Yikes! I grew up in Rustville, PA... not far from Pilorust, OH. I am thinking that you will save a lot of work by looking for a car from outside the rust belt irresepctive of whether you get an 88 or otherwise.
Yeah, I figured that out on my own when I looked at those ads. I'd have to fly out & drive it home.
Eh.. contrary to popular belief parts dont fail that often, thus not justifying the argument that some 88 parts being not as easy to find is such a big deal. But also yes with performance upgrades you can make a pre 88 handle great. I think the difference in price for an 88 is maybe 1k on average. I guess you could add up the upgrades you plan to do with a pre 88 and see how that plays out. Alot of selling price seems to be all about mileage on the odometer which cant always be trusted.
I beg to differ. If you look at Fiero Price Guidelines, the difference in value between 88 and 87 is nearly double in price, not just $1K. There's a big difference in price. But yet after reading all pros & cons from other fiero owners, I still think 88 is a better buy. I hope it will ring true upon my experience. We'll see.
Eh.. contrary to popular belief parts dont fail that often, thus not justifying the argument that some 88 parts being not as easy to find is such a big deal. But also yes with performance upgrades you can make a pre 88 handle great. I think the difference in price for an 88 is maybe 1k on average. I guess you could add up the upgrades you plan to do with a pre 88 and see how that plays out. Alot of selling price seems to be all about mileage on the odometer which cant always be trusted.
Can't trust the mileage on the odometer? It's against federal law to modify mileage. Plus check on the history of the car & see if the mileage is accurate.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 06-22-2015).]
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: I'm kinda surprised that people don't want T-roof parts. Heck, I'd buy them if I come across an opportunity. I think it's awesome having t-roof. If you know anyone that want to sell it, let me know.
You've obviously never owned a T-top car.
There are two types of T-top car owners; those that hate them, and those that haven't owned the car long enough to have all the problems that T-top cars have.
That's a bit misleading. They OEM 88 wheel bearings aren't a "weak point" as in prone to failure. You are correct that finding used ones is difficult and reproductions are not as durable. For a street car, the repros are fine. People who AutoX have had problems with the reproductions, but I'm unaware of any failures in street applications. Still, it is worth noting since that's an 88-specific part that has no readily available OEM level replacement. With 180,000 miles on my Formula, I have replaced one wheel bearing with a used OEM one from a junk yard and the other one is still original.
Very good info, Thanks Formula88! Indeed, I intend to use it as street car. So, that's good to know that repros will be acceptable.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 06-22-2015).]
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Can't trust the mileage on the odometer? It's a federal law to modify the mileage. Plus check on the history of the car & see if the mileage is accurate.
Checking history requires that a) history was reported and b) the history is accurate and true. Both of these can be very rare things to see on a CarFax or similar report.
There are two types of T-top car owners; those that hate them, and those that haven't owned the car long enough to have all the problems that T-top cars have.
Yeah, you're right. I've never owned a T-top car, but I still think it's cool. If someone could figure out to solve those bugs, it can be fun to drive with open roof. Fiero is suppose to be something different from your daily vehicles. Why do those hate t-roof? B/c of leaks? Can it be fixed? Can you explain more? Thanks for sharing your opinion. Bring it on! ;-)
Checking history requires that a) history was reported and b) the history is accurate and true. Both of these can be very rare things to see on a CarFax or similar report.
Then, what do you suggest? Avoid Fieros with lower than normal miles? If you find out it has been tampered with, then you can always sue them, right?
Thats the kind of open ended part of the OPs post that we dont know, the objective with the car. Since it was a modified GT that got his attention, it could be that heavy mods are expected, in that case.. start with cheap.
Actually, it wasn't heavy modified. A new paint job that cover that Fiero tradition black line along with nice set of wheels made all the difference. He had the spoiler removed & tinted the rear side windows. It was a cool looking Fiero that got me hooked.
