Keen received a note that a car that he is the last known owner of is in an impound lot. The storage and impound charges are at $4k and the lot owner is getting ready to sell the car at auction and gave Keen a chance to buy it back for the impound fees. A substantial discount because of his service to our country. Keen was told that the car was recovered and suspected stolen as it had a tag off of a different Fiero on it. So he assumed that someone has been trashing a stolen car and the owner doesn't care about it as its been sitting in a lot and is ready to be sold. If he would have passed on the deal who would have ended up with the car? It would have probably went to the scrap yard for $50
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Originally posted by CommanderKeen:
So about halfway through the deployment my place got knocked over. Everything of value stolen from my house, and my Fiero MIA.
Got a certified note few days back saying it had been found, abandoned and with stolen plates, about 100 miles north of Ft Lewis. Impound fees at 4k o.O
Talked to the manager today, he said he wasn't going to hammer me as I had just returned from overseas. Said if I didn't want the vehicle anymore they would just auction it and he would write off any leftover fees. He said if I did want it, they would knock all the storage fees off of it and only charge me the base impound fee to get it back.
So! I'm renting a U-haul truck and car tower and I'm heading up there tomorrow to pick it up. He said the vehicle is undamaged, and that he will have his locksmith cut me a car key. -Sam
Now it is a bit fishy that he says his Fiero is MIA when he didn't technically own it but maybe he was embellishing the story and just made that part up, I don't know he hasn't said anything. But did he do anything wrong buying a car that was headed for auction or the scrap yard? If that part of the story is true then what did he do wrong other than tell a story?
XzotikGT would you have been able to pay the $4k storage and impound fees to get the car back? I feel bad for you, I know it doesn't sound like it but I do. Your out a car but is it all Keens fault? Or is it the system that put your car in an impound lot and gave them the right to sell your property without paying you for it?
How long does a car have to stay in an impound lot before it can be sold? Is the owner just covering his ass and hoping the registered letter will go unanswered so he can sell the car? Did Keen jump the gun and should have XzotikGT been given a chance to get the car first? I don't know I only know what happened and what has been reported here.
Now it is a bit fishy that he says his Fiero is MIA when he didn't technically own it but maybe he was embellishing the story and just made that part up, I don't know he hasn't said anything. But did he do anything wrong buying a car that was headed for auction or the scrap yard? If that part of the story is true then what did he do wrong other than tell a story?
He didn't buy it he STOLE it. He paid an impound fee and took it home as if it belonged to him so yes he did do something wrong. He also made up a story about it being stolen from him while he was away in the service which is the only reason he got it out of impound that cheap. Now he has taken the car from X, claiming it was his own when he had already sold it and he took the impound lot by telling a story to elicit sympathy. Had they known the real story they wouldn't have given it to him let alone cut him a huge break.
Keen has been in the service for more than a few years now and just getting back in the states after a year in the sand box. Are we even sure it was Keen who "sold" the car? Thinking back I never asked for an ID for the last car I purchased, they could have been anyone. The title was already signed when it was handed to me so who knows who signed it.
Keen has been in the service for more than a few years now and just getting back in the states after a year in the sand box. Are we even sure it was Keen who "sold" the car? Thinking back I never asked for an ID for the last car I purchased, they could have been anyone. The title was already signed when it was handed to me so who knows who signed it.
The guy was in full uniform, on a secure in which you need ID to get onto military base, name tag and all. Its not like I met him at the local Safeway.
The car was stolen once before...like i said earlier, AND I WENT TO THE TOW YARD, paid the fess title in hand and drove the car home.....LIKE I SAID BEFORE.
He didn't buy it he STOLE it. He paid an impound fee and took it home as if it belonged to him so yes he did do something wrong. He also made up a story about it being stolen from him while he was away in the service which is the only reason he got it out of impound that cheap. Now he has taken the car from X, claiming it was his own when he had already sold it and he took the impound lot by telling a story to elicit sympathy. Had they known the real story they wouldn't have given it to him let alone cut him a huge break.
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In Florida, a PRIVATE IMPOUND (not repossession) is to be held 50 days, not including date of impound or date of sale, if the vehicle is three years of age or less. If older than three years of age, a vehicle must be held 35 days not including date of impound or date of sale.
If the car has sat on the impound lot for the required time limit than legally they can do anything they want to with the car. I think Keen let his emotions get the best of him and after being ripped off he may have seen this as a little pay back for what he has lost. Being it was his first car he probably couldn't believe his luck. If you go back and read some of his threads from 5 or so years ago he was on the verge of losing the car and it sounds like he finally did have to sell it. Do you remember how you felt when you sold your first car? I know I felt sick for days that I had done the wrong thing, if for what ever reason it fell back in my lap I would probably have a large laps of judgment as well. Wouldn't make it right and I would try to make restitution if I could.
None of this would be a issue if the car had been titled after it was sold, not that it releases anyone from responsibility but it is something to think about the next time you buy a car. I personally never leave a title open as it just makes it harder when you do try to get a title for it. Been there done that and wont do it again.
Originally posted by mcaanda: There was a police report filed. I believe it was stated 2 pages back.
