I'd personally like a refund of the last 15 mins glacing through this thread....
It's a little rediculous that anyone cares what engine is in someone elses car. If I saw a 5 hp john deere motor in a fiero I would think it was pretty cool. Archie installs V8's into fieros... Who cares. I like V8's, I like fieros. I also happen to like 4cyls and V6's, but V8's are still cool. I'm not going to say that my northstar is better then a 350 or a 3.4 DOHC , because I don't care.
What ever happened to pontiacs "Drive Excitement", not bicker about some kid across the country because he doesn't like me. Just laugh it off. It won't bug you, when you could care less.
Although I would have to still maintain that some sort of proof is a nice way to avoid discrepancies between claimed Horsepower numbers a person post on the internet and the actual numbers the car runs. ... I say that the burden of proof is in the Numbers. If I can't find "C" by A over B, then some thing's not right. Maybe though like you said, to keep things calm around here give someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure most can handle that.
What's with all the burden of proof crap? Can't people enjoy their cars without getting lawyers involved?
When I'm talking to someone about cars and they tell me their car makes some outrageous amount of horsepower or runs faster than I can believe, I just smile and nod. It doesn't hurt me to listen to their claim and if I have a problem with it, I don't just whine and call them a liar and demand proof - I either challenge them to a race to prove it, AND THEN SHOW UP FOR THE RACE, or I go on my way.
What's the motivation behind "calling someone out?" Are you trying to protect the truth, or are you just trying to win an argument? If I say my stock 2.8 Fiero makes 400 HP and you don't believe me, why should I care? If you want me to prove it to you, why should I? If you challenge me to a race and I accept, then we can settle the dispute man to man. This internet arguing is stupid and pointless.
I don't think people should make outrageous claims about their cars, but I'm not going to stomp my feet and demand notarized proof of every figure they spout, either.
And there is a difference in mindset between the younger crowd and older crowd, in general. Many of us "old" people like to build cars to enjoy, but not necessarily race. We like to drive them on the street and we might race them on the track from time to time. We might spend $10,000 building a car that can only run a 14 second quarter mile. We might spend more than that. Why? Because it's how we want the car built and we have the money to spend. Sure, you can go faster with less money, but that's not our sole motivation. If it were, we certainly wouldn't be building Fieros. We'd probably just buy a motorcycle and be done with it.
So, if you can build a slow 12 second car for $50, more power to you. Check out the Grassroots Motorsports challenge. You'll find lots of people going fast on very little money in very unique ways. They'll put your ingenuity to the test.
But if you're building a street car to primarily drive on the street - accept the fact that not everyone gives a crap about drag racing and quarter mile times.
Over the years, I've had a few performance cars: a 69 Firebird 350, a 72 Trans Am 455 H.O., and an 87 Grand National. Some of them were modded, and none of them were ever raced on a drag strip or dynoed. And it didn't diminish my enjoyment of any of them.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-16-2008).]
I need to add this observation. Your quote indicates to me you are younger and don't understand the mentality of the older crowd who don't care so much about technology. My harley was a pushrod with carb. It was big, underpowered, but could be built up to insane levels of power. I could do all my own wrenchin. I grew up in the days when a Nova or Vega had a SBC or LBC installed with a six pack carb setup. My buddies had the Barracudas with the 318's - three speeds. My Dad had a 63 Vette (convertible) with the base 300hp turbojet. When you started any of the engines above it is was "blub-blub, gurgle, blug blub, wraaaaaaaaaaaa" when you hit the gas. It shook at idle and the entire body would move with the pulse of the engine. When I was at a stop light with the Harley - everyone and I mean everyone would be transfixed by the engine bouncing around in the frame - I had a Dyna rubber mount.
I can't speak for other SBCers, but I want the flip flop bouncy bounce and raw low RPM torque and HP that a crate SBC gives me. They are cheap and relatively easy to have maintained compared to overhead cam engines. I know I'll get flammed for that comment. I grew up with pushrods - and even though I've got access to newer technology don't want to give up on the other niceties the older technology gives me. Kinda like keeping a good less attractive girlfriend and not booting her because a new beauty (most likely lots of silicone or salene) walks down the street.
Your comment that SBC are stone age is a clear indication to me that you've predetermined for the most part that an SBCer is somehow a looser or worse. I know that comment is stretching a little - but this is text and I only have so much time. Sorry.
