Hey guys, I picked up a 3.4l the other day and was curious if there is any upgrades you would do to this block/rotating assembly etc. before doing your build. Is there better pistons to you use? I haven't decided if I'm going to go turbo or not so that's another thing to consider. I the top end plan on doing porting, valves/valve job, rockers, electric water pump(custom fab work), headers, possibly the 7730 swap if i can figure it out.
just thought it would be nice to hear what others have to say.
also any thoughts on cams with and with out turbo for this set up i have planned. this is all going in an 85 gt with a manual 4speed.
Google 60o v6 = a bonanza of info then go to 60degreeV6.com search ==v6 performance on pennock if you want 3.8 buick V6 performance with out the supercharger or turbo pay for a professional head porting job
read the A.R.I. performance site just for interest check out Summit
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 01-16-2014).]
port everything! throttle body, upper and lower intake plenums, intake manifold, heads, exhaust headers, y-pipe! if you turbo, you'll need some custom piping on the exhaust side anyways.
crate 3.4s use a comp 260H equivalent, so at least use that! 272H is recommended because of more overlap, it makes for better high rpm power/torque. but if you turbo, you may want to stick with a 260H its for mild turbo applications as well.
if you don't turbo the engine, stock pistons are fine, if you are in the middle, you may want to go with at least a hypereutectic. if for sure, go forged. unless you want to keep the boost at or under 10psi. (common rule for every 10lbs of boost, is +%100 more power) (3.4 stock is about 170 at the crank, so add 10psi boost and you have 340 at the crank effectively)(before you add a cam)
use an MLS gasket system (100 bucks a gasket) or do the old school thing and get grooves cut for a "special" sealing ring to be used with standard gaskets.
not sure if 3.4 injectors can facilitate the use of a turbo. it could all depend on the boost you want to push. As for a computer upgrade it, you definitely want a custom tune, if the injectors can deal with a turbo's demands, you'll want to be able to tune them to stay open a little longer. and you'll be able to play with the rates of when the cooling fan turns on and off, and where you want your normal operating temperature to be around.
ALSO, I'm not sure if a turbo can fit in the engine compartment of a M/T Fiero, because the turbo would normally sit around where the shifter cables will be going, may want to consider this, some cut out the trunk, but those guys are crazy mo-fo Fiero speed demons, who push their engines to the limits...
Google 60o v6 = a bonanza of info then go to 60degreeV6.com search ==v6 performance on pennock if you want 3.8 buick V6 performance with out the supercharger or turbo pay for a professional head porting job
read the A.R.I. performance site just for interest check out Summit
i just joined 60degreev6 the other day. lots of good info over there. just thought it would be interesting to see what upgrades people would do over here since its going in a fiero. i have a pretty good idea of what i plan on doing, this was more of a fun/curious question.
port everything! throttle body, upper and lower intake plenums, intake manifold, heads, exhaust headers, y-pipe! if you turbo, you'll need some custom piping on the exhaust side anyways.
crate 3.4s use a comp 260H equivalent, so at least use that! 272H is recommended because of more overlap, it makes for better high rpm power/torque. but if you turbo, you may want to stick with a 260H its for mild turbo applications as well.
if you don't turbo the engine, stock pistons are fine, if you are in the middle, you may want to go with at least a hypereutectic. if for sure, go forged. unless you want to keep the boost at or under 10psi. (common rule for every 10lbs of boost, is +%100 more power) (3.4 stock is about 170 at the crank, so add 10psi boost and you have 340 at the crank effectively)(before you add a cam)
use an MLS gasket system (100 bucks a gasket) or do the old school thing and get grooves cut for a "special" sealing ring to be used with standard gaskets.
not sure if 3.4 injectors can facilitate the use of a turbo. it could all depend on the boost you want to push. As for a computer upgrade it, you definitely want a custom tune, if the injectors can deal with a turbo's demands, you'll want to be able to tune them to stay open a little longer. and you'll be able to play with the rates of when the cooling fan turns on and off, and where you want your normal operating temperature to be around.
ALSO, I'm not sure if a turbo can fit in the engine compartment of a M/T Fiero, because the turbo would normally sit around where the shifter cables will be going, may want to consider this, some cut out the trunk, but those guys are crazy mo-fo Fiero speed demons, who push their engines to the limits...
awesome ideas!!! ya if i go turbo it will be twin and one will be where the battering is and the other will be where the air box was. intercooler will be in the trunk blowing down. i have a pretty good idea of the layout if i go that route.
thanks for the input.. again awesome post, thank you.
