Tennessee's Republican governor and Republican lawmakers are not all on the same page about a bust of Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest that is still prominently displayed at the state's capitol building in Nashville.
The temperament of the dispute may have not yet risen all the way to "Nashville Hot" but they're working on it.
Tennessee's Republican governor Bill Lee has come out in favor of removing the imposing looking bronze casting from the capitol building. About a year ago the Tennessee Historical Commission began to consider the issue. Of its 29 members, 24 were appointed by Governor Lee. On March 8, the commissioners voted 25-1 to have the bust relocated to the Tennessee State Museum, not far from the capitol building.
That wasn't enough for some of Tennessee's Republican lawmakers, including state senator Joey Hensley, who sponsored a bill which essentially calls for a "do over." In the spirit of "keeping it simple" the bill calls for a new commission of 12 members, 4 to be selected by the governor, 4 by the lieutenant governor and 4 by the speaker of the house.
The bust of this both famous and infamous Confederate general is not a relic of Reconstruction. It's only been on display in the state capitol building since 1978.
MSNBC anchor Chris Hayes has just reported on this evocative and provocative story in a 7+ minute on-air segment, part of which is a conversation with Tennessee state representative London Lamar (D) who went on-air standing close in front of the large bronze bust.
There are two ways for Pennock's readers to welcome this 7+ minute video segment to their video monitor, smart phone screen or other Internet-capable device.
If I were to be polled on this issue right now, I would support the relocation of the statue (is a bust actually a "statue"..?) from the Tennessee State Capitol Building to the nearby Tennessee State Museum in Nashville. I see it as a "no brainer."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-20-2021).]
Only MSNBC host Chris Haynes or his acolytes would think that the bronze bust of a long dead brave and intelligent man would be 'provocative'.
If the bronze bust was of Dolly Parton, another brave and intelligent person from the Volunteer State, perhaps it might be better if the cameras didn't show a side shot of the liberal wanker in his sport coat and boxers........especially during a ZOOM tele-conference.
No one's trying to erase him from history. It's just the proposed relocation of this 3D cast bronze representation to the nearby Tennessee State Museum (a handsome edifice in its own right) where his story can be fully and fairly presented.
Perhaps you'd like to take an opportunity to enlarge (briefly) on the intellect and accomplishments of Nathan Bedford Forrest?
Very sophomoric thread title. If it wasn't a recurring theme I wouldn't comment on it.
CA, MA, CT, RI, DE, NY, OR, WA, DC, NJ are all ruled by an all pus ideology. The Southern attitude is the last hold out against globo-homo(geneity) which is why the pusifiers are concentrating on the people holding up regional icons to honor for their historical resistance.
Watching MSNBC erodes your wiener to uselessness and it's irreversible.
Very sophomoric thread title. If it wasn't a recurring theme I wouldn't comment on it.
CA, MA, CT, RI, DE, NY, OR, WA, DC, NJ are all ruled by an all pus ideology. The Southern attitude is the last hold out against globo-homo(geneity) which is why the pusifiers are concentrating on the people holding up regional icons to honor for their historical resistance.
Watching MSNBC erodes your wiener to uselessness and it's irreversible.
You need to add Virginia to the list of all pus ideology.
Only MSNBC host Chris Haynes or his acolytes would think that the bronze bust of a long dead brave and intelligent man would be 'provocative'.
If the bronze bust was of Dolly Parton, another brave and intelligent person from the Volunteer State, perhaps it might be better if the cameras didn't show a side shot of the liberal wanker in his sport coat and boxers........especially during a ZOOM tele-conference.
No one's trying to erase him from history. It's just the proposed relocation of this 3D cast bronze representation to the nearby Tennessee State Museum (a handsome edifice in its own right) where his story can be fully and fairly presented.
Perhaps you'd like to take an opportunity to enlarge (briefly) on the intellect and accomplishments of Nathan Bedford Forrest?
That could be provocative.
