you know im gonna have to disagree with this right here... proving something doesnt exist..? really?
while i do agree with Phranc on a good majority of his posts (i just wish youd word them slightly different ) i remain what i call "slightly agnostic" open to the possibility or unpossibility of a higher being, but waiting for a sure sign (like physically in front of me kinda sign.)
When I say Prove it, I mean just look around. You think all this life on Earth is just a coincidence? Big Bang? Cmon. Anyone with common sense has to realize a higher power CREATED all of this. It is so easy to see. Humans can't grasp the idea in full. We are not built that way. It's all Faith.
When I say Prove it, I mean just look around. You think all this life on Earth is just a coincidence? Big Bang? Cmon. Anyone with common sense has to realize a higher power CREATED all of this. It is so easy to see. Humans can't grasp the idea in full. We are not built that way. It's all Faith.
The argument has been made that the idea of a "higher power" is attractive to us specifically because we don't understand why and how we are here. Thus, it's easier to believe in an all-powerful creator.
If Faith is your basis, you're never going to convince someone else. That's true whether you're religious or not.
The argument has been made that the idea of a "higher power" is attractive to us specifically because we don't understand why and how we are here. Thus, it's easier to believe in an all-powerful creator.
If Faith is your basis, you're never going to convince someone else. That's true whether you're religious or not.
couldnt have said it better you cannot convince me to have faith.. like i said. i am open to the possibility of.. but also not acknowledging its existance.
using the bible for proof is also a worthless argument (i am not debating whats in it, just the fact that its existace and content, does not prove existance of a "God")
If you are against gay marriage I suggest you do not marry a gay
This guy put forth this idea on the first page
quote
Originally posted by tutnkmn:
Okay
Keep the word marriage. A civil union/partnership with legal rights the same as marriage would be fine. Keep the religious/sacred overtones to hetero couples, that's fine. Problem is most civil unions are not equal in rights of survivorship, personal/real property ownership and many other protections offered by "marriage."
I'll call the new unions, oh say.....................................martage. Maybe, ummmm.............................mortage. Oh, too close to mortgage.
Really, if you have a problem with this solution then you are nothing more than a busy body. If you believe in god and think that these people will go to hell,,,, than let them make that choice for themselves and stop pushing your agenda on everyone else. It is called free will. Though I rarely agree with many people, I am capable of letting them have their beliefs without getting my panties in a bunch when it does not effect me. I suggest you give it a try.
It must be nice to rewrite history. Slavery is slavery. Deut 20:10-11 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries(forced laborers) unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
But christians are quick to pick and choose what parts of the bible apply. Just as they are quick to say a word means something else. MY favourite is when say a day isn't a day when you question the fictional account of creation in the bible with facts like dinosaurs.
Its ironic that you use the bible to validate your opinion.
Its ironic that you use the bible to validate your opinion.
Why would it be Ironic for me to point to the bible when its to show that the bible wasn't anti-slavery so christians practicing it wouldn't be going against their teachings? What other christian text that dictates how christians live should I use when I show what the rules are for these christians?
I'm still waiting on a VALID source for all your claims. I'm willing to listen to them. All you do is say everything is fake and lies. This isn't Star Trek. Even the hard core Trekkies know it's just SciFi.
Prove to me God doesn't exist. Should be easy for you since you are so certain.
Valid? You don't have a valid source that says your fake god is real. The burden of proof isn't on me its on you. But like most christians you can't be honest enough to use logic. You god isn't real but you are just a weak mind who has years of perfected brainwashing in your way of thinking intelligently.
Phranc behavior is typical. You must be a very, very sad person inside.
Whats wrong did you get touchy because the same tactic you did only I pointed out you were black. If I'm rude because I don't believe in fake gods then you are dumb and hate cops because you are black. If it's good enough for you to use such crap arguments it's good enough for me. I'm a very happy person but thats because I don't live a life of lies.
When I say Prove it, I mean just look around. You think all this life on Earth is just a coincidence? Big Bang? Cmon. Anyone with common sense has to realize a higher power CREATED all of this. It is so easy to see. Humans can't grasp the idea in full. We are not built that way. It's all Faith.
No people with common sense wouldn't fill ignorance with fake gods.
Valid? You don't have a valid source that says your fake god is real. The burden of proof isn't on me its on you. But like most christians you can't be honest enough to use logic. You god isn't real but you are just a weak mind who has years of perfected brainwashing in your way of thinking intelligently.
