Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Why don't we send our own balloons? And then say... "Oh man, sorry... it was an accident."
Considering that the Northern Hemisphere Polar and Subtropical Jet Streams predominantly flow from West to East, I think—no expert on this, mind you—but I think that it is easier for China to launch a high altitude balloon and float it over Alaska, Canada and the contiguous or continental United States or "Lower 48" (as it were), than for the U.S. to overfly China in this manner.
Where could we launch from? I think our balloon would have to traverse (and traverse "bigly") the airspace of other nations before it would overfly any part of China.
Maybe we could set up a covert balloon launch base in Kyrgyzstan.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-07-2023).]
I responded to two different points that Ron had brought up... the trajectory of the balloon "all the way across Canada" (which was false)... and whether Canada has "any radar or detection capability" (which it does). I even supplied graphic illustrations to further clarify my responses to both points. I don't know what else needs to be said on the matter.
I just discovered something that is rather... disappointing, to say the least. An entire post (presented below) has been deleted that may have something to do with why MJ is having so much trouble accepting why I posted what I did.
This is the post where Rams stated... "All the way across Canada would be from north to south..." (which he first brought up Here) that I then disputed at the bottom of my post Here.
I believe someone owes me an apology.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-07-2023).]
Who will be our Great Leslie ? A certain golden haired Ivanhoe, a knight in polished, shining armor. Making America Great Again ! There are, in fact, dastardly, demented and duplicitous bastages on this planet. They should be persuaded to leave, or come to the light side, rehabilitating socialists indoctrinated by deviant marxist diddlers. Truth, Justice and the American Way, Mom, apple pie, n cheerleaders just a twirling, wholesome goodness, and happy families. Siss Boom Bah ! See ? The Red Balloons were dropping bw agents all across the countryside, vials of nasty timed to open in the spring. Another attack by the ccp pla, the 500 million man army gearing up to expand their imperialist ambitions for their neighbor's lands. Guess we're going to have to get nasty right back. Another ww, parte tree. Look, up in the sky ! What is that ? That's an icbm re-entry vehicle glowing incandescent, it will light off once it falls below 7km. Big Badda Boom ! ' It's so... pathetic '
I just discovered something that is rather... disappointing, to say the least. An entire post (presented below) has been deleted that may have something to do with why MJ is having so much trouble accepting why I posted what I did.
This is the post where Rams stated... "All the way across Canada would be from north to south..." (which he first brought up Here) that I then disputed at the bottom of my post Here.
I believe someone owes me an apology.
Patrick, I would agree, your Liberal government that won't live up to it's NATO commitments owes several folks an apology. "All the way across Canada" may have been an imprecise description, how about a great swath of Canada.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-08-2023).]
University of Manitoba associate professor Andrea Charron, one of Canada’s foremost experts on NORAD... said the balloon underscores the urgent need to bring the aging North American Early Warning System up to date. Military commanders have long warned that the system, including a series of 1980s-era radar stations in Canada’s far north, has "passed its best-before date." Plans to replace it have been announced.
Something that the forum's national security and air defense radar mavens could pick up and run with, should they feel inclined to do so.
I'd never heard of this Andrea Charron before. I bet there isn't a single other forum member that can (honestly) say that it's a familiar name. And the obvious direction for online search engine probes... what plans, and where and when have they been published? What's the most up to date SITREP on the state of any such plans?
Where do I come up with this "stuff"..? This is from what Google tells me is Canada's most widely circulated daily newspaper: the Toronto Star.
"All the way across Canada" may have been an imprecise description, how about a great swath of Canada.
The issue isn't your ignorance of geography... it's your total lack of personal accountability after deleting an entire post that was an integral part of the discussion... and which was perhaps the reason MJ had trouble understanding why I posted what I did.
In regards to your opinion of the federal government of Canada, there's a whole section of this forum devoted to whining and bitching about politics. Go for it.
In regards to your opinion of the federal government of Canada, there's a whole section of this forum devoted to whining and bitching about politics. Go for it.
"In regards to your opinion of the federal government of Canada, there's a whole section of this forum devoted to whining and bitching about politics. Go for it."
~ Pennock's forum member "Patrick"
I see posts that are suddenly politicizing and defocusing a thread that had been having a good run (to this point) and had been staying focused on the balloon incident with a reasonably apolitical temperament.