I would suggest starting with a 3400 block if you plan on doing a rebuild...you can turn it into a 3.4 just by swapping pistons. It also allows the roller-cams from WOT-Tech to be used... See my build thread on what a 3400 bottom end can do with a Fiero top end... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/075502.html
unless you want to keep the boost at or under 10psi. (common rule for every 10lbs of boost, is +%100 more power) (3.4 stock is about 170 at the crank, so add 10psi boost and you have 340 at the crank effectively)(before you add a cam)
Not to hijack your thread but,,,, I'll let you know next Wednesday. I have a rebuilt 3.4 with a 272 cam and a turbo with 10psi, also have plenty of other goodies and she's going on the dyno Wednesday. If it puts down 250 at the wheels im happy.
I would suggest starting with a 3400 block if you plan on doing a rebuild...you can turn it into a 3.4 just by swapping pistons. It also allows the roller-cams from WOT-Tech to be used... See my build thread on what a 3400 bottom end can do with a Fiero top end... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/075502.html
ya i read your intire build from start to finish about 3 days ago i already have the 3.4l motor so i have to start with that.
Not to hijack your thread but,,,, I'll let you know next Wednesday. I have a rebuilt 3.4 with a 272 cam and a turbo with 10psi, also have plenty of other goodies and she's going on the dyno Wednesday. If it puts down 250 at the wheels im happy.
please let me know what you get. do you have a build thread?
I have a 3.4 with a getrag and there is plenty of room for a turbo. Not sure on how the earlier 4spd cables are ran, but I got plenty of room for one. Do the dawg mod as well to the intake.
Not to hijack your thread but,,,, I'll let you know next Wednesday. I have a rebuilt 3.4 with a 272 cam and a turbo with 10psi, also have plenty of other goodies and she's going on the dyno Wednesday. If it puts down 250 at the wheels im happy.
yes, please let me know!!! you should be able to get 250 easily! (theorhetically speaking)
I wonder how the forced induction would work with a lopey cam at idle, unless your turbo doesn't spool at idle
Originally posted by AL87: . (common rule for every 10lbs of boost, is +%100 more power) (3.4 stock is about 170 at the crank, so add 10psi boost and you have 340 at the crank effectively)(before you add a cam)
If my car dyno's at (375HPx 2.5 = 937 HP) 937 horsepower... I will buy you a fur coat. But not a real fur coat, that's just cruel. The point I'm getting at, is that this is not accurate information, and I wouldn't count on it. I would expect a 10 psi turbo 3.4L to have about 300 horsepower at the crank, if it's built properly (including the cam and all mods). If its not, well boom.. eventually.
I also would take that 3.4L block and sell it... If I was even considering doing a turbo application. By the time you build that motor, actually do the turbo work.. especially twin turbos (yes I have done a couple.. as well as twin turbo) you might as well have done a 3800 L67, changed out a pulley and have a couple thousand dollars in your pocket. Not to mention a lot more money in your pocket when you don't have to maintain a twin turbo 10 psi (and it will actually end up being about 12-14 psi with twins..) 60 degree V6.
I would put the motor together, maybe throw a carb set up on it.. run it like you stole it and save some cash to make some real power out of a better starting platform. But that's just my opinion talking. So best of luck to you either way.
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[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 01-16-2014).]
If my car dyno's at (375HPx 2.5 = 937 HP) 937 horsepower... I will buy you a fur coat. But not a real fur coat, that's just cruel. The point I'm getting at, is that this is not accurate information, and I wouldn't count on it. I would expect a 10 psi turbo 3.4L to have about 300 horsepower at the crank, if it's built properly (including the cam and all mods). If its not, well boom.. eventually.
wait... what's up with your math? take me through that again... where did 375hp come from and what is the 2.5? I'm a bit confused... (looks at your tag) OH your northstar? how is it making 375hp naturally aspirated? and you are running 25psi on twin turbos? (HOLY F^@&)
but in stock terms for the man trying to get his project on the road. and for the one about to dyno his, I believe the common rough estimate is that for every 10lbs, you add on %100 of your naturally aspirated hp to your overall hp. right? I don't know what other factors play into if you actually get that much or not. the dyno numbers will read a little lower than these rough estimates, because of driveline loss, since the dyno is reading power to the wheels.
so 170+85=255 for 5lbs; 170+170=340 for 10lbs; and 340+85=425 for 15psi. and so on, and so on...
as for the faux fur coat... idk... lol. its just not my style... we'll have to make other arrangements...