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Then, what do you suggest? Avoid Fieros with lower than normal miles? If you find out it has been tampered with, then you can always sue them, right?
No. Buy what you want. 99% of the time, it won't be the case that it's an issue. Anyone not trying to get a ridiculous amount of money for the car won't have bothered to do it, and judging from the thread, you're not looking to spend that much on a Fiero, or you would have bought one already. Anything in your price range is unlikely to have such tampering done to it. And most 88s with extremely low miles are because someone bought one and kept it in storage hoping for the value to pick up, since it was the last year for the car.
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Yeah, you're right. I've never owned a T-top car, but I still think it's cool. If someone could figure out to solve those bugs, it can be fun to drive with open roof. Fiero is suppose to be something different from your daily vehicles. Why do those hate t-roof? B/c of leaks? Can it be fixed? Can you explain more? Thanks for sharing your opinion. Bring it on! ;-)
Leaks, squeaks, and wind noise. T-top cars tend to have more body/chassis flex, which results in squeakiness and wind noise with the tops in, and over time facilitates leaking of water. Then the water can cause the t-top frame components around the seals to rust, which only exacerbates the issue.
A 2002 Firebird with T-tops might not be as bad, and the C6/C7 Vettes are much better with the targa roof, but I'd avoid 80s cars with T-tops like the plague.
No. Buy what you want. 99% of the time, it won't be the case that it's an issue. Anyone not trying to get a ridiculous amount of money for the car won't have bothered to do it, and judging from the thread, you're not looking to spend that much on a Fiero, or you would have bought one already. Anything in your price range is unlikely to have such tampering done to it. And most 88s with extremely low miles are because someone bought one and kept it in storage hoping for the value to pick up, since it was the last year for the car.
So basically, don't worry about it.
Actually, I've thought to spend up to $10K for Fiero with t-roof. But now that you point it out that t-roof is not worth it. So, I need to re-think my option.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 06-22-2015).]
Actually, I've thought to spend up to $10K for Fiero with t-roof. But now that you point it out that t-roof is not worth it. So, I need to re-think my option.
I couldn't see spending 10k on a Fiero but that just me. You're definately going to end up sinking money into it as well, so the purchase price is only the begining. I bought my Formula for 2k. Got a thread about it over in General Chat if you want to check it out.
No. Buy what you want. 99% of the time, it won't be the case that it's an issue. Anyone not trying to get a ridiculous amount of money for the car won't have bothered to do it, and judging from the thread, you're not looking to spend that much on a Fiero, or you would have bought one already. Anything in your price range is unlikely to have such tampering done to it. And most 88s with extremely low miles are because someone bought one and kept it in storage hoping for the value to pick up, since it was the last year for the car.
So basically, don't worry about it.
Dobey, Thanks for your feedbacks. Much appreciated!
Leaks, squeaks, and wind noise. T-top cars tend to have more body/chassis flex, which results in squeakiness and wind noise with the tops in, and over time facilitates leaking of water. Then the water can cause the t-top frame components around the seals to rust, which only exacerbates the issue.
A 2002 Firebird with T-tops might not be as bad, and the C6/C7 Vettes are much better with the targa roof, but I'd avoid 80s cars with T-tops like the plague.
Man, my f-body was exactly as you describe minus the rust. The T-tops were a disaster. But, you know, if I bought another it'd sure as hell have T-tops. I can't imagine an f-body without. ROFL
Man, my f-body was exactly as you describe minus the rust. The T-tops were a disaster. But, you know, if I bought another it'd sure as hell have T-tops. I can't imagine an f-body without. ROFL
Yeah, I read that thread a while ago, but that's way too much work to put into something that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. I'm very happy with my sunroof - I'd never even consider a t-top Fiero.
Leaks, squeaks, and wind noise. T-top cars tend to have more body/chassis flex, which results in squeakiness and wind noise with the tops in, and over time facilitates leaking of water.
