I've read through the thread you attached. Wow... that is quite an interesting discussion accompaning the development. To be honest, I am only a humble marine engineer and the automotive world is certainly not my field of expertise. My plans are to simply replace the existing OEM suspension and brakes with aftermarket pieces that improve the handling and performance slightly yet retaining the original geometry as much as possible, keeping in mind I am doing an F355 that's low and wide. I do not possess the knowledge or experience to go much beyond that point. However, as an engineer I find the various threads fascinating and educational and am not above incorporating more significant improvements should they become available and I have the technical backup and support to implement them.
With the 3" chassis stretch almost completed, the next step is the 3" stretch of the engine cradle. However, those pictures are on another memory stick somewhere here on my desk so until I find them, I'll post details of the progress to reinforce the chassis in way of the rocker panels. As you may recall, this project will be a 355 Spider so I have been researching and reading as much info as possible on the topic of chassis reinforcement......... and there are certainly many schools of thought on this topic. With some input and suggestions from other forum members, I have designed what I hope will produce a strong structure that resists bending and twisting without reducing ground clearance or interfering with the 355 body.
The reinforcement structure will be fabricated from a combination of 3" x 3" x 1/8" HSS and 3" x 1 1/2" x 1/8" HSS with 1/4" plate gussets in the corners for added strength. The front end will follow the curved surface of the wheelwell / A pillar, replace the factory sheet metal rockers, pass through the B pillar and then proceed upward at 60 deg to intersect the upper rear frame rail just forward of the rear wheel.
I know it may be hard to visualize the part without the drawing of the chassis included, however, that part of the 3D model is still in progress and I hate to post incomplete drawings.
The drivers side was started first by removing the original rocker sheet metal. I left about an inch of the top so that when the new structure is fitted, it will be at the same height of the original rocker panel body work. I wanted to be sure the new structure was not so high as to interfer with the 355 rocker body panel.
We used a laser to shoot a straight line around the A pillar and B pillar before laying down some masking tape to assist in cutting the correct profile.
The bottom edge of the original rocker sheet metal was left as well and then folded upward to give some extra support to the new structure. The new structure will be welded along the top line of the rocker sheet metal, along the bottom flange of the sheet metal as well as a few plug welds along the inside door sill.
It was also necessary to remove the seatbelt anchor point. This will be added to the new structure in the factory location. This is a part most Fiero enthusiasts never see and never want to see.
Once all the required sheet metal was removed, we test fitted the 3" x 3" x 1/8" HSS to see how it fits at the pillars, along the door sill and at the upper rear frame rail.
We are happy with the initial fit so now we will fabricate the structure completely and then fit it to the chassis and secure it in place. With the design and arrangement of the structure, the entire part can be fabricated and welded 100% off the car before final installation.
Once it is complete, we'll post pictures of the final installation of both sides. The next step will be to design and fabricate a structure to secure to the engine side of the firewall which will strengthen the chassis transverely by tieing both the upper and lower frame rails together. Once this is done, it will be time to make the big cut and remove the roof.
edit: remove photo of family member
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 02-23-2015).]
Good job with the cutting... very small gaps between the sheet metal and the new tube. That will help a bunch when it comes to welding everything back together.
Just a suggestion, you might want to install the fuel fill tube to make sure it clears the reinforcement.
Thanks Fieroguru, we tried hard to get a nice clean cut on the sheet metal. When it comes time to tack and weld, it will press tight against the new structure I am hoping. There was some extra sheet metal inside those pillars that were spot welded and caulked. I don't know how they ever got the welding robot inside. ha-ha
The fuel fill is certainly a concern. I've measured the Blooz's car twice now just to be sure it will fit. It's going to be close for sure but with the body work being so wide back there I think it's just going to fit. Might only be able to get the tip of the gas nozzle in though Also, the vertical frame will line in under the upper frame rail which buys me a few more inches under the body work for the fuel fill.
I noticed you are planning to run the HT suspension. I have it installed on my 88GT. The tubular fron suspension w/ coil overs is pretty sweet. My only complaint is how low the low mount hangs for the coil over. Its REALLY low. Just an FYI.
What a great idea using a laser to find a straight line on those curved parts. I mean once you see someone doing it, it seems an obvious means, but it's thinking about it in the first place that's the innovative part. Super clean lines on those cuts by the way. I see you're letting the boys do the grunt work. I bet you just knew they'd eventually come in handy.
Thanks Blooz, the laser is just a hardware store one but it is so easy to shoort the lines. I need to get a little tripod for it.