Define 'fully and fairly' in the mind of the people that want the bust moved. Exactly what is the true reasoning behind the proposed move?
I don't think that memorials to the Confederacy have any proper place where the people's governance is conducted, like state capitol buildings and courthouses.
I can't think of a better place than the nearby Tennessee State Museum.
A "full and fair" recounting of the life of Nathan Bedford Forrest would present him as a plantation owner and a big-time slave trader who amassed a considerable personal fortune from the fruits of the institution of Southern slavery. That alone might put him alongside Robert E. Lee in terms of how he fits into a modern perspective.
But there's more than just that on the "resume" of Nathan Bedford Forrest.
His name has become almost synonymous to the history-minded with the Fort Pillow Massacre of April 12, 1864.
quote
The Fort Pillow Massacre in Tennessee on April 12, 1864, in which some 300 African-American [U.S. or pro-Union] soldiers were killed, was one of the most controversial events of the American Civil War (1861-65). Though most of the Union garrison surrendered, and thus should have been taken as prisoners of war, the soldiers were killed. The Confederate refusal to treat these troops as traditional prisoners of war infuriated the North, and led to the Union’s refusal to participate in prisoner exchanges.
He was the first "Grand Wizard" of the Ku Klux Klan, from 1867 to 1869, and was instrumental in the creation of the original "Klan" in the aftermath of the Civil War.
I'm open to anything else that might be presented as part of his story, but his story belongs in the Tennessee State Museum.
His imposing visage, cast in bronze, should not be imposing itself on people who enter the Tennessee State Capitol Building.
For those who perused the video content and (or) the text of the two online articles that I offered, this pending relocation of "NBF" to the Tennessee State Museum seems to be some kind of "package" deal, involving a similar relocation of a bust of the Union's celebrated Civil War admiral, David Farragut, and some other U.S. or Union "guy" (I think) and maybe another Civil War-associated figure To Be Named Later plus Cash Considerations.
I'd have to review the content that I posted again to narrow that down.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-20-2021).]
I have no problem with moving the statue and including all historically accurate information. It is a much better solution than that which is often proposed in such situations. I am always opposed to anything that obscures historical truth.
Of course, the final disposition should be left to the people of Tennessee.
If you aren't from TN, your opinion has zero relevance on what the people of the State do. Stfu and mind your own business.
The majority of states defined marriage in their constitutions or passed laws defining it. What pansies did (approximately 4 couples per state) was move into the states and file federal cases to overturn the state's decisions. The United States didn't approve homo marriage. Federal judges did and forced it on the people. Nobody around here cared who was homosexual prior to the dictate. Now they do.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-20-2021).]
I won't say that I couldn't be mistaken about this, but I don't think that big bronze bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest has a long term lease anymore on its current domicile in the Tennessee State Capitol building.
Of course, that prediction could reflect some wishful thinking on my part.
But this isn't really about Tennessee or what happens there.
It's about me. About what I want to put on display here. What thoughts and ideas I want to express. When there are others who engage a Topic that I have started with their own Reply messages, that adds to the experience for me in a positive way. More positive, or less positive, depending on who (particularly) from the Pennock's roster comes in and what they have to say.
For me, it's entirely recreational. Like a hobby. A very slowed down way of having my coffee.
In this way I become part of the forum's evolving (or is it merely "revolving"..?) aesthetic, and I have no reason to think that this is not entirely within the permission structure of my Pennock's user account.
I won't say that I couldn't be mistaken about this, but I don't think that big bronze bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest has a long term lease anymore on its current domicile in the Tennessee State Capitol building.
Of course, that prediction could reflect some wishful thinking on my part.
But this isn't really about Tennessee or what happens there.
It's about me. About what I want to put on display here. What thoughts and ideas I want to express. When there are others who engage a Topic that I have started with their own Reply messages, that adds to the experience for me in a positive way. More positive, or less positive, depending on who (particularly) from the Pennock's roster comes in and what they have to say.