I had an opportunity a few years back to buy an Enterra Vipre, a relatively rare car that I've always lusted after. It was beautiful, and I could've bought it for a decent price... but I let it go. The reason? T-top. 'Nuff said.
I had an opportunity a few years back to buy an Enterra Vipre, a relatively rare car that I've always lusted after. It was beautiful, and I could've bought it for a decent price... but I let it go. The reason? T-top. 'Nuff said.
Wow! You guys really think this t-top issue can't be solved. Patrick, if you really wanted Enterra Vipre, even if it has t-top, you should have taken it & figure out how to solve t-top issue. Today’s technology, I'm sure we can use better seals to make it better. After reading how Jim's thread how he solved t-top issue with better seals from Camaro. I'm sure we can do that. Maybe the seals need to be lubed often.
Patrick, if you really wanted Enterra Vipre, even if it has t-top, you should have taken it & figure out how to solve t-top issue.
I live in a rain forest (seriously), and I can't be messing about with a car that leaks badly. Here's a picture of the Enterra that I had an opportunity to buy. Notice the canopy? It wasn't for shade.
I live in a rain forest (seriously), and I can't be messing about with a car that leaks badly. Here's a picture of the Enterra that I had an opportunity to buy. Notice the canopy? It wasn't for shade.
Thanks for the picture, Patrick! That really opened my eyes. Along with your advice & others, I've decided to stay away from T tops. Thanks guys for saving me from a bunch of headaches that it will come with. Now, I found two Fieros recently. One without sunroof for $1K more & 10K miles more than other one with sunroof.
I'm leading toward to the one without sunroof even though it cost $1k more. Both are under market value & are supposed to be rust free. So, would you guys agree? I'm having a hard time deciding and would appreciate any feedbacks. Thanks.
Mute argument - I have owned both a 88 and a 86 at the same time. Rebuilt suspensions on both cars, used poly on the 86 (and solid mounted the cradle - no $1000 mods), rubber on the 88. Not a major difference between the 2 in handling. The 86 was easier to steer in the slalom courses, but for everyday driving you will not notice a difference. You may have to rebuild the suspension anyways as the OEM rubber may be worn, so at that point you could just solid mount the cradle on the older cars (which IMHO) is the biggest difference.
Yes the brakes are vented on the 88, but again I never noticed a difference in braking - sure I am sure there would a difference if it was used on the track where brake fade would present itself, but on the slalom track or daily driving no.
As for the 88 wheel bearings, Rodney sells replacement ones, and yes there have been a couple reports that they fail sooner - but in those cases the bearings were used under extreme cases (road racing) vs. daily driving. Sure maybe the OEM lasted longer under those conditions as well, but how many people drive their cars like that daily? For daily use, they are probably fine, but it is a weak point (and a big one) if that is a concern.
I would not pass up a nice 86/87 for a good price in the hopes of getting a 88. But it is your money and your can buy which you want, I am just saying there isn't a noticeable difference between the years for daily driving (or the odd slalom event). Yes on paper 1 does look better but from my experience it did not seem like it was.
As 2.5 said, if you are going to modify the car, better to go cheap in the first place since it will cost you the same in the long run with mods.
quote
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Today’s technology, I'm sure we can use better seals to make it better. After reading how Jim's thread how he solved t-top issue with better seals from Camaro. I'm sure we can do that. Maybe the seals need to be lubed often.
Yes, but at what cost to set-up and produce the rubber? It is really a small market to invest major coin in the tooling unless you can do so cheaply. But I wouldn't let that stop me from buying one, others have been able to make other seals work.
Disclaimer: I do not own the 86 anymore - one had to go, not driving them much anymore and couldn't justify them both sitting. Had more sentimental attachment to the 88 then the 86, hence the reason it was the one to go.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 06-29-2015).]
