Says the person attacking Trump day in and day out.
I understand skepticism. Even dislike. But you are way past trolling this issue. Proof after proof has been given but you will not listen. You are not stupid so this means your mind has been made up and nothing will convince you otherwise. And everyone here knows it. You are not fooling anyone.
First off, I am not attacking Trump. I am asking for details (proof) of what agreements he made (I don't need proof that they talked, that is a given). Are his talks classified? Since he is not Prez yet, we have no documentation... Trump knows this and that is why he is being vague.
Here IS what we know.... and it seems that tax payer money is being used to bailout the jobs... wouldn't that be like the bailout of GM? Hmmm, Oh well, I know, I know... Trump doesn't need to explain, only wave his magic wand and people will believe:
"United Technologies collects about $5.6 billion in annual revenue from U.S. government contracts, according to company filings, which is equal to about 10% of its overall revenue. The government also pays for nearly $1.5 billion of the company's annual research and development spending. "
" Under a deal negotiated by Vice President-elect Mike Pence and UTX CEO Greg Hayes, the company will now keep most of those jobs in Indiana, sources close to the matter told CNBC.
While terms of the deal are not yet clear, the sources indicated there were new incentives on offer from the state of Indiana, where Pence is governor, that helped clear a path for the agreement. "
"By enabling Carrier's Indianapolis plant to stay open, the deal spares about 800 union workers whose jobs were going to be outsourced to Mexico, according to federal officials who were briefed by the heating and air conditioning company. This suggests that hundreds will still lose their jobs at the factory, where roughly 1,400 workers were slated to be laid off.
Also, neither Trump nor Carrier has yet to say what the workers might have to give up or precisely what threats or incentives were used to get the manufacturer to change its mind."
"The company attributed its decision to the incoming Trump administration and financial incentives provided by Indiana, which is something of a reversal, since earlier offers from the state had failed to sway Carrier from decamping to Mexico."
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 12-01-2016).]
LOL... at what cost to taxpayers? This seems more like a bailout. Here in Michigan, we have had our fair share of tax breaks for corporations, for the promise of jobs. Taxpayers and employees end up screwed, which the companies move out of state anyway.
Where did I lie, Cliff? Name calling again... typical.
It is very clear that Trump is a favorite of a few here. Just relax, take it all in, everything he gives you, without question.... that is the Trump way. One must never question the words of Trump
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Originally posted by cliffw:
Perhaps one day you will open your lying eyes.
If you did, you would see interviews with people whose jobs were to be lost and now are saved. You may not want to believe Trump. They want to shake his hand.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 12-01-2016).]
They didnt release specific details, but news reports that Trump and Pence (governor) gave Carrier some tax incentives to stay. Thats totally common and within everyones guidelines for cities and states to do for corporations. Columbus has done the same thing for dozens of local companies here. Its not a handout (bailout) based on your conspiracy theories. That would fall directly under their promises to cut taxes and restrictions to businesses. 1,000 people still have a job now that would have been unemployed...thats a benefit to the city/state all by itself.
They didnt release specific details, but news reports that Trump and Pence (governor) gave Carrier some tax incentives to stay. Thats totally common and within everyones guidelines for cities and states to do for corporations. Columbus has done the same thing for dozens of local companies here. Its not a handout (bailout) based on your conspiracy theories. That would fall directly under their promises to cut taxes and restrictions to businesses. 1,000 people still have a job now that would have been unemployed...thats a benefit to the city/state all by itself.
So you support the money/loans given to GM and Chrysler...
Yup... and we can hold his accountable for his actions (well, when he actually becomes POTUS).
I am with you on this 100% If it was in Engrish.
The highest standards should be held by our President. They are the ambassador of a nation. I am sick to my stomach as to where we have gone to. Regan was regal. Clinton began the slide. False fun became the norm. Credit and 50" tvs became the norm. Why work when the government will help you live?
So you support the money/loans given to GM and Chrysler...
NO, unless they were given as loans to be paid back. Chrysler did...GM bailed. Thats as you like to say, apples and oranges anyway, since those are nothing like giving tax breaks to a company. Few get bailouts. Lots get incentives and business loans from the government and are as common as grass. Theres even special departments in the government to disperse them, like Small Bunsiness Administration, FEMA, Veterans Administration,etc. Id have no problem getting a SBA loan at all...but I dont stand a chance of getting a bailout penny.
And you see, we don't know what was promised... PLUS the parent company already gets US money for R&D. Did Trump promise more money? Who knows. Trump doesn't seem to care about other people's money, so I wouldn't put it past him to give away everything, as long as it makes him look good.