Well your 10psi figure is off, in theory you should be able to double output with 14.7psi. And this too is very generic, as it doubles atmospheric but very few engines run 100% or more VE. However high VE engines consistently more than double output at 14.7psi (Including my turbo 3.4 DOHC). The 2.8/3.4 is anything but high VE, so I think doubling output at 14.7 is attainable, barely, but only with a top shelf build.
I also would take that 3.4L block and sell it... If I was even considering doing a turbo application. By the time you build that motor, actually do the turbo work.. especially twin turbos (yes I have done a couple.. as well as twin turbo) you might as well have done a 3800 L67, changed out a pulley and have a couple thousand dollars in your pocket. Not to mention a lot more money in your pocket when you don't have to maintain a twin turbo 10 psi (and it will actually end up being about 12-14 psi with twins..) 60 degree V6.
I would put the motor together, maybe throw a carb set up on it.. run it like you stole it and save some cash to make some real power out of a better starting platform. But that's just my opinion talking. So best of luck to you either way.
I'm on 60degree and i think I'm one of ........... five members lol theirs just no one on there. i have a thread going that did get some great comments about the 3.4 from some smart people but since it pertains to a fiero i thought it would be nice to hear what fiero owners thought and what they would do if that was the motor they decided to use.
don't need to save up for another motor, I'm not hurting for cash. this was just what i thought would be an interesting subject for those who just don't want the 3.8sc. the default "sell it and get ___ motor" is way to over done lol some people love keeping the fiero completely stock, some want the v8's some want... etc. they are all fun motors in these little cars... i for one love all motor.. fat, skinny, short, tall ... i have enough love to go around lololol
There are a few different routes you could go with the 3.4 build. Some examples:
-- Swap on the top end and pistons from a 3400. Then swap in a healthy camshaft (like the Crane H272 or equivalent). This should yield a substantial performance improvement over the stock 3.4.
-- Swap on the top end and pistons from a 3400, with a more moderate camshaft (like the Crane H260 or Edelbrock) and a turbo. This will yield an even bigger performance boost. And the alloy heads will give you more headroom for boost.
-- Port the stock heads / intake / etc, swap in a healthy camshaft, and swap in 3.4 TDC pistons. This will give you a stock looking engine with about 10:1 compression, and a moderate performance boost.
-- Port the stock heads / intake / etc, swap in a moderate performance camshaft, and add a turbo. The iron heads won't be as boost friendly as the aluminum 3x00 heads. But you'll still get a performance boost.
To the OP, This is the kinda stuff I was talking about on your other thread when I said
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
don't believe everything you read over there.
more then half of this is garbage.
quote
Originally posted by AL87:
port everything! throttle body, upper and lower intake plenums, intake manifold, heads, exhaust headers, y-pipe! if you turbo, you'll need some custom piping on the exhaust side anyways.
crate 3.4s use a comp 260H equivalent, so at least use that! 272H is recommended because of more overlap, it makes for better high rpm power/torque. but if you turbo, you may want to stick with a 260H its for mild turbo applications as well.
if you don't turbo the engine, stock pistons are fine, if you are in the middle, you may want to go with at least a hypereutectic. if for sure, go forged. unless you want to keep the boost at or under 10psi. (common rule for every 10lbs of boost, is +%100 more power) (3.4 stock is about 170 at the crank, so add 10psi boost and you have 340 at the crank effectively)(before you add a cam)
use an MLS gasket system (100 bucks a gasket) or do the old school thing and get grooves cut for a "special" sealing ring to be used with standard gaskets.
not sure if 3.4 injectors can facilitate the use of a turbo. it could all depend on the boost you want to push. As for a computer upgrade it, you definitely want a custom tune, if the injectors can deal with a turbo's demands, you'll want to be able to tune them to stay open a little longer. and you'll be able to play with the rates of when the cooling fan turns on and off, and where you want your normal operating temperature to be around.
ALSO, I'm not sure if a turbo can fit in the engine compartment of a M/T Fiero, because the turbo would normally sit around where the shifter cables will be going, may want to consider this, some cut out the trunk, but those guys are crazy mo-fo Fiero speed demons, who push their engines to the limits...
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 01-17-2014).]
Not to hijack your thread but,,,, I'll let you know next Wednesday. I have a rebuilt 3.4 with a 272 cam and a turbo with 10psi, also have plenty of other goodies and she's going on the dyno Wednesday. If it puts down 250 at the wheels im happy.
Odd choice for cam for a turbo application - not what you normally want. You'll have more overlap than desirable and lots of mix going out the pipe.
The 3.4 is 160 bhp stock. IF you spend a lot of time flowing the top end and use the 3.4 upper plenum, you might get 300 or so. 10 psi or just over is the point of diminishing returns without an intercooler.
