Originally posted by 4thfiero: You think ill spend the amount of a corvette ZR1 to install the c6 drivetrain?
If i were to leave it in the rear, i would go transverse with some kinda super awesome tranny....like a hollinger. Those are expensive, but they wont break. With the LS9 of course.
I see your point dobey about Fiero's only being good for cutting up...which is why i wanted to know how much cutting i would have to do to fit a front engine in. I dont want that rep either....but i also like having a unique car...a ls9 up front would be awesome...and POSSIBLY better balanced depending on the install i guess.
Does anyone know what "build" Fiero X uses...his Fiero is FAST
You might spend $80K to get a ZR1 drivetrain working in a Fiero, And even if you only spent $60K, it would still be nowhere near as capable as an actual ZR1, which has not only the drivetrain, but tires, suspension, and aerodynamics engineering to be able to take it to 200+ MPH reliably.
I don't know which FieroX you are talking about. There is "FieroX" who was (still is maybe?) a member of this forum, who built a very quick 3800 (yes, quick, not fast). Then there is this recent Fiero that has appeared on YouTube labelled "Fiero X Project." It is a turbocharged LS4. I'm pretty sure it's the cartuning.ca LS4 turbo kit, the same as dratts has on his Murci replica.
Heck, a bone stock Fiero is pretty unique these days. How many are left? How many are in your area?
"At least then it wouldn't perpetuate the bad reputation Fieros have as being only good for cutting up" I thought that and catchiing fire were the only reputation the Fiero has!
I would not be sure that the C-5 & C-6 drivetrain would allow the engine to fit under the front hood of the Fiero- I suppose you could add a scoop or bulge to clear, tho....
Im not sure either...it was a white Fiero, i think maybe the 3800 one....i kept seeing it kick the crap out of other cars at the drag races. It just took off like a bullet.
Well im reading now that corvette wants to go mid- engine for better traction, So maybe i should just keep it mid-engine...its a heavier engine than my ecotec by a couple hundred pounds, but the power increase should offset that...i just hope it doesnt kill me front to rear weight distribution, make it like 40/60 or worse.
Originally posted by cvxjet: I would not be sure that the C-5 & C-6 drivetrain would allow the engine to fit under the front hood of the Fiero- I suppose you could add a scoop or bulge to clear, tho....
Definitely won't with the stock drivetrain, as the Corvette has a longer wheelbase. That's why I said a custom torque tube would be needed, to reduce the wheelbase, but then you still have all the other fab work to get it mounted, let alone the cost of a custom torque tube by itself.
Originally posted by 4thfiero: Oh wow...too much even for me...80k huh. Yeah.
Im not sure either...it was a white Fiero, i think maybe the 3800 one....i kept seeing it kick the crap out of other cars at the drag races. It just took off like a bullet.
Well im reading now that corvette wants to go mid- engine for better traction, So maybe i should just keep it mid-engine...its a heavier engine than my ecotec by a couple hundred pounds, but the power increase should offset that...i just hope it doesnt kill me front to rear weight distribution, make it like 40/60 or worse.
So don't use an LS9 then. There are multiple turbocharged 3800s on this forum making more power than a stock LS9 does anyway. If you want to make huge power with an LS9, stock isn't going to cut it anyway, especially with the blower.
I don't know what your Ecotec weighs, including all the extra turbo bits, but I'm willing to bet it's not that different from what an LS9 weighs (which, really isn't all that much, despite the blower). My goal with my LS4 is to have it weigh less than the stock V6.
If this is the "Fiero X" you were talking about, it's the turbocharged LS4:
Perhaps someone could explain to the OP why a Fiero spaceframe can't be laid over the Typhoon/Syclone chassis.
Partly the same reason you can't do it with a Vette. The S-truck wheelbase is longer than the Fiero. Plus it's a body-on-frame, so would require significant changes to mate the two together.
If you really do want to do it, you'll basically have a slightly shorter version of this:
Apparently people around here can chop a Fiero but don't know what channeling one is.
I have frame rails running down the sides of my Fiero and it doesn't look like a mudder.
You asked about dropping a Fiero on an S-truck frame. You get a truck with a Fiero on top with that. They aren't the same wheelbase or anything. There's a big difference between a chromoly tube chassis for a drag car, and a box truck frame, too. It's going to take a lot more than channeling the Fiero chassis, to make something that looks decent, on top of an S-truck.
If you really want to chop up a Fiero and put a turbo 4.3 up front, it'd be better to use the front from a C4 than an S-truck, I would think.
Unless one wants to build a purpose-built drag Fiero, I don't really see the point of spending all the money and time to make it a front engined car. Just buy a Corvette at that point. It'll be cheaper, and just be a better car.