BTW, tax incentives (lost revenue)... someone still has to pay for the surrounding city infrastructure (which the company is using to make profits).
Now... How much money was the tax incentives? Will we ever know? Residents should be asking this question before supporting this UNION JOB bailout (and yeah, that is what it is).
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Originally posted by rogergarrison:
NO, unless they were given as loans to be paid back. Chrysler did...GM bailed. Thats as you like to say, apples and oranges anyway, since those are nothing like giving tax breaks to a company. Few get bailouts. Lots get incentives and business loans from the government and are as common as grass. Theres even special departments in the government to disperse them, like Small Bunsiness Administration, FEMA, Veterans Administration,etc. Id have no problem getting a SBA loan at all...but I dont stand a chance of getting a bailout penny.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 12-01-2016).]
The state Governor is the one who brokers state incentives to a company. That boils down to Pence's 'deal' whatever it was. Trump might have just negotiated it. Feds cant give state incentives. In the long run, it isnt lost revenue...the state wont have a derelict, abandoned building to add more blight, and they dont have to pay benefits to 1,000 unemployed workers. They still collect taxes even if its smaller amount. Its a win for everyone. So the company gets something like an annual 30% property tax cut for 10 years...big deal. You just dont like the republicans won, so anything that happens is bad. Like Hillary, get over it.
Yup... and we can hold his accountable for his actions (well, when he actually becomes POTUS).
Funny how you are all too willing to hold Trump accountable for his actions but yet you didn't seem too willing or eager to hold Hillary or Obama accountable for their actions...
But the truth is we wouldn't even be talking about the need to "save jobs" or "bring jobs back" if Clinton didn't sign NAFTA and the democrats didn't constantly push their insane taxation and regulatory policies. The TPP deal was NAFTA 2.0 that both Obama and Hillary support, which would have further drained jobs from the U.S.. And now we've got democrats in California trying to "regulate" cow farts - of all things. I'm sure that is going to go a long way towards keeping jobs in California too.
In business, there is a cause and effect correlation in play. Increasing the tax and regulation burden on businesses while giving them an avenue of escape (to move their operations overseas) is going to always result in more American jobs lost.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-01-2016).]
So, when is Trump going to stop having his clothes manufactured outside the US? Oh yeah, never, while he sits on an unsecured line, abusing a position of power he's not actually been elected to yet (recount is happening, and Electoral College votes in another 2 weeks), to further his own business interests, stealing money from US taxpayers.
But yeah, it's great that Carrier says somebody at Carrier talked to Trump, and they are still opening a plant in Mexico, and the jobs in IN are still going away, because really, 85% of manufacturing jobs that have been "lost" over the last few decades in the US haven't gone out of country, but to machine automation.
But yeah, I learned a long time ago that white "working class" Americans love shooting themselves in the feet, a long time ago.
First off, I am not attacking Trump. I am asking for details (proof) of what agreements he made (I don't need proof that they talked, that is a given).
I'm loving this Jaski... all I can tell you is... buckle up, and get ready for an awesome ride.
Wrong. Deflecting again. Last time I checked, neither Hillary nor Obama will be POTUS come mid-January.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Funny how you are all too willing to hold Trump accountable for his actions but yet you didn't seem too willing or eager to hold Hillary or Obama accountable for their actions...
Originally posted by rogergarrison: You just dont like the republicans won, so anything that happens is bad. Like Hillary, get over it.
HUH? Wrong again. Congrats to the republicans... what few are left. They have a new monster to deal with.
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison: They still collect taxes even if its smaller amount. Its a win for everyone. So the company gets something like an annual 30% property tax cut for 10 years...big deal.
Yes, it is a big deal. Come on up to Flint and Saginaw. I will show you first hand how well "tax incentatives" work for the middle class and for the cities. Lots of empty promises from corporations and businesses. You know this, but ignore it.
Wrong. Deflecting again. Last time I checked, neither Hillary nor Obama will be POTUS come mid-January.
Who deflected first? You are the one that said we should hold Trump accountable. I responded by asking why you want us to do that when you didn't do it with Obama and Clinton...A question which you refused to answer.
But the truth is we wouldn't even be talking about the need to "save jobs" or "bring jobs back" if Clinton didn't sign NAFTA and the democrats didn't constantly push their insane taxation and regulatory policies. The TPP deal was NAFTA 2.0 that both Obama and Hillary support, which would have further drained jobs from the U.S.
