you call BS its the NEW YORK TIMES

Toshiyuki Hattori, who runs a sewage plant in Tokyo, surrounded by sacks of radioactive sludge.
By HIROKO TABUCHI
Published: October 14, 2011


TOKYO — Takeo Hayashida signed on with a citizens’ group to test for radiation near his son’s baseball field in Tokyo after government officials told him they had no plans to check for fallout from the devastated Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant. Like Japan’s central government, local officials said there was nothing to fear in the capital, 160 miles from the disaster zone.
A baseball stadium in Tokyo was found to be contaminated with radioactive cesium. There have been calls for broader testing.

Then came the test result: the level of radioactive cesium in a patch of dirt just yards from where his 11-year-old son, Koshiro, played baseball was equal to those in some contaminated areas around Chernobyl.

The patch of ground was one of more than 20 spots in and around the nation’s capital that the citizens’ group, and the respected nuclear research center they worked with, found were contaminated with potentially harmful levels of radioactive cesium.

It has been clear since the early days of the nuclear accident, the world’s second worst after Chernobyl, that that the vagaries of wind and rain had scattered worrisome amounts of radioactive materials in unexpected patterns far outside the evacuation zone 12 miles around the stricken plant. But reports that substantial amounts of cesium had accumulated as far away as Tokyo have raised new concerns about how far the contamination had spread, possibly settling in areas where the government has not even considered looking.

The government’s failure to act quickly, a growing chorus of scientists say, may be exposing many more people than originally believed to potentially harmful radiation. It is also part of a pattern: Japan’s leaders have continually insisted that the fallout from Fukushima will not spread far, or pose a health threat to residents, or contaminate the food chain. And officials have repeatedly been proved wrong by independent experts and citizens’ groups that conduct testing on their own.

“Radioactive substances are entering people’s bodies from the air, from the food. It’s everywhere,” said Kiyoshi Toda, a radiation expert at Nagasaki University’s faculty of environmental studies and a medical doctor. “But the government doesn’t even try to inform the public how much radiation they’re exposed to.”

The reports of hot spots do not indicate how widespread contamination is in the capital; more sampling would be needed to determine that. But they raise the prospect that people living near concentrated amounts of cesium are being exposed to levels of radiation above accepted international standards meant to protect people from cancer and other illnesses.

Japanese nuclear experts and activists have begun agitating for more comprehensive testing in Tokyo and elsewhere, and a cleanup if necessary. Robert Alvarez, a nuclear expert and a former special assistant to the United States secretary of energy, echoed those calls, saying the citizens’ groups’ measurements “raise major and unprecedented concerns about the aftermath of the Fukushima nuclear disaster.”

The government has not ignored citizens’ pleas entirely; it recently completed aerial testing in eastern Japan, including Tokyo. But several experts and activists say the tests are unlikely to be sensitive enough to be useful in finding micro hot spots such as those found by the citizens’ group.

Kaoru Noguchi, head of Tokyo’s health and safety section, however, argues that the testing already done is sufficient. Because Tokyo is so developed, she says, radioactive material was much more likely to have fallen on concrete, then washed away. She also said exposure was likely to be limited.

“Nobody stands in one spot all day,” she said. “And nobody eats dirt.”

Tokyo residents knew soon after the March 11 accident, when a tsunami knocked out the crucial cooling systems at the Fukushima plant, that they were being exposed to radioactive materials. Researchers detected a spike in radiation levels on March 15. Then as rain drizzled down on the evening of March 21, radioactive material again fell on the city.

In the following week, however, radioactivity in the air and water dropped rapidly. Most in the city put aside their jitters, some openly scornful of those — mostly foreigners — who had fled Tokyo in the early days of the disaster.

But not everyone was convinced. Some Tokyo residents bought dosimeters. The Tokyo citizens’ group, the Radiation Defense Project, which grew out of a Facebook discussion page, decided to be more proactive. In consultation with the Yokohama-based Isotope Research Institute, members collected soil samples from near their own homes and submitted them for testing.