Now you want to get personal and start calling me weak? Real nice. Sorry to see anyone turn on the Lord, but you are kicking and screaming to get away from Him. He will return the favor. Just when I thought this would be civilized, it turns to this. It was good while it lasted...
[This message has been edited by Carver1 (edited 05-31-2009).]
When I say Prove it, I mean just look around. You think all this life on Earth is just a coincidence? Big Bang? Cmon. Anyone with common sense has to realize a higher power CREATED all of this. It is so easy to see. Humans can't grasp the idea in full. We are not built that way. It's all Faith.
Step aside from your faith for a second (JUST to put yourself in my shoes.)
now someone is telling you.. that just because theres no explanation THAT WE KNOW OF for something... that it immediately equals a "God" did it? you may have your faith.. but i dont.. and you cant just talk it there.
space is pretty immense and i beleive there are some crazy things out there.. but im pretty skeptical on a "God" derrived from an inability to explain our existance.
Why would it be Ironic for me to point to the bible when its to show that the bible wasn't anti-slavery so christians practicing it wouldn't be going against their teachings? What other christian text that dictates how christians live should I use when I show what the rules are for these christians?
Because you do not believe anything the bible or God says, so WHY would you point to the bible. A non believer preaching scripture to a Christian ? Im well aware of what the bible says and what it means. Phranc, all I can say is Thanks, but No thanks.
Step aside from your faith for a second (JUST to put yourself in my shoes.)
now someone is telling you.. that just because theres no explanation THAT WE KNOW OF for something... that it immediately equals a "God" did it? you may have your faith.. but i don't.. and you cant just talk it there.
space is pretty immense and i believe there are some crazy things out there.. but I'm pretty skeptical on a "God" derrived from an inability to explain our existence.
So because you can explain something you can automatically say that God didn't have a hand in it? You think that God couldn't create the circumstances of our existence so he just wished us here? I am a realist and believe in science and what I can put my hands on. I also believe in how it came to be. But why are we at each other over this? You believe the way you want, I wont say anything about you or come to your door with my bible. My only say on this is this, when a group of people can force their will on another group (read all of it and don't stop there) then we should all stand up and find another way. There are laws on the books about this and there is a long history of religious belief. To let the gay community force their will on churches and community's that goes against their beliefs and religion is wrong. Find another way. Regardless if you think religion is wrong or not it is here and its protected by the rules of our nation. The same rules that let us discuss this and many other things without having our homes seized and freedom taken away. You break down that protection and what is next? You can not force your belief on another and expect others to except that your belief is more valid. Find another way. Life is short and the world is full of lonely people. If you find someone that makes you happy then I don't care just don't force your beliefs on me.
Go have a nice day and enjoy this world, tomorrow you will have one less day to enjoy.
So called? So they aren't christian because they adhere to christian teachings that slavery was ok.
Apparently, you have been duped into believing man made doctrines as "fact." This is why you failed in your readings of the scriptures for “God isn't a god of confusion but of peace” for the scriptures do not contradict. However, it appears your eyes are shut and you mind is closed to finding the truth.
Therefore you go around frustrated-- venting anger towards everyone you meet or disagree with on this forum for you are lost and don’t know the reasons why you exist and your purpose for living.
In the end if all these people TRUELY believe, then let it be and God will deal with it at the day of recogning. It is not our place to judge these people.
If all people would follow thier beliefs as they were written, that of peace, then the world would be a better place.
[This message has been edited by Earl-R (edited 05-31-2009).]
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: So because you can explain something you can automatically say that God didn't have a hand in it?
ah, but i DID say i was open to the possibility. I beleive how we got here is still unknown, and i wont be persueded either way with just words (or if i was you, convinced either way with theories) i am just as skeptical about the big bang as i am God. i will remain this way till i see or experience something that makes the little light go off in my head : DING! : your "how you came to exist" is done!
quote
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: But why are we at each other over this? You believe the way you want, I wont say anything about you or come to your door with my bible.
actually i think this discussion is staying somewhat civilized, some of us may seem to have irrational views, but for the most part we are all expressing them with some decency. and I have no problem with people who do beleive in god, nor do i try to convince them he doesnt exist just as i respect what you said about not coming to my door normally i stray away from these threads due to immidiate bashing.. but honestly.. so far not bad..