I used to own a T-top Formula. They were really cool, compared to a sunroof, except for one thing. With a sunroof, you can remove it and stow it, if you choose. Or you can just "pop" the latch, and leave it open at the rear. T-tops have to be removed and stowed. If you get caught in a sudden squall, you will have to stop and place them back on the car. (If the rain is not too heavy, you can even leave the back of the sunroof open, without getting rained on. T-tops... not so much.)
Thanks, Mickey Moose & Raydar for your feedbacks. There are pros & cons of getting pre-'88s as well as '88. I'm gonna see what is available in the market with open mind. Regards to T top, it comes with a price tag of $1K attached to any Fiero value along with leaky issues. I’m gonna stay away from those cars. I wish they would make targa top for Fiero. Now, that would be really cool. I read that targa top has less risk of leaking cuz it's a straight line cross the top.
A Targa roof would lead to a gross amount of flexing in a Fiero. A substantial amount of reinforcing of the spaceframe would be a must.
Yeah, I know. I read someone added a set of steel bars by the doors. Not worth the hassle imo. Just saying if targa top were available, I'll bet most would pick targa top over sunroof any day.
Yeah, I know. I read someone added a set of steel bars by the doors. Not worth the hassle imo. Just saying if targa top were available, I'll bet most would pick targa top over sunroof any day.
With a notchback car, maybe a targa would be better, but I don't think I'd pick one over a moon roof, for a fastback car.
Welcome to the Fiero community. I've owned an 85 V6, 4 speed, since it was new (30 years). 120 thousand miles. After joining a Fiero club in 2011, I've learned more in the past 5 years than all the previous years. This website is a great source of information. You just need to find what is right for your needs, and discount the opinions. I also bought an 88 GT 5 speed off the internet about 3 years ago. It had 56,000 miles, 3rd owner. There are good cars out there if you put in the research looking for one. It took me about 3 months to find this 88. I think Paul's price listings are very accurate. I wouldn't pay for anything that isn't driveable. There's been a Fiero GT for sale for about 4 years on the internet with 300 original miles, and they were asking $40K. (never happen). From all the things I've read, and people I've talked to at Fiero shows, automatics and T tops should be avoided. I've never had problems getting parts for either of my Fieros. As you've already read, there are pros and cons to 84-87's and with 88's. Use all the info you gather to decide. Good hunting!
The 88 undoubtedly has an improved suspension ; it is better but IMO not that much better to pay twice as much for a Fiero. My 87 has 17" Goodyear tires, KYB struts, shocks, poly suspension bushings on the control arms, Rodney's tight bushing on the steering rack, and a set of Addco anti-sway bars (front and rear),; traction is good, steering is solid and the bump steer is non-existent. Under regular driving conditions, in rain or shine, the car holds the road fine. Unless you intend to road race; I doubt (with a just few improvements) that you will notice any real performance difference between the earlier suspension and the 88's. The 88's are certainly more collectible and worth more but any car that old will have you replacing parts.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Welcome to the Fiero community. I've owned an 85 V6, 4 speed, since it was new (30 years). 120 thousand miles. After joining a Fiero club in 2011, I've learned more in the past 5 years than all the previous years. This website is a great source of information. You just need to find what is right for your needs, and discount the opinions. I also bought an 88 GT 5 speed off the internet about 3 years ago. It had 56,000 miles, 3rd owner. There are good cars out there if you put in the research looking for one. It took me about 3 months to find this 88. I think Paul's price listings are very accurate. I wouldn't pay for anything that isn't driveable. There's been a Fiero GT for sale for about 4 years on the internet with 300 original miles, and they were asking $40K. (never happen). From all the things I've read, and people I've talked to at Fiero shows, automatics and T tops should be avoided. I've never had problems getting parts for either of my Fieros. As you've already read, there are pros and cons to 84-87's and with 88's. Use all the info you gather to decide. Good hunting!