Yes, the boys are doing as much of the work as possible.... under close supervision btw. But they are really enjoying it and will learn so much about the car.
I managed to drive fro Yarmouth to Boston with 6 boat models in glass display cases today without a single mishap so hopefully the windshields will make it home just as well. Keep your fingers crossed.
Well the extended windshields are finally home safe and sound. It was certainly a group effort starting with 355Fiero and Steve from PA together with ALLTRBO, Bloozberry and myself. But 2800 km round trip as 30 hours of highway driving plus a 3 hour ferry ride across the Bay of Fundy each way got them from MD to rural Nova Scotia intact. They are in safe keeping with Blooz for now.
4 extended 355 windshields
Crated and ready to load
Loaded and ready for the 1400 km ride to Nova Scotia
Now that the little road trip is over, it's time to get back to the chassis modifications. The 3" x 3" x 1/8" HSS is cut and fitted along the rocker and up to the upper rear frame rail. There will be gussets fitted at the corner and a 1/8" thick mounting plate at the intersection of the new tubing and the frame rail. There will also be a bracket to the lower frame rail eventually.
Hopefully when we do the passenger side, I can work on my right side tan.
With this fitted temporarily, we'll start work on the A pillar connection next.
When its done, it should look very much like the 3D image posted above.
edit: remove photo of family member
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 02-23-2015).]
As I stated earlier, following the 3" chassis stretch I completed a 3" stretch of the engine cradle. I cut the cradle just forward of the front cross member and the cut was made vertical with the cradle level on the table. Each 3" extension was fabricated from two pieces of 1/8" plate that were bent so that they interlock in the same manner as the actual cradle construction. With the extensions inserted in the 3" gap in the cradle, the cradle bushings moved forward without raising or lowering the center of the bushings. I also decided to add fish plates ( doubler plates) on the top and outside surface of each cradle extension, just for added strength.
3D Model showing proposed extensions with doubler plates
We double checked all measurements while on the jig before final welding.
The extensions were given a coat of primer for now as I suspect there will be more cradle modifications later once I finalize the engine / transmission choice.
Great looking work! In fact, I'd like to see more of it... as in more pictures and bigger pictures! Are you using PIP? If so, you can upload photos up to 1000 pixels wide, by any height, as long as they don't exceed 300K. Give us more!
Thanks Blooz for the vote of confidence. I am using PIP and I have alot more pictures but I am having a hard time getting the maximum picture dimensions allowable without going over on the max file size. And when I turn down the resolution to reduce the file size, then the pictures don't look so good. Is there a secret to getting the maximum quality on the posts? I'm using photoshop and I know I should probably crop more. I figure by page 5 or 6 I'll have it down pat.
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 10-20-2012).]
One recommendation while you are cutting/welding on the cradle... Weld in solid bushing sleeves. In the front you can use some 1/2" ID tube and large washers and in the rear you just need to weld in some spacers.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-20-2012).]
Thanks Blooz for the vote of confidence. I am using PIP and I have alot more pictures but I am having a hard time getting the maximum picture dimensions allowable without going over on the max file size. And when I turn down the resolution to reduce the file size, then the pictures don't look so good. Is there a secret to getting the maximum quality on the posts? I'm using photoshop and I know I should probably crop more. I figure by page 5 or 6 I'll have it down pat.
I use ACDSee to shrink and resize my files, but should be similar on PS. When saving images, you should be able to change the compression rate (for jpeg). I usually change it to about 65%. Plenty of resolution for forum and the files are usually less than 100k.
Thanks Fieroguru. I'll do up a drawing and see what I can scrounge up for material at work. I never really considered solid bushings on this project. I know earlier I mentioned still being undecided about engine/ trans set up but reading and rereading your thread sure makes the decision easier. Great documentation for us " less experienced" builders.
I'll keep trying with your suggested file compression RCR. I think my biggest problem is I have 3 different cameras on the go ( mine, son, daughter) and they all have different aspect ratios I think. I should really just settle on one camera and stick with it.
I am glad Bloozberry convinced you to grab two extended screens. You will not be sorry to do the extra work for the much better end look. I wanted one or two of those myself but I just wasn't willing to take the chance of having more windscreens being broken again in shipping....
That reinforcing is looking really good as well, keep up the great work.