quote
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: My only say on this is this, when a group of people can force their will on another group (read all of it and don't stop there) then we should all stand up and find another way. There are laws on the books about this and there is a long history of religious belief. To let the gay community force their will on churches and community's that goes against their beliefs and religion is wrong. Find another way. Regardless if you think religion is wrong or not it is here and its protected by the rules of our nation. The same rules that let us discuss this and many other things without having our homes seized and freedom taken away. You break down that protection and what is next? You can not force your belief on another and expect others to except that your belief is more valid. Find another way. Life is short and the world is full of lonely people. If you find someone that makes you happy then I don't care just don't force your beliefs on me.
i think i understand this, but it leaves me curious, so the :new term for gay marriges, with same rights: thing that was said, do you think this is a good solution?
quote
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Go have a nice day and enjoy this world, tomorrow you will have one less day to enjoy.
agreed
[This message has been edited by BobadooFunk (edited 05-31-2009).]
i think i understand this, but it leaves me curious, so the :new term for gay marriges, with same rights: thing that was said, do you think this is a good solution?
I think there has to be a solution and marriage isn't one that everyone can live with. Civil union, Family union or what ever you call it. I am not opposed to two people that care about each other having the rights to do so in every way. Its those that you see on the street posturing in an extreme display of their beliefs that cause most of the sensationalism and reaction you see and that goes for both sides.
Politicians are only swayed by what will keep them in office the longest. When they start choosing an ass to kiss they try to hit as many as they can the first time as it tends to taste bad the second time around.
I choose to believe in God, the light came on for me years ago. Have a nice night. Jake
Now you want to get personal and start calling me weak? Real nice. Sorry to see anyone turn on the Lord, but you are kicking and screaming to get away from Him. He will return the favor. Just when I thought this would be civilized, it turns to this. It was good while it lasted...
If you can't get over your brainwashing you are weak minded. If you are insulted by the truth that's your problem not mine. I can't turn on something that never existed.
Because you do not believe anything the bible or God says, so WHY would you point to the bible. A non believer preaching scripture to a Christian ? Im well aware of what the bible says and what it means. Phranc, all I can say is Thanks, but No thanks.
Where did I say I don't believe anything the bible says? Some parts are fact and historical.
I know christians can't handle it when a nonbeliever shows they more about the religion then do. Its ok though.
Dude, your key board doesn't lie and neither does your red bar.
And what does the red bar have to do with my happiness? Maybe you are happy because people like but I don't base my happiness on if people like me or not.
Apparently, you have been duped into believing man made doctrines as "fact." This is why you failed in your readings of the scriptures for “God isn't a god of confusion but of peace” for the scriptures do not contradict. However, it appears your eyes are shut and you mind is closed to finding the truth.
Therefore you go around frustrated-- venting anger towards everyone you meet or disagree with on this forum for you are lost and don’t know the reasons why you exist and your purpose for living.
Peace? Yeah the god of destruction maybe. But Sodom and Gomorrah were peacefully destroyed. Maybe when he "ordered" attacks that was peaceful. The god of the bible is a very vengeful and jealous god. Before you say that the fictional god is a god of peace you might wanna be sure there aren't several occasions where he was a bitter angry vengeful god. You might also want to make sure you know scripture before telling others they failed at it. I love how christians who are just brainwashed suckers always say its the people who have critically looked at the bible that are closed minded. I'm not lost. I'm nor frustrated. Unlike you I don't need to have a reason to exist. See I'm not as arrogant as christians to think I'm so special that is a reason for my being. Nor am I so self centered to think there more to the purpose of life then procreation. And I'd like to know how you are so sure I vent to everyone I meet I disagree with? That's right you don't.
Wow, I go to a Little League baseball game and this thread de-evolves.
Phranc, interestingly, uses the Old Testament - written a couple of thousand years prior to Christians - to prove Christian doctrine.
Since Chiristians are told "love one another" (John 13:34) and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself," (Gal 5:14 et al), then the logical outcome is exactly what happened. As Christianity prevailed in a society, slavery lost its foothold, including in the US and Great Britain.
As I indicated in the book of Philemon, Paul tells Philemon that he could, as his "spiritual father," exert his influence in accepting Onesimus, a runaway slave, back into his household. As Onesimus's "spiritual father," as well, we can presume the underlying theme of the short letter is that Philemon should see his servant as a brother, but Paul leaves the outcome up to him. Moreover, Paul offers his personal references and to pay any debt owed to Philemon.
It is obvious that Christianity's elevation of mankind above the animals, and above mere playthings for the "gods," would be the "raison de etre" for any number of societal reforms, such as abolition, suffrage, prison reform, temperance and even the New Deal (Nobody's perfect, I guess). For those who think that religion, especially Christianity, should be removed from government, we should keep in mind that, without religion, specifically the First Great Awakening, there likely would not have been Revolution, ad, therefore, a government to keep religion out of.
ha./.. also makes me wonder, if a gay couple has/obtains a child, and the child turns out straight, will they be happy?