For me, it's entirely recreational. Like a hobby. A very slowed down way of having my coffee.
In this way I become part of the forum's evolving (or is it merely "revolving"..?) aesthetic, and I have no reason to think that this is not entirely within the permission structure of my Pennock's user account.
"QED"
You have no say in how the business of my state is conducted on a state level. Any attempts to interfere will be met with a jaded eye.
Originally posted by rinselberg: I don't think that memorials to the Confederacy have any proper place where the people's governance is conducted, like state capitol buildings and courthouses.
Who do you think you are ? A new and improved Carpetbagger ? I don't think so.
Originally posted by Hudini: You have no say in how the business of my state is conducted on a state level. Any attempts to interfere will be met with a jaded eye.
The first thing about this "Hudini-ism" is that it leaves me wondering what part of my message he did not understand. I mean the message from me that he reproduced using the Quote format, right before he said "You have no say . . ."
The second thing is that--well, let me go back to the first thing. I didn't say that I had any say about what happens in Tennessee. I just expressed an opinion about it.
"Attempts to interfere" . . ? Not from me. I'm not that into this thing. But if I did try to "interfere" in some way, I think I'd keep it to myself. I don't think I would talk about it here.
So there is no second thing. Actually there was, but I didn't like how it turned out, so I deleted it.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-21-2021).]
The first thing about this "Hudini-ism" is that it leaves me wondering what part of my message he did not understand. I mean the message from me that he reproduced using the Quote format, right before he said "You have no say . . ."
The second thing is that--well, let me go back to the first thing. I didn't say that I had any say about what happens in Tennessee. I just expressed an opinion about it.
"Attempts to interfere" . . ? Not from me. I'm not that into this thing. But if I did try to "interfere" in some way, I think I'd keep it to myself. I don't think I would talk about it here.
So there is no second thing. Actually there was, but I didn't like how it turned out, so I deleted it.
Seriously? I don't get out much and even I recognize the obvious message. IOWs, your opinion doesn't mean squat in TN. Of course, that pretty much sums up things in most of the civilized and uncivilized world also.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 03-21-2021).]
It's more about the quality of the reporting itself than about my opinion about the bronze.
When that video rolls, there's a first part and a second part, and the second part is the Tennessee state representative that's in the conversation about the bronze, and guess where's she's standing?
Right in front of the bronze.
So you see her talking about the bronze and the bronze itself is "looking" directly upon her from behind, and from a somewhat higher vantage point. And when you look above her head, you see the bronze. As if you are looking directly into the eyes of the bronze itself.
I can't think of a better way to have set up that interview.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-21-2021).]
But this isn't really about Tennessee or what happens there.
It's about me. About what I want to put on display here. What thoughts and ideas I want to express. When there are others who engage a Topic that I have started with their own Reply messages, that adds to the experience for me in a positive way. More positive, or less positive, depending on who (particularly) from the Pennock's roster comes in and what they have to say.
For me, it's entirely recreational. Like a hobby. A very slowed down way of having my coffee.
In this way I become part of the forum's evolving (or is it merely "revolving"..?) aesthetic, and I have no reason to think that this is not entirely within the permission structure of my Pennock's user account.
"QED"
Since it's about 'you' perhps you could adress the 2 questions I asked.
quote
Define 'fully and fairly' in the mind of the people that want the bust moved. Exactly what is the true reasoning behind the proposed move?
The Tn Capital building is the 7th most visited state capital building in the nation, being beat only by the capital buildings in: 1. Boston Mass 2. Madison Wisc. 3. Austin Tx. 4. Annapolis Md. 5. Raleigh N.C. 6. Denver Colo. 7. Nashville Tn. 8. Providence R.I. 9. Sacramento Calif. 10. Olympia Washington
(The bottom 10 are: 41. Tallahassee, Florida 42. Frankfort, Kentucky 43. Jefferson City, Missouri 44. Jackson, Mississippi 45. Dover, Delaware 46. Baton Rouge, Louisiana 47. Hartford, Connecticut 48. Augusta, Maine 49. Carson City, Nevada 50. Trenton, New Jersey)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-21-2021).]
