Seriously consider having a LS3 engine swap on my Fiero I am converting into a kitcar. Can someone tell me the pro's and con's of this engine. I am also getting different prices on the installation which includes the exhaust system, which range from $2000- $15,000. These number are not even close to each other. So what is the average price for installation if I get all parts necessary to complete?
Pros: 1) Modern technology engine with one of the best current day designs for the entire engine package (speaking of the internals). 2) Will produce oodles of horsepower. 3) With the correct transmission it could achieve decent fuel economy in a Fiero.
Cons: 1) This is a RWD engine, so to match up with any FWD transmission will require some type of adapter plate (possibly custom). 2) All that HP will destroy any FWD transmission you put behind it. Do you really want an engine that is too powerful for any trans you could use? You would never really be able to enjoy the full potential of the engine. 3) Integrating the PCM with a 25-30 year old car.
Well I can not agree with parts of the previous post. The engine modern technology, has lots of horsepower and there are transmissions that will run just fine behind the LS3. Yes you will need an adapter plate and the swap in not cheap. My swap has been done now over 3 years ago. I run the F40 transmission, get 26 MPG and it dynoed right at 400HP at the rear wheels. I drive this car a lot (avg 10K miles a year) and not one problem. It is a a hand full but a kick to drive. If you get out Jackson way let me know and I will give you a ride.
Jack
------------------ WARNING: Surgeon General said it's okay to smoke 3800s
Well I can not agree with parts of the previous post. The engine modern technology, has lots of horsepower and there are transmissions that will run just fine behind the LS3. Yes you will need an adapter plate and the swap in not cheap. My swap has been done now over 3 years ago. I run the F40 transmission, get 26 MPG and it dynoed right at 400HP at the rear wheels. I drive this car a lot (avg 10K miles a year) and not one problem. It is a a hand full but a kick to drive. If you get out Jackson way let me know and I will give you a ride.
Originally posted by lateFormula: Cons: 1) This is a RWD engine, so to match up with any FWD transmission will require some type of adapter plate (possibly custom). 2) All that HP will destroy any FWD transmission you put behind it. Do you really want an engine that is too powerful for any trans you could use? You would never really be able to enjoy the full potential of the engine. 3) Integrating the PCM with a 25-30 year old car.
These are all nonsense. There are THREE LS3 installs rolling around here locally. They are all now using the G6 6-speed, and one was running with an HTOB Getrag for a while.
All three are also V8 Archie kit installs. Two were done by Archie, and one locally using Archie's kits.
If you want an LS3 swap, the easiest thing to do is just take your car to V8 Archie's shop and have them do the swap.
Originally posted by dobey: These are all nonsense. There are THREE LS3 installs rolling around here locally. They are all now using the G6 6-speed, and one was running with an HTOB Getrag for a while.
It's not nonsense at all. Just because there are several Fieros out there with LS3 installs does not make it nonsense that the engine makes way more torque than any common FWD transmission is rated for, and if you have a heavy right foot you will be replacing transmissions regularly. The F40 is rated for 295 ft/lb, and the LS3 has a nearly flat torque curve and that engine surpasses 300 ft/lb at only 2600 RPM. The 4T65E HD is rated to 280 ft/lb of torque, and there are several videos on You Tube of people flogging cars and those transmissions failing. Even 4T65E transmissions that claim to be "built" fail when you apply too much torque.
I am pretty sure that I could easily grenade an F40 in short order if it were mated to an LS3, and it would not be due to my ability to drive a manual trans. I hold the opinion that an engine swap is a waste of money and time if you cannot take the car out and drive it to the full potential of the engine.
True True...but the proof is in the puddin. I think the weight of the Fiero helps save the trans as there are many many ppl running way more HP through the F40, F23, 4t65e-HD than they are rated for without failure.
I'm definitely no V8 swap expert, but the LS4, has the GM 60 degree v6 bell housing, and it will bolt right up to any of the transmissions that are most commonly used with Fieros and swaps. Just something you might want to look into. Joe Sokol (FieroKing) has done the swap a few times, and he also can install the Tapshift paddle shifter transmission along with it. Just some food for thought. If you want the LS3 then go for it, but if you want another route, check out the LS4.
