Every time I question whether God exists all I have to do is look up at night and see the billions of stars and planets. There is no other explanation.......

I believe God lets us get to a certain point where we are no good and so far away from the Earth and what God intended......

I believe we are now standing on the edge of the abyss.......

while i do not personally believe that there is a god i am open minded and if proof beyond any humans ability to alter or skew the evidence then ill believe but until then ill stick with the safe route and just live life. (but looking at the stars and not believing is really hard)

quote Originally posted by Ventura: Every time I question whether God exists all I have to do is look up at night and see the billions of stars and planets. There is no other explanation....... I believe God lets us get to a certain point where we are no good and so far away from the Earth and what God intended...... I believe we are now standing on the edge of the abyss.......

You sound EXACTLY like this guy I knew, about 8,00 years ago. He said the samn thing. I told him he was crazy, and then he told me I looked like Robert Redford. It took me 15 lifetimes to truly understand the wisdom of his words.

I don't look like Robert redford in this incarnation, but then again, I didn't look like him in THAT one, either. Not that I believe in reincarnation, mind you.

Whatever floats your boat, man...

[This message has been edited by TheDigitalAlchemist (edited 01-17-2012).]

No

I live in SC. Indians were thriving on the Savannah River 50.000 yaers ago which blows away the Siberian land bridge theory. Then 12,000 yeras ago something happened....what was it???

quote Originally posted by Ventura: The archeologist who discovered this is well respected but was afraid to say anything because it would have been like saying he had sighted Elvis....... Other scientist now agree..... Something really bad happened 12,000 years ago. Do you know what is was???

Nope, what do you think happened?

12,000 years ago an asteroid struck North America and wiped out anything werighing over 200 pounds. No food supply for larger animals. Research Clovis. We really don't know squat about the history of the world............

"Does God Really Exist? by Ventura"

Yes, I one time in a desperate moment I told God, you need to answer me on this one, it matters. Within 2 minutes, a car drove by, turned around, offered me a ride. Soon as the car pulled away, he said, "Have you accepted Jesus as your savior?"
I laughed and had the best answer ever, "If not ever before, God sent you to me to tell me so".

No one had stopped in 31 miles of walking to that moment. God answers really fast if it is important.

By the way, there are reasons for God not to answer but, that is between you, God, and what you are asking.

If there is a god the only thing that I can be absolutely sure of is that none of the religions have it right. Basically meaning that Jesus is not god.

Is there a Gaia on Earth? Does the Universe contain a Gaia?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: If there is a god the only thing that I can be absolutely sure of is that none of the religions have it right. Basically meaning that Jesus is not god. Is there a Gaia on Earth? Does the Universe contain a Gaia?

Exactly. It's not that I think there is no god but rather, I don't believe people's claims and descriptions. They are unconvincing at any level. Most just believe what they have been told. I don't. That doesn't mean I expect someone not to believe it. Enjoy.

Billions of stars do not make it true. It's just billions of stars.

It's not what you think, but how you think.

Explain to me where the billions of stars came from......Please!!!

quote Originally posted by Ventura: Explain to me where the billions of stars came from......Please!!!

From the Big Bang!

quote Originally posted by Ventura: Explain to me where the billions of stars came from......Please!!!

We don't know. That doesn't mean we must have it solved by Jan 17th, 2012 or we are required to just pick an answer. We may never solve it. It's ok to not know. It's not ok to not try.

How about you fire up some intellectual curiosity and read up on it.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-17-2012).]

I dont see this ending well... All I know is if there is one he must really hate me..

quote Originally posted by Wichita: If there is a god the only thing that I can be absolutely sure of is that none of the religions have it right. Basically meaning that Jesus is not god.

No, religions are man inspired and man is imperfect. However, the Bible does have it right.

quote Originally posted by Ventura: Explain to me where the billions of stars came from......Please!!!

quote Originally posted by Wichita: From the Big Bang!

Where did the Big Bang come from ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Where did the Big Bang come from ?

From a mythological being of great magical powers. This is kindergarten stuff.

You will never get an answer for your question from another person..
Religion is about belief. You have to go out gain knowledge about different religions and seek your own answers or something you can belive in.
No one can prove to you there is or isnt a god, it all in what you believe.
Even if you do believe in a god, whos to say its the right god?
Who's god is the right god? or are they all the same?
Or my person preference, that maybe god created heaven and earth utilizing the big bang theory.
Maybe the framework of time we use today has changed, and what was once referenced as 6 days in which everything was created really was more like 600 years or so.. Whos to say?
We look at ancient civilizations as being foolish for sacrificing goats or people in the name of rain gods and the gods of just about everything.
People have wanted to believe that there is something beyond this world since the begining of time.
Maybe its false hope in that life is more than just this.
So this debate can and will go on forever no one will change my mind anymore than I'm going to change an athiest from what they believe.
Just go with what feels right for you..