Thanks for your nice comment, Sledcaddie! Paul's price listing is pretty accurate but somewhat limited compared to other Fiero's pricing website that I later found out shows more details for what options the car has as wholesale and retail. That guidelines shows more reasonable pricing. There're some sellers that refused to follow Paul's guidelines and wanted another $1K or two on top for no reason. They just grabbed their figures from the air! So, I had to walk away from several negotiations. I refused to bow to those greedy sellers. I'll be patient & wait for a better deal to come along.
I had manual in mind, but was surprised to hear you saying to stay away from automatic. Why is that?
The 88 undoubtedly has an improved suspension ; it is better but IMO not that much better to pay twice as much for a Fiero. My 87 has 17" Goodyear tires, KYB struts, shocks, poly suspension bushings on the control arms, Rodney's tight bushing on the steering rack, and a set of Addco anti-sway bars (front and rear),; traction is good, steering is solid and the bump steer is non-existent. Under regular driving conditions, in rain or shine, the car holds the road fine. Unless you intend to road race; I doubt (with a just few improvements) that you will notice any real performance difference between the earlier suspension and the 88's. The 88's are certainly more collectible and worth more but any car that old will have you replacing parts.
Thanks for your feedback, Dennis LaGrua! At this point after about a month of search, I'm gonna just keep an open mind & see what's available. I have no need to race, but taking it out for a joyride along with local errands.
Thanks for the link, Fierosound! Someone point it out to me few days ago and I'll consider it. I was hoping to find a Fiero with lower miles in 40 to 60K so I can enjoy it longer without having to worry about repairing more parts. But I'll keep it in mind as I search across the market. Thanks again!
Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Thanks for your nice comment, Sledcaddie! Paul's price listing is pretty accurate but somewhat limited compared to other Fiero's pricing website that I later found out shows more details for what options the car has as wholesale and retail. That guidelines shows more reasonable pricing. There're some sellers that refused to follow Paul's guidelines and wanted another $1K or two on top for no reason. They just grabbed their figures from the air! So, I had to walk away from several negotiations. I refused to bow to those greedy sellers. I'll be patient & wait for a better deal to come along.
I had manual in mind, but was surprised to hear you saying to stay away from automatic. Why is that?
LOL. If you think someone asking $6K for a car that some random site says is worth $5K, you've got a lot to learn about buying used cars. Be glad you haven't run into the people trying to sell a stock Fiero for $25-30K.
Thanks for the link, Fierosound! Someone point it out to me few days ago and I'll consider it. I was hoping to find a Fiero with lower miles in 40 to 60K so I can enjoy it longer without having to worry about repairing more parts. But I'll keep it in mind as I search across the market. Thanks again!
Old parts are old. It doesn't matter how many miles are on the car. Some stuff goes bad with time. If it's got 100K+ on the clock and still super clean and running good, you're probably better off, because it's likely to have had maintenance done on it recently. Low mileage cars are going to be driven much less frequently, and may have been stored for years. You're also going to have a very tough time finding one with such low mileage, and in a price range you probably want to pay.
Indeed. A 100k driver that is about to need a head gasket isn't any worse than a 40k garage queen that's about to need every piece of rubber replaced.
1. Cosmetics - because none of the plastic bits are available anymore 2. Paint - because getting a car repainted is expensive and time consuming 3. Electrical - although rare, electrical problems can be a pain to repair and some bits are no longer available 4. Mechanical - because everything mechanical is available, replaceable, and even upgradable
That's how I shop old cars. (And I put "old" in there for your benefit, because everything I own is old. )
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 07-02-2015).]
LOL. If you think someone asking $6K for a car that some random site says is worth $5K, you've got a lot to learn about buying used cars. Be glad you haven't run into the people trying to sell a stock Fiero for $25-30K.
Actually, my offers were $500 or more over Paul’s guidelines. And yet, the sellers wanted $1K or two more. I personally asked Paul himself to see if my offers were fair. He agreed. Bottom line: don’t accept seller's asking price if it’s not reasonable! Same with KBB, people often negotiate below book value.
[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 07-02-2015).]