It is rather uninteresting. Built strictly for function, rather than for aesthetics.
Historic one is in the foreground, the new one is in the background (we are facing the back. They literally just built them back to back. The old one is a museum, the new one pretty much just looks like an office building... but I suppose they did what they could.
Define 'fully and fairly' in the mind of the people that want the bust moved.
Exactly what is the true reasoning behind the proposed move?
Hello and thanks for two great questions.
There's so many moving parts to these questions that I think it is not possible to address them fully and fairly in a single, brief "face to face" like this. It likely would involve several messages from all of the stakeholders here--maryjane, myself and anyone else that wants "In" on it--to drill down into this and reach any significant depth of understanding.
Let me start, though. This is like an MLB pitcher's first offering to a batter that's just stepped up to the plate. I'm just going to lay it in here, center cut, nothing special. This is Copy and Paste from a recent news-style report from Aljazeera online. The English language edition. (I can't read Arabic.)
quote
[Nathan Bedford] Forrest had amassed a large fortune as a plantation owner and slave trader in Memphis before the Civil War broke out in 1861.
A Confederate cavalry general during the war, he became a post-war leader of the Klan, which terrorised Black people and sought to reverse Reconstruction efforts and restore white supremacy.
“Forrest represents pain, suffering and brutal crimes committed against African Americans, and that pain is very real for our fellow Tennesseans as they walk the halls of our statehouse and evaluate how he could be one of just the nine busts elevated to a place of reverence,” [Tennessee] Governor Bill Lee [a Republican] said in a recorded video message during Tuesday’s [March 9, 2021] meeting.
As one of the general officers of the Army of the Confederacy or AOC Nathan Bedford Forrest's name is linked with the Fort Pillow massacre. Just use that link and you can browse very quickly and get an instant overview of the Fort Pillow massacre, which seems not to have any connection to the MyPillow guy, Mike Lindell, known as a prominent Trump supporter and ally.
On the aforementioned March 8, 2021, the Tennessee Historical Commission voted 25-1 in favor of relocating the imposing bronze of Nathan Bedford Forrest from the Capitol Building to the Tennessee State Museum, which is close by to the Capitol Building. The Commission also voted to effect the same relocation on a bronze of the Civil War's big time US Navy Admiral David Farragut, and another bronze of US Navy Admiral Albert Gleaves, a Nashville native who was only 3 years old when the first "kinetic action" of the Civil War took place, when the "South" turned their cannons loose on the island installation that was US Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina.
The Aljazeera report adds this:
quote
The decision [of the Tennessee Historical Commission] was that state and federal officials should be honored at the [Tennessee State] Museum rather than in the Capitol [Building.]
I glean from the Aljazeera report that there are, beyond the ones already named, bronzes or statues in the Capitol Building that honor six other specimens of humanity, but without further research, I know not their names or their significance.
From Aljazeera, again:
quote
If no review is requested, the removal plan becomes effective 120 days after the decision is posted on the commission’s website.
The bronze of Nathan Bedford Forrest first appeared in the Capitol Building in 1978. In 1980 some guys in Ku Klux Klan garb used it as a backdrop for a photograph that was published in some newspapers. (At least one.)
What's happened after the Tennessee Historical Commission voted out their recommendations on these bronzes? I quote from my own Original Post:
quote
That wasn't enough for some of Tennessee's Republican lawmakers, including state senator Joey Hensley, who sponsored a bill which essentially calls for a "do over." In the spirit of "keeping it simple" the bill calls for a new commission of 12 members, 4 to be selected by the governor, 4 by the lieutenant governor and 4 by the speaker of the house.
So there you have it. My first offering. What comes next in this At Bat is up to maryjane or anyone else that wants to play.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-21-2021).]