The Syclone/Typhoon drivetrain isn't all that great anyway. If you really want a turbo 4.3 though, why not just take one and put it in the back, with the TH425/435 pumpkin? It'll keep the Fiero mid-engined, shouldn't require cutting into the passenger bay, and you have pretty much the same drivetrain as the S-truck. Plus it won't be another Fiero chopped all to hell and never finished.
But the Typhoon/Syclone chassis has everything the OP favors. Power and AWD in one package. And I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to take 10" out of the side rails which is about all the difference is in wheelbase between the two.
LS9 blower won't fit LS7 heads. The LS7 heads are unique. You need an aftermarket blower made specifically for the LS7 heads.
This is how I put mine on. The blower on the LS9 is just an edelbrock E-force blower. They make one specifically for the LS7 if you don't want to use adapters. Only reason I used them was to use the L92 truck intake instead of paying for the FAST intake. Less than 5hp difference and $1k cheaper. Did that when I went turbo.
I sent this to 4th. It'll apply here as well................
"No more photos and I can't get anymore at the present time but there may be a slim chance this weekend.
It is a full chrome moly tube chassis. The original space frame was cut off below the windshield and back glass. The tube chassis runs along the sides where the coolant tubes normally run, this allows the car to sit at factory height. There was some minor trimming to what would be the firewall on a normal car so that the engine could sit back a tad. The distributor is under the base of the windshield. The Turbo 350 tranny fits in the original tunnel that use to house the fuel tank. There is a fuel cell in the back where the engine use to be. Interior basically appears stock right down to the power windows."
I will add.........
It has a 468 BBC and it is nose heavy. I never weighed it so I don't know what the bias or the total is but I know it's nose heavy. The rear is a Ford 9" hung by a 4 link and coil overs. The front is currently tubular A arm with coil overs but will be getting struts when it gets its new engine.
Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, the space frame was cut off in front and behind the firewalls? Meaning the floor pan and center gas tank tunnel are original? If so I'm shocked you got the transmission to fit in that well.
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Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:
Perhaps someone could explain to the OP why a Fiero spaceframe can't be laid over the Typhoon/Syclone chassis.
I think the most obvious reason is you would have to completely rebuild the floor of the fiero to fit around the middle transfer case and front driveshaft or else mount the fiero on top of the frame like the mudder mentioned above. You could channel and get the frame in the car, but you still have to get all the guts of the driveline in there too.
[This message has been edited by mr_corean (edited 02-20-2016).]
Here is an example of just how wide the transfer case is. This guy has the transfer case in the back instead of attached to the rear of the transmission, but that is a custom setup. The main reason for showing the pictures is to let you see exactly how far apart the driveshafts are so you can see how much cutting would be required to get that type of an AWD setup in a Fiero. That driveshaft on the driver's side would be in the driver's side foot well. You can't even offset the two because the main driveshaft still goes straight back from the engine so you would need to offset the entire engine. I still stand by the FWD type layout from a Vibe or minivan or the 6000 ste awd such as below. Then just replace the motor with whatever you want.
But the Typhoon/Syclone chassis has everything the OP favors. Power and AWD in one package. And I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to take 10" out of the side rails which is about all the difference is in wheelbase between the two.
The turbo 4.3 is 280 HP. I don't think it has the power the OP wants, when he's talking about the LS9 that makes 640 HP bone stock, and manual transmissions. Yes, it's AWD, but so are many other cars. Frankly, a Fiero needs to be stretched and widened, to make sense for hosting a traditionally powered AWD setup. Really, the most practical option to get AWD in a stock sized Fiero, would be to go hybrid.
A Syclone with an LS9/Tremec swap and staying AWD would certainly be fun though.
Originally posted by mr_corean: Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, the space frame was cut off in front and behind the firewalls? Meaning the floor pan and center gas tank tunnel are original? If so I'm shocked you got the transmission to fit in that well.
Yes
The center of the space frame is still intact. That is what's holding all the glass and body panels. Even the stock dash panel and center console is uncut except where the down tubes for the roll cage go through.
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Originally posted by mr_corean: Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, the space frame was cut off in front and behind the firewalls? Meaning the floor pan and center gas tank tunnel are original? If so I'm shocked you got the transmission to fit in that well.
I think the most obvious reason is you would have to completely rebuild the floor of the fiero to fit around the middle transfer case and front driveshaft or else mount the fiero on top of the frame like the mudder mentioned above. You could channel and get the frame in the car, but you still have to get all the guts of the driveline in there too.