You posted that the vehicle was reported to the police but Xzotik did not mention the Police in his post. This led to the confusion of if there was a report or not. Also see next response.
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Originally posted by mcaanda: Filing a police report stating that it has been stolen is not an indication of abandonment. I do believe that is an affidavit to which you are stating that its been taken, and you would like the authorities to assist in its recovery.
You are correct. A police report of a stolen car is NOT an indication of abandonment. Per the State of Washington if the vehicle is in an impound lot for more than 5 days it is considered "abandoned" A stolen car report only allows the owner to waive the impound fees.
So if a police report was filed the second time, Why did the towing company call Keen? Why didn't the police contact Xzotik when it was first recovered? The police are the ones who ticketed the car for towing so they would have run the VIN (since the plates were expired) and contacted the person who filed the stolen car report.
This is what seems odd. If a police report was filed, why wasn't Xzotik notified? The police will always run the VIN of a suspected stolen or abandoned car. As soon as the VIN comes up stolen, The police call the person who filed the police report usually within 24 hours. Again this sounds like he never really filed a police report but rather just called local towing companies as he indicated in his post on page 3. If he in fact did NOT file a police report, then he abandoned the car.
Why did Keen have to pay $4K in fees? With $4K in fees the vehicle was in the impound lot for a while not just a week or so. Xzotik has even posted that it had been a few months. Also since Keen had to pay fees, Keen did not file a police report. It specifically states in the link I posted that abandon vehicle fees are waived if there is a police report. Also it took a while for them to notify Keen, and he was notified by the towing company not the police. It was also noted that the car was "suspected of being stolen due to the expired tags" Again this makes me assume that there was no such police report on file. If there was then the car would have been noted as "Stolen"
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Originally posted by neverendingproject:
He didn't buy it he STOLE it. He paid an impound fee and took it home as if it belonged to him so yes he did do something wrong.
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Originally posted by samt:
fraud...this is a criminal offence this I know something about
In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent
There was no "intentional deception" Keen did not even know about the car until he was notified about it. They notified him of it because he was the last owner of record. They told him the car was abandoned and suspected stolen. So there was no "intent" also he did NOT steal it. Per the State's DMV he is the owner of record and ONLY he was legally responsible for the impound fees. If they had sent you the same letter, and you had the money for it wouldn't you pick up the car? Keen had no knowledge as to what the buyer had done with the car. So how could there be intent to defraud???????
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-05-2010).]
The guy was in full uniform, on a secure in which you need ID to get onto military base, name tag and all. Its not like I met him at the local Safeway.
The car was stolen once before...like i said earlier, AND I WENT TO THE TOW YARD, paid the fess title in hand and drove the car home.....LIKE I SAID BEFORE.
I saw that but was it $4000? I look at the before pictures and sorry but thats not a $4000 car. Its closer to a $500 - $700 car. Again not calling you out just wondering if the car was worth $4000 to you.
Have you been in contact with Keen? I feel for you, but its hard when you admit that you didn't look very hard for the car. Its also hard when you drove it for so long without the proper title and tag. I hope that the both of you can get together and come up with something that both of you can live with.
This wasnt his first car..especially something he was posting about 5 years ago. He bought this car the June right before I bought it, look at the title. When I was buying this car he told me he had as many as four Fieros.
If I was notified that the car was in the impound, the same impound that it was at before, where they have a copy of my ID laid over the title, my address, my phone number, I would have went to go get it again. But as I stated before. I highly doubt the feees were 4k, and I doubt that just the standard fee was over 400 as he stated. I know, I paid the fees the first time, and I didnt get no big "veteran" status discount.
[This message has been edited by XzotikGT (edited 11-05-2010).]
If I was notified that the car was in the impound, the same impound that it was at before, where they have a copy of my ID laid over the title, my address, my phone number, I would have went to go get it again.
So why were you not notified? Did the Police fail to notify you that they recovered the stolen car that was noted in your police report? If so you should be able to take the report number and file a complaint with the Police department.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-05-2010).]
The fraud is saying it was his car...I argue that legally it was not.....the bill of sale/title if indeed signed by him I'm fairly sure will/would stand up in court...just because you don't say something doesn't mean there's no deception..not saying he sold it is a deception...if all this is true he knew that he sold it he knew who he sold to..he took money for it he signed a bill of sale and or title over for it...not saying any of that is deception...is there a gain to him by not saying that?
So why were you not notified? Did the Police fail to notify you that they recovered the stolen car that was noted in your police report? If so you should be able to take the report number and file a complaint with the Police department.
Do we know that the police were involved at all in the recovery? It may have been a property owner who noticed a car sitting too long and called the towing company who ended up with it. Do you know what the story is X? If the police were involved they would have run the plates and known what was up. Then again if it had the wrong plates on it they may not have checked the vin and there you go.
The tags that were on the car when I saw the pictures in the beginning of this thread were from a car I owned. If the police were involved with the recovery I think they would have at least contacted me....or the metal place you and I dropped that chasis off at. In turn they would have contacted me, since they also have my information.