I am gay and have a child who is bi -------------- mostly straight.. He likes girls 60% of the time. I'm quite happy about the whole thing! His name is Ryan, he lives in London and currently has a boyfriend, Andrew. He has had girlfriends, the latest Mei Ling, and I'm good with that as well.
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 05-31-2009).]
I'm a confirmed catholic and was an alter server for over a decade.I have read the bible. A few times. Including the books that were left out and the gospels that were left out. I read the bible with an open mind and that's why I can see it for the BS that it is. Its great for telling fables and that's about it.
quote
Originally posted by Phranc:
Peace? Yeah the god of destruction maybe. But Sodom and Gomorrah were peacefully destroyed. Maybe when he "ordered" attacks that was peaceful. The god of the bible is a very vengeful and jealous god. Before you say that the fictional god is a god of peace you might wanna be sure there aren't several occasions where he was a bitter angry vengeful god. You might also want to make sure you know scripture before telling others they failed at it. I love how christians who are just brainwashed suckers always say its the people who have critically looked at the bible that are closed minded. I'm not lost. I'm nor frustrated. Unlike you I don't need to have a reason to exist. See I'm not as arrogant as christians to think I'm so special that is a reason for my being. Nor am I so self centered to think there more to the purpose of life then procreation. And I'd like to know how you are so sure I vent to everyone I meet I disagree with? That's right you don't.
Well, is God real or not? Are you a Catholic or not? Are you on the fence or off the fence... you can't have it both ways (unless your Gay j/k) by saying you "except" some parts of the Bible and then call the other parts "BS." If God isn't real then why use references? After all, if God is fake--- none of the things in the past are real.
The church did. When they monopolized the word. Why aren't gays allowed to do the same?
(Yes, I obviously didn't read past page one since I'm sure from page 2 onwards it's the same "God hates Gays" drivel))
Cliff, you speak a foreign language in addition to your native language. So do I. So we both have experienced how important it is that words have meaning, and you possibly have struggled, as I have, when there is imprecision or ambiguity with words.
I don't know that the church "monopolized the word. Regardless. Say they did. The english language definition has a LONG established, precise meaning that gays using the word would MAJORLY change.
This isn't an anti-gay thing for me. I am against ANY group changing the definition of the word. I don't know right now of any other groups that are trying to, but whatever that group would be, I am against it.
Regarding your assumption, I'm sorry you underestimated your friends on the forum. There hasn't been "God hates gays". I answered a question referencing verses in the Bible where it says that homosexuality is unnatural. I didn't extrapolate from there to "God hates gays." Nor did I say I hate gays. I then said I have several friends that are gays, and we are on great terms. And they know exactly how I feel about gay marriage. They know I am against calling it marriage, but as a citizen of the United States, they also know I support them having legal rights equal to a marriage.
Just as a general principle, just because you are against what someone does, it doesn't mean you hate them, or aren't their friend, or wish them evil.
I can testify that God does indeed exist, at least for me personally. He has answered my prayers in times of real and great need. I also know of those that curse his name, by blaming him for taking a loved one of theirs. Faith, you either have it or you don't. It can also be said you either need it or you don't. It seems Phranc has lost his faith, if he ever had it or needed it. Maybe some day he will find or need it again. If and when that day comes remember the decalogue.
quote
exodus 20:2-20:17 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3you shall have no other gods before* me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation* of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. 8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9For six days you shall labour and do all your work. 10But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. 12 Honour your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 13 You shall not murder.* 14 You shall not commit adultery. 15 You shall not steal. 16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. 17 You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-31-2009).]
Well, is God real or not? Are you a Catholic or not? Are you on the fence or off the fence... you can't have it both ways (unless your Gay j/k) by saying you "except" some parts of the Bible and then call the other parts "BS." If God isn't real then why use references? After all, if God is fake--- none of the things in the past are real.
Otherwise, it sounds like your confused.
I am a confirmed catholic. Do you know what that means? And no I don't believe in god. I'm not having it both ways nor am I on the fence. You if don't understand what I saying just say so. And some parts of the bible are true. Those would be people and places. I accept those parts to be true. The one confused here s you. I didn't say none of the things in the past are real. If you can't be honest enough to actually use what I did say and have to make things up I understand. Your religion doesn't hold up to scrutiny and instead of defending the indefensible you flounder and grasp at anything to feel relevant. It's ok though you are just another brainwashed christian.