I know you're asking for proof of numbers. Hey I posted mine - but remember that my setup has not been tuned. It was running hugely rich. Yeah the TPI isn't the best way to feed an SBC - but if you look at my build thread pics you can't deny one thing. It's not just an engine - it's art.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but the chrome TPI with the Siamesed runners is way cool to me - and to almost anyone who sees it in person. I placed in the V8 class at Fierorama last September - runner up to that kick ahahaa 750 HP runner I mentioned earlier.
Having said all of the above - I'm easilly awed by anyone who does a great job - regardless of engine type. I'll always pick the pushrod over the OHC - or DOHC just because I can smile at the memories of cars than can be compared to "jiggling jello" at idle...... It may not seem rational to you, but you had to have lived it to really appreciate it - or at least be open to the idea that others find it "cool" or "phat" or whatever.
Archie's post that details some of the above is a very fond memory of what life used to be like for me. He's right on the button.
As a final comment I "dig" all engines and would like to see someone put a "new" Supra twin turbo in a Fiero. Would be cool - but it's gonna cost them a ton of cash - at least as much as 5 big decked out SBCs.
Dave
Dave, I totally understand it. I enjoy more technology and the simplicity that it brings to my life. You enjoy less technology and the simplicity it brings to yours. That's fine.
When I say the SBC is a "Stone Age" engine, that's how I feel about it compared to modern engines out there. I don't expect anyone's pre-existing opinion to change if they have something they like, but knowledge is power, and if my 16 year old cousin comes to me and asks "Sean what engine is best to put in my cavalier" I'll probably say to him, "Well you could do an ecotec swap from one of my Cobalts, because it makes decent power stock, it's lightweight and you can make tons more if you want to."
300 Horsepower is cool in a Fiero, any way you look at it. If you enjoy 300 Horsepower out of an SBC, that's fine. I just get ticked though when I know, that 300hp from a 2.2 Turboed Ecotec in a FIero is less than Half the weight of the SBC, and making just as much power. It means the Power to weight ratio is better, and I'm going to get there faster.
To go as fast as you can go as efficently as you can be, that's what gets me going! But that's just me. Have you ever heard what an ecotec sounds like without exhaust? Haha you wouldn't want to. SBC for the Win on exhaust sound for sure.
I don't think that anyone with a Fiero is a Loser, although there are probably Losers who have owned Fieros Before. What you have does not determine who you are. We're talking about cars, engines, the people who drive them and love them, and the people who lie to get attention. I also think that Collectively we've come to the conclusion that we all have a mutual respect for each other based on our differences of opinion and have pulled this thread away from the trashcan.
The problem being, many of us in the Fiero community don't like outcome of SBC's being installed with crush bent exhaust, hot air intakes, heavy adapter plates etc. The car sounds amazing, but then falls on its face at dyno events, drag races, whatever you enter it in. This creates bad rep for the community as a whole. This is the issue we'd like to see addressed.
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Saying that people can't afford Mandrel bends isn't selling me. That should be part of the install. I'm talking about people that install a V8 with your mail order kit, I'm talking about cars that come out of your shop that you built. Also how hard would it be to install a fender intake?
That is a point between.... well.... a customer and archie on an individual basis. If they wanted it they can demand it, or NOT have archie use his particular exhaust. There is NO shortage of custom exhaust shops that would be more than happy to bend a system for someone.
I dont like the interior pontiac put in the new solstice.... doesn't mean I crap on GM every chance I get and complain for them to redesign it for me, plenty of people are buying them and if so, they must be happy with the product they expected or they wouldnt have gone for it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen an Archie customer post yet that they wanted a different exhaust and didn't get it in this thread....
Oh, and if you know anything about adapter plates, they are intentionally heavy construction to be DURABLE.... it's not limited to archie's product, go to an off-road 4x4 site where guys run adaptor plates... besides, I seriously cannot see how an adaptor plate hurts performance, its not as if its a rotating mass where a reduction would made a difference. Just take a custom speaker out of your car and save more weight than the plate costs.
The bad rep for the community as a whole comes from guys like shawn posting videos all over the internet crapping on SBC cars.... not the kit itself. Want to eliminate the bad rep, eliminate the troll.
I don't care how much power any engine puts out. If you have a 170hp 305 V-8 fiero, fine, I don't care. Its the guys that install a motor and say it's 400+hp and you KNOW it can't make that much... that's what bugs me.