I have no idea why I wasnt contacted when the car was recovered. To add to that I think it is pretty retarded to think that I would scour the country for the car. All you can really do is file a report, and check the likely places. I mean look at what happened. The car was stolen from me in Renton, WA...and turned up a couple months later at Archies. The car had no battery, and it was severely disabled. So apparently if it wasnt really close by, then it wasnt going to just turn up.
I think this one is going to be up to the authorities to settle. If the impound lot "sold" the car to Keen then its his. Thats within the laws in my state and it sounds like its the same in your state and he is in the right to keep the car. If they released the car to him because he said it was his then he should be in the wrong and you are due restitution depending on how a judge rules. But if it was never taken out of his name then it could go his way. If he satisfied the impound lot and the tag agency then you will have a tough battle getting the car back but perhaps some restitution is in order and this can be settled where both of you can walk away. I'm sorry but your mistake was not getting the car put in your name, that would have protected you.
So let me ask you what do you think a car that has been stolen twice, left out in the elements and has a trashed motor worth? Its hard to wrap my head around someone putting money into a car that has questionable ownership. I know that an engine, hatch and suspension work would be a substantial cost and I know what a norms flipper hood cost and its a lot more money then I would ever put into a car that I acquired under questionable conditions. He could have easily have found another car and put the money into it without these worries. Thats what I just cant understand, he was very open about the car and had to know there was a good chance that you would be part of or lurking on this board. The car was not changed so he wasn't afraid of you seeing it. If I just sunk that much money into a car I would be motivated to do what ever it took to keep it. This entire situation makes my head hurt, I hope that it can be straightened out without too many more hard feelings.
My question is was this car ever actually reported as "stolen" to the Police???? From the sounds of Xzotik's posts, he did not. He just called local towing companies. I doubt Keen actually filed a Police report. I believe he just received a call from the towing company stating they found his car abandoned and he was legally responsible for the impound fees.
I am trying to be as nice as possible with this, but you are really starting to annoy me. Stop putting words in my mouth, stop assuming crap like this is some CSI Miami case.
IF...you were actually in the military then I am sure you would understand the impact something like this can have on a soldier. But, apparently you weren't, or you are suffering from a extreme case of amnesia. Its nice that you want to go against the grain...maybe do the "against all odds thing" The fact still remains, he is in posession of car that he sold to me claiming that I stole it from his residence. Then I just modded a car I stole and drove the crap out of it for two years. I am sure the means he used to get the car back were not honest by any means, not to mention how he got it retitled.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I heard you the first time. I should have gotten it transferred. You got me there. Given the condition of the car, at the time it wasnt feasible. MY BAD.
I saw that but was it $4000? I look at the before pictures and sorry but thats not a $4000 car. Its closer to a $500 - $700 car. Again not calling you out just wondering if the car was worth $4000 to you.
Have you been in contact with Keen? I feel for you, but its hard when you admit that you didn't look very hard for the car. Its also hard when you drove it for so long without the proper title and tag. I hope that the both of you can get together and come up with something that both of you can live with.
Like someone posted above, with a car being reported stolen you dont have to pay the "4k" worth of fees. I know from experience. I will not post a copy of anything that has my information on, just know there is a lot more information I have in my file.
But, If I had to pay 4k to get it, then yeah it would have went to auction. I dont have a way to contact "keen", or Samuel C. Rogers. Just know the story he posted here, and the story he told skyway to get the car are drastically different. According to damn near the whole office staff, "keen" said he needed to get the car back ASAP...before he deployed in a few weeks....commanding officer is making him do it....cant have his name fattached to something like this...."special clearances" blah blah blah.
I am not trying to be a butt about all of this. I am just pretty peturbed that the car ended up back in his hands, and the lies he spit out about it all. I am not a thief, he sold me the car. I really didnt appreciate him calling me a "dickhead", and the fact that he had the nerve to pulla stunt like this and then dangle it in front of my face. To me thats his biggest mistake. If he wanted to pull something this shady he could have at least kept it to himself. Its not like the Fiero community is so huge that you can pull a something like this off and go un-noticed. I wasnt trolling this forum, and the last time I was actually here was years ago. I wouldnt have never known the difference. I guess I am just in a state of "you gotta be kidding me, who the hell does he think he is"...
Perhaps, but if you read it it seems as if dick head, and auto engineering student were seemingly linked together. I am neither, but thats what I got out of it.
Oh, and lets not forget the fact that the car wasnt stolen from him.
[This message has been edited by XzotikGT (edited 11-05-2010).]
Perhaps, but if you read it it seems as if dick head, and auto engineering student were seemingly linked together. I am neither, but thats what I got out of it.
Oh, and lets not forget the fact that the car wasnt stolen from him.
I agree but if I "purchased" a car from an impound lot and found a lot of damage I would probably curse at the jerk that got it put there
Originally posted by Oreif: So if a police report was filed the second time, Why did the towing company call Keen?
The tow company sees hundreds of cars a month, I seriously doubt they are going to remember each and every one that comes though their lot. Checking registration records, the state of Washington is going to list Keen as the owner. They were not notified of the sale.
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Originally posted by Oreif: Why didn't the police contact Xzotik when it was first recovered?