Originally posted by lateFormula: It's not nonsense at all. Just because there are several Fieros out there with LS3 installs does not make it nonsense that the engine makes way more torque than any common FWD transmission is rated for, and if you have a heavy right foot you will be replacing transmissions regularly.
I am pretty sure that I could easily grenade an F40 in short order if it were mated to an LS3, and it would not be due to my ability to drive a manual trans. I hold the opinion that an engine swap is a waste of money and time if you cannot take the car out and drive it to the full potential of the engine.
And it's plenty easy enough to destroy an FWD trans in a Fiero with any engine, and do it quickly. I'm sorry, but no matter what engine you put in a Fiero, you're not going to be driving it to its full potential on the street. Nor are you going to be doing it if it's in a Corvette. The transmission is not the only weak point. And there's plenty you can do to strengthen it and other things.
But you're an idiot if you think you're going to drive anything at it's "full potential" on the street. Running an LS3 at it's full potential would empty the gas tank in very short order. You don't need to worry about destroying the transmission, when the engine won't run.
Go drive on the highway in 2nd gear in your car and see how much fun it is to drive, running the engine at it's "full potential" if you don't believe me.
EDIT: What destroys the transmission isn't the peak torque of the engine. It's the shock loading and stress created from it, that causes the problem. One way to avoid such a problem, is to fully understand the power curve of the vehicle, and where in that curve you will end up when you shift into a higher, or especially lower, gear. Shock loading can destroy a trans, even when it's behind an engine you think doesn't have that much power.
[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 01-16-2014).]
And when running the engine to its full potential on the street you'll get to know the local cops by their first names since you'll be stopped so often. Then you won't have to worry about blowing up the tranny. You won't be able to drive with a suspended license. If you continue and get stopped again, you won't blow up the tranny as you will not be driving until you get out of jail. Driving the ole Iron Duke to its 'full potential' could get you in trouble.
Thanks for the excellent responses, I'm sure everyone has their favorite engine beside it being a LS3 engine. So let me rephrase my question so I can see where everyone is leaning towards. If you had a Fiero which was stretched in the engine compartment and you are building a Bugatti kit car which engine would you use?
Thanks for the excellent responses, I'm sure everyone has their favorite engine beside it being a LS3 engine. So let me rephrase my question so I can see where everyone is leaning towards. If you had a Fiero which was stretched in the engine compartment and you are building a Bugatti kit car which engine would you use?
Longitudinally mounted BMW V12 and a Porsche or Audi trans. At least if you want to make it look like an Italian engine. If you just want raw power, I'd go with a GM LS platform V8 with a Porsche trans.
Longitudinally mounted BMW V12 and a Porsche or Audi trans. At least if you want to make it look like an Italian engine. If you just want raw power, I'd go with a GM LS platform V8 with a Porsche trans.
It's not nonsense at all. Just because there are several Fieros out there with LS3 installs does not make it nonsense that the engine makes way more torque than any common FWD transmission is rated for, and if you have a heavy right foot you will be replacing transmissions regularly. The F40 is rated for 295 ft/lb, and the LS3 has a nearly flat torque curve and that engine surpasses 300 ft/lb at only 2600 RPM. The 4T65E HD is rated to 280 ft/lb of torque, and there are several videos on You Tube of people flogging cars and those transmissions failing. Even 4T65E transmissions that claim to be "built" fail when you apply too much torque.
I am pretty sure that I could easily grenade an F40 in short order if it were mated to an LS3, and it would not be due to my ability to drive a manual trans. I hold the opinion that an engine swap is a waste of money and time if you cannot take the car out and drive it to the full potential of the engine.
The troll is strong with this one.
Non built and built 65e's here, running 10s or better, deal with it.
Originally posted by darkhorizon: Non built and built 65e's here, running 10s or better, deal with it.