Again, people on here chop tops, stretch cradles, modify cradles and stretch space frames. Modifying a floor pan pales in comparison.
I like the simplicity and potential for the least amount of weight increase, but most of the GM FWD based AWD setups were only designed for winter driving, not high power/dry pavement applications, so I doubt they will hold up to much abuse unlike the RWD stuff that was designed around true off-roading and other forms of abuse.
I would love to take a setup similar to this (preferably the F40 based AWD from the Saab) and flip it around to keep the engine in the back of a Fiero with a 4 cyl or small V6 and use it for my winter commuter (90 miles round trip) vs. my 13 mpg full size truck.
I like the simplicity and potential for the least amount of weight increase, but most of the GM FWD based AWD setups were only designed for winter driving, not high power/dry pavement applications, so I doubt they will hold up to much abuse unlike the RWD stuff that was designed around true off-roading and other forms of abuse.
I would love to take a setup similar to this (preferably the F40 based AWD from the Saab) and flip it around to keep the engine in the back of a Fiero with a 4 cyl or small V6 and use it for my winter commuter (90 miles round trip) vs. my 13 mpg full size truck.
I recall my local Pontiac dealer telling me that the rear end setup in my 1990 6000 STE AWD was basically an S-10 front end flipped around and mounted in the back.
I just remember finding out that the rear air struts were $497.00 each and dealer only and the driveshaft was not serviceable. A sold it a few weeks after finding that out.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-20-2016).]
What kind of hybrid device would one use for an AWD setup while maintaining the mid-engine layout? is there a specific awd transfer case u had in mind dobey?
Originally posted by 4thfiero: What kind of hybrid device would one use for an AWD setup while maintaining the mid-engine layout? is there a specific awd transfer case u had in mind dobey?
No. It wouldn't use a transfer case. It would use electric only for the front. Something like how the McLaren P1, Porsche 918, and new NSX are.
Getting electric motors is easy. There are plenty available, but the whole drivetrain from the NSX with controllers will make the swap a lot easier.
The hard part will be the controller logic, if not swapping in a hybrid drivetrain. A full electric conversion would be fun too. Tesla P85D setup with a battery pack designed for the Fiero would be really fun.
FWIW, I expect the C8 will also be a hybrid AWD setup being mid-engined, and meant to be a hypercar.
Getting electric motors is easy. There are plenty available, but the whole drivetrain from the NSX with controllers will make the swap a lot easier.
The hard part will be the controller logic, if not swapping in a hybrid drivetrain. A full electric conversion would be fun too. Tesla P85D setup with a battery pack designed for the Fiero would be really fun.
FWIW, I expect the C8 will also be a hybrid AWD setup being mid-engined, and meant to be a hypercar.
So i can get the electric motor from an nsx or C8 (if they have one) just the front motor and cntroller? and i should be able to hook it up to the Fiero with whatever engine i want?
Originally posted by 4thfiero: So i can get the electric motor from an nsx or C8 (if they have one) just the front motor and cntroller? and i should be able to hook it up to the Fiero with whatever engine i want?
I don't know what the complexity of the wiring or controller is. To use the OE stuff, you may need the entire hybrid drivetrain. The NSX has three electric motors. Two up front, and one in the rear in normal hybrid configuration (presumably a motor between the engine and transmission).
If you don't want to swap the entire drivetrain in, you'll likely need some aftermarket controller, which integrates with the normal engine controls, to have the electric motor do the right thing at the right time. You'll probably need wheel speed sensors and such.
Do you have any idea how that hybrid system works? How much HP i get per wheel? and do all 4 wheels turn all the time? or just on accel and turning??
I don't know the logic of the controller, no. And I remembered incorrectly earlier. The P1 is RWD. The Porsche 918 has two electric motors, one in front that only drives the front wheels, and one in rear in-line with the transmission, which can drive the rear wheels, and provides regeneration of electricity.
I don't know what the power output of the individual motors are on the NSX, or when the front motors are engaged or not.
There is the one guy who built a Fiero hybrid to go racing- Can't remember his name, but it was relatively simple- Engine drives the back wheels(As normal) and electric motor drives the front wheels- only on high throttle usage.......It's a whole 'nother kettle'O'fish to do the front wheels individually, and to have adaptive control for improved handling.....I don't think you need a motor from a 918/NSX/$$$$$$$$- I think you can use a number of "Off the shelf" motors- even one from a Volt/Prius may be able to work- You're not looking to put 3-600 hp at the front wheels- probably 1-200 would make a big difference.