I've never called anyone out that I thought didn't deserve it. If you show me a low 11 second time slip and I also see a stock TPI manifold, I will ask questions. By asking questions earlier in the thread I found out that the time slip was done with a carbed 383. I'm fine with that, it is possible. He atleast has a time slip which is more than most people. It has since been detuned with a TPI manifold which won't be as powerful but it should be more daily drivable and easier to live with. Great.
I don't think a SBC suits a small car with a weak driveline, but Archie is doing some things to help. The aluminum flywheel is probably the best thing to come out his shop in years. Now you don't have to worry as much about grenading transmissions by shock loading them with a 30# flywheel. This is great when bolted to a manual transmission that is rated for a much smaller engine. I'm sure peole like Tina who take their cars to the track will appreciate such a flywheel. Should save her a few transmissions.
The problem being, many of us in the Fiero community don't like outcome of SBC's being installed with crush bent exhaust, hot air intakes, heavy adapter plates etc. The car sounds amazing, but then falls on its face at dyno events, drag races, whatever you enter it in. This creates bad rep for the community as a whole. This is the issue we'd like to see addressed.
I personally don't want to see Archie fall on his face- I want him to do it right so I can recommend his swaps.
A crate ZZ4 is rated at 355 hp. Oreif's was installed by Archie using his Kit (sanderson headers and Archie exhaust) and dyno'd 309 hp to the wheels and runs the 1/4 in 12.3. That is less than 13% loss from the engine's rated performance, to the wheels and well within the range of the nornal manual fiero drive line loss. Could it be better with a higher flow exhaust and lighter flywheel, sure... but it is hardly falling on its face the way it is. So if by design Archies SBC kit makes a Fiero slow... what happened here? What happened was a proven combination of parts, properly tuned that provided good results. These results can be repeated if the owner chooses to do so.
Take the exact same engine and put a stock TPI on it and it WILL fall on its face. Add some 2" unported Ram's Horns and again power will be disappointing. Fail to tune the carb or EFI on any application and results will be dissappointing. These are the choices some SBC owners have choosen to make (and I am not faulting them for their choices, they built it the way they wanted it), so when these choices lower the power output of the engine, then how is that Archie's fault? Or an issue with his kit?
FYI the LS7 makes more horsepower and torque than every one of those engines except for the murcielago engine. if you read that article you would see why the LS7 is "new technology". just because a motor doesnt have a OHC or DOHC doesnt mean its obsolete or "old technology"
FYI the LS7 makes more horsepower and torque than every one of those engines except for the murcielago engine. if you read that article you would see why the LS7 is "new technology". just because a motor doesnt have a OHC or DOHC doesnt mean its obsolete or "old technology"
But the engines I've listed are smaller displacement, and more efficient. Therefore more HP per Cubic inch. Therefore it's a Better Engineered engine. Wouldn't you agree?
The LS7 is a great engine. Compact and powerful. 505hp is impressive. Could a 7L motor make more power with DOHC heads? Definitely. It would also increase the weight and size of the engine which is a downside.
Pushrod and DOHC engine both have compromises. You won't see many 7L engines as small as an LS7. Its specific output should also make it a reliable engine. It is definitly more advanced than the SRT-10 which puts out comparable power but with 2 more cylinders and 8.3L displacement.
Originally posted by Leafy: But the engines I've listed are smaller displacement, and more efficient. Therefore more HP per Cubic inch. Therefore it's a Better Engineered engine. Wouldn't you agree?
who cares if the are more efficient? If your racing the damn thing your not worried about miles per gallon or any of that crap. It's about power to the ground. Well since i mentioned miles per gallon the 07 Zo6 with the LS7 get 16 city and 26 highway http://www.autosite.com/con...19803/action/summary
Don't get me wrong though the ferrari motor is an enginering masterpiece but it is not nearley as mass produced as the LS7 or LSx varients. The ferrari motor has also never made it in the back of a fiero either. The LSx motor has and they are a very nice piece. The components are of a high quality in casting and machining. The "better engineered" comment baffles me. It is still an internal combustion engine what makes it so special? That it can turn X amount of RPM ? Those good ole boys in nascar are turning their SBC's to 9k and up. I know "thats a race engine though" but does it really matter? if you dump the money into a SBC , LSx it can turn those revs too. It once again comes back to "how much are you willing to spend?" .
Sorry to get off topic but the pissing and moaning has gotten old . It is obvious that hammit aka shaunna ,shaunbag ,shauniqua is STILL pissed at Archie for not hiring him to work on / install V8's into fiero's . That is one he!! of a grudge to hold LOL. i wonder if Shaunna is gonna get a timeslip for his car anytime soon. I would love to see if my sig is true or not . What does everyone else think?
