Just to give you an idea on how those mods add up in real life I had some mods done to my 2.8 including 1.6 rockers, 2 chamber flowmaster on stock Y, Hypertech chip and a big bore TB. All that yielded 125whp, 15whp over the stock engine. That would equate to about 146hp and a gain of 17 hp at the crank over the stock engine. If you do your math you still end up with a respectable 14.60. A bone stock 2.8 would be at around 110whp or 129hp at the crank and doing the math again it'll cross the line at 15.21, and that is what you probably have right now. Whatever mods you do to your 2.8 they have to produce at least an extra 45whp or 50+ hp at the crank. The "faster for less money" will disappear because to get that extra hp you'll have to spend some money. Otherwise you better keep it on weight watchers and get your car 700lbs lighter after you get to your 2300lbs goal. Keep posting pictures, it's a big help for me when I decide to lighten mine.
Good Luck!
quote
Originally posted by sunofjustice:
Lafiera,
As previously mentioned, plans for a dual throttle body ARE underway. The factory Y-pipe restriction is still there and waiting to be extracted. A custom computer tune should release even more power. 1.6 FULL roller rockers are on the "back burner", but planned.
I realize there are plenty of people who have "been there, done that". "What ELSE are you gonna do?"
All I can say is, theres always plan "B".
Mums the word. Loose lips sink ships.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 12-02-2010).]
Chill out, I'm NOT interested in any mishaps whilst driving myself. Like I mentioned BEFORE, and again here.......... the car is on LIMITED driving duty.
I drive to get the car to autozone to prevent annoying my fellow apartment residents when making noise working on the fiero. The other times I drive it are the 1/4 mile to work (to give the car some excersize), to get gas, and sometimes to get it washed.
If you want to talk about UNSAFE, ask pontiac why they installed defective con rods in the '84 fieros.
Ask them WHY the rear is BUMPSTEER prone, ask them why they put FADE prone rotors on all four wheels, and why you're at it.......why the OBVIOUS planned obsolence of a radiator fan that comes on at 220 degrees on a REAR ENGINE car! (I already know the RISKS of driving this car STOCK, DO YOU???)
BTW, dont get me started on these chevy pickups that burst into flames from side impacts. (Riddle me this, batman...)
Main reason for the weight reduction is money. With some work, and creativity I can have a competitive, classic/ custom car that will PASS modern cars other than JUST keep up.
i am chill as you put it; i'm pointing out facts, playing devil's advocate. driving it small distences may limit the chance but the chance is still there(chaos theory: anything can and will happen for no reason). The con rods are tested maybe 1-10 in a batch or so, any engine could have any number of parts wrong it only takes one to kill the engine; the bumpsteer was bean counters(ie gm being cheap). The brakes were good for the year they were designed and beyond; the 220 degrees is for fuel economy, go look at any car today.
burst into flames, any car on the road can do that from an impact
and your weight reduction makes me think that you didn't think ahead, or do any research; other then let's take it apart and see what i can do to lose weight
but then again it is your car(may they bury you in it because i don't think it'll have resale value or be safe after your done with it)
I dont know what your proclivity and fascination with DEATH is, as well as actually telling someone " may you get buried in it , because of no resale value..." Thats a disgusting, callous statement that is TOTALLY unnecessary. If you'd get off your high horse, and LISTEN to what was previously stated, my goal is to take the weight off, make the car faster than it currently is, AND provide pix that nobody bothers to do.
The second reason for doing the weight reduction, is it is relatively free to REMOVE DEAD WEIGHT that would provide a bit of perf. as well as MPG, INEXPENSIVELY. Hours at work are way down for everyone there, including myself. Money is tight. This project IS'NT for everyone, but maybe it will help people indirectly.
on the 84''s, If not mistaken, the oil level was PURPOSELY set at 3-4 quarts. This ALSO contributed to engines fires by oil starvation during spirited driving. The rods got dry, seized, and punched a hole in the side of the engine block. Pontiac also installed the "floating" timing tabs, and came up with that wack as hell timing procedure, other than just instructing you to use the coil wire instead of the #1 sparkplug wire.