Your assuming that it was the police that called the car into be towed - it could have been a great number of places that did it. Hell, it could have been dropped off at the local Pizza Hut for all you / me / anybody knows. Businesses dont want vehicles that are in disrepair on their property and many call to have them removed.
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Originally posted by Oreif: The police are the ones who ticketed the car for towing so they would have run the VIN (since the plates were expired) and contacted the person who filed the stolen car report.
I think this needs an "if" in front of it. Your making claims that unless you have been in contact with Keen and / or the tow yard you can not verifiably ( if that's a word ) make.
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Originally posted by Oreif: There was no "intentional deception" Keen did not even know about the car until he was notified about it.
The intentional deception was stating that he owned the car, and that it had not been sold to X quite some time before.
The more i read, i think the police would end up washing their hands of this and determining that it is purely a civil matter.
With that being said, and hopefully to move this along, XzotikGT what would it take to make things right ? What is it that would satisfy you in this situation ?
Again folks we are talking about a $500 car,..it would be more of a crime to waste money on lawyers, if you two can settle this like men.
Best thing for the parties actually involved is to stop posting. Try to work it out amongst yourselves, failing that, speak to an attorney. Let us know how it works out when/if it ever is.
Well here this goes. I'm editing this a couple times for language, civility and removing some stuff that I shouldn't have on a public forum.
I used the word "misleading" the first time I wrote this. Its another word for lying but it sounds nicer so I suppose I shouldn't use it.
I can't decide if I should put my text above, below or amongst the lie. Writing it any of those ways makes it appear to be an excuse, and theres no excuse for lying. I'll knock out the laundry first then I'll write my comments. Up to you guys if you want to believe it or not. I will lay down the fact. I will try to keep it all short and sweetish. I previously owned a 86 Gt Pontiac Fiero.
I, on a cold winter night outside the barracks, exchanged the car to a guy and his dad for either 200 bucks or 500 bucks. I don't remember. I signed a green WA title over, and the guy and his dad jumped the car and took off. I sold it because I had to place to keep it, and no money to fix it up due to a messy divorce.
I, a week or so later, ended up going out of state for training. I forgot to report the sale.
I, upon returning from Afghanistan received a month old certified letter that was forwarded from an old address in the barracks. The letter stated that my 1986 Pontiac Fiero Gt was impounded. It stated that I owed just south of 4000 dollars in fees. The auction date was less than a week away.
I, called the impound lot and explained that it was sold years ago. The impound lot explained to me that legally, I still owned and was liable for the 86 Pontiac Fiero Gt. The apologized for the bad news, and informed me that if the car was not auctions for over 4k, they would be suing me to collect the remainder. In addition, the impound lot informed me that the police had been involved, because the car was found with plates that were from a different car, and could have been stolen or borrowed. It seemed pretty banged up, according to them.
I, find this inconvenient due to my lack of money (Rotating CD's and waiting on Soldiers Saving Fund to cash out, in addition to replacing all of my stolen personal property).
I, find this even more inconvenient due to my clearance level in the service. It's up there a little bit. And I'm trying to qualify it so it could go higher in the future, allowing me dream job placement. Anyways, this is something that would be impossible to accomplish with a vehicle impounded, auctioned, then paying the court ordered remainder. This was the abbreviated line explanation due to all things opsec. I've spent five years training so that I could qualify for this dream job placement. In addition to all of my other things of value being broken or stolen, now it seems this is falling apart.
I, looked and looked. I checked my Archived PFF for sale thread. Checked my PM box. Checked my email. Couldn't find anything. I couldn't tell you anything about the guy who bought it except for that his dad was a DOD civilian and that the kid had some kind of long hair. They seemed nice.
I, Went to JAG to see counsel, because I thought there was no way this was happening to me. They told me that I was in fact screwed. Legally, I am still the owner and liable for the vehicle.
I, went to the DMV and sat down with their manager lady. She repeated what JAG said and told me to file my report of sale next time.
I, called the Towing company, and asked to speak with a manager. I explained my situation again and I asked him if there was anything I could do. He said that I could pay the fees or always hope the auction pays it off. I told him I really didn't have that option. He said he didn't want to hammer me since I had just got home, and said to come in and talk to them before the auction.
I, drove to the towing yard. The were several police officers there. I spent some time talking to one who just shook his head and said "you're screwed, you're liable for it." We went outside to look at the car, I took some documents and a book over to one of the officers. He looked through them and said "you would think an engineering student would take better care of his car."
I, went inside to talk to the people who owned the company. They told me that they felt bad that I had gotten hammered by someone who left me out to dry. They significantly reduced the amount of money I had to pay for the car. This was good, because it was almost all the money I had.
I, drove to a U-haul and rented a truck and trailer. Everyone I know was already on leave, and I had no access to a truck. We pushed the car onto the trailer and I drove it home and dumped it there. It sat there for several days.
I, went to the DMV again for more information on how to proceed. I asked if there was any way for them to run the different plates for information. They can't give out that information. I wanted to check to see if there was any sort of insurance gap issue (a friend of mine had this happen in AZ) since the car still apparently legally belonged to me but was not insured. They said I was good, but that I needed to re-title since I didn't have the title. I asked if she could find out if anyone had reported the car stolen. She told me that when the re-title was processed I would be notified and no title would be sent. I collected new plates, tags and registration.
