No I do not, I do however think that some can be averted or the consequences can be less severe.
Gun laws will never prevent PLANNED attacks. they will virtually stop unplanned aggressions.
You also need to factor in the average Joe with sub average training on the proper use of a firearm. The training you need to have the "right" to carry a firearm is ridiculous. Where I work we have stringent training (over a year), follow-up training, psych test, etc. to carry a weapon. Armed personnel are trained to not pull out their weapon unless they are POSITIVE of the results. You do not want to cause a panic reaction from the other party with a weapon, you do not want hostages, etc..
I agree that there's too many people that are of the mentality to "pop a cap" if anyone does anything to them. Just this week in my old hometown two 14 year olds shot a 20-something mother when she told them to "get a job" and wouldn't give them a cigarette. They then posted pics on fbook of them posing with some guns. I don't think any gun control law would have prevented that, though. People with no respect for human life and those who think of guns as toys or a way to force their will on others wont change their mentality because of a law.
On the one hand, it should reduce the number of incidents like that. On the other, it prevents more citizens from being able to defend themselves. Would murders increase or decrease? More training is a good thing (perhaps a boot camp of sorts?). I think the continuum between "no gun banned" and "all guns banned" is very tricky to navigate.
kinda makes me wish we could somehow put these guy's brains in a jar and figure out what's wrong with them so we know what to look for. ok, so hypothetically, we allow any concealed carry owner to do so, in "gun free zones". are there any statistics on gun crimes by cc holders? are there 2 (or more) different kinds of gun owners?
It's unfortunate? that most of the time the shooters destroy their brain with a bullet.
I would say there are many different types of gun owners. Brainstorming...
Criminals - Use guns for nefarious reasons, usually untrained, some did not obtains guns through a firearms dealer, do not care about laws. Collectors - Collect guns because they can, enjoy shooting and cleaning guns, most purchased through firearms dealers, usually trained. Skirt laws on certain weapon bans. Hunters/Sportsmen - Usually trained (hunters permit classes), most purchased through firearms dealers, follow laws. Personal Protection (no carry permit, home security), guns purchased through legal means, various degree's of training Personal Protection (concealed carry permit holders), guns purchased through legal means, intense background check and training. knows and follow's the law. http://www.guns.com/2012/12...-by-next-week-video/
quote
(from Florida) Another important stat is the revocation percentage, i.e. how many licensees lose their permit due to crime-related activity. Putman said that of the 2.3 million licenses issued, only 7,244 licenses (0.3 percent) have been canceled.
Latest reports say the younger brother first murdered his father in NJ and then traveled to this school in CT where his mother works and committed the mass tragedy. Some reports say the younger brother had his older brother's ID on him so that's why some early reports were saying the older brother was the shooter. The older brother is now in custody and is being questioned. (There are conflicting reports as to whether or not he was actually involved in this). Just heard there is a report now saying the girlfriend and her father? of the shooter are missing. As with any developing story, there are going to be inconsistencies.
In any case, it sounds like this was planned out and wasn't a "spur of the moment" thing. In future days coming I wouldn't be surprised to hear it revealed that this nut had some mental issues and/or a criminal background.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-14-2012).]
People can kill with their bare hands. Some with their feet.
What will we do about that?
Those people can be convicted as such like an ex Navy Seal that has been trained. Their hands & training etc are all lethal factors in court. Not sure how this thread got so off coarse, but it just makes me want to sobb relentlessly thinking about sledding with my kids, and then the next day sledding with only one ore none
the concealed carry option might have merit if there's some extra scrutiny, as opposed to just anyone who passes NICS at wal-mart.
You didn't think they just give CCW permits to just anybody did you? As Darth said, 8 hour course, background checks through local Sheriff and State Patrol data banks, fingerprinting, take all background approved material to the DMV for endorcment on a state issued ID card, took about 3 weeks for whole process. Little more involved then an over the counter gun sale at any gun dealer. Other states may be different, but still more involved then an NICS check.
In any case, it sounds like this was planned out and wasn't a "spur of the moment" thing. In future days coming I wouldn't be surprised to hear it revealed that this nut had some mental issues and/or a criminal background.
I think its safe to say that with what he did , there were mental issues involved. Sane and rational people dont commit acts such as this.
No I do not, I do however think that some can be averted or the consequences can be less severe.
Gun laws will never prevent PLANNED attacks. they will virtually stop unplanned aggressions.