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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 03-16-2008).]
But the engines I've listed are smaller displacement, and more efficient. Therefore more HP per Cubic inch. Therefore it's a Better Engineered engine. Wouldn't you agree?
I'm sorry the're not. If you pay close attention to the simple law of conservation of energy you would know this. ALSO: power IS energy over time. Lowering time or increasing energy are the only ways to increase power increase energy = more fuel burned>> energy can only come from fuel. This done by increasing flow = more fuel enters, more displacment = more room for fuel, both are realy good for this and also go hand in hand, finally more fuel mass can be pushed through the ports by putting it under pressure, still the same mass of fuel must be burned to get the same energy (dependant on combustion efficiency). lower time = in order to lower the time one needs to decreases the time betwwen one power stroke to another, this is done by a higher angular velocity (more RPMs) or more cylinders to distiubte the power strokes (BTW higher rpms engines burn fuel less efficiently than at low rpms due to valve overlapping and typically burn up more fuel at peek power than an engine with the same power rating at a lower rpm.)
And I don't agree with you because going to school as an engineer at a engineering school, has taught me many things, and allowed me to understand many things better. Enough to know your fuzzy logic is wrong. GM keeps its image of Big displacement with its modern corvette, and has spent lots of money and time with brilliant engineers to develop its latest LSx offerings. These engines offer extremely flat torque curves that produce lots of torque at the engines entire operating range. They are very lightweight, much lighter than a V8 with DOHC heads, this is becuase the density of aluminum is constant and more volume = more mass, and todays DOHC enignes do use up more material than a similarly size pushrod engine Due to the head construciton. And calling the current corvette engine lesser engineered than that of its compition is a great Insult of the engineers that desinged it. These engines are powerfull, light, strong and manufactured at a much lower cost than the competition.
My last comment, operating both engines in thier peak power ranges, and you will easily see by the wallet-gas-o-meter neither is muich more efficient than the other at converting fuel to power.
This will be my only contribution to this steaming pile of thread. Correct me if I have said a anything false. Im open to learn things. --edited for clean up and corrections--
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 03-16-2008).]
But the engines I've listed are smaller displacement, and more efficient. Therefore more HP per Cubic inch. Therefore it's a Better Engineered engine. Wouldn't you agree?
No, I wouldn't.
2004 GTO LS1 6-speed, 5.7L puts out 350 HP (61HP/L), and can was rated at 17 mpg city / 29 highway. 2006 Solstice 2.4 Ecotec 5-speed, puts out 177 HP (73HP/L), and was rated at 20 mpg city / 28 highway.
The "stoneage" engine makes twice the horsepower and still returns similar fuel economy, in a much larger car. The Solstice manages to put out more HP/L, but uses almost the same amount of fuel as the V8 to do it.
So, because a 2008 Nissan R35GTR- VR38DETT -GR6 6-speed, 3.8L put out 480hp, it's ok to stalk and harass people who don't prefer that engine? That's what all this started about. Even if everyone agrees on what engine is most efficient, again, why does that matter? Why does that give people carte blanche to troll, harass and stalk someone who prefers a different type of engine?
The nissan motor is a straight 6 right? If thats the case it'll be a hard fit in a fiero . Even if it did fit you'd need one of those horsepower robbing oevrweight adapter plates.
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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 03-16-2008).]
2004 GTO LS1 6-speed, 5.7L puts out 350 HP (61HP/L), and can was rated at 17 mpg city / 29 highway. 2006 Solstice 2.4 Ecotec 5-speed, puts out 177 HP (73HP/L), and was rated at 20 mpg city / 28 highway.
The "stoneage" engine makes twice the horsepower and still returns similar fuel economy, in a much larger car. The Solstice manages to put out more HP/L, but uses almost the same amount of fuel as the V8 to do it.
But the real question is, WHY DOES THIS MATTER?
The Fuel Economy on the Solstice 2.4 is because of the pig rich GM tune. As an ecotec owner I know this, because I drive one. Let's see an LS1 with a new tune put out 35+ Miles to the Gallon.