According to MSNBC anchor Chris Hayes's video report, the bronze of Nathan Bedford Forrest was placed in the state capitol building in 1978 "in response" to the placement in the capitol building of a bronze or statue of one of the Civil War's Union heroes, US Navy Admiral David Farragut.
In 1980 the "Tennessean" newspaper published a front page photo of three men in Ku Klux Klan regalia, using the bronze of Nathan Bedford Forrest as a backdrop.
Here's what one of Nathan Bedford Forrest's modern day descendants, Brett Forrest, had to say almost a year ago:
quote
“Once my grandfather discovered [our ancestry] the family kind of took it to heart. They’re very proud of it. I can’t remember at what point my dad got that painting [of Forrest] in his living room, but I remember I was always kind of uncomfortable with it. It’s a giant portrait. The portrait has him sitting on a horse riding, looking very militaristic and very heroic … in his Confederate uniform.
“My family likes to tout that he was the first grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan but he left the organization when he realized it was not just a social club; they were secretly lynching the Black community. And so he left when he figured that out, which makes him a good guy. And I’m of the mindset: If that’s all it takes to be a good guy, I think you need a bit more, especially if you’re going to be honoring him.”
“[My] letter to the editor made my Dad pretty much yell at me for about 30 minutes the other day when I called him for Father’s Day. My Dad said, ‘You know, he was a tactical genius on the battlefield. They still study his tactics to this day. That's what we’re proud of.’ And he also said—this was a good one—‘his slaves loved him. So that shows he wasn’t a bad guy.’ My counterpoint was ‘I’m sure the slaves would have loved to not be slaves.’ He also brought up the point, ‘You can’t put today’s morals on history because,’ he said, ‘if I had been born at that time, I’d probably own slaves myself,’ which I said was a very strong possibility. But that doesn’t change how I feel about it today.
“Any sort of honoring or glorifying of him probably is past its due now. I’m of the mindset: Yeah, it’s a part of our history, so don’t erase it or forget it. Just don’t glorify it.”
quote
Brett Forrest, 30, is a journalist in Colorado Springs who grew up in the shadow of a nearly life-sized portrait of his Civil War ancestor. He broke his public silence about his lineage in a letter to The Tennessean newspaper on June 20, calling for the removal of the bust in Nashville.
"Why the Descendants of Confederate Generals Are Happy to See Their Names Go"
quote
As the Senate prepares to debate renaming military bases, we called living family members of the generals. Here's what they said.
[Nathan Bedford] Forrest, born in Tennessee in 1821, was a Confederate hero and post-war leader of the Ku Klux Klan who was implicated in the slaughter of 300 black Union Army soldiers in the Fort Pillow Massacre of 1864. His bust is featured in the Tennessee state capitol and he is honored with a state holiday. Fort Campbell in Kentucky, home of the Army’s elite 101st Airborne Division, also has a main thoroughfare named in his honor.
I think the obvious way to interpret the report from Chris Hayes which aired just the other day on MSNBC is as a response to the "do over" bill that was sponsored by Tennessee state senator Joey Hensley (R), calling for a new 12-member commission after the Tennessee Historical Commission voted 25-1 to send the Nathan Bedford Forrest bronze "packing" to the nearby Tennessee State Museum, along with a representation of Union Admiral David Farragut and another US Navy Admiral who was only a toddler in 1861 when the Civil War began.
If that "do over" bill doesn't gain traction in the state assembly, the story of these bronzes would seem likely to recede into MSNBC's (and my) rearview mirror.
On the other hand, if the bill does gain traction . . . "stay tuned."
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-22-2021).]
Democrats did some racist bad things back in the day. Democrats are embarrassed about their history and try to eliminate it. Republicans are somehow evil and racist ???
Democrats did some racist bad things back in the day. Democrats are embarrassed about their history and try to eliminate it. Republicans are somehow evil and racist ???