You also need to factor in the average Joe with sub average training on the proper use of a firearm. The training you need to have the "right" to carry a firearm is ridiculous. Where I work we have stringent training (over a year), follow-up training, psych test, etc. to carry a weapon. Armed personnel are trained to not pull out their weapon unless they are POSITIVE of the results. You do not want to cause a panic reaction from the other party with a weapon, you do not want hostages, etc..
by your own admission more guns laws would not have prevented this from happening because it was a planned attack. so this case cannot be considered for your stricter gun laws. when a gun massacre happens that isnt planned (see what i did there?) happens then you can put all the gun laws in place you want.
Originally posted by Lambo nut: You didn't think they just give CCW permits to just anybody did you? As Darth said, 8 hour course, background checks through local Sheriff and State Patrol data banks, fingerprinting, take all background approved material to the DMV for endorsement on a state issued ID card, took about 3 weeks for whole process. Little more involved than an over the counter gun sale at any gun dealer. Other states may be different, but still more involved than an NICS check.
Kevin
actually, kevin, i was asking for clarification of this part. "jumps in feet first without having a clue" i'm fully aware that concealed carry permit procedures require extra scrutiny in my state. as you say, they vary from state to state, which is why some states do not respect other states' permits. what i'm trying to do is be sure i understand corey's position without being demeaning, insulting or condescending.
btw, i just changed your rating from + to neutral, because i think you're a rude and inconsiderate individual. you seem to believe that anyone who might disagree with you is an idiot, and are not shy about saying so.
Here in Indiana, in order to get a permit to carry a handgun, you have to submit to a criminal background check on the local, state, and federal level that can take a few weeks to process. They record your personal info including fingerprints at the time you submit the application. It isn't just an "NICS" you get at wal-mart.
Originally posted by loafer87gt: If someone wants to find a way to kill, they will - firearm or not. Look at the mass murder that took place in China where the weapon of choice was a knife. The problem is the individual, not the damn weapon.
There were school attacks in both China and the U.S. in the last 24 hours, both are sickening but only one was a mass murder.
Ok, just for you gun control nuts. In what countries were the two highest body count school shootings? Then after you have researched this we can talk about their gun laws. Really, any further discussion from you after that is irrelevant. If you already knew, then you are a ________ and a big one too.
I think the real problem, or at least what many of these killers have in common, is a long history of mental health problems. They have multiple run-ins but yet health privacy laws prohibit doctors and clinicians from doing anything. The de-institutionalization of america has lead to high prison populations and more of these nuts running around the general public. Some disorders, like schizophrenia, should be carefully watched. It's incurable and life long. Even families are asking for more legal leverage but insurance (they dont want to pay) along with civil rights groups are huge obstacles.
This guy, at age 20, is likely to have had a psychotic break. Often there are noticeable signs up to to this point. It may not have been full blown psychosis but delusional thinking, intense rages of anger, and suicidal ideation.
You want to carry? become a cop or join the military. Otherwise your just a puss. with dick envy.
Only cowards cary guns in fear of what "might happen" And yes, the criminals are cowards to! Back in the day, scores were settled with words and fists. Now any cowardly little scronny punk can carry a gun and shoot someone. But hey, its your right...
I carry a gun because its almost a necessity in these times of high crime. Im 65, usually carry substantial money on me, and Im a little afraid of all the under 25 guys wandering the streets armed to take what they want, usually in groups. Call the police and ask the mugger/robber to wait for 30 mins for the cops to come. Ya, right. Id rather be a live coward myself than a dead one. I dont call it cowardly myself, I call it evening the field. I dont have a chance of beating up 2 or 3 twenty year old guys...that are also armed with my bare hands and a whistle.
Maybe what it will take for you to figure it out is for you to get the crap beat out of you walking to your car some nite from a couple of guys who need $20 for a fix. See how your brave, fat, bad azz works out. Your the kind of idiot I got my gun to protect myself from.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-14-2012).]
This guy, at age 20, is likely to have had a psychotic break. Often there are noticeable signs up to to this point. It may not have been full blown psychosis but delusional thinking, intense rages of anger, and suicidal ideation.
I guess his brother said he had mental issues, either Asperger's or autism. As far as I know neither of those mental afflictions tend towards violence. Anybody?
You want to carry? become a cop or join the military. Otherwise your just a puss. with dick envy.
Only cowards cary guns in fear of what "might happen" And yes, the criminals are cowards to! Back in the day, scores were settled with words and fists. Now any cowardly little scronny punk can carry a gun and shoot someone. But hey, its your right...