I still say a better option for what you want is a 3400 or 3500. out of the box, you're 180-200 HP, you have a engine with less miles, better engineering, better suited to boost, lighter ect. and it damn near bolts in.
------------------ we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
Al87, 2.5 comes from 100 for each 10psi you said, plus "1" for 100% of what I had n/a. So at 15psi according to your math equation, that equals 1.5 plus 1, is 2.5 times. 375 hp is what most guys have figured a 300hp north star with cams and head work would net. So I really hope your right and my car makes 937hp. However I think it will be closer to the 600 hp range. Which is only double stock power levels.
I also wasn't considering driveline loss or anything when i said he would make 300hp, because I meant that a the flywheel. After driveline he will be closer to 235whp. Which is still respectable to put down in a fiero. Some v8s don't even put down 200hp.
OP: blacktree is right though, the 3400 aluminum upper half is a good option, as it's a much better start than the stock fiero stuff, even ported. The 3500 engine being another very good option.
I also agree that the h260 is a better turbo cam than the h272. I'm not sure what else is out there, as when I was building my 3.4 I used the 272.
10psi doubling boost was what I was told, and assumed that for a long time, if Im wrong then I learned something new and I guess its because of volumetric efficiency, which was something I forgot about, so I can understand why you would have to push more boost to get double the hp.
and when I was talking boost in regards to that math with that northstar, it was in regards to overall boost pressure, not stack the pressure of turbos together. unless that is how it works...
10psi doubling boost was what I was told, and assumed that for a long time, if Im wrong then I learned something new and I guess its because of volumetric efficiency, which was something I forgot about, so I can understand why you would have to push more boost to get double the hp.
and when I was talking boost in regards to that math with that northstar, it was in regards to overall boost pressure, not stack the pressure of turbos together. unless that is how it works...
I'm the number one hater. esp when someone just spouts off pure garbage. Your numbers for boost are off by over 47%, and you spout them off as fact. then someone posts simple math and you can't figure that out either.
9/10 threads you post in, you have no clue what you are talking about, then you claim to have "customers" like you run a shop... which if you do, scares the **** out of me, because judging by most of your posts, you just don't have a clue what's going on, or how an engine works or is controlled. I'm not saying I know everything by any means, but I don't go around spouting off garbage either.
in this very post I've quoted, you start talking about volumetric efficiency, and I can tell you don't really know what that is either. Volumetric efficiency is Volume consumed divided by engine displacement multiplied by 100%, (V/s)*100%, an engine taking on boost will always have >100% VE. assuming ambient pressure is 14.7 PSI(normal average @ sea level), theoretical boost to double engine power would be +14.7 PSI, not factoring power consumed to produce the boost and friction.
if you want me to keep going, PM me, I'm not going to clog a thread up.
------------------ we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
well this subject definitely generated some good discussion about the 3.4. thanks all for the input. for hotrodder lovers who struggle to understand this stuff it is very appreciated.
i can rebuild an old school sbc with my eyes closed but the minute fuel injection, ecm and codes come into the conversation.... i just get lost. plus not getting into cars till i was 28 didn't help either. now at 37 I'm in love with working on cars but its takes some thought to learn this stuff. so again thank you.
Odd choice for cam for a turbo application - not what you normally want. You'll have more overlap than desirable and lots of mix going out the pipe.
The 3.4 is 160 bhp stock. IF you spend a lot of time flowing the top end and use the 3.4 upper plenum, you might get 300 or so. 10 psi or just over is the point of diminishing returns without an intercooler.
When the motor was built I wasn't thinking turbo or I probably would have went 3800, you could say I'm the rabbit chasing the carrot now. Anywho, I did have Darrell Morse work the lower and middle intakes and open the TB to 57mm and it is intercooled. I have been tossing around the idea of doing somthing with the upper plenum but not quite sure it would make any difference being that the turbo is pushing the air thru it anyway.
[This message has been edited by JCircs (edited 01-18-2014).]
When the motor was built I wasn't thinking turbo or I probably would have went 3800, you could say I'm the rabbit chasing the carrot now. Anywho, I did have Darrell Morse work the lower and middle intakes and open the TB to 57mm and it is intercooled. I have been tossing around the idea of doing somthing with the upper plenum but not quite sure it would make any difference being that the turbo is pushing the air thru it anyway.
It would make a difference. But so would your heads. Bigger Ports = More Air, More Air = More Fuel, More Fuel + More Air = More Power.