I, received a title in the mail. No stolen car report ever filed.
I, finally got access to my savings again. I decided that rather than buy another car (As I originally intended, as clean Fieros seem to run 3-4k on the sale board) I would use this one since I was transplanting the motor anyways. I contacted the DMV again, to ask about it, and was told that my title superseded any other titles, and that I own the car.
I, sent the car to Archie. I lied about my car being stolen on Pennocks Fiero Forum. For those looking to witch hunt, you can stop right here.
These are my comments, and some of the things I was feeling and some of the reason's/excuses that I carried on the way I did.
This is an excuse. The previous 12 months have not been easy. Down Range Divorce. Awful Deployment. The same terrible stuff that every other soldier deals with, mental and emotional fatigue. Trying to slog through that and finally getting home, and having a shot at (for my occupation) the big leagues was the ultimate relief. My relief was completely blindsided by finding out that I could lose that placement because I had been hung out to dry by a guy who didn't want to pay 50 bucks in sales tax on a car.
To say that I was livid was an understatement. I was enraged. I was so upset about this stupid car that it made me sick.
I'm on several forums for different enthusiast hobbies and such. Most people know I'm in the Army. I've made alot of enthusiast friends in real life from a few different forums, and PFF is no different.
By lying I have brought discredit upon the Army and Corps of the Non Commissioned Officer. I posted that the car was stolen because it was easier than explaining everything above. I get angry even thinking about all the stuff I had to do with this. Even on the inter web I try to post professionally and politely at all times and places because people know I'm a service member. I truly do strive to do the right thing, in and out of the uniform. I just couldn't find a way to post what happened. I was so angry I was beside myself. Rather than Detail the all the garbage above, I called it stolen. The rest of my crap was stolen, not a Fiero. It was easier than trying to explain the amount of hours I put into driving all over the place trying to figure out how I could legally get hammered like this. I wanted to write blithering rants that only used three or four real words per sentence. The work related issues this caused are greatly abbreviated here out of necessity. I was trying to be positive, professional, and move on. I called him a thief and a dick head, when he was in fact only actually a dick head. Of course the dick head part is based completely off my assumption that all of this was done intentionally, or unintentionally with no disregard to the possible harm it could cause. It could all just be me, upset about all the other **** going on and flipping out about this as well.
I posted the "stolen car" bit in an attempt to not rant and rave and disgrace the uniform I wear, and I ended up doing it anyway. I apologize again to anyone on PFF who is wearing a uniform or has ever worn one.
I've read this thread, against the advice of my girlfriend and friends I am posting this. I am posting this because PFF has been the last vestige on the internet for civil folks, and people who belong to other forums I am sure will agree.
And I messed up by bringing bull crap drama to a forum that I loved because it was devoid of it.
I'm sorry that XzotikGT is pissed. Reading over all of this again it almost looks like he posted for the same reason I did, and that was being offended and pissed off. I apologize for calling you a thief and a dick head if this **** was unintentional . If I had been able to find which person I had sold the car to, I would have contacted you. But I had no idea. And No time. Honestly though I do feel that the fact that you let me burn in the first place had shown me that you would not have done the right thing. You said you called it in stolen, but I got a title with no issues, after the car had been impounded for a month. Where were you waiving your signed title around then? I'm sorry it turned out like this. I am sorry because I had to take the car. I didn't want it. I much would have preferred to buy a clean GT somewhere a few months after I got home and send it to Archie. I didn't dump 25k into my Fiero of choice. But these were the cards you dealt me, and I had to roll with it.
For all the "intent to deceive" posts. I never told a legal entity or government representative that it was stolen. Thats what I got from their side. I spent days banging the "It's not my car" drum, and was told "too bad, its your and you are liable." This was from the Cops at the towing yard, JAG, and the DMV. It does not make any sense. I'm a firm believer in property rights, the laws and policies that make this drama possible are garbage and I can't believe they even exist. Its a slight to car owners that this **** is possible, on both sides of the table.
It's my car. Legally and completely. You could have spent 50 bucks to make it your car, a 250 dollar total investment. You abandoned the vehicle. I paid for the car a second time from the impound lot to keep my own ass out of hot water because it was my only option. But it seems you didn't want to have to take responsibility for the vehicle, from your admission to driving it illegally with another persons plates from another car for two years to your obvious disregard of the vehicle after you left it on the side of the road knowing it couldn't blow back on you. That's how I feel, if that is incorrect of misguided please let me know. My PM box hasn't been full or anything. I'll be sending this to you before I post it on the thread. I did the wrong thing, I did the best with what I had in the situation I was in. It blew my mind that I could spend five years working towards a career goal and then lose that in an instant because I forgot to file a piece of paper a couple years ago for a 200 dollar car. It made me mad, at myself and at whomever had possession of the car before this nonsense. If I am not welcome here then let me know. I would like to continue to post work in progress pictures to return to the forum the same step by step inspiration that got me to this point. If my posting is otherwise not welcome, vote me off or just plain PM me and tell me to foad. Thanks.