You sir, are an idiot.
That being said, my prayers go out to everyone involved in this tragedy.
I think the real problem, or at least what many of these killers have in common, is a long history of mental health problems. They have multiple run-ins but yet health privacy laws prohibit doctors and clinicians from doing anything. The de-institutionalization of america has lead to high prison populations and more of these nuts running around the general public. Some disorders, like schizophrenia, should be carefully watched. It's incurable and life long. Even families are asking for more legal leverage but insurance (they dont want to pay) along with civil rights groups are huge obstacles.
This guy, at age 20, is likely to have had a psychotic break. Often there are noticeable signs up to to this point. It may not have been full blown psychosis but delusional thinking, intense rages of anger, and suicidal ideation.
ehh i dunno how i feel about open medical checks for guns. ive tried killing myself (obviously i failed) and spent 3 days under observation. was it with a gun? hell no, was it a mistake? yup im glad i didnt do it, have i bought a gun since then? yes i bought my m9 a year later, have i ever been violent with a gun towards someone else? nope hope i never have to be.
while im sure that there are cases where you should have something in place to prevent a gun sale to someone who has been in a ward or at least make sure that there is little to no chance of a violent action with a gun in the future. i dont know how it could be done without infringing on others rights. i know i would hate to have 1 mistake in my life deny me from things i enjoy doing (target practice mainly) or just the joy of owning exptice fire arms which is what i collect.
God, take the hand of those little ones who come to you, as they are scared and may not know you. Be with the families, ease their suffering.
My heart aches for those who lost their lives too early to know the sweetness of life. May God hold those lost and those that survived close and give them the strength to get through this. I can not fathom the depth of such a loss much less the reason.
Ron
------------------ Ron A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. So, what do ya think, are we there yet?
On a more serious note, the killer's mother was a teacher at the school. He probably has been there, maybe several times, and the staff or someone knew him and let him in. My thought is if he did have emotional issues, he might have thought his mom spent more time and loved her students more than she did him. The weapons were hers and he took them. If they were locked up, he might have the key or combination being a family member. His girlfriend is missing, last I heard.
by your own admission more guns laws would not have prevented this from happening because it was a planned attack. so this case cannot be considered for your stricter gun laws. when a gun massacre happens that isnt planned (see what i did there?) happens then you can put all the gun laws in place you want.
I agree 100% where I chimed in in this thread is when someone posted that the teachers should of been carrying. That is where I do not agree. Gun laws would not of prevented this incident.
I just got home after having to deal with this all day. I thought about how this conversation would go here between us. I see some of you have already made it a platform to attack each other. Real nice.
You can't even put your pissy little attitudes away for 5 minutes and just greive for these families? Instead you see it as the perfect time to degrade each other? Nice.
Some of you need to grow the fugg up. You do not honor these children, or their families.
For the record: If someone wants to kill people, they will kill people. The mall, a church, the store, a school, whereever. As scarry as that is, that is the truth of our exsistence. It is what it is. The "damaged" walk among us, and mostly in secret. They always have and they always will. No gun, no law, no lock, no wish will change that. The lives of the "civilized" is no more "safe" the the lives of nature.
I mourn with these families, and am forever emptied by seeing innocents wiped away for useless, selfish reasons.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 12-14-2012).]
Maybe what it will take for you to figure it out is for you to get the crap beat out of you walking to your car some nite from a couple of guys who need $20 for a fix. See how your brave, fat, bad azz works out. Your the kind of idiot I got my gun to protect myself from.
You are one dumb ignorant redneck. Why are you perosnaly attacking me when I never personally attacked you? Calling me fat and an idiot and that you need a gun to deffend yourself from me?? WTF have I ever done to you? When have I ever threatened you? when have I ever suggested I would harm you? I am ashamed that people like you have a place in the Fiero community. Do me a favor and put that gun of yours to good use, you might need mirror to get the aim right.
[This message has been edited by Purple86GT (edited 12-14-2012).]
I just got home after having to deal with this all day. I thought about how this conversation would go here between us. I see some of you have already made it a platform to attack each other. Real nice.
You can't even put your pissy little attitudes away for 5 minutes and just greive for these families? Instead you see it as the perfect time to degrade each other? Nice.
Some of you need to grow the fugg up. You do not honor these children, or their families.