On the bump steer, yeah that was a bean counter move for sure. But, there were OTHER models to choose from in the parts bin. (6000, J2000, grandprix, firebird)
On brakes, they could of gotten 'em from other cars as well, since a brake search on this forum WILL attest that people want and need BETTER brakes.
220 degrees is still pretty high for an '80s REAR ENGINED car. Todays engines are alot more detailed oriented, are placed in the FRONT, and hypereutectic coatings are becoming more common. If they wanted more MPG, pontiac should of shed some more weight off the car in the first place. To be fair, it WAS amazing that they at least got the fiero into the light of day. Of this, I'm thank full.
Now if I can just post the next page of INTERIOR items, w corresponing weights, WITHOUT unnecessary interruptions.... ( cough Dobey cough)
Well that's just rude. If asking wht your goals are is unnecessary, then I guess you don't really have anything to determine whether or not you achieved them in the end. And if you're trying to be faster than modern cars, which ones exactly? Even with weight loss and some power adders on the 2.8, you're going to have a very hard time being faster than any modern basic coupes with a V6 around 2.8L. You're going to even have a hard time beating out 4 cylinder cars that are about 1.6-2.0L. Heck, the new Chevy Cruze, a 4 door econo box sedan has a 1.4L that makes as much power as the stock Fiero 2.8, and can knock out 40 MPG highway. And it weighs about 3100 lbs.
You're clearly doing this for performance reasons, and I'm just wondering what kind of performance you're trying to get out of it, since all you've really said is FASTER, but not faster than what. Good luck, but when you finish doing all that work and you are still getting beat by new minivans in a traffic light race, don't come start a "i hate fieros, getting a civic" thread like others have before.
White marks are from white marker for cut lines. light plastic drawer found at meijers superstore. ($5.)
I'm using various pieces to help create a USABLE glove box/ armrest.
utility/ glove box completed using automotive "goop"
The utility box was supposed to be open, but weight of me simulating leaning on it kept collapsing the lid. So, a divider was installed.
A foam lid, and some grey pinstripe clothe for the inside will finish it. An opening cut into the skeleton will remove weight, and leave an opening for the utility box/ arm rest to slip right in.
The ORIGINAL computer cover/ armrest weighed 10 lbs. The entire assembly was planned to come under 8 onces. Adding small screws,adhesive, vinyl and foam raised the overall weight to 14 oz. Not too bad, but I'd like to wittle that number back down eventually.
[This message has been edited by sunofjustice (edited 12-03-2010).]
Dobey, An actual dyno run once all the intake, exhaust, and computer work are done will determine HALF of my goal. Actually getting the car weighed, and varifying a close proximity to 2300 pounds will ultimately validate my effort.
BTW, who states in there post they want to be faster than just ONE vehicle?
Usually, a post starts out putting in a displacement of choice, OR someone is trying to get more power out of something.
What do I want to do?
Absurd, dear chap!
Personally, I want it all.......engine performance, suspension performance, and braking performance. What every fiero owner wants out of his vehicle.
RaptorSP, Sorry you will have to wait a bit if you're talking about removing the instrument cluster. I did relocate the AUX GAUGE pod already, and its a chunky monkey. (One pound for two gauges) I'm really interested in getting some light triple gauges. (The autometer temp gauge I have weighs a pound by itself!?)
Theres still some stuff I can still take off of the dash, but I'm also hampered by no garage, and fickle MICHIGAN weather.
If there was ANY chassis stress in this area, I'm sure engineers would have installed a more substantial material other than the fiberglass.
No problem, I'm just trying to help... but I'm not talking about structural integrity. The spare tire pan doesn't do ANYTHING for structural integrity.
What it DOES do, however, is direct the air flowing past the radiator to the underbelly of the car (as I said). This air skimming under the body then gets sucked into the engine bay and extracted through the engine vents.
What I'm saying is that, without anything here, you're creating an air vortex right under the hood in that area which can hurt acceleration.