In business, there is a cause and effect correlation in play. Increasing the tax and regulation burden on businesses while giving them an avenue of escape (to move their operations overseas) is going to always result in more American jobs lost.
Who deflected first? You are the one that said we should hold Trump accountable. I responded by asking why you want us to do that when you didn't do it with Obama and Clinton...A question which you refused to answer.
Trump makes a claim.... there are ZERO details. Asking to hold him accountable is not deflecting. Obama isn't running. Hillary didn't win. Both are not even related to this topic. If you want to talk about Obama and Hillary, there are plenty of threads for which you can go back to and dig up.
Trump makes a claim.... there are ZERO details. ....
There are a few details laid out here within this thread. You know this, but refuse to acknowledge. So, it becomes our fault that you are unable to read.
I like to hear what the details are and try to see if they are things that can be reprodoced.
Unless there are policies that are sustainable,repeatable, profitable and available for all I'm not going to be encouraged by a pony that can only do one trick once.
This is the kind of thing I'd expect from a non politician though. I hope he can find the different avenues that link profit for everyone concerned. There are laws to everything . Everything costs something. Someone has to give up something in any negotiation. A little less taxation is better than none. A little less pay is better than none. Convincing a corporation that a decent profit while staying in the US is better than a great profit working abroad;that might be the hardest sell. But everyone needs to agree to the standard ideal of keeping America competitive. Even the consumer needs to get on board by putting a preferential on buying from American made companies. Maybe Trump can convince people to seek out these balances to our countries ultimate benefit.
Eyes wide open for sure but don't dismiss. Don't cover your eyes and hope everything will be ok either.
The last I heard Carrier is still moving 500 jobs to MX, but keeping 1000 here. All it cost the taxpayers is $70million. No mention of penalties for the 500 jobs moving. $70 million for 1000 jobs, who won that one?
So happy for you American's that you are getting this pathetic excuse for a human being out of the White House, and are on track to restoring your country to the once great nation it was before he took power.
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 12-01-2016).]
The last I heard Carrier is still moving 500 jobs to MX, but keeping 1000 here. All it cost the taxpayers is $70million. No mention of penalties for the 500 jobs moving. $70 million for 1000 jobs, who won that one?
It's $7 million in tax breaks or $700 per job. Taxpayers would have to fork out more than that a month per employee for 99 weeks.
A bargain, a huge savings for taxpayers and it gives 1000 people dignity and meaningful work instead of government funded unemployment.
Awesome, a civilian did more for carrier than the sitting President. I would say that is 70% more than Obama did for them if it were not for His policies being 95% of the reason any company considers offshore options.
Yes, it is a big deal. Come on up to Flint and Saginaw. I will show you first hand how well "tax incentatives" work for the middle class and for the cities. Lots of empty promises from corporations and businesses. You know this, but ignore it.
Michigan is bankrupt. They can offer no one any incentive to stay in that cesspool. I wouldnt live in most of it if someone gave me $100,000 annual salary. The only thing that can possibly help Mi, is a lot of cuts in regulations and people interested in going there.
"whatever republicans are left" They have the White House, House of Reps, Senate and soon the Supreme Court. Its the democrats that are dropping like flies. Like said above...buckle up.
The last I heard Carrier is still moving 500 jobs to MX, but keeping 1000 here. All it cost the taxpayers is $70million. No mention of penalties for the 500 jobs moving. $70 million for 1000 jobs, who won that one?
Yes its been mentioned...anything any company makes outside the US and tries to sell in the US WILL PAY a hefty import tax or wont be able to sell it . Those trucks trying to bring mexican made Carrier a/cs wont get across the border unless their smuggled. Ill bet the workers that still have their US jobs figure they won. EVEN if it did cost 70 million, at least thats money spent for the US instead of the billions we send to Iraq, Iran, Syria, Pakistan and Afghanistan. If Trump still makes clothes outside the US, he just has to pay the same import tax as everyone else...so his prices will go up. soooo??
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 12-01-2016).]
Michigan is bankrupt. They can offer no one any incentive to stay in that cesspool. I wouldnt live in most of it if someone gave me $100,000 annual salary. The only thing that can possibly help Mi, is a lot of cuts in regulations and people interested in going there.
"whatever republicans are left" They have the White House, House of Reps, Senate and soon the Supreme Court. Its the democrats that are dropping like flies. Like said above...buckle up.
Michigan went bankrupt under the Regan admin, that's when all the jobs here left the country. They took the tax breaks and built new factories in MX.