Mmmm, yes but Scott that's not the whole story. Those 65E's are an electronically controlled transmission that communicates to the PCM. At the shift points the ECM pulls timing to reduce the torque output of the engine so as to lessen the burden on the transmission. I have seen a few Grand Prix's in person with various levels of engine mods (3800SC and LS4) and have also seen a few YouTube videos of similar vehicles and so far I have yet to see one that spins, barks, or chirps the tires on upshift. Aren't you the guy who specializes in tuning the turbo 3800's? Why don't you alter your tune so that the PCM does not retard the timing at all on upshifts under moderate to full throttle and let us all know how long the trans lasts.
There is one thing that I really appreciate about front engine/rear drive cars. It isn't hard to find any number of transmissions for such application that can stand up to nearly any level of HP. While I personally prefer the driving experience of a manual trans, I gotta say I also enjoy a race prepped trans that will shift fast and squeal the tires on upshift. That is something automatic FWD transaxles cannot seem to handle.
Originally posted by lateFormula: Why don't you alter your tune so that the PCM does not retard the timing at all on upshifts under moderate to full throttle and let us all know how long the trans lasts.
You think people don't tune that out or reduce it? It's one of the first things that gets tuned down, even in 6000 lb Silverados with the 6l80e. Most of the factory vehicles also have a button to turn it way down/off. Even the new manual transmission vehicles from GM have torque management. Even the low HP ones like the Ecotec in the Cruze/Sonic/Spark, have it.
Why don't you alter your tune so that the PCM does not retard the timing at all on upshifts under moderate to full throttle and let us all know how long the trans lasts
first question is... why? Do you really need an extra 200hp for ~.1 seconds if it helps the transmission last?
Seriously consider having a LS3 engine swap on my Fiero I am converting into a kitcar. Can someone tell me the pro's and con's of this engine. I am also getting different prices on the installation which includes the exhaust system, which range from $2000- $15,000. These number are not even close to each other. So what is the average price for installation if I get all parts necessary to complete?
Having both an LS3 and a 3800 in my 88 Fieros, I can tell you that the two biggest factors you should be looking into is how much money you have to spend on the swap, and how much time you have to do the swap. The second of those also depends on if you are doing the swap yourself, or having it done.
I have less than $5000 into the 3800 swap TOTAL and over $20K in the LS3. Hell the motor in the LS3 swap cost more than the entire 3800 swap. Forget the Oooo factor, the LS3 swap beats the 3800 hands down, the LS3 swap also sounds a lot better too. So if you want the "holy sh*t" factor when you pop the hood, go LS3, if you want to have money left over to buy new rims/tires, paint the car, upgrade the suspension, brakes and install a new interior, sound system and still have money to pay insurance for a year, then go 3800.
Now that said, I do love the torque of the LS3, it just pulls and pulls. As for all the crap about the trans, it depends on how you plan to drive the car. If you plan on dropping the clutch at 3K to show your A$$ in front of your friends, then forget it, you will break parts quick. Both the LS and a tuned SC3800 will break a trans if driven wrong. If you drive the car with respect, drive it to the edge, and plan on keeping it all together, then don't worry about the trans. You could kill a F40, 4T65 or any other trans, but you can also keep them together if you take care of it.
Plan out your budget, plan out your time line, (double both) and figure out how you plan to drive the car. Then you will have a better idea of which parts to buy.
Just a side question to the topic. How does it work with insurance when you upgrade the engine? Obviously, the Fiero 2.8 has one rating but do you have to tell them about an LS3 upgrade? How do they figure the insurance? Etc. I always wondered about this.
20 ft pounds over rating doesn't seem like much to me, any mechanical desigh will always have at least a 50% safety factor built in. Larry
The F40 is rated for 300 ftlbs in 2nd-6th gears, and only about 240 in 1st gear. If you see a number that says 400, that's newton meters, *NOT* ftlbs.
quote
Originally posted by lateFormula: I am pretty sure that I could easily grenade an F40 in short order if it were mated to an LS3, and it would not be due to my ability to drive a manual trans. I hold the opinion that an engine swap is a waste of money and time if you cannot take the car out and drive it to the full potential of the engine.