You know what would be interesting... I know you're looking to improve your quarter mile time by shedding weight, but another thing which would also help your acceleration is reducing your drag co-efficient. Reducing the drag co-efficient would ALSO improve your fuel economy. Since your car weighs less, I bet your fuel economy has (or will) improve as well. It would be interesting to see what you do to help improve aero dynamics by directing air away from the insides of the car... like sealing up gaps and whatnot.
i know that the aero nose turn signles are deep inside the bumper. what about making it flush to the outside bumper? or would that just look to tacky? i wasnt to sure if you have done this yet. but what about cutting out the trunk? or removeing the whole rear trunk area and wall. and removing the rear brace and installing a strut brace. i dont know if that will improve anything or not. just a thought.
White marks are from white marker for cut lines. light plastic drawer found at meijers superstore. ($5.)
I'm using various pieces to help create a USABLE glove box/ armrest.
utility/ glove box completed using automotive "goop"
The utility box was supposed to be open, but weight of me simulating leaning on it kept collapsing the lid. So, a divider was installed.
A foam lid, and some grey pinstripe clothe for the inside will finish it. An opening cut into the skeleton will remove weight, and leave an opening for the utility box/ arm rest to slip right in.
The ORIGINAL computer cover/ armrest weighed 10 lbs. The entire assembly was planned to come under 8 onces. Adding small screws,adhesive, vinyl and foam raised the overall weight to 14 oz. Not too bad, but I'd like to wittle that number back down eventually.
No worries, mate. The front spare tire area WILL be sealed, just getting me jollies from FINALLY being able to see what it looks like under there!
The front spare tire tub will receive a couple of aluminum bars (Maybe three) for a foundation to support an eventual battery relocation.
With the bars installed, the "floor" will be done in the lightest gauge aluminum within reason, and secured with plastic fasteners. (The aluminum bars will get STEEL bolts obviously.)
Since weight reduction involves the whole car, individual projects (like the front spare tire tub replacement) are piece mealed and worked on in a kind of "sortie" manner. Land, take off, come back, REPEAT.
Plus, theres some aluminum that STILL needs to be added to the REAR decklid, and trunk brakelight area. (Mainly for aesthetics)
On the vortex matter, I considered this, but was'nt really sweating it because the front spare tire tub deletion is only TEMPORARY. If anything, I was more concerned about possible radiator heat RETENTION than anything. (A second hood vent louver was strongly considered.)
Lastly, I have been considering converting the fiero's radiator "belly breather" system, to a more direct, air-flow controllable front fascia area ONLY system. Its just a theory, but the stock belly breather radiator system appears as if it could generate FRONT END LIFT , as well as produce turbulence. Air from the fan blows straight into the bulk head divider, swirls around (if hood is stock), then EVENTUALLY exits under the car.
By sealing, and controlling ALL air coming in through the front fascia ONLY, any turbulence that would decrease radiator effeciency, and quite possibly FRONT END LIFT, could be eliminated. Just a thought.
I already converted the factory front turn signal openings into RAM VENTS aimed directly at the radiator.
Weight savings alert!!
If you stategically cut out the BOTTOM of the front fascia ( and leave just enough material for attaching points), you could add aluminum (or PLASTIC) vent work for the radiator, then add an aluminum "floor pan" to seal it all up.
I also thought about moving the driving lights by cutting openings in the bumper, but I like how easy it is to make occasional adjustments. Plus, cutting up a nice, smooth fascia bothers me a little.
I think the trunk partially helps hold the chassis frame rails together. The strut brace, chassis bar delection seems like it could work.
I forget who it was, but someone on this forum had a LONGITUDELY mounted V-8 that had the trunk chassis brace CUT OUT and replaced with what appeared to be a strut tower brace.
It had ALOT of metal welded to the ends of the strut, and chassis though.
3.8 v6 guys have cut their trunks, but I'm not sure HOW MUCH metal was put back in to fill in the spaces.
To keep cost down, and to preserve any structual integrity of cutting the trunk I propose judiciously cutting yard size panels in the fore and aft sections of the trunk.
Or, cut just the LOWER half of the trunk (up to where the frame rails are located), and bolt in an aluminum trunk floor bottom.
If the trunk is hardly, or never used......... the smallest (within reason ) metal bolts could be used to secure the new aluminum trunk floor. (Plastic fastners are possible as well.)
I never saw the original airing of this expose farce, but I do remember the local news talking about it in passing.