Unfortunately Sam, the fact that you lied before (and it was a BIG lie) brings into question anything you might say now. I'm not judging you, I'm just stating how your comments are liable to be viewed by others.
I know I wouldn't want to be the arbitrator of this mess.
Being in the car business-selling them for over 33 years, I know that IT IS STUPID not to get the title signed. So by not doing that you are going to face more expense that what it would have cost in the first place. When you take short cuts it comes back and bites you.
Unfortunately Sam, the fact that you lied before (and it was a BIG lie) brings into question anything you might say now. I'm not judging you, I'm just stating how your comments are liable to be viewed by others.
I know I wouldn't want to be the arbitrator of this mess.
A semi unrelated, but very personal note. I have had a very hard time writing THIS is a clean manner.
Patrick. You obviously have something against U.S. Soldiers. Its great to read through this thread and have you spoking the fire every five posts or so. While I love the noose swingin, please allow me to explain my "battle fatigue" in term you, as a Canadian, may be able to figure out.
My battle fatigue comes from the Arghandab River Valley. Two of my good friends died there. Forty other men lost their lives there. Over 275 men lost limbs, eyes, and control of their bodies there from my Brigade alone. My Brigade was supposed to relieve the Canadians of their battle space. You see Patrick the Canadian Command spent the last five year lying to NATO and saying that they had "secured" their battle space. "Secured" in Canada apparently means hiding in camps like cowards because the area is bogged with enemy. And rather than tell us about it, they let us walk a single battalion into an area that historically routed FIVE Russian heavy brigades, instead of just admitting that they didn't ever clear it. But it was nice watching you guys play roller hockey on the airfield as we flew our casualties in. Over and over and over again. You guys are really good. You might have noticed that the Canadians are no longer in charge of anything. The contempt I feel for you knows no end. If, for the sake of civility, you could sit back and let these other guys bash me for being a lying dickhead; I would appreciate a lack of your input from here on in.
A semi unrelated, but very personal note. I have had a very hard time writing THIS is a clean manner.
Patrick. You obviously have something against U.S. Soldiers. Its great to read through this thread and have you spoking the fire every five posts or so. While I love the noose swingin, please allow me to explain my "battle fatigue" in term you, as a Canadian, may be able to figure out.
My battle fatigue comes from the Arghandab River Valley. Two of my good friends died there. Forty other men lost their lives there. Over 275 men lost limbs, eyes, and control of their bodies there from my Brigade alone. My Brigade was supposed to relieve the Canadians of their battle space. You see Patrick the Canadian Command spent the last five year lying to NATO and saying that they had "secured" their battle space. "Secured" in Canada apparently means hiding in camps like cowards because the area is bogged with enemy. And rather than tell us about it, they let us walk a single battalion into an area that historically routed FIVE Russian heavy brigades, instead of just admitting that they didn't ever clear it. But it was nice watching you guys play roller hockey on the airfield as we flew our casualties in. Over and over and over again. You guys are really good. You might have noticed that the Canadians are no longer in charge of anything. The contempt I feel for you knows no end. If, for the sake of civility, you could sit back and let these other guys bash me for being a lying dickhead; I would appreciate a lack of your input from here on in.
Oh, so now I'm the bad guy in all this. Right.
Nice attempt to try and deflect attention away from the real issues in this thread.
well im just glad to hear the other side of the story. definatly a messy situation... humm all i can say is best of luck to both of you and i hope that no one especially archie gets burned from this point on. **** ups were made on both sides... if it was me all i could say whether or not i was keen or xzotikgt i would just call it a wash and forget about it. whats done is done lessons learned and part ways, unfortunalty life isnt fair and altho there maybe a right and a wrong party with the details so messy that if this gets pursued theres a chance that even more screwing could happen. just clap your hands flip them up palms up and palms down like a black jack dealer and walk away.
Nice attempt to try and deflect attention away from the real issues in this thread.
I'm not trying to deflect anything, I spent thirty minutes writing a post directed primarily to xzotikgt, and secondarily to the members of this forum I intentionally misled. Two wrongs don't make a right, I was stuck between a rock and a hard place but regardless of my intentions it didn't give me the right to claim some guy was a thief. I'm asking you to stop posting here. Your response was predictable based on your previous posts here. You've made your opinion known, I'm a guilty lying fiero stealing baby killer. I understand. But the fatigue of war is not a joke or the issue here, and to throw it around like some cheap-crap excuse that you seem to EXPECT ill use as an American Soldier is disrespectful to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice and those who are still dealing with the loss of their friends. I've deployed to non-combat missions before, and I can tell you first hand that I quickly learned this last year why the VA is overflowing with PTSD cases.
But, as I said in my post above, thats my job and burden as a soldier. It is not an excuse for my actions.
[This message has been edited by CommanderKeen (edited 11-06-2010).]
well im just glad to hear the other side of the story. definatly a messy situation... humm all i can say is best of luck to both of you and i hope that no one especially archie gets burned from this point on. **** ups were made on both sides... if it was me all i could say whether or not i was keen or xzotikgt i would just call it a wash and forget about it. whats done is done lessons learned and part ways, unfortunalty life isnt fair and altho there maybe a right and a wrong party with the details so messy that if this gets pursued theres a chance that even more screwing could happen. just clap your hands flip them up palms up and palms down like a black jack dealer and walk away.