I thought Id seen that democrats ran Mi for last 50 years... I could be wrong about that since I just dont pay attention to Mi at all.
"as Detroit goes, so does Michigan...
But amidst the good times, the seeds of Detroit’s future disintegration were being sown. In some cases this occurred in very obvious ways that everyone could plainly see, most notably a rising militancy among local community organizers angered by what they perceived to be the slow pace of civil-rights reforms. Rev. Albert Cleague and other Detroit-area activists openly called for black separatism and self-determination, on the premise that whites would never voluntarily choose to share political power with blacks. At a July 1967 Black Power rally in Detroit, the radical H. Rap Brown gave voice to the city's growing unrest when he warned that if “Motown” did not make sufficient reforms, “we are going to burn you down.”
In other ways, the seeds of Detroit's eventual decline germinated quietly, scarcely noticed, and with implications that few could appreciate at the time. Most significantly, in 1961 the reins of political power in the city fell permanently into Democratic Party hands. In the 53 years that have passed since then, Detroit has not had a single Republican mayor. Indeed it has elected only one Republican to its City Council since 1970. As it has become a political monoculture, it has also become a failed city.
The first mayor of Detroit's Democratic Party era, Jerome Cavanagh (1962-70), was a proud white liberal who greatly expanded the role of government in his city and took pains to appoint blacks to prominent positions in his administration—including police chief.
Cavanagh also served on the “Model Cities” task force that President Lyndon Johnson launched in 1966 as part of his Great Society and War on Poverty programs. Distantly echoing Soviet efforts to rebuild urban areas in Eastern Europe, this centralized approach to urban development was seen in the '60s as the hallmark of a new era. Along with United Auto Workers president Walter Reuther, Cavanagh persuaded President Johnson to designate a nine-square-mile section of Detroit—an area where 134,000 people (one-ninth of the city's population) resided—as a pilot location for the Model Cities initiative. The overriding objective of Model Cities was to demonstrate the amazing things that massive federal grants could accomplish in terms of rehabilitating a physically and socially decrepit neighborhood—i.e., replace slums with publicly financed “affordable housing”; alleviate poverty by injecting rivers of taxpayer money into social programs; provide ghetto dwellers with federally funded jobs at municipal and nonprofit agencies; and create a host of job-training, healthcare, educational, and recreational facilities for the poor. In just a few short years, $490 million in federal funds were poured into Detroit to bankroll these programs. On top of this, Cavanaugh was able to get Michigan's state legislature to pass a “commuter tax” and a new income tax that would help pay for the Model Cities program and would be borne entirely by “the rich.”
The government giveaways not only failed to imbue their beneficiaries with the values and motivations necessary for upward mobility, but actually fostered resentment at the paternalism embedded in the Model Cities program—the idea that “disadvantaged” people's decisions about where they could live, where they could build businesses, and how they should run those enterprises should be micromanaged by a bureaucratic elite.
In the final analysis, for all the hugger mugger at its launching, Detroit's Model City program proved to be little more than a boondoggle into which at least half-a-billion taxpayer dollars purchased precious little in terms of urban regeneration. Some contend that the program “worked,” in the sense that it temporarily—albeit at an unsustainable cost—decreased poverty and unemployment slightly in the targeted communities. But instead of encouraging entrepreneurship and self-reliance, it promoted mainly dependence on government. Thus the program led to no lasting gains for its “beneficiaries.” By 1990, Detroit's Model City area had lost 63% of its population and 45% of its housing units. On balance, most analysts now view the program as having been a dismal failure.
Mayor Cavanaugh's political and economic policies failed not only to resuscitate Detroit's blighted neighborhoods, but also to assuage the percolating rage of local black militants. With every guilty gesture of appeasement and recompense that the mayor made, the radicals only grew more righteously indignant at the inadequacy of those gestures. In short, a “revolution of rising expectations” was intractably gaining momentum. And then, in July 1967, Detroit was the scene of the decade's most horrific race riot—43 deaths, nearly 1,200 injuries, over 7,200 arrests, and more than 2,000 buildings destroyed. The effects of this calamity would not be short-lived. Indeed the riots triggered a massive “white flight” out of central Detroit, which saw at least 140,000 people move away within a mere 18 months. With a large share of its tax base thus depleted, the city would never be the same again. "
Like I said last I heard the number keeps changing, until we get an "official" number no one will know for sure. They are still losing 1300 jobs to MX though.
They have the White House, House of Reps, Senate and soon the Supreme Court. Its the democrats that are dropping like flies. Like said above...buckle up.