I am glad I went ahead with the purchase as well Don. I know they will certainly add that special look to our 355's. The windshields looked to be very good quality and luckily they all made it safely back to NS. To be honest, I doubt they would have in the hands of a random shipper. Thanks again for the heads up on the purchase. I opted not to get the extended tray. We'll mock up a welded in tray .........eventually.
Originally posted by Yarmouth Fiero: I never really considered solid bushings on this project. I know earlier I mentioned still being undecided about engine/ trans set up but reading and rereading your thread sure makes the decision easier.
I'd just like to suggest that before you finalize the location for the solid bushings, that you should consider whether or not you will want to raise the cradle to reduce the wheel to fender gap issue on the fiberglass kit you are considering.
I agree Blooz. As we have discussed, I need to match my 85 chassis to your final chassis geometry as close as possible so that the fit of the 355 body is suitable. I still have a ton of work on the chassis reinforcements to keep me busy for a while yet so I'll hold off on finallizing the suspension geometry for now.
Today we worked on the drivers side chassis reinforcement and got all the pieces fabricated and tacked together. It sure would be nice to have the car about 3 feet higher off the floor when working on the chassis. I'll add a car hoist to my Christmas wish list. I'm sure I'm not the first.
The 3" x 3" x 1/8" HSS fit very well tucked in where the original chassis structure once existed.
At the front end I used 1.5" x 3" x 1/8" HSS and made relief cuts to allow the tubing to follow the shape of the front side of the A pillar. I'll cap off the top end with a piece of plate during final welding.
At the back I used the 3" x 3" x 1/8" HSS and tapered the top end down to match the width of the upper frame rail. I added a doubler plate between the end of the tubing and the frame rail to make a better welded connection and help transfer the load to the frame rail. I also added a gusset at the lower end of the tubing. I'll add a second gusset to the inside surface once I take it all off the chassis for welding.
It all looks pretty robust at this point. The key will be to get a good welded connection between the chassis and the tube frame.
I have a gusset for the front end but I suspect it may interfere with the door so I'll leave it off until the body is being fitted.
The obvious question with this reinforcement is regarding the location of the fuel fill. I measured the loaction on Blooz's 355 body and found it to be 19" aft of the door frame. I think this is pretty close to the fiero fuel fill location.
I mocked up the loaction using this distance and my fiero fuel fill pipe. It appears that the fill / vent pipes will clear the new frame reinforcement....barely.
I also took the time to do a little inspirational decorating in the garage. The boys have decided our project car will be gloss black with gloss black wheels with a machined lip. They feel it looks " Sinister".
Next step is to repeat this exercise for the passanger side and then have everything welded prior to final fitting to the chassis. Luckily, it can be removed and fitted in one piece.
Sage, with regard to side to side stiffening, yes, I am planning on connecting the new vertical frame to the rear lower frame rail. Also, I will be installing a triangulated truss of 1" x 1 1/2" x 1/8" HSS against the back of the firewall to connect all 4 frame rails together to add transverse support to the chassis. In the front of the car, I will incorporate transverse stiffening in the extended windshield lower support. These additions will certainly increase the chassis stiffness above what the current roof structure is providing.
With regard to the door test fit 85LAMB, the drivers side door is sitting just out of view of the pictures. By the end of the day, the boys were itching to head out with friends to cruise so I didn't get a chance to test fit it, perhaps today though. I forget what its like to be young and have a life.
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 10-28-2012).]
Exellent! Kind of what came to mind for me, but much better design!
Not sure how "heavy" the stock would have to be, seems like it just needs to tie everything together, that the brunt of work will be taken on by your rocker rails. Will sure help with frame twist! You shouldn't have any after that's complete. Negligable at any rate.
Glad to hear you don't have the boys chained in place, after all, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy".
Sage, I agree that perhaps the 1" x 1 1/2" may be a little over kill. It happen to be what I had in stock at work at the time but I may look for some 3/4" x 1" instead. When the firewall truss is complete I plan to cover it with insulation and a heat shield. I have a supplier that makes our exhaust blankets and they do a silver silicone finish that would look very nice on the firewall.
Something that I would consider doing once you get to the rear firewall bracing, is to tack the firewall sheet metal to the braces as well. From experience with my SBC kit, I've found that long distance drives can be fatiguing due to a low frequency droning or booming sound which I believe is transmitted into the cabin by the rear firewall resonating with the V8 frequencies. Changing the stiffness of the firewall back there by tacking it to the braces would certainly change the sound transmission characteristics and may very well dampen the boominess I experience in my car. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Blooz. I agree that the firewall is certainly built like a drum. There will be an opportunity to plug well the firewall to various locations on the truss stiffener once its in place. That will also add a little more strength to the whole assembly I hope.