I believe God exists.
I also believe that everyone's perception of that God is different. I also believe that that's okay, as long as I'm not expected to believe their perception.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: However, the Bible does have it right.

quote Originally posted by Wichita:

+1

quote Originally posted by Ventura: I live in SC. Indians were thriving on the Savannah River 50.000 yaers ago which blows away the Siberian land bridge theory. Then 12,000 yeras ago something happened....what was it???

And you believe that was the only ice age when people could have come over? Oh wait; it could have been any year when the ice pack gets thick enough. Watch the Alaska state troopers show. Americans accidentally go to Russia every year on snowmobiles. Why would it be so difficult for people in Asia to track wildlife out into the straight, get disoriented with the lack of land marks and end up in North America?

http://answers.yahoo.com/qu...0080907162308AAqlj8o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ring_Strait_crossing

quote Originally posted by rstubie: Or my person preference, that maybe god created heaven and earth utilizing the big bang theory.

God said let there be light, he didn't say how that light came into existance (I happen to agree with you here).

quote Maybe the framework of time we use today has changed, and what was once referenced as 6 days in which everything was created really was more like 600 years or so.. Whos to say?

Again, considering we do not know what Gods existance is, and that God was outside looking in when he created the Earth, I agree. Who's to say what a "day" is to God? Sure we wrote it down as a sunrise and sunset, but that is our view of a day and the only thing we could relate it to.

Another thing is evolution. I'm pretty sure Genesis mentions all manor of creature crawling forth from the muck. Sounds like evolution to me. Granted Genisis has some animals being created before others crawled forth, but who's to say we didn't mix up the order when we wrote it down and transcribed it over and over?

quote Originally posted by Ventura: 12,000 years ago an asteroid struck North America and wiped out anything werighing over 200 pounds. No food supply for larger animals. Research Clovis. We really don't know squat about the history of the world............

...so what you are saying, if this was to happen again - obese people better be looking out...

quote Originally posted by Khw: Again, considering we do not know what Gods existance is, and that God was outside looking in when he created the Earth, I agree. Who's to say what a "day" is to God? Sure we wrote it down as a sunrise and sunset, but that is our view of a day and the only thing we could relate it to. Another thing is evolution. I'm pretty sure Genesis mentions all manor of creature crawling forth from the muck. Sounds like evolution to me. Granted Genisis has some animals being created before others crawled forth, but who's to say we didn't mix up the order when we wrote it down and transcribed it over and over?

It's either the literal word of a god or it's not. There is no in between. The instant we allow that, humans do the interpreting and then anything goes, and we know how that turns out.

There are other options for "creation". It could have been an event unrelated to an intelligence. It could have been an accident or unintended results in another universe by someone intelligent that can't control the events in the new universe. Jumping to "god did it" just skips the hard work in the middle. And if we do, we need to do a better job of it.

For all we know, yesterday and before never existed. It all started this morning with us having memories of a past that never happened. There is no way to falsify that. There are lots of things that fit the bill. There is no reason to pick one over the other.

We all get to choose but we can't claim it's the final answer.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I believe God exists. I also believe that everyone's perception of that God is different. I also believe that that's okay, as long as I'm not expected to believe their perception.

I could not have said it better!

I think the problem with the question is that people get hung up on the name "God". They are hung up on the definitions and descriptions people have attached to that name, as well as the way religions beat people over the head. I believe those things create a stigma.
Maybe a better question is, "does energy exist"? From what I know of "God", it could easily be what we know as energy. Given that, the answer would most certainly have to be "yes". But that's just my take.

quote Originally posted by TK: We don't know. That doesn't mean we must have it solved by Jan 17th, 2012 or we are required to just pick an answer. We may never solve it. It's ok to not know. It's not ok to not try. How about you fire up some intellectual curiosity and read up on it.

We, as in humans coming to an agreement? I think it is more a personal thing.
It is ok not to try? Its not ok for me, but i suppose it could be ok for you not to try. I guess it depends on what is true, if you die having not tried, or having given up, and what one believes that means, and that it actually means.

just thoughts

quote Originally posted by TK: For all we know, yesterday and before never existed. It all started this morning with us having memories of a past that never happened. There is no way to falsify that. There are lots of things that fit the bill. There is no reason to pick one over the other.

I'm pretty sure yesterday exsisted or my car keys wouldnt be where I left them..

quote Originally posted by 2.5: We, as in humans coming to an agreement? I think it is more a personal thing. It is ok not to try? Its not ok for me, but i suppose it could be ok for you not to try. I guess it depends on what is true, if you die having not tried, or having given up, and what one believes that means, and that it actually means. just thoughts

My comment was 'it's ok to not know (the answer), but not ok to not try and discover it.'

I am not sure of your latter point but I think it can be applied to learning the scientific answer and if you think there is one, the spiritual answer. I don't belittle those that try to find a spiritual answer.

quote Originally posted by TK: My comment was 'it's ok to not know (the answer), but not ok to not try and discover it.' I am not sure of your latter point but I think it can be applied to learning the scientific answer and if you think there is one, the spiritual answer. I don't belittle those that try to find a spiritual answer.

Thanks I know your point now .

Yeah, sometimes for some folks its hard to even realize the question, let alone an answer.