For the record: If someone wants to kill people, they will kill people. The mall, a church, the store, a school, whereever. As scarry as that is, that is the truth of our exsistence. It is what it is. The "damaged" walk among us, and mostly in secret. They always have and they always will. No gun, no law, no lock, no wish will change that. The lives of the "civilized" is no more "safe" the the lives of nature.
I mourn with these families, and am forever emptied by seeing innocents wiped away for useless, selfish reasons.
I applaud this post, couldn't have said it any better myself.
I fear we are starting to see some of the results of a generation of "dual income" households, where parenting wasn't the primary objective is some cases.
By the way, I could give a flying **** what you rate me. That fit your perfect little description of me?
Kevin
cool. whatever. have a nice day.
kevin; there's no reason for us to be confrontational. we're basically on the same, i.e. pro-gun, side. while we seem to disagree on some of the semantics and details, our main difference is in the manner in which we present our position.
[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 12-14-2012).]
You are one dumb ignorant redneck. Why are you perosnaly attacking me when I never personally attacked you? Calling me fat and an idiot and that you need a gun to deffend yourself from me?? WTF have I ever done to you? When have I ever threatened you? when have I ever suggested I would harm you? I am ashamed that people like you have a place in the Fiero community. Do me a favor and put that gun of yours to good use, you might need mirror to get the aim right.
Never personally attacked anyone? Hello - you insinuated that any gun owner is a pussy with dick envy, and said people should just be left to their fists to defend themselves. Now you tell a forum member they should kill themselves? Wow, very classy. Scary to think that we have people like you working for the Government of Canada.
And I only thought you were a ****ing moron, yet some how you have managed to go WAY beyond that!!
Kevin
I admit I'm not proud of what I wrote there. But honestly, it hurts to see what he wrote. I have my opinion about guns and my reasons. I've seen things that I can never forget... But to perosnaly attack me, and this guy has never even seen me or talked with me, yet decides to call me a fat idiot and also accuses me of being violent and he would need a gun to protect himself from me?
anyhow, I'm done with this thread. I have kids and I love them to death, what happened to tese kids and other innocent victims today can never be undone and there is no reason for it to have ever happened. RIP.
Never personally attacked anyone? Hello - you insinuated that any gun owner is a pussy with dick envy, and said people should just be left to their fists to defend themselves. Now you tell a forum member they should kill themselves? Wow, very classy. Scary to think that we have people like you working for the Government of Canada.
Wow, taking it out of context. Gun owner? No.. People who carry guns on themselves for "protection" or to commit crimes. Are pussys with dick envy, yes.
I have no problem with anyone owning a gun. I have a problem when you carry it expecting trouble.
anyways, whatever, I'm not going to fight with fellow Fiero enthusiasts over a moot poit. I'm in Canada, it's not a problem for me and I'm happy about it. When i'm in the states and you want a ride in my Fiero, jsut leave your gun in your car and you are more than welcome.
I don't carry a gun because I "expect" trouble. But I do recognize that should trouble find me and I don't have one, it's too late to go get one. As for compensation, of course that's because my dick can't shoot 240 grains of lead at 1000 fps.
anyhow, I'm done with this thread. I have kids and I love them to death, what happened to tese kids and other innocent victims today can never be undone and there is no reason for it to have ever happened. RIP.
This, I can agree with.
While you do not like guns, I can assure you that you and your family would be extremely safe, and welcome in my home. My home is a safe house for the blocks kids. ALL of the parents agree with this, and yes, I actually have letters backing my words up.
Words. I do not agree with yours, but that is ok. I do not see you as a threat to me, or this forum.
Enjoy those kids. I know that I absolutely love mine.
I fear we are starting to see some of the results of a generation of "dual income" households, where parenting wasn't the primary objective is some cases.
I think about that, but then I think about other countries who's parents both work. I just don't see the same amount of mass violences against relitive strangers.
I think these people start to see the World around them as how it relates to tthem. What is this world doing to me?! What is the world doing for me?! Everything that happens, or doesn't happen, happens to them.
And then they just decide they are going to do something big. Their own personal FTW. (either definition).
But all they are really doing is just throwing a tantrum. A terrible selfish tantrum.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 12-14-2012).]
A culture of no responsibility breeds "adult" children throwing temper tantrums. Everyone's a perfect little snowflake and told they can do no wrong. When they get older (never having "grown up") and find the world isn't what they were promised, they throw more tantrums, but with adult consequences.
And we say it is society that failed them. Even then it's not their fault.
ore none 
