Democrats did some racist bad things back in the day. Democrats are embarrassed about their history and try to eliminate it. Republicans are somehow evil and racist ???
"Hardly."
Nashville's Fox News affiliated radio and TV station just published a new report about this online.
It's not a long report. I won't say brief, either. It "Read-o-Meters" to just under 4 minutes.
I think it would take a "Houdini" (as distinct from a "Hudini") to square that "summary" (from the forum's jersey number "82") with this new report from FOX17 Nashville.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-25-2021).]
I can't remember the time (or the last time) that I was in Tennessee. It's part of my early childhood that I hardly remember. Nevertheless, I kind of "dig" these headlines that I'm finding from the Volunteer State. These are all from the last 24 hours.
A bill that would have eliminated Nathan Bedford Forrest Day (July 13) from the calendar of Tennessee state holidays failed on a voice vote in committee and so will not advance to a full up or down vote in the state legislature. The bill, sponsored by a Democratic state representative, went down by a vote of 10 No and 4 Yes. On the "Yes" side, 3 Democrats and a lone Republican. The 10 "No" votes were all Republicans.
A resolution to designate the Christian Bible as the "Official State Book" has been revived and is before a committee.
The Tennessee Constitution describes the jobs that are available to inmates of the state's prisons and correctional facilities as "slavery and involuntary servitude" imposed as punishment. A committee is taking up a bill to change that description from "slavery and involuntary servitude" to "working."
A member of the State Historical Commission explains why he voted to relocate a bronze of Nathan Bedford Forrest from the Capitol Building to the nearby State Museum.
I'm hoping that someone will set up a website with a webcam trained on the bronze of NBF in the Capitol Building so that First Movement of the bronze can be a nationwide event. "Nathan Bedford Forrest Watch."
Thank you for allowing "Nashville Hot" into your desktop, tablet, smartphone or other Internet-enabled device.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-25-2021).]
It wasn’t the night before Christmas but in the Tennessee House A creature was stirring who wasn’t a mouse. Words came from his mouth in the form of a speech And what did they hear, but a cry to Impeach!
Rep. John Ragan (R-Oak Ridge) and Sen. Joey Hensley (R-Hohenwald) have introduced legislation to reconstitute the Tennessee Historical Commission to give the General Assembly control over eight of its 12 members. The panel, which last week OK’d moving the Nathan Bedford Forrest bust to the State Museum, is currently appointed by the governor.
Ragan has also had an amendment drafted declaring: Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, the statues currently on the second floor of the state capitol must never be altered, removed, concealed, or obscured in any fashion without approval in accordance with this section and must be preserved and protected for all time as a tribute to the bravery and heroism of the citizens of this state who suffered and died in their cause.
If an elected official were to go ahead and do it anyway, “the violation is an impeachable offense and grounds for ouster,” according to the amendment. Public officials would also be personally liable for damages, penalties, and fines.
The article (that's almost half of it) continues online and is followed by a long string of debate-like comments from readers.
This is the best "read" of all of the articles that I have encountered about the history of the NBF bust--or "bronze" as I like to call it. It's the most comprehensive of the various reports that I've seen. It's encyclopedic. It could be described as "The Nathan Bedford Forrest bronze from A to Z." Or "The complete and unabridged history of the Nathan Bedford Forrest bronze." It's that good.
"Nathan Bedford Forrest bust removal receives final approval from Tennessee Historical Commission" Natalie Allison for the Nashville Tennessean; March 9, 2021. https://www.tennessean.com/...-capitol/6764751002/
"Connor Towne O'Neill on Nathan Bedford Forrest, the Lost Cause & the Big Lie" 39 minutes of audio content (podcast.) Posted March 29, 2021 on Acast.
quote
Long before the Big Lie there was the Lost Cause, one of the most pervasive and damaging "stories" in American history. Connor Towne O'Neill is the author of "Down Along with That Devil's Bones" a book that examines the Lost Cause through the lens of Nathan Bedford Forrest statues. He is also a producer of critically-acclaimed podcast "White Lies." He joins the Reckon Interview to discuss Forrest, the Lost Cause and the parallels we see today with the Big Lie being pushed about the 2020 election.