Well I finally got the drivers side door back on to check the clearance with the new chassis frame. Its suprising how heavy those doors are....... well that is what my 15 year old son claims.
There is almost 3" of clearance between the fwd edge of the door and the aft side of the frame with the door closed.
As the door opens, it moves forward slightly and inward as well.
The door body panel roughly follows the edge of the door structure and while it does add thickness, causing the door to swing forward and inward a bit more, it appears that the finished door should clear additional frame structure with room to spare. I may even be able to fit a modified gusset for added strength.
As the curved frame on the fwd side of the A pillar lies snug in the recess of the wheel well, there should not be any issues with tire clearance on the finished car.
Photos of 355 body compliments of Blooz.
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 10-30-2012).]
Today the boys and I spent the day with Blooz in his magical workshop. There are so many cool projects and items to ask questions about that it's hard to stay on task at times. Btw.... I'm as guilty of this as the boys.
The activity today was to make a template of the new extended glass for our 355 projects. We have 4 new windshields still in the crate so we opened it up and carefully removed one for use as a guide for our template. I could hear Blooz whispering " this one is yours".... over and over. You would think we were handling human organs for transplant the way we gingerly extracted the glass from the crate and moved it to the waiting bench. ( listen for the choir of angels)
Using 1/8" corregated plastic, we traced the glass outline on two separate sheets of plastic which would then be glued together to provide a stiffer template. The templates were cut out and trimmed to the desired shape.
Once the two sheets were cut to the desired shape and glued together with a hot glue gun, they were pressed flat against the glass to give the correct shape and then a batten was cut from the same material and glued on edge with the hot glue. It created a suprisingly stiff template of the windshield.
Once the templates were made, we again gingerly returned the windshield to its crate for safe keeping. There are no pictures of this because all 4 of us were holding the glass.
I did snap a picture of the label on the windshield before we were done. The quality appears to be very high and I think they will make an awesome addition to our 355 projects.
With the template home, we were quick to try in on our chassis. I am very happy with the fit and the template will make it much easier to build a suitable lower glass support without handling the actual glass any more than necessary.
Blooz also scored me some awesome parts for our SBC installation, including a flywheel, adapter plate, waterpump, starter and various mounts and brackets. Thanks again for your help Blooz.
edit: remove photos of family members
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 02-23-2015).]
These 6 windshields travelled from Pennsylvania, down to Maryland (where one of two getting off-loaded got broken), then the remaining four travelled up the Eastern Seaboard to Maine, across the border to New Brunswick, then finally on a 3 hour ferry trip to Nova Scotia... 1000 miles total with nary a nick or chip. After hearing of ALLTRBO having three extended windshields being broken in transit, I think I'd rather give a kidney than have to go through that again. But I could just see it (now that they're nicely nestled in the shop)... one of us tripping on an extension cord while moving one ten feet. That's why I kept whispering "yours, yours, yours".
I'm glad we (well, more like boys and you) went through that process of making the plastic templates though. That was a great idea. Much easier to work with than the actual glass
I agree Blooz, it was certainly a long, uneventful journey getting them back to NS. And to then have an "incident" the last few feet would certainly be heartbreaking.
One thing I forgot to do was measure the width of the bottom frit as it does indeed look wide. Although looking at the template from inside the car, the extended glass does infact " extend" well forward over the dash so we should be good. I guess we can always get an additional seat cushion upholstered with our interiors to boost us up a little in the drivers seat.
When I was 16, my dad had to hose clamp a wooden block on the clutch pedal of this 77 Dodge Ram Club Cab because I couldn't reach to shift the 3 on the tree. We always have that option if we find ourselves boosted too high.
Oops....sorry. In the shipbuilding world, we install frameless glass that has a baked ceramic black boarder that protects the adhesive from UV damage. We call this boarder a frit or ceramic frit. I assume our windshields have an adhesive or painted boarder that does the same job. Is there an automotive term for this boarder?
Edit: An apple fritter is much more delicious yet can also coat the inside of your windshield if you aren't careful pulling out of the Tim's drive through.
[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 11-05-2012).]
Hey, thanks for stopping by my build thread. Yours is looking sweet too. I will definitely be following the progress, and sharing it with my boys to show them what REAL "helping" looks like.
Also, the vertical frame will line in under the upper frame rail which buys me a few more inches under the body work for the fuel fill.
ha-ha-ha