There's a Chinese balloon thread in the Politics & Religion area where overtly political memes and messages would find a more natural home.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-08-2023).]
Your opinion. The fact is, that post was deleted because it was almost identical to the one directly above it. It almost apeeared as a double post. If that tweaks your nerve endings, it is, what it is. Grow some thicker skin. (And get your government to pay their committed share of the NATO load. )
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-08-2023).]
...that post was deleted because it was almost identical to the one directly above it.
Yes, it was "almost identical". So what did you do? You deleted the post to which you had added the "All the way across Canada would be from north to south" comment. Obviously a desperate move on your part to try and hide how ill-informed you are. Perhaps you should man-up and "Grow some thicker skin" yourself... or get an education.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-09-2023).]
Yes, it was "almost identical". So what did you do? You deleted the post to which you had added the "All the way across Canada would be from north to south" comment. Obviously a desperate move on your part to try and hide how ill-informed you are. Perhaps you should man-up and "Grow some thicker skin" yourself... or get an education.
Yes, it was "almost identical". So what did you do? You deleted the post to which you had added the "All the way across Canada would be from north to south" comment. Obviously a desperate move on your part to try and hide how ill-informed you are. Perhaps you should man-up and "Grow some thicker skin" yourself... or get an education.
Not trying to take sides on this, but it sounds like you guys are arguing semantics. If someone said all the way across Canada, my first impression (being an American) would likely mean from Washington (state) to Alaska. Being from the United States, this would likely be my bias of the U.S. being at the center of my world. I wouldn't first think of it from say like Vancouver to Newfoundland (as you would)... though I would also consider that to be "across Canada."
It's been reported that Canada sent an apology to China because the weather was cold when the balloon crossed it's air space causing it to lose altitude making it visible.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Not trying to take sides on this, but it sounds like you guys are arguing semantics. If someone said all the way across Canada, my first impression (being an American) would likely mean from Washington (state) to Alaska. Being from the United States, this would likely be my bias of the U.S. being at the center of my world. I wouldn't first think of it from say like Vancouver to Newfoundland (as you would)... though I would also consider that to be "across Canada."
I think that's very odd. Maybe if someone had lived all of their life since early childhood in Washington state, in a rural district, and had not graduated from high school, and had not traveled farther from their childhood home than the adjacent county, and seldom (if ever) turned to any national news or weather broadcasts on TV... but that's not "82-T/A".
But I'm not here to further inflame passions.
Edited to add:
That was my initial and "off the cuff" reaction.
I guess if the Yukon were more prominent than Canada at large as a concept in someone's mind, they could think that way. Why would that ever happen, for someone whose life had been anything at all like "82's"..? Childhood ideas about Canada that were never updated as their life progressed? The first real book they read was whatever book(s) there are by Jack London that are "Yukon-centric"..? Childhood-age cartoon programs on TV where the central character was of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police? I'm thinking of such a cartoon program, but I'd have to look it up to be more specific,
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-09-2023).]
Actually (and with Rams being a southerner) "Across" can mean any direction. North-south, East-West or any combination thereof. From one boundary to the other in no particular defined direction.
I understood perfectly what was meant.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 02-09-2023).]
A newly released timeline or tick-tock (not to be confused with TikTok) reveals that the defenders of U.S. airspace were surprised that the balloon turned south instead of north upon reaching Alaska. I haven't read through the article, but I get the (initial) impression that the U.S. "eyes on the skies" were caught on their back foot, so to speak. Or were flat-footed.
Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: WHY would anybody think it would do anything besides follow the jet-stream, and the jet-stream turns south[?] As usual, CNN would report cow patties are chocolate ice-cream rain drops.
I think some excerpts from the CNN report are in order.
quote
On January 28, when the balloon entered US airspace near Alaska, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, sent up fighter jets to make a positive identification, according to defense officials, reflecting a subtle shift in urgency.
Still, officials tracking the balloon saw little reason to be alarmed. At the time, according to US officials, this balloon was expected to sail over Alaska and continue on a northern trajectory that intelligence and military officials could track and study.
Instead, shortly after the balloon crossed over land, it alarmed officials by making its unexpected turn south.
quote
How much control China exerted over the balloon’s path remains a matter of debate. Although the balloon was equipped with propellers and a rudder that allowed it to turn “like a sailboat,” according to the senior US official, it largely rode the jet stream—one of the reasons US officials were able to predict its path across the US in advance.
quote
Once it was over US territory, officials have argued that the benefits of gathering additional intelligence on the balloon as it passed over far outweighed the risk of shooting it down over land.