Science
"noun 1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws 1. a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

How about this one:
"Science is both a process of gaining knowledge, and the organized body of knowledge gained by this process. The scientific process is the systematic acquisition of new knowledge about a system. This systematic acquisition is generally the scientific method, and the system is generally nature. Science is also the scientific knowledge that has been systematically acquired by this scientific process."

Seems like science is us participating in, and experiencing life. I kinda think science and spiritual are only a separated as we choose to make them.

To answer my opinion of the title to this. Just judging by my life and those I see around me. There are 3 possibilities.
Yes - buts he/she is a mean kid with a magnifying glass.
Yes - but he/she doesnt really care about any of us.
No - I would prefer to think this over the other two.

Thats just my opinion from my experience.

I do believe so, and He has helped me through a lot.

I feel a few things when looking at the stars.
1. No way could this happen by chance.
2. No way are we the only ones.

And my personal opinion on #2 is that, if true, it really discredits Christianity. Some disagree, say that there is room for that. I can say it would really put on a ton of doubt for me, and not the healthy doubt that I often experience.

But, yes, I do believe so. And I am fairly certain I've "heard" Him a few times... not audibly, mind you, but with subtle messages and through just "thoughts".
Meh. Call me crazy over that. I don't care. I ain't crazy. I know what I've experienced, and it's led me to believe in the Christian God and His Bible.

Always searching though. Always trying to expand my knowledge in both God and in the world in general.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Thanks I know your point now . Yeah, sometimes for some folks its hard to even realize the question, let alone an answer. ... Seems like science is us participating in, and experiencing life. I kinda think science and spiritual are only a separated as we choose to make them.

If we want to get philosophical about it, sure but science is about testing falsifiable questions where as spirituality is not. At the same time neither prove anything. Science can only rule out but not rule in. Spirituality only allows one to rule in.

But where science can give us a better understand of our origins, how things work and answer *some* of our spirituality question, I think they fit together very well. We just have to be willing to accept science' conclusions (what it has ruled out.) Where it can't answer the question (because it's not falsifiable), spiritually can fill the gap.

IMHO

TK

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by proff: No

Hah, so let me get this straight. You don't believe it's possible that God exists, yet you do believe that the Bilderberg, the Illuminati, all the US government intelligence agencies, and the NAZIs on the moon base, and the Reptilians and the Center-Earth people are all trying to get you?

That is rich...

This is why I like it when there are people like you around here... you keep the topics interesting.

quote Originally posted by TK: If we want to get philosophical about it, sure but science is about testing falsifiable questions where as spirituality is not. At the same time neither prove anything. Science can only rule out but not rule in. Spirituality only allows one to rule in. But where science can give us a better understand of our origins, how things work and answer *some* of our spirituality question, I think they fit together very well. We just have to be willing to accept science' conclusions (what it has ruled out.) Where it can't answer the question (because it's not falsifiable), spiritually can fill the gap.

The question is "Does God Really Exist?"

Since no one you know has verifiably SEEN God, then this case isn't going to be presented before the court with EYEWITNESSES, which would be the strongest case. (Well, other than God sitting on the witness stand, which He either doesn't exist and therefore can't, or He isn't going to do since historically to this date He never has.)


THEREFORE, the case is going to be based on CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence.

Those cases are more difficult judgements.

SO, before even trying the case, it is common to intentionally set up a PRE-EXISTING BIAS.


For example, in the U.S., someone is "presumed innocent until proven guilty". Well, that is a pre-existing bias. Yes. By intention.
So before I would try a circumstantial case before someone as to whether God exists or not, I would want to KNOW THE PRESUMPTIVE BIAS.

MOST people have one. Many have shown it in this thread.


So do I have to PROVE God exists before you will believe, or will you believe until someone PROVES He doesn't.

And then the next question is what BURDEN of proof level is someone going to require.
My contention is that in the circumstantial case of whether God exists or not, an objective person will look at the circumstantial evidence and conclude that He does.

Science has never come CLOSE to ruling out the possibility of God as portrayed in the Bible. As you alluded to, because science can't rule Him out doesn't therefore rule His existence in.

quote Originally posted by TK: We don't know. That doesn't mean we must have it solved by Jan 17th, 2012 or we are required to just pick an answer. We may never solve it. It's ok to not know. It's not ok to not try. How about you fire up some intellectual curiosity and read up on it.

I agree, and some things we will never fully understand as we are 'inside' the thing we are trying to define. But that doesn't mean we have to resort to taking the easy way out and saying some deity created it and 'that is just how it is'.

Sure, there might be one ( or more ), but there might not.. But it should not stop anyone from trying to find scientific answers.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: For me, the answer is yes. 'Blind faith' doesn't cut it for me.

Excellent point. That was why I made it VERY specific.

Not having an "eye witness" case does NOT equal "blind faith".

MOST jury trials in the U.S. are NOT eye witness accounts. They are circumstantial cases that have a lot of evidence that is well put together.
MANY people just believe a story someone told them with no substantiation other than what the person told them. THAT is pretty much "blind faith".

That doesn't cut it for me, either.