The layout of a modern high performance car has only got a little to do with how they perform . You can pick any layout you want , from front engine rear drive all the way to rear engine rear wheel drive and all the varients in between and you can find in every class a car that performs way better than its weight balance and layout tells you it should .They all feature advanced electronics that control things like torque vectoring differentials , magnetoheterolgical controlled shocks , torque vectoring electric drive motors , ABS brakes , 3 to 5 settings of a stability controling computer that orchestrates it all . The electronics make these cars so good that any one can drive one on a track and look like a pro . Stuff like this will trickle down to the aftermarket eventually , but for now adapting parts from supercars in to a fiero is not really feasible unless you want to spend really serious bucks .If you would have to pay someone to do it , my guess would be 50 - 100 grand .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-22-2016).]
The guy who built the Hybrid $2009 challenge Fiero goes by the handle here of Nashco....You can look up a couple of threads and a Grassroots motorsports mag article on the car/project....It used an Electric S10 motor up front.....Although he was limited to $2009, doing it with some real money might make for a pretty interesting vehicle- Say an LS4 in the rear and electric up front....
And although I generally agree with wftb on the layout thing- I really like the fact that the Corvette @ $100,000 and FR is handing all the fancy Ferraris, Lambos and even the GT-R their butts on tracks.....When you get down to the last couple of hundredths, mid-engine is the best set-up....But you really have to be ALL the way out there for it to really pay off- Setting the car up properly is really the most important factor- And you have to do it without bias....Get rid of pre-conceived notions and evaluate any and all things from a neutral postion- That ain't easy, tho!
Originally posted by cvxjet: The guy who built the Hybrid $2009 challenge Fiero goes by the handle here of Nashco....You can look up a couple of threads and a Grassroots motorsports mag article on the car/project....It used an Electric S10 motor up front.....Although he was limited to $2009, doing it with some real money might make for a pretty interesting vehicle- Say an LS4 in the rear and electric up front....
That car is a bit of an odd setup. Yes, it's technically a hybrid, because it has both an electric motor up front, and the stock engine in the rear, but they are independently operable, and manually switched, IIRC. It's an interesting build, especially for only $2009, but it is far from what 4thFiero is asking about in this thread.
Oh yeah! i remember that guy with the electric s10 motor. I always thought it was a FULL electric setup kinda thing...i didnt know he was doing what i kinda wanna do. Interesting.
I agree the Vette is an amazing car, i dont know about it beating the pants off those cars at the track though? Especially the GTR...(GTR is a beast that defy's physics lol) I remember the show 'Head to Head' put the vette zr1 against the GTR, and thjey discovered that even though the vette might be faster in the figure 8 track? It was slower at (i think button willow or whatever race track they used) bcc of the aero dynamics of the rear spoiler. The GTR was always faster and had better lap times. I dont know about the other cars. But all in all...vette is amazing.
I guess the fact that our little mid engine Fiero's are transverse kinda throws me off, i admit that. I know the NSX of the past was an amazing car. I just keep seeing these "super" cars with longitudinal engines and trannys, hear that longitudinal engines and tranny's are "better" that they can hold more power...better at putting power down, more aftermarket support vs transverse...things like that. But then u have cars like the EVO thats transverse, but its front engine and AWD...
I love my Fiero and honestly have no idea what i would replace it with if ever someone crashed into me and destroyed it. Maybe the Scion FR-S, if i could afford one a GTR...but i REALLY liked the idea of building a Fiero that could RUN WITH those kinda cars, via an engine, tranny and suspension swap. I think thats really cool. If i buy a vette or GTR or FR-S....im apart of THAT world now.
I think Steven Snyder said it best in his interview when he said he likes going to the track with a unique car, u show up in a vette and guys are like "Oh yeah i got that in my vette too" but with modded Fiero's they are like "...what the balls did u do??..." lol.
Anyways, what do you guyus think of the mid engine transverse layout and transverse transmissions vs longitudinal? I really do wanna get rid of preconceived notions, im a truth seeker. I just wanna bring out the Fiero's TRUE potential without destroying it, (only good for hacking up and all that)
What a longitudinal engine setup gives you is more room to accommodate a better suspension setup .With a transverse setup you are very limited with the length of control arms and packaging concerns usually dictate a strut based suspension .Strut suspensions have limited camber gain compared to double wishbone SLA suspensions .If you look at most supercars , you will not find struts .The exception to the rule is the 911 , with struts at all 4 corners . It is an exceptionally good handler , but no one else bothers with that type of setup except Porsche .I have to look it up , but I am pretty sure the ZR-1 vette spanked everyone at the last Car&Driver lightning lap competition .