I can testify that God does indeed exist, at least for me personally. He has answered my prayers in times of real and great need. I also know of those that curse his name, by blaming him for taking a loved one of theirs. Faith, you either have it or you don't. It can also be said you either need it or you don't. It seems Phranc has lost his faith, if he ever had it or needed it. Maybe some day he will find or need it again. If and when that day comes remember the decalogue.
Wow, I go to a Little League baseball game and this thread de-evolves.
Phranc, interestingly, uses the Old Testament - written a couple of thousand years prior to Christians - to prove Christian doctrine.
Since Chiristians are told "love one another" (John 13:34) and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself," (Gal 5:14 et al), then the logical outcome is exactly what happened. As Christianity prevailed in a society, slavery lost its foothold, including in the US and Great Britain.
As I indicated in the book of Philemon, Paul tells Philemon that he could, as his "spiritual father," exert his influence in accepting Onesimus, a runaway slave, back into his household. As Onesimus's "spiritual father," as well, we can presume the underlying theme of the short letter is that Philemon should see his servant as a brother, but Paul leaves the outcome up to him. Moreover, Paul offers his personal references and to pay any debt owed to Philemon.
It is obvious that Christianity's elevation of mankind above the animals, and above mere playthings for the "gods," would be the "raison de etre" for any number of societal reforms, such as abolition, suffrage, prison reform, temperance and even the New Deal (Nobody's perfect, I guess). For those who think that religion, especially Christianity, should be removed from government, we should keep in mind that, without religion, specifically the First Great Awakening, there likely would not have been Revolution, ad, therefore, a government to keep religion out of.
Yeah I know, how dare I use the christian bible. But christian are always quick to dismiss the old testament that their false prophet was a rabbi of. Well unless there is a part of it that works in their favour. Then its ok to use.
If christianity raised man above the animals how come in most of the world where christianity isn't the religion they are free of slaves and women can vote? You make it sound like the hindus and budists should be slave holding, women oppressors. And would that prison reform include the first penitentiaries? Do you realize why they are called penitentiaries?
And religion should be removed from government because when the government was founded they left it out. And they did that for a reason.
I am a confirmed catholic. Do you know what that means? And no I don't believe in god. I'm not having it both ways nor am I on the fence. You if don't understand what I saying just say so. And some parts of the bible are true. Those would be people and places. I accept those parts to be true.
How did you "confirm" these truths? Did you actually take time away from the key board and seek these places of interest to "confirm" you're suspensions? Did you travel distant lands Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or Egypt? Are you archeologists?
And religion should be removed from government because when the government was founded they left it out. And they did that for a reason.
Dude, you're all over the place and yet you boost about knowing everything.
Can you name one world power-- past or present that doesn't have some form of religious influence over it's leaders/kings/prince/queen/dictator/president?
If and when that day comes remember the decalogue.
Exodus 20:2-20:17
2. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
So far so good.
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 3. you shall have no other gods before* me.
Freewill?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 4. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Modren ego?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 5. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, a. punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
Human emotions? Condemming & punishing the innocent?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 6. but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation* of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Or else?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 7. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
Unforgiveness, forever?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 8. Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy.
Attendance?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 9. For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
"Creation" days, or man-days?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 10. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
Abided by?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.
See above
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 12. Honour your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
Vailed human threat?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 13. You shall not murder.*
Self-selective deffinition?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 14. You shall not commit adultery.
Inner-thoughts?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 15. You shall not steal.
Self-selective choice of definition?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 16. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
Gossip?
quote
Originally posted by avengador1: 17. You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Originally posted by Boondawg: Yikes! Some tuff-stuff, nowadays!
Yeah, Moses and company couldn't faithfully keep those laws. They keep messing up-- punishment for having to run around in the desert for 40 yrs, because somebody kept goofing up. Yeah, they had a few good years (here and there) over the centuries forward, but somebody always coveted somebody's wife (ahh. King David), coveting some purple scarf, or even Moses getting a bit too cocky at water thingie (just to name a few). Moses couldn't turn around fast enough before somebody wanting a to make a replica god, hehe. They constantly had to make sacrifices to God and that didn't work either. Oh well, good thing J.C. come along years later.
Topic Closed
) i remain what i call "slightly agnostic" 
open to the possibility or unpossibility of a higher being, but waiting for a sure sign (like physically in front of me kinda sign.) 