There's nothing in the world that can't be broken by someone stupid enough to subject it to non-stop abuse.
Thanks for the excellent responses, I'm sure everyone has their favorite engine beside it being a LS3 engine. So let me rephrase my question so I can see where everyone is leaning towards. If you had a Fiero which was stretched in the engine compartment and you are building a Bugatti kit car which engine would you use?
VAG W12 from Audi A8 6.2 It will at least be the right engine family to look like the Bugatti W16.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-18-2014).]
Thanks for the replys, I'm definitely now leaning towards the LS3. The biggest factor is, I'm building an exotic replica car, Buggatti, so it just makes sense to have a V8. Resale is another factor. I have $60,000 into this project, not including new engine, suspension and braking system. So I have to pay attention to detail in this project.
Just a side question to the topic. How does it work with insurance when you upgrade the engine? Obviously, the Fiero 2.8 has one rating but do you have to tell them about an LS3 upgrade? How do they figure the insurance? Etc. I always wondered about this.
At some point you're going to have to look into "collector car" or "agreed value" insurance. Not for the 3800 swap because you can still do it on the cheap, but you're not going to do the LS3 swap for under $15K and that's doing all the labor yourself. You could maybe shave a few $K off that quote, but you would have to purchase used parts to do it. So after you drop that kind of money into a car, if it gets stolen, or burns to the ground, your out $15K and the insurance will cut you a check for $1000 bucks if you're lucky.
Its the same with stereo equipment. You can drop $3K into a sound system and unless you work out something with the insurance co. they have a maximum they will pay if it gets stolen. They also deduct 1% of the value for each month it was in the car. I had a great system in my Camaro years ago and when it was stolen they took off 1% for each month it was in the car, they called it "depreciation cost". It was about 15 months old, and I got 15% less then original value, not replacement value. Now I'm sure that others have a friend who was able to get around this, or worked out some kind of deal with the insurance co. to add to the policy, but those are the exceptions to the rule.
Originally posted by rj0002: Thanks for the replys, I'm definitely now leaning towards the LS3. The biggest factor is, I'm building an exotic replica car, Buggatti, so it just makes sense to have a V8. Resale is another factor. I have $60,000 into this project, not including new engine, suspension and braking system. So I have to pay attention to detail in this project.
So, which Bugatti are you doing exactly?
And are you going transverse or longitudinal for the drivetrain layout?
Resale is another factor. I have $60,000 into this project, not including new engine, suspension and braking system. So I have to pay attention to detail in this project.
The only Fieros I see bringing big money @ resale are prototypes or unique production models being sold by GM. I have never seen a regular production Fiero with an engine swap or rebody ever bring what the owner had invested to build it.
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
I haven't until recently, the professional builder sold 2 kit cars at $90,000. One was from a Mercury Cougar and the other a Fiero. The Cougar did not have anything custom with its engine, the Fiero had an engine swap, don't know what engine. There are buyers who are willing to pay top dollar, but you better have that car perfect in detail. I am in no rush in selling my car when it is done, even though I already have buyers, I am not financially unstable, doing pretty good in my profession. if I do sell it in the future it will be a good buy for somebody.
One more thing I will be registering this car as a Fiero but under some other class which will cover the car for the appraised value.
1 Get your car appraised. Once your car kit is assembled, you need to get your vehicle appraised. You can find appraisers in your local community or you can ask insurance companies for a list of appraisers.
2 Shop companies that specialize in car kits. Since car kits are a unique item, you'll need to find insurance companies that specialize in this market. A couple leading companies include American Collectors Insurance and Hagerty Insurance
I remember seeing that cougar on jalopnik a few years ago. Is there any actual documentation of these cars behind sold? I see that one cougar was listed for $89,000 then relisted for 79,000 with no buyer. A year later the builder was asking $70,000. Then I cam across another cougar that was listed for 33,000 but not purchased either?