Conner Towne O'Neill wrote the non-fiction book Down Along With The Devil's Bones: A Reckoning With Monuments, Memory, And The Legacy Of White Supremacy. O'Neill, a man born in a northern state who went to school at the University of Alabama, was unaware of Nathan Bedford Forrest when he first moved to Alabama. In this book he recounts the biography of Forrest along with the attempts in four southern cities to remove the statues of Forrest. Forrest was a cotton farmer in Tennessee who made his fortune by selling slaves. Later he was a general in the Confederate Army. Later still he was elected to be the first Wizard in the Klu Klux Klan. According to the author, statues of Forrest were installed at times of racial tension. When a black man is elected mayor of a town, the townspeople respond to their discomfort by erecting a bronze statue of Forrest. The author talks about palliatives. Palliatives are medical care or medicine that don't change the progression of a disease but do provide pain relief. He says the statues of Forrest were installed to ease the discomfort of positive racial changes in society. The book details the struggles to remove statues of Forrest in four southern cities. Not all the campaigns to remove the statue were successful. Reading the book taught me more about the history of the inaccurate notion of white supremacy.
I always associated THC with tetrahydrocannabinol, the most psychotropic chemical compound delivered to the human body when a person smokes or ingests marijuana. It's the "high" in marijuana.
But here's a newspaper columnist ruminating over the THC or Tennessee Historical Commission, which recently voted 25-1 in favor of relocating three bronzes, including a bronze of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, from the Tennessee State Capitol building to the nearby Tennessee State Museum. She's reacting to Republican-led efforts in the state legislature to revisit that recommendation with a new and smaller commission that would give the Republican majority in the state legislature a larger hand in the appointment of commission members.
That's a "hit." Literally. Well, not literally. Quasi-literally.
She's calling this "Bustgate." As it's a bust (or three busts) that in the eye of this hurricane, (I prefer to say "bronze" instead of "bust.")
Meanwhile, in Asheville (TN), which is almost 300 highway miles east of Nashville, a judge's ruling has just moved another Confederate monument one step closer to being demolished. It's a 75-foot tall granite obelisk in Asheville's Pack Square Plaza that's dedicated to the memory of Confederate governor Zebulon Vance.
I'd like to see the NBF bronze moved to the museum soon. But if it takes a long time before it's moved, I may be able to look back upon this thread as part of my "Victory Over Nathan Bedford Forrest Day" celebration. I guess a libation of Tennessee whiskey from Jack Daniels or George Dickel (a brand I've also enjoyed) would be apropos.
The other possibility--that the NBF bronze remains on display indefinitely in the State Capitol building--I'm not even thinking about it.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-30-2021).]
A couple of updates here from the front lines of my personal encounter with this famous and infamous Confederate General.
"The Nathan Bedford Forrest Equestrian Statue in Nashville . . . Like its subject, [it's] a monstrosity with an ugly past." Tarpley Hitt for the Daily Beast; June 12, 2020. https://www.thedailybeast.c...atue-ever?ref=scroll
This is an awesome "read." Here's how it starts:
quote
Nestled on a private grass verge along Interstate-65, just south of Nashville, there’s a 25-foot Confederate tribute, which someone generous might call a statue and others might call so transcendently stupid and ugly it disproves white supremacy. It is both silver and gold and topped with a layer of pink paint. The figure resembles an extra-large novelty nutcracker frozen in carbonite, mouth open Han Solo-style, perched on a horse and left to leer at passing DHL trucks into eternity. It is called the "Nathan Bedford Forrest Equestrian Statue."
Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate general, slave trader, and unambiguous war criminal, numbers among the most violent and hateful losers of the Civil War. If Robert E. Lee represented the pseudo-stately face of the slave-owning South, Forrest was its shrieking id, a guy The New York Times described in his obituary as “guerrilla-like in his methods of warfare... notoriously bloodthirsty and revengeful.”