The US sent up U-2 spy planes to track the balloon’s progress, according to US officials.
One pilot took a selfie in the cockpit that shows both the pilot and the surveillance balloon itself, these officials said—an image that has already gained legendary status in both NORAD and the Pentagon.
The North Polar jet stream does fluctuate. I wonder what it was like on that day, near or above the southern part of Alaska, which is where I believe the balloon first crossed into U.S. airspace. It also seems like they'd had prior experiences with these balloons and the pattern was for the balloon to turn north as it approached or first crossed into U.S. airspace over Alaska, instead of turning south. What other explanation could be read into this CNN reporting?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-09-2023).]
Don, start Here. I was disputing Ron's claim that the balloon had traveled ... "all the way across Canada".
Ron then stated Here that "All the way across Canada would be from north to south..."
That would be like saying that flying from Seattle, Washington to Tucson, Arizona would be travelling "all the way across" America. It just wouldn't be correct.
If Blackrams Airlines offers you a flight all the way across America, prepare to be shortchanged!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-09-2023).]
I think that's very odd. Maybe if someone had lived all of their life since early childhood in Washington state, in a rural district, and had not graduated from high school, and had not traveled farther from their childhood home than the adjacent county, and seldom (if ever) turned to any national news or weather broadcasts on TV... but that's not "82-T/A".
But I'm not here to further inflame passions.
Edited to add:
That was my initial and "off the cuff" reaction.
I guess if the Yukon were more prominent than Canada at large as a concept in someone's mind, they could think that way. Why would that ever happen, for someone whose life had been anything at all like "82's"..? Childhood ideas about Canada that were never updated as their life progressed? The first real book they read was whatever book(s) there are by Jack London that are "Yukon-centric"..? Childhood-age cartoon programs on TV where the central character was of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police? I'm thinking of such a cartoon program, but I'd have to look it up to be more specific,
LOL, Rinse... I'm talking about crossing Canada from the south to the north... as in, from the area across the border from Washington State, up the coast of Canada to Alaska. I'm well aware that Canada stretches from the Pacific to the Atlantic... I mean, I don't know what you're trying to insinuate about what I meant? I just meant that my first impression of when someone says "so and so crossed through Canada," I think in my biased way from south to north...
I don't think that means I'm uneducated and never left my trailer?
If I go all the way across the street, I visit one of my closest neighbors. I did not go to the other end of the street. My neighbor came all the way from Mexico, from the north end of the Sea of Cortez in the state of Sonora, about 180 miles from here.
The balloon went from Alaska to Montana and to do that, it went across Canada. It did not stop in Canada, it made it all the way from Alaska to Montana. Therefore, in American English, it went all the wayacross Canada. It's really quite simple.
Therefore, in American English, it went all the wayacross Canada.
Even with your convoluted use of English, you still had to try and change the emphasis of "all the way across" by using two separate underlines. (Maybe use another comma next time.) Nice try, but still a failure.
I've driven straight south down I5 and/or the Coast Hwy from Vancouver BC to San Diego and back several times in years past. I was only ever in Washington State, Oregon, and California during those trips. For me to say I drove all the way across the USA would be misleading, if not absolute hogwash... in American or any other variation of the English language.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-09-2023).]
Patrick, You're beating a dead horse. Let it be. I started to just let this go but, it's pretty obvious you won't. My Goodness, I'm getting embarrassed for you now.
The Spy in the Sky balloon crossed over a great deal of Canada. (Re-phrased, just for you.) Apparently, it wasn't reported to anyone while floating within the Canadian airspace, It does not appear Canadian or American defenses were doing their jobs very well. Unless the situation has changed, Canada is still not paying what it committed to pay NATO. Now, I'm done, embarrass yourself if you wish, I don't care.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-09-2023).]
The Spy in the Sky balloon crossed over a great deal of Canada. (Re-phrased, just for you.) Apparently, it wasn't reported to anyone while floating within the Canadian airspace...
Originally posted by Patrick: I've driven straight south down I5 and/or the Coast Hwy from Vancouver BC to San Diego and back several times in years past.
No you haven't. I-5 doesn't go straight south, especially from Grants Pass to Medford. If you drove straight south from Vancouver you would end up in the water.