Those "investigative journalists" that commited this skullduggery, should of followed one of the ten commandments...... Exodus 20-16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
On the topic sort of - we just put our race car on the scales and it came at 2,400 LBS and was near 50 50 distro. Not bad for a 2nd gen MR2 with a full roll cage. A Fiero stripped down like that would probably be about 2,000 - 2,200 lbs with a roll cage.
I never saw the original airing of this expose farce, but I do remember the local news talking about it in passing.
Those "investigative journalists" that commited this skullduggery, should of followed one of the ten commandments...... Exodus 20-16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
You know how they hype things up, do you think they hyped up their apology? I doubt it.
About how much weight weight do you think you've lost now?
On the topic sort of - we just put our race car on the scales and it came at 2,400 LBS and was near 50 50 distro. Not bad for a 2nd gen MR2 with a full roll cage. A Fiero stripped down like that would probably be about 2,000 - 2,200 lbs with a roll cage.
Who are you racing with? Just curious.
My Fiero weighed 2370 without me, the last time I weighed it, and it has since lost about 15 pounds more by stripping the wire harness and odd pieces here and there. It has a 6 point cage plus a tire intrusion bar on the left side. My cage is about 130 pounds, It was 120 before I installed it but have since added a couple updated bars as required by rule changes. I am currently running EP which allows for some pretty serious weight reduction, that I have done.
When I switched to EP and could legally lighten it, the weight distribution got worse than when it was heavier. It used to be 48-52 front-rear. It currently is 44-56 front rear and will probably stay in that range from now on.
Originally posted by baldlobo: kind of wondering how suicidal you are; your sabotaging alot of the body to save weight
The body doesn't lend any structural integrity to the car. Neither does the interior, or the spare tire boot.
So far, the OP hasn't mentioned any mods to the chassis. So the car should still be just as crash-worthy as a stock Fiero. If anything, it'll be a little safer, since there will be less debris flying around the cabin during a crash. And since the car weighs less, it will probably be more likely to bounce off whatever hits it, instead of crushing.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm just curious... are you planning on re-installing the front trunk / spare tire pan?
It's an integral part of the body's air flow and dynamics. At pretty much anything over 30 miles an hour, it's used to help the aerodynamics of the car and also is used to help extract (properly) the air passing through the radiator, and directs it under the car which ALSO then gets sucked up through the engine vents (there-by cooling the motor).
Who told you this?
I doubt the spare tire tub does anything for aerodynamics. If anything, it obstructs airflow from the radiator fan. Here are a couple photos of an IMSA Fiero race car. Notice the lack of any "spare tire tub like structure" in the front end.
If a race car doesn't need a spare tire tub for aero, then a street car definitely does not.
That said, I have to agree the OP's estimates for performance gain are a little optimistic. I made that mistake myself, when building the first V6 for my Fiero. The numbers on paper suggested a 190-200 HP engine, but the chassis dyno said otherwise (140 HP / 180 ft-lb at the wheels).
That said, I have to agree the OP's estimates for performance gain are a little optimistic. I made that mistake myself, when building the first V6 for my Fiero. The numbers on paper suggested a 190-200 HP engine, but the chassis dyno said otherwise (140 HP / 180 ft-lb at the wheels).
140hp and 180ft/lbs at the wheel, that is good! At what RPM? Can you post the dynographs?
I was refering to the fact that he removed 15 lbs from the hood, depending on what was removed, it might not buckle correctly or at all, he replaced the hinges with something he found at lowes; those vents in the back are ugly as sin and probably increase the cars cd; those over the roof scoops create drag(in addition they look like they're sitting on the original vents. i classify the "egg crate" as part of the body and it does absorbe energy in a crash and not to be a bummer but doing stuff "on the cheap" usuallly results in something not functioning correctly or at all in the long run
OK, fair enough. I agree the over-the-roof scoops will increase Cd (and weight). I guess I missed the part about the door hinges. As for the hood, it will probably disintegrate in a crash, since it no longer has any structural integrity.
Also, here's an idea regarding the "eggcrate" energy absorber. Many modern cars use pieces of molded styrofoam for that. The styrofoam weighs much less than the plastic, and will still offer some cushion in a wreck. Just a thought.
first off, let me apologize for not clarifying, and articulating my mission statement more throughly from the get go.
Also, my apologies to everyone if I caused you any undo confusion.