Forrest massacred dozens of black Union soldiers after surrounding Fort Pillow near Memphis in 1864, became the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in 1867, and was rewarded with monuments across the state of Tennessee for decades after.
There is a bust of his head sitting in the State Capitol building—one which protesters have called to remove, and Republicans are now rallying to protect.
A statue of Forrest stood in Memphis from 1904 until 2017, when it was sold to a private buyer for $1,000. Last year, Tennessee’s Republican Governor Bill Lee declared July 13th “Nathan Bedford Forrest Day,” a gesture so controversial that even Ted Cruz condemned it. But of all the tributes to Forrest, few capture the hideousness of his legacy quite like the fiberglass monstrosity looming over I-65. . .
Now segue to Rutherford County (TN) historian Greg Tucker, who recounts the story of how Nathan Bedford Forrest adopted a conspicuously conciliatory attitude towards blacks in the years following the Civil War.
Before this all started for me--and that's recounted in the very first post of this thread--the only things I knew about Nathan Bedford Forrest or "NBF" was that he was a Confederate general, and his being associated with and widely reported as responsible for a notorious massacre of black Union soldiers (a "war crime") and his role in the creation of the original Ku Klux Klan or "KKK 1.0."
I like the fact--it seems to be well documented--that NBF could fairly be described as having become a black civil rights activist in the years following the Civil War.
It doesn't change my mind about the recommendations of the Tennessee Historical Commission, that the bronzes of the various military figures would best be relocated from the Tennessee State Capitol Building to the nearby Tennessee State Museum. The bronze of NBF, and the celebrated Union Navy admiral David Farragut and that other U.S. Navy Admiral who belongs to the period after the Civil War but has a bronze because he was born in Nashville.
I think it makes sense. Because no matter the "up side" of NBF in the years after the Civil War, he is first and foremost a symbol of Slavery and the Confederacy. And the KKK.
HIs visage in bronze should not be looking down on Tennessee state legislators and other visitors to the Capitol Building from such a prominent perch.
It's a circumstance that needs to be rectified.
REMOVE THAT BUST. REMOVE THAT BUST. REMOVE THAT . . .
They need to call "Bust Busters."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-11-2021).]
Do you believe that a man is judged to be good or evil based on the sum total of his deeds, the balance of his works? Can a once evil man redeem himself by doing good? Can a man be wholly good or evil?
I don't want to expound on that (last two remarks from "williegoat") at this time, but that is a separate issue.
This isn't about the man himself. It's about a bronze representation of the man.
If they move the bronze to the nearby state museum, that's not obscuring the history, That's moving the bronze to a venue where the history that it represents can be fairly and fully presented.
When (or IF) they move it to the museum, I hope that they include an accounting of NBF's post Civil War years, when NBF could fairly be described as a black civil rights activist in the era after Abolition of Slavery.
I think they likely would include that part of his life.
I think there are some here ("sourmash") who would predict that they will not.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-11-2021).]
Now for the trick question: How do we know that anything we read about N.B.Forrest is any more accurate than what we have read about D.J.Trump, B.Kavanaugh or H.Biden?
Now for the trick question: How do we know that anything we read about N.B.Forrest is any more accurate than what we have read about D.J.Trump, B.Kavanaugh or H.Biden?
It is manifestly obvious that the vast majority of what rinse thinks he knows is, as usual,
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:
.....his being associated with and widely reported as responsible for a notorious massacre of black Union soldiers (a "war crime") and his role in the creation of the original Ku Klux Klan or "KKK 1.0."
For example, Forrest DID NOT participate in "creating" the KKK. He joined the KKK in 1867 over 2 YEARS AFTER it's founding and he left it 2 years later in 1869.
General Forrest WAS NOT "responsible for a notorious massacre of black Union soldiers (a "war crime")" .
He offered the troops at Fort Pilllow, TN an opportunity to surrender TWICE.
“Your gallant defense of Fort Pillow has entitled you to the treatment of brave men”, the note read.