Archie and Norm have of course both been paid in full. It just seemed like a waste to junkyard drop a beat-up, but still salvageable car after having to pay for it a second time. Especially after what I went through before I ended up with it and since I planned on buying a car for the swap anyway. I would have rather done it that way. DMV and JAG told me I was in the legal clear to do so.
Perhaps, but if you read it it seems as if dick head, and auto engineering student were seemingly linked together. I am neither, but thats what I got out of it.
Oh, and lets not forget the fact that the car wasnt stolen from him.
Auto engineering was just what the cop who was looking through the loose stuff there told me. I honestly didn't remember anything about you and as the lot and police told me, there was no way for me to tell who even had it or how many times it could have been sold or switched hands. I had one or two days to make a move and my options were kinda limited.
The dick head stuff was out of line, and based primarily on my tard rage that resulted from some serious, potentially expensive and career disrupting blindsiding. I also used that with the assumption that this happened on your end intentionally, and as I stated above if that is not the case I apologize for spouting my mouth off like a dick head.
EDIT - And yes, the car was not stolen from me.
[This message has been edited by CommanderKeen (edited 11-06-2010).]
Well here this goes. I'm editing this a couple times for language, civility and removing some stuff that I shouldn't have on a public forum.
I used the word "misleading" the first time I wrote this. Its another word for lying but it sounds nicer so I suppose I shouldn't use it.
I can't decide if I should put my text above, below or amongst the lie. Writing it any of those ways makes it appear to be an excuse, and theres no excuse for lying. I'll knock out the laundry first then I'll write my comments. Up to you guys if you want to believe it or not. I will lay down the fact. I will try to keep it all short and sweetish. I previously owned a 86 Gt Pontiac Fiero.
I, on a cold winter night outside the barracks, exchanged the car to a guy and his dad for either 200 bucks or 500 bucks. I don't remember. I signed a green WA title over, and the guy and his dad jumped the car and took off. I sold it because I had to place to keep it, and no money to fix it up due to a messy divorce.
I, a week or so later, ended up going out of state for training. I forgot to report the sale.
I, upon returning from Afghanistan received a month old certified letter that was forwarded from an old address in the barracks. The letter stated that my 1986 Pontiac Fiero Gt was impounded. It stated that I owed just south of 4000 dollars in fees. The auction date was less than a week away.
I, called the impound lot and explained that it was sold years ago. The impound lot explained to me that legally, I still owned and was liable for the 86 Pontiac Fiero Gt. The apologized for the bad news, and informed me that if the car was not auctions for over 4k, they would be suing me to collect the remainder. In addition, the impound lot informed me that the police had been involved, because the car was found with plates that were from a different car, and could have been stolen or borrowed. It seemed pretty banged up, according to them.
I, find this inconvenient due to my lack of money (Rotating CD's and waiting on Soldiers Saving Fund to cash out, in addition to replacing all of my stolen personal property).
I, find this even more inconvenient due to my clearance level in the service. It's up there a little bit. And I'm trying to qualify it so it could go higher in the future, allowing me dream job placement. Anyways, this is something that would be impossible to accomplish with a vehicle impounded, auctioned, then paying the court ordered remainder. This was the abbreviated line explanation due to all things opsec. I've spent five years training so that I could qualify for this dream job placement. In addition to all of my other things of value being broken or stolen, now it seems this is falling apart.
I, looked and looked. I checked my Archived PFF for sale thread. Checked my PM box. Checked my email. Couldn't find anything. I couldn't tell you anything about the guy who bought it except for that his dad was a DOD civilian and that the kid had some kind of long hair. They seemed nice.
I, Went to JAG to see counsel, because I thought there was no way this was happening to me. They told me that I was in fact screwed. Legally, I am still the owner and liable for the vehicle.
I, went to the DMV and sat down with their manager lady. She repeated what JAG said and told me to file my report of sale next time.
I, called the Towing company, and asked to speak with a manager. I explained my situation again and I asked him if there was anything I could do. He said that I could pay the fees or always hope the auction pays it off. I told him I really didn't have that option. He said he didn't want to hammer me since I had just got home, and said to come in and talk to them before the auction.
I, drove to the towing yard. The were several police officers there. I spent some time talking to one who just shook his head and said "you're screwed, you're liable for it." We went outside to look at the car, I took some documents and a book over to one of the officers. He looked through them and said "you would think an engineering student would take better care of his car."
I, went inside to talk to the people who owned the company. They told me that they felt bad that I had gotten hammered by someone who left me out to dry. They significantly reduced the amount of money I had to pay for the car. This was good, because it was almost all the money I had.
I, drove to a U-haul and rented a truck and trailer. Everyone I know was already on leave, and I had no access to a truck. We pushed the car onto the trailer and I drove it home and dumped it there. It sat there for several days.