Some of the results were shocking: the sample that Mr. Hayashida collected under shrubs near his neighborhood baseball field in the Edogawa ward measured nearly 138,000 becquerels per square meter of radioactive cesium 137, which can damage cells and lead to an increased risk of cancer.

Of the 132 areas tested, 22 were above 37,000 becquerels per square meter, the level at which zones were considered contaminated at Chernobyl.

Edwin Lyman, a physicist at the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington, said most residents near Chernobyl were undoubtedly much worse off, surrounded by widespread contamination rather than isolated hot spots. But he said the 37,000 figure remained a good reference point for mandatory cleanup because regular exposure to such contamination could result in a dosage of more than one millisievert per year, the maximum recommended for the public by the International Commission on Radiological Protection.

The most contaminated spot in the Radiation Defense survey, near a church, was well above the level of the 1.5 million becquerels per square meter that required mandatory resettlement at Chernobyl. The level is so much higher than other results in the study that it raises the possibility of testing error, but micro hot spots are not unheard of after nuclear disasters.

Japan’s relatively tame mainstream media, which is more likely to report on government pronouncements than grass-roots movements, mainly ignored the citizens’ group’s findings.

“Everybody just wants to believe that this is Fukushima’s problem,” said Kota Kinoshita, one of the group’s leaders and a former television journalist. “But if the government is not serious about finding out, how can we trust them?”

Hideo Yamazaki, an expert in environmental analysis at Kinki University in western Japan, did his own survey of the city and said he, too, discovered high levels in the area where the baseball field is located.

“These results are highly localized, so there is no cause for panic,” he said. “Still, there are steps the government could be taking, like decontaminating the highest spots.”

Since then, there have been other suggestions that hot spots were more widespread than originally imagined.

Last month, a local government in a Tokyo ward found a pile of composted leaves at a school that measured 849 becquerels per kilogram of cesium 137, over two times Japan’s legally permissible level for compost.

And on Wednesday, civilians who tested the roof of an apartment building in the nearby city of Yokohama — farther from Fukushima than Tokyo — found high quantities of radioactive strontium. (There was also one false alarm this week when sky-high readings were reported in the Setagaya ward in Tokyo; the government later said they were probably caused by bottles of radium, once widely used to make paint.)

The government’s own aerial testing showed that although almost all of Tokyo had relatively little contamination, two areas showed elevated readings. One was in a mountainous area at the western edge of the Tokyo metropolitan region, and the other was over three wards of the city — including the one where the baseball field is situated.

The metropolitan government said it had started preparations to begin monitoring food products from the nearby mountains, but acknowledged that food had been shipped from that area for months.

Mr. Hayashida, who discovered the high level at the baseball field, said that he was not waiting any longer for government assurances. He moved his family to Okayama, about 370 miles to the southwest.

“Perhaps we could have stayed in Tokyo with no problems,” he said. “But I choose a future with no radiation fears.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011...20hot%20spots&st=cse

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-15-2011).]

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Report this Post10-15-2011 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post

dennis_6

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quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Robert Alvarez, a nuclear expert and a former special assistant to the United States secretary of energy, echoed those calls, saying the citizens’ groups’ measurements “raise major and unprecedented concerns about the aftermath of the Fukushima nuclear disaster.”




Just wondering if Robert Alvarez is a liberal, alarmist, wacko, that clearly doesn't know what he is talking about?
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Report this Post10-15-2011 03:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

Hint, before you call BS its the NEW YORK TIMES



Always a bastion of impartiality.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


Always a bastion of impartiality.


Unfortunely, there is no news without any slant. However, New York Times is not a news publication by anti nuke activist, nor is it a nuclear industry publication. Its also not a tabloid. So, its fairly credible.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
...So, its fairly credible.


That would be my story too.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


That would be my story too.


So you really are going to side with phonedawgz and his nuclear industry news over the New York Times? Not to mention the other sources that have been reporting on hot spots in Tokyo?