Originally posted by 4thfiero: Anyways, what do you guyus think of the mid engine transverse layout and transverse transmissions vs longitudinal? I really do wanna get rid of preconceived notions, im a truth seeker. I just wanna bring out the Fiero's TRUE potential without destroying it, (only good for hacking up and all that)
I think it's a pointless argument to have.
The truth is, if you have the money, time, skills, etc… then almost any car can be modified to meet a set of goals. As far as the Fiero goes, the wheelbase is a far bigger limit to performance than whether you use a transverse or longitudinal setup. Even still, depending on what the actual goals for a build are, you might not hit those limits either.
My goals performance wise are to make my Fiero a time attack car for the track. So running laps as fast as i can.
I wanna bring out the full speed/handling/braking potential of a Fiero...so im trying to figure out the best engine/tranny combo...
Im figuring a built ecotec motor (i think i can get 4-500 hp off 91 octane according to some ecotec guys. With either an F23,35 or 40 tranny (or even a hollinger custom tranny) Or an LS9 engine with f40 or hollinger tranny, using JRZ custom suspension, steven snyders wheel and tires size suggestions (18's with wide wheels and tires bcc im adding fender flares), brembo brakes and as much weight reduction as i can without making the car a shell. (Replacing windows and sunroof with lexan or something...ill be getting lighter decklid and hood made out of carbon fiber and getting adjustable control arms from WCF to solve that camber issue u mentioned. Things like that to help build the full potential of a Pontiac Fiero on the track without hacking the snot out of it.
Then possibly adding that elec motor for awd up front.
Im also not opposed to installing an automatic sequential duel clutch tranny like in a gtr to the Fiero....but i dont think they make a transverse tranny like that we can put in the Fiero
[This message has been edited by 4thfiero (edited 02-23-2016).]
If you want your car to handle , you already have the right motor .You should be able to get 400 hp reliably out of the setup you have provided you can up the boost without detonation .It has been done before .The ecotec turbo motor is lighter than an LS motor even without the turbo so for a track day car stick with the motor you have .Adding the adjustable upper A arms to the front of your car will help but in the rear as long as you stay strut based you will hit a wall as to how good you can make the car be .You have an 88 so you could do something similar to Bloozeberry's setup with an upper arm and a pushrod operated shock .Look up his thread in the construction zone .Another thread you can look up is DonP 's lemons/chumpcar build thread .His race team did all kinds of stuff to an 88 to make it handle better .If you want to do this , you need to do a lot of research and come up with a detailed plan .If you can't do it yourself , you will need to be very specific with the people you are dealing with or you will be sorely disappointed with the results .
If you want your car to handle , you already have the right motor .You should be able to get 400 hp reliably out of the setup you have provided you can up the boost without detonation .It has been done before .The ecotec turbo motor is lighter than an LS motor even without the turbo so for a track day car stick with the motor you have .Adding the adjustable upper A arms to the front of your car will help but in the rear as long as you stay strut based you will hit a wall as to how good you can make the car be .You have an 88 so you could do something similar to Bloozeberry's setup with an upper arm and a pushrod operated shock .Look up his thread in the construction zone .Another thread you can look up is DonP 's lemons/chumpcar build thread .His race team did all kinds of stuff to an 88 to make it handle better .If you want to do this , you need to do a lot of research and come up with a detailed plan .If you can't do it yourself , you will need to be very specific with the people you are dealing with or you will be sorely disappointed with the results .
Sweet! that helps, i'll take a look and read up on what they did! Thanks man.
Originally posted by 4thfiero: Im also not opposed to installing an automatic sequential duel clutch tranny like in a gtr to the Fiero....but i dont think they make a transverse tranny like that we can put in the Fiero
There are several transverse DCTs in the wild. Fiat has a few. GM doesn't sell any cars with one though. If you want a paddle-controlled manual gearbox, then a DCT would be the way to go.
However, really, it depends on what class and track you're going to spend your time in. We can sit here and talk about all the far out possibilities for max peak HP, or what suspension or transmission would be best, but none of that really matters. You can only push a 2500 lb block of steel around a corner so fast before you're no longer on the track.
Really, what you need to do, if you want to build a Fiero to do some time attack event, is to just go do the time attack event and see where your car is in its class already. Are you overheating the brakes? Are you lacking power in a certain gear or RPM range? Is the car breaking traction too often? Steering not right?
I doubt you're talking about NASCAR, so you're going to need to do more than turn left. Every track is different, so if you plan to go to multiple tracks, you'll want to get the feel for them, and understand what changes need to be made at each track too.
For "more power" you may very well find that it would be better to have VVT than more boost, too. A broader powerband and the right gearing will almost always be better than getting a few more peak HP by cranking the boost up another 5 PSI.
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