They refused to surrender and when his assault on the fort was concluded both the white and black troops (600 strong) had lost approx. 50% of their total number with 64% of the black Union troops reported dead of a section from the 2nd U.S. Colored Light Artillery, and one battalion from the 6th U.S. Colored Heavy Artillery.
There was NEVER any order from Forrest to his troops to "massacre" anyone and Forrest was never charged with any "war crime".
As is usual with Leftists and their notoriously bad to nonexistent grasp of history, facts don't matter, only feelings.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-11-2021).]
To leave the NBF bronze where it is, in a place of prominence in the TN State Capitol Building, is the same as raising the Confederate battle flag above the State Capitol Building. It's paying homage to something that needs to be remembered, but can never be legitimized or turned into some alternate history that's just as good or better than the preservation of the Union and the abolition of slavery. It's wrong.
The TN State Historical Commission has it right. They signed off on a plan to move the bronzes of three different men of TN military history (three, including NBF) from the Capitol Building to the nearby State Museum, where their stories can be presented in a sensible way.
All of this "back and forth" about whether it's fair to think of NBF as a "war criminal" in the rearview mirror of history, or whether he was uniquely important in the creation of the original KKK or just "went along for the ride" (etc.; etc.; etc.) is beside the point. It's immaterial. As is the evidence of his having become what could fairly be called a "black civil rights advocate and activist" in the years following the Civil War.
The NBF bronze belongs in a museum that is set up to accommodate a full and fair accounting of NBF and the two other figures of Tennessee military history that are part of this relocation proposal.
The "back and forth" about NBF that is on display right here in this Pennock's Topic is exactly why the NBF bronze should be given a new place of residence at the TN State Museum.
This is the TN Capitol Building at the center of this discussion. It's the single most important building in the state. It's not a place for memories of the KKK or the Confederacy.
What's seen cannot be unseen.
I expect what might be coming is a large poster or painting of George Washington that was used as the backdrop at one of the Nazi-sympathizing German American Bund rallies of the 1930s.
That's not going to change my mind about this.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-11-2021).]
Why anyone not from TN would think their opinion mattered on this is a mystery to me. Not that I really care, I'm not from or living in TN. As I previously said, it's their state, their capital building, their history. They can do what they want with it. Very similar to what CA does.............
Why anyone not from TN would think their opinion mattered on this is a mystery to me. Not that I really care, I'm not from or living in TN. As I previously said, it's their state, their capital building, their history. They can do what they want with it. Very similar to what CA does.............
Rams
Accordingly, what each of the 50 states has independently displayed in the United States Capital building is also their choice.
Despite all of the recent belly-aching and complaining from Leftists, including Ol' San Fran Nan Pelosi, to date ONLY Virginia's statue of Robert E. Lee has been removed (December 2020) after 111 YEARS on display in that building.
I am sure that Leftists, especially California Leftists, are shocked and dismayed to learn that what they FEEL does not control what other states do.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-11-2021).]
Originally posted by randye: I am sure that Leftists, especially California Leftists, are shocked and dismayed to learn that what they FEEL does not control what other states do.
That's a remarkably stupid remark, given that I have said nothing that could possibly be construed by any competent reader of English as my having any influence in this matter of the bronzes in the TN State Capitol Building, or of my believing that I have any influence in this matter, or of my being "shocked" or "dismayed" that the bronzes are still in place and that there is still haggling about whether they are going to be moved. "Surprised" . . . "disappointed" . . . but not shocked or dismayed.
It's all been for the sake of discussion. Nothing more than that.
There seems to be some "excitement" to seeing one's screen name lit up. I don't understand it but, I really don't seek or need the attention. I admittedly do espouse my opinion from time time to time but, not nearly as much as some.
Why anyone not from TN would think their opinion mattered on this is a mystery to me. Not that I really care, I'm not from or living in TN. As I previously said, it's their state, their capital building, their history. They can do what they want with it. Very similar to what CA does.............
Rams
Whether any specific member's opinion 'matters' or not does not in any way negate their PFF right to state said opinion, just as you did state yours above.
quote
New Topics: All registered users may post new topics in this forum. Replies: All registered users may post replies in this forum.