I, went to the DMV again for more information on how to proceed. I asked if there was any way for them to run the different plates for information. They can't give out that information. I wanted to check to see if there was any sort of insurance gap issue (a friend of mine had this happen in AZ) since the car still apparently legally belonged to me but was not insured. They said I was good, but that I needed to re-title since I didn't have the title. I asked if she could find out if anyone had reported the car stolen. She told me that when the re-title was processed I would be notified and no title would be sent. I collected new plates, tags and registration.
I, received a title in the mail. No stolen car report ever filed.
I, finally got access to my savings again. I decided that rather than buy another car (As I originally intended, as clean Fieros seem to run 3-4k on the sale board) I would use this one since I was transplanting the motor anyways. I contacted the DMV again, to ask about it, and was told that my title superseded any other titles, and that I own the car.
I, sent the car to Archie. I lied about my car being stolen on Pennocks Fiero Forum. For those looking to witch hunt, you can stop right here.
These are my comments, and some of the things I was feeling and some of the reason's/excuses that I carried on the way I did.
This is an excuse. The previous 12 months have not been easy. Down Range Divorce. Awful Deployment. The same terrible stuff that every other soldier deals with, mental and emotional fatigue. Trying to slog through that and finally getting home, and having a shot at (for my occupation) the big leagues was the ultimate relief. My relief was completely blindsided by finding out that I could lose that placement because I had been hung out to dry by a guy who didn't want to pay 50 bucks in sales tax on a car.
To say that I was livid was an understatement. I was enraged. I was so upset about this stupid car that it made me sick.
I'm on several forums for different enthusiast hobbies and such. Most people know I'm in the Army. I've made alot of enthusiast friends in real life from a few different forums, and PFF is no different.
By lying I have brought discredit upon the Army and Corps of the Non Commissioned Officer. I posted that the car was stolen because it was easier than explaining everything above. I get angry even thinking about all the stuff I had to do with this. Even on the inter web I try to post professionally and politely at all times and places because people know I'm a service member. I truly do strive to do the right thing, in and out of the uniform. I just couldn't find a way to post what happened. I was so angry I was beside myself. Rather than Detail the all the garbage above, I called it stolen. The rest of my crap was stolen, not a Fiero. It was easier than trying to explain the amount of hours I put into driving all over the place trying to figure out how I could legally get hammered like this. I wanted to write blithering rants that only used three or four real words per sentence. The work related issues this caused are greatly abbreviated here out of necessity. I was trying to be positive, professional, and move on. I called him a thief and a dick head, when he was in fact only actually a dick head. Of course the dick head part is based completely off my assumption that all of this was done intentionally, or unintentionally with no disregard to the possible harm it could cause. It could all just be me, upset about all the other **** going on and flipping out about this as well.
I posted the "stolen car" bit in an attempt to not rant and rave and disgrace the uniform I wear, and I ended up doing it anyway. I apologize again to anyone on PFF who is wearing a uniform or has ever worn one.
I've read this thread, against the advice of my girlfriend and friends I am posting this. I am posting this because PFF has been the last vestige on the internet for civil folks, and people who belong to other forums I am sure will agree.
And I messed up by bringing bull crap drama to a forum that I loved because it was devoid of it.
I'm sorry that XzotikGT is pissed. Reading over all of this again it almost looks like he posted for the same reason I did, and that was being offended and pissed off. I apologize for calling you a thief and a dick head if this **** was unintentional . If I had been able to find which person I had sold the car to, I would have contacted you. But I had no idea. And No time. Honestly though I do feel that the fact that you let me burn in the first place had shown me that you would not have done the right thing. You said you called it in stolen, but I got a title with no issues, after the car had been impounded for a month. Where were you waiving your signed title around then? I'm sorry it turned out like this. I am sorry because I had to take the car. I didn't want it. I much would have preferred to buy a clean GT somewhere a few months after I got home and send it to Archie. I didn't dump 25k into my Fiero of choice. But these were the cards you dealt me, and I had to roll with it.
For all the "intent to deceive" posts. I never told a legal entity or government representative that it was stolen. Thats what I got from their side. I spent days banging the "It's not my car" drum, and was told "too bad, its your and you are liable." This was from the Cops at the towing yard, JAG, and the DMV. It does not make any sense. I'm a firm believer in property rights, the laws and policies that make this drama possible are garbage and I can't believe they even exist. Its a slight to car owners that this **** is possible, on both sides of the table.
It's my car. Legally and completely. You could have spent 50 bucks to make it your car, a 250 dollar total investment. You abandoned the vehicle. I paid for the car a second time from the impound lot to keep my own ass out of hot water because it was my only option. But it seems you didn't want to have to take responsibility for the vehicle, from your admission to driving it illegally with another persons plates from another car for two years to your obvious disregard of the vehicle after you left it on the side of the road knowing it couldn't blow back on you. That's how I feel, if that is incorrect of misguided please let me know. My PM box hasn't been full or anything. I'll be sending this to you before I post it on the thread. I did the wrong thing, I did the best with what I had in the situation I was in. It blew my mind that I could spend five years working towards a career goal and then lose that in an instant because I forgot to file a piece of paper a couple years ago for a 200 dollar car. It made me mad, at myself and at whomever had possession of the car before this nonsense. If I am not welcome here then let me know. I would like to continue to post work in progress pictures to return to the forum the same step by step inspiration that