Please bear with me, I'm a bit of a hermit.....and I tend to "jump" ahead to the heart of a subject matter WITHOUT broaching a PROPER introduction. My bad.
With this said, I'll give a brief recap of my cars stats, and final mission statement.
My car is a 1986 fiero GT, the engine has been replaced with a NEW remanufactured 2.8 back in 1998.
ONLY mods to the 2.8 are: K/N, bigbore T.body (cut intake to match t body), Lucas disc style injectors (19#), adj. fuel pressure regulator, comp. cam roller TIP 1.5 rockers, ported heads, sprint headers, thrush glass pack (no cat), aluminum underdrive pulley, adj. map sensor, accel coil,wires, and hypertech chip (using stock currently).
I WAS planning to supercharge the 2.8, but changed my mind. (TOO much money, engine longivity issues.)
The last two years have been a financial rollercoaster, preventing me from driving the fiero legally.
This year, money, credit and rent are MUCH better. But, due to midland funding...... money is back to trickling again.
I want to make the fiero more competitive, and FUN to drive. IE: more power, handling, and braking.)
I'm not interested in just doing drag strip times either, ( I just want to show proof of its capabilities.)
the CHEAPEST (frugal) way of getting performance (such as stated above) is to REDUCE weight from your vehicle. (Every hundred pounds REMOVED is the equivalent of gaining TEN horsepower.)
My fiero weighs roughly 2700 pounds. If I REMOVE 400 pounds, my car should accelerate like it gained 40 horsepower WITHOUT engine work.
Of course I still intend to add more horsepower. Right now, I'm just concentrating on the simplest,and"cheapest" method to SIMULATE that power has been added.
(Although Nitrous is an option, it seems too risky. Plus, you never own the power. You just RENT it.)
In a nutshell, I wish to reduce the curb weight of my car to 2300 pounds, I wish to increase my horse power to 180 horses. (180 REAR wheel would be ALOT better, but who am I kidding?) During the weight reduction, the car should be "racy" looking over all, but NOT gutted looking.
Plus, any weight removed that HAS to be put back, Windows, seats, battery etc.) WILL be replaced with a lightweight substitute.
Again, sorry for the long post, peeps. I'll post some pix for you shorty. Thankyou for your patience.
although I applaud your efforts to emulate ralph nader, but like black tree mentioned, most of my weight reduction was done on BODY PANELS. Not the chassis it self.
As far as the hood modding is concerned, I dont see it doing anything but BREAKING up. When I lean on it (very carefully) it gives quite a bit.
Not to mention, I have locking hoodpins on the area next to the windshield. If there was a crash ( knock on wood, thanks to this hater.), the front of the hood would push BACKWARD, the rear of the hood would stay put. The whole middle section of hood would break UPWARDS.
In response to "buying on the cheap," You DONT always get what you pay for. Actually, in America, we pay ALOT more for things that should have a moderate price tag just because of.....THE NAME, or because we are brainwashed with insistent ,ubiquitous ADVERTIZING.
The hinges i bought were for holding shed doors. With weight removed from the hood, (20 lbs) it should weigh only 20lbs. (An ALL aluminum hood COULD of weighed under 10lbs)
Thusly, I DONT need hinges that would hold 40-50 lbs.
[This message has been edited by sunofjustice (edited 12-05-2010).]
I like the PURPOSE that they were intended to do, bringing in FRESH, COOL AIR to the engine compartment.
The factory intended DIRTY air, (coming off of the road) to EVENTUALLY cool off the engine compartment. (C'mon, you gotta admit the side decklid vents ARE too small.)
To be fair, some sections of the roof vents design do bother me sometimes. The scoops start out fairly nice, then get FAT on the bottom. (The aesthetics, and the HIGH PRESSURE air seem compromised.)
Well, you gotta break eggs to make an omelet. I might have to reconsider the scoops since AERODYNAMIC drag is counterproductive to speed. (Or, I could find a way to make BETTER, LIGHTER over roof scoops.)
Lastly, I dont appreciate folks ragging on my ride. Baldlobo, lets see pics of your car so we can dissect how it looks hmm?
[This message has been edited by sunofjustice (edited 12-05-2010).]