I very much suspect, if one of the members from California (or Tx or Ms, or BFE), had come out and stated they were against the statue's move, there would be not a word said in opposition to their post.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-11-2021).]
Whether any specific member's opinion 'matters' or not does not in any way negate their PFF right to state said opinion, just as you did state yours above.
I suppose you will have to specifically point out where anyone's right to post an opinion in this thread was questioned or denied.
The observation was whether or not an expressed opinion matters.
That would equally apply to your opinion or mine.
While others may have a right to opine on what you should do with your cattle, your statues or your flags, ultimately the decision, (within law), is yours alone.
That also holds true for citizens in TN, MS, CA, FL, TEXAS or BFE
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-12-2021).]
I suppose you will have to specifically point out where anyone's right to post an opinion in this thread was questioned or denied.
The observation was whether or not an expressed opinion matters.
That would equally apply to your opinion or mine.
While others may have a right to opine on what you should do with your cattle, your statues or your flags, ultimately the decision, (within law), is yours alone.
That also holds true for citizens in TN, MS, CA, FL, TEXAS or BFE
Absolutely, which is why I wondered why would anyone would ask such a question to begin with. Why do we opine regarding what happens in Ca, or NY, The Ukraine, or Iran or anywhere else? The answer is, that Each of our opinions matter to us, otherwise, we wouldn't bother posting them.
Tourism is the #2 economic money maker in Tennessee (agriculture is #1) and more and more, social/political issues in any given state/region play into visitor's tourism plans. Tn, pre covid, was down the list of Southeast US destinations, trailing behind Fla, Ga, La, both Carolina's and all the SE states are vying for tourist's dollars, specifically out of state dollars. If anyone believes demographic/social groups don't have implications going forward, they aren't looking at a very big picture.
I personally don't give a rat's behind if anyone visits my state or not, (afraid they might decide to stay) but I do understand tourism's impact on my state's coffers. Every traveler, business or tourist, spends $$ in each state they travel thru and to. States most and least traveled (all reasons) with top and bottom outlined.
Tennessee wants to move up in the standings.
I personally believe we should, as a nation and individual states, preserve and illuminate both our 'good and bad' history for the ages, and not try to minimize our dark parts while illuminating our better parts. Shunting the bad off to a less conspicuous location is doing exactly that.
(An example of that in my own state would include the dark days of the early 1900s when the storied Texas Rangers themselves became lawless and murdered hundreds of Texas citizens, mostly Hispanic in South Texas. I am not in favor of the Ranger statues being removed but am in favor of the whole story being told, that period, thru desegregation as well as before and since, for all to see. I wear Texas shame same as Texas pride.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...anales_investigation
And no, I don't care one bit if anyone thinks my opinon matters or not.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-12-2021).]
Tourism is the #2 economic money maker in Tennessee (agriculture is #1) and more and more, social/political issues in any given state/region play into visitor's tourism plans. Tn, pre covid, was down the list of Southeast US destinations, trailing behind Fla, Ga, La, both Carolina's and all the SE states are vying for tourist's dollars, specifically out of state dollars. If anyone believes demographic/social groups don't have implications going forward, they aren't looking at a very big picture.
I personally don't give a rat's behind if anyone visits my state or not, (afraid they might decide to stay) but I do understand tourism's impact on my state's coffers. Every traveler, business or tourist, spends $$ in each state they travel thru and to. States most and least traveled (all reasons) with top and bottom outlined.
Tennessee wants to move up in the standings.
When I was a young lad my mother was a fan of the movie "Gone With The Wind", so much so that she convinced my Dad to drag all of us along on a summer vacation through 4 different southern states so she could tour Antebellum mansions.
Many of those magnificent plantation mansions are now on state and Federal historical site registries and marked, as well as funded, for preservation.
I'm absolutely certain that there are some today whose opinion, owing to their personal politics, is that those old plantations should be completely leveled to leave no trace of them having ever existed and the ground they stood on salted.
Thankfully their opinions don't matter and those beautiful old plantation homes and their history are well preserved today and they still generate a lot of tourist dollars.