Originally posted by JCircs: When the motor was built I wasn't thinking turbo or I probably would have went 3800, you could say I'm the rabbit chasing the carrot now. Anywho, I did have Darrell Morse work the lower and middle intakes and open the TB to 57mm and it is intercooled. I have been tossing around the idea of doing somthing with the upper plenum but not quite sure it would make any difference being that the turbo is pushing the air thru it anyway.
The #1 restriction in the Fiero intake is the neck after the throttle body. This is a proven fact. It has been flow-tested. Do the DAWG intake neck mod. My local machine shop did it for $200. Someone on this forum does it for $150. The intake neck flows something like the equivalent of a 50mm opening.
The #1 restriction in the Fiero intake is the neck after the throttle body. This is a proven fact. It has been flow-tested. Do the DAWG intake neck mod. My local machine shop did it for $200. Someone on this forum does it for $150. The intake neck flows something like the equivalent of a 50mm opening.
Let me know who does it for 150 and I'll send him my spare today.
Originally posted by ericjon262:assuming ambient pressure is 14.7 PSI(normal average @ sea level), theoretical boost to double engine power would be +14.7 PSI, not factoring power consumed to produce the boost and friction.
thanks for the info.
and Idk why everyone gets soo serious on here. its a forum. if Im wrong, correct me. yes I have customers, but seriously... im aparrently a retard when it comes to turbos (ha, lag joke) I've got experience with the OE transmissions, engines, a few S/C 3800's and a V8, turbos are just... not my style.
I gotta learn as I go, some things I know about and some, I just think I know about, and some I know nothing about.
and I try to be proactive, and supportive, its a waste to detract like how you and others come off.
Please tell me this, if my turbo hits 10psi and holds steady almost instantly at wide open throttle and my boost gauge measures boost from the upper plenum how would a wider neck at the TB really make a difference?
Please tell me this, if my turbo hits 10psi and holds steady almost instantly at wide open throttle and my boost gauge measures boost from the upper plenum how would a wider neck at the TB really make a difference?
Your turbo is working less to flow the same amount of air. Consider that neck like frictional losses. It's about efficiency. Kind of like putting on an underdrive pulley "frees" horsepower. You should do a before and after dyno.
Grab a couple pipes and blow air threw them. The smaller pipe will require more pressure to push the air. Since your only pushing a limited air pressure (10psi) opening every pipe larger allows for more volume... Back to basics, more volume = more air, = more power.
well this subject definitely generated some good discussion about the 3.4. thanks all for the input. for hotrodder lovers who struggle to understand this stuff it is very appreciated.
i can rebuild an old school sbc with my eyes closed but the minute fuel injection, ecm and codes come into the conversation.... i just get lost. plus not getting into cars till i was 28 didn't help either. now at 37 I'm in love with working on cars but its takes some thought to learn this stuff. so again thank you.
in reality, fuel injection doesn't change much. it's just a different way of doing the same thing. the processes for building the engine remain the same, machine flat and straight, check clearances, assemble. the only real problem spots come from valvletrain noise setting off knock sensors(if present) and cam dynamics affecting idle vacuum. valvetrain noise has to be taken into account in the build phase, but idle vacuum can be taken care of in the tune to a degree. you're just using a computer to adjust fuel and spark instead of a screwdriver.
Your turbo is working less to flow the same amount of air. Consider that neck like frictional losses. It's about efficiency. Kind of like putting on an underdrive pulley "frees" horsepower. You should do a before and after dyno.
Seriously stop posting about things you know nothing of. In fact, once you open up the restriction, the turbocharger's efficiency won't change unless it flows outside of it's peak AE island, which a minor intake manifold improvement won't cause. And the turbocharger doesn't use less energy, in fact it uses more. Go to the library. Read. Then teach.
Originally posted by RobertGT: Seriously stop posting about things you know nothing of. In fact, once you open up the restriction, the turbocharger's efficiency won't change unless it flows outside of it's peak AE island, which a minor intake manifold improvement won't cause. And the turbocharger doesn't use less energy, in fact it uses more. Go to the library. Read. Then teach.
Perhaps you should read what I wrote more clearly. By your post, putting a restricting plate with a 10mm opening after the throttle body, it would make the same power. Let me know how that works out for you.
Seriously stop posting about things you know nothing of. In fact, once you open up the restriction, the turbocharger's efficiency won't change unless it flows outside of it's peak AE island, which a minor intake manifold improvement won't cause. And the turbocharger doesn't use less energy, in fact it uses more. Go to the library. Read. Then teach.
i already have the 3.4l motor so i have to start with that. 