Like this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...tected-in-Tokyo.html

or this:
http://www.irishtimes.com/n...1013/breaking25.html

or even this:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...10/13/MND61LHCAQ.DTL

or this
http://online.wsj.com/artic...20111012-706234.html

this too
http://www.scientificameric...pots-strontium-found

Another source for the NYT story
http://www.ocala.com/articl...t-Spots-Around-Tokyo

and another
http://www.starnewsonline.c...nt-to-Wider-Problems

and another
http://www.nasw.org/citizen...tokyo-new-york-times

Granted they are just reposting the story, but they evidently believe it to be true.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 10-15-2011).]

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Report this Post10-15-2011 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


The nuclear worker annual rate in Japan is well below 100 mSv/year and hasn't changed. The rate differs for males and females. Those are the rates that apply to all of Japan's nuclear workers except the ones working at Fukushima Daiichi.

What they changed was only the 'emergency rate', and that rate only applies during an emergency. That is it only applies to Fukushima Daiichi workers during this emergency.

That rate is below the 500 mSv/year considered acceptable for emergency work by the World Health Organization.


Have they declared an emergency at the plants? I assumed they did, but it occurs to me that I haven't actually seen a formal declaration...
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Report this Post10-15-2011 09:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post

JazzMan

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Member since Mar 2003
 
quote
Originally posted by carnut122:


I'm glad it appears the government is reacting to the situation and has apparently started the clean-up. However, I have to wonder if they are thinking "why begin the clean-up when the 'fallout' is still continuing?" per some sources . And, possibly thinking, "until the reactors are properly under control, cleaning up now will only result in re-doing the same work later." It's probably a no-win situation. I have to agree that they need to prioritize clean-up based on exposure/risk factors.


So why is the Japanese government cleaning this up? I though it was TEPCO's mess and therefor TEPCO's responsibility? I don't think the Japanese taxpayer agreed to pay for cleaning up this mess created by a private corporation.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:


So why is the Japanese government cleaning this up? I though it was TEPCO's mess and therefor TEPCO's responsibility? I don't think the Japanese taxpayer agreed to pay for cleaning up this mess created by a private corporation.


So carnut states "I'm glad it appears the government is reacting to the situation and has apparently started the clean-up." and now you are taking that and extrapolating that into "the Japanese government (is) cleaning this up'. You also have extrapolated his statement into your statement about the Japanese taxpayers footing the bill?

You guys are quite loose with the what is happening and quick to turn assumptions into 'facts'
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Report this Post10-15-2011 11:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Leaked TEPCO report: 120 billion Becquerels of plutonium, 7.6 trillion Becquerels of neptunium released in first 100 hours — Media concealed risk to public

http://enenews.com/leaked-t...ealed-risk-to-public

Neptunium decays into plutonium pretty quickly.
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Report this Post10-15-2011 11:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:


So you really are going to side with phonedawgz and his nuclear industry news over the New York Times? Not to mention the other sources that have been reporting on hot spots in Tokyo?

Like this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...tected-in-Tokyo.html

or this:
http://www.irishtimes.com/n...1013/breaking25.html

or even this:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...10/13/MND61LHCAQ.DTL

or this
http://online.wsj.com/artic...20111012-706234.html

this too
http://www.scientificameric...pots-strontium-found

Another source for the NYT story
http://www.ocala.com/articl...t-Spots-Around-Tokyo

and another
http://www.starnewsonline.c...nt-to-Wider-Problems

and another
http://www.nasw.org/citizen...tokyo-new-york-times

Granted they are just reposting the story, but they evidently believe it to be true.



Is there a single story that shows any hot spots are caused by Fukushima Daiichi?
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Report this Post10-15-2011 11:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dennis_6Send a Private Message to dennis_6Direct Link to This Post
Leaked TEPCO report: 120 billion Becquerels of plutonium, 7.6 trillion Becquerels of neptunium released in first 100 hours — Media concealed risk to public

http://enenews.com/leaked-t...ealed-risk-to-public

Neptunium decays into plutonium pretty quickly.
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