OMG people, let it all go. A buddy of mine owns a Dodge Viper and my MR2 got to sit in the same garage as this before mentioned Viper. Can my car beat his? Hell no! Do I give two *****? Nope! Why? Because he likes his car and the way its setup and I like mine for the same reasons. So if you V8 guys/gals like V8's, so be it. You V6 and 4 banger folks like V6's and 4 bangers, so be it. Who gives 2 craps how much HP someones V8 is putting out? I am more than happy with my 137WHP/103 Torque 4AGE N/A. I get 35 miles to the gallon and it will still beat the snot out of the honduh ricer kids!
Oh and to the tard who is making fun of someone else's car in that video....grow up, it is his car and if he likes the power it's putting out then thats his money well spent. The cars owner and only its owner has the right to decide what engine is put in and how much power it produces!
I don't care how much power any engine puts out. If you have a 170hp 305 V-8 fiero, fine, I don't care. Its the guys that install a motor and say it's 400+hp and you KNOW it can't make that much... that's what bugs me.
OK, it bugs you. Calling them out does nothing. Move on and take whatever they say from now on with a grain of salt.
Glad I only read part of page 1 and this page. I didn't lose 15 minutes.
No turbo's planned. In fact I have no upgrades to the engine planned at all. It is what it is. My car has enough power to make it fun to drive, it also rides/handles like I want, and looks how I want it to look.
Give it a year and we'll see if the GT-R can push past 1500 whp.
The only person being stalked in this thread is the vendor... We were talking about the reasons why Archie's cars under perform.... remember.
So are we now comparing modded engines? Those are not stock numbers for the GTR . If you would like i can post links to small block powered cars that make over 2000 hp. Thats not the topic of this discussion though. What is is the fact that Archie cannot post or do anything whithout people ridiculing his techniques or methods. Does it really matter how Archie runs HIS business? Are any of you getting any kind of kickbacks from the sale or bashing of his products? I doubt it. Why not let the man build the cars the way his customers want and leave it at that? ------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 03-17-2008).]
Give it a year and we'll see if the GT-R can push past 1500 whp.
Why wait a year for 1500 whp when you can buy a Nelson Racing Engines Twin Turbo Small Block Chevy which Dyno'd at 1931 WHP? (Video's are on Youtube.)
The point isn't that a V-8 is better, The point is that it really doesn't matter. As technology advances engines, regardless of displacement, are going to get more power. There is always going to be someone building an engine faster than another.
quote
Originally posted by Emc209i: The only person being stalked in this thread is the vendor... We were talking about the reasons why Archie's cars under perform.... remember.
So if Archie is the only one being stalked, Why is it almost every SBC powered Fiero video on youtube or streetfires has derogatory comments from them? (them meaning the "stalkers")
Why is it almost every SBC powered Fiero owner on PFF has received the "hate mail" from them?
Prostreet and BMWguru both have built their own engines and are in the process of completing their swaps. Even before the swaps have been completed and tuned, they are already receiving the "hate mail".
Archie's cars under perform? Under perform compared to what? There are many "SBC's" out there ranging from a 160hp 305 all the way up to a turbo 383 mounted in a Fiero.
Yes a 160 hp 305 is only going to run in the high 14's (maybe even low 15's), But a ZZ4 runs in the 12's (3 confirmed examples) and a 383 on juice runs in the 11's (2 confirmed examples). It is a fact that around 275 to 300 rwhp in a Fiero runs in the 12 second range, Regardless of the engine used. It has been proven with SBC's, N*'s, 3800SC's, and 3.4DOHC with a turbo, (see 1/4 mile thread) so how do SBC's "under perform"?
If someone has Archie install a 350 H.O. rated at 330hp and because of emissions the owner slaps on a stock TPI system, which we know reduces the engines power, and the owner claims 400hp or the owner gives Archie an engine that was "claimed" to be 400hp and Archie installs it and the car does not perform like a 400hp car, How is it Archie's fault?
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-17-2008).]
I think most people know you can run the same parts in the same type of engine and still not get the same horsepower as someone else, so if you think someone is making an outrageous claim about the amount of horsepower they are getting out of an engine, so what. The only time they have to prove anything is if they are challenged on the track. As far as engines go, if I ever do a swap it will be an SBC, frankly because I want that "wow" factor that an SBC creates in a Fiero and I want something I can work on. After all of the stories about how expensive a 3800SC is to rebuild if need be, I would rather have an engine that you can get parts for at an auto parts store in any podunk out of the way town you could ever be in. Plus, in a Fiero I don`t think advanced technology is always the way to go. It`s great for the newer cars that you are going to trade in every couple of years, but unless you are really up to date on that technology if you have to take it in to have anything worked on it`s going to cost a fortune.