I very much suspect, if one of the members from California (or Tx or Ms, or BFE), had come out and stated they were against the statue's move, there would be not a word said in opposition to their post.
Admittedly, you would probably be correct. Thanks for posting and pointing out the obvious.
The point was, that opinions from anyone outside the state of TN didn't and don't matter. But, I suspect you already knew that.
I'm not surprised you decided to hop onto this. Kind of follows the path you've taken the last few years. That's OK.
I also don't wish for others to either visit or pass through MS. Too damn much traffic already.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-12-2021).]
The KKK wasn't what we were told it is. It wasn't formed out of hate.
The Northern Union was so Draconian in occupying the South that acts such as Posse Comitatus had to be created.
Slavery wasn't what Hollywood tells us it is. Blacks traded, bred and held slaves, and were able to do it in the black market moreso than other groups, later. American Indians traded/held slaves.
An interesting quote: "Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." - Jefferson
Admittedly, you would probably be correct. Thanks for posting and pointing out the obvious.
The point was, that opinions from anyone outside the state of TN didn't and don't matter. But, I suspect you already knew that.
I'm not surprised you decided to hop onto this. Kind of follows the path you've taken the last few years. That's OK.
I also don't wish for others to either visit or pass through MS. Too damn much traffic already.
Rams
"Don't matter" to who?
Does the opinion of anyone living outside Illinois matter, regarding what happens in Chicago? Does the opinion of anyone living outside Georgia matter, regarding their voting law changes? Does the opinion of anyone living outside France matter, regarding the results of their lax immigration laws? Does the opinion of anyone living outside Fla matter, regarding their policy of using Marsy's law? Does the opinion of anyone not planning on buying a Corvette in the near future matter regarding whether it is IC or electric?
If this thread had been started by anyone from the political right, and all the responses/opinions had been in opposition to moving the statue, you would have never asked the question at all, much less singled out one specific member. There have been posts/opinions stated in this thread by approx 8 different members. You only singled out one member to ask that question of. Why?
Well there goes my planned visit to the historic Blackrams Plantation......
randye, Just about anyone is welcome but, I gotta warn ya. There's scoundrels out there, ammunition is expensive and I'm tired of wasting it with warning shots.
Some related stories. The first one is a new report.
"After Threats to Turn It Into a Toilet, a Confederate Monument Is Recovered"
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A stone chair dedicated to Jefferson Davis has been returned to the United Daughters of the Confederacy after a group calling itself "White Lies Matter" claimed to have stolen it.
"Over 160 Confederate Symbols Were Removed in 2020, Group Says"
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The Southern Poverty Law Center said more “symbols of hate” were removed from public property last year after the death of George Floyd than in the previous four years combined.
"Will the Last Confederate Statue Standing Turn Off the Lights?"
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A monument to Robert E. Lee in Richmond, Va., has become the site of an unlikely community space. That may change abruptly with new restrictions from the police.
randye, Just about anyone is welcome but, I gotta warn ya. There's scoundrels out there, ammunition is expensive and I'm tired of wasting it with warning shots.
Rams
Ron,
Anywhere I go I bring ammo, whether a little or a lot, (depending on the circumstance). The only "warning shots" that I fire are aimed at center body mass unless I can get a clear head shot.
The fact that your neck of the woods is rife with scoundrels is beneficial as I would likely not stand out too much.
"Here’s what might replace America’s disappearing Confederate monuments"
quote
Virginia's governor is requesting $10 million to replace controversial statues in Richmond with inclusive art recognizing a diverse and challenging history.
A portrait of George Floyd was projected onto the statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee in June. With several Confederate statues removed from Monument Avenue in Richmond, Virginia, the governor is now asking the state to fund the creation of a more inclusive public space.
Some of the messages in this thread read like the frantic squawking of a chicken that's being strangled. The messages that try to equate the Democrats of 2021 with the Democrats of 1861, and seem to pretend, if only by implication, that the name of "Donald J. Trump" belongs inside the same Venn diagram circle as "Abraham Lincoln."