Democrats did some racist bad things back in the day. Democrats are embarrassed about their history and try to eliminate it. Republicans are somehow evil and racist ???
Here is that evil "Democrat" that is trying to get the bust moved......
By the way.....Have any of you got a picture of the Democrat's "Leftist Laser" that converts Republicans into Rinos or worse (Leftists)...?
Originally posted by rinselberg: I don't think that memorials to the Confederacy have any proper place where the people's governance is conducted, like state capitol buildings and courthouses.
We have three State holidays in Texas rinselberg. Independence Day, the day we declared independence. San Jacinto Day, the day we won independence. I don't have the heart to tell you the third one.
If the 'Leftist Laser's did exist, could the polarity be reversed to easily undo the Leftist brainwashing of the last two generations by our public school system?
Could it really be that easy.
cvxjet, I used to be very liberal.
Then I got out into the real world and experienced how things work - - - and I grew up.
We have three State holidays in Texas rinselberg. Independence Day, the day we declared independence. San Jacinto Day, the day we won independence. I don't have the heart to tell you the third one.
Is it five months before Juneteenth?
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 03-23-2021).]
The aforementioned Confederate General, Nathan Bedford Forrest, spoke publicly on July 5, 1875, to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association, a post-war organization of black Southerners advocating to improve the economic condition of blacks and to gain equal rights for all citizens.
Nathan Bedford Forrest's "Pole-Bearers" address has been cited by people that might be called "the friends of Nathan Bedford Forrest" to assert that the antebellum plantation owner and slave trader, Confederate general and first Grand Wizard of the original version of the Ku Klux Klan was not a racist, or even a particularly "bad" guy.
If you consult the text of that speech--I just provided the link and the speech is only four paragraphs--Nathan Bedford Forrest touches obliquely on the Fort Pillow massacre, without explicitly denying that he bears responsibility or explicitly denying that the ordered any of the Confederate soldiers under his command to butcher the Union Army's black soldiers instead of taking them as prisoners of war.
quote
Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed.
Nathan Bedford Forrest's conciliatory remarks on that occasion were not received with enthusiasm by at least one other veteran of the Confederate States Army--a "Captain E. Eve"--as documented by a modern day commentator who found an archival account from the Augusta Chronicle of July 31, 1875:
quote
I was looking around recently for some background to the famous Pole-Bearers address given by Nathan Bedford Forrest in July 1875 at Memphis. In his speech to the Freedmen’s group, Forrest emphasized the importance of African Americans building their community, participating in elections, and both races moving forward in peace. Just prior to making his remarks, Forrest was presented a bouquet of flowers by an African American girl, and responded by giving the girl a kiss on the cheek. This single event is sometimes cited as proof that the former slave dealer and Klan leader “wasn’t a racist” or some similar nonsense, as if that modern term had much import in mid-19th century America.
I’ll have more to say about the Pole Bearers speech another time, but if you ever wondered how Forrest’s actions that day were perceived by at least some of his former comrades in gray, now we know. They weren’t happy about it, and went to considerable efforts to say so . . .
Sounds like many can see the Forrest and the trees, afterall.
Look up "posse comitatus". Reconstruction government was so oppressive that something had to be done about it. Therein may lie some reason for Klan groups.
All the more reason to relocate the bronze of Nathan Bedford Forrest from the Capitol Building to the State Museum, where a full and fair accounting of the man and his life can be presented in a way that the Capitol Building cannot accommodate, unless the Capitol Building is made into a dual purpose Capitol Building and Museum, which would duplicate the function of the State Museum and so represent an expensive redundancy.
The Tennessee State Museum already has a section for the Civil War.
As I've remarked here already, the Historical Commission voted 25-1 in favor of the relocation, which is a "package" that also includes a bronze of Union Admiral David Farragut and another US Navy Admiral who belongs to the period after the Civil War. (He was born in Nashville.)
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-24-2021).]
I don't get out much and even I recognize the obvious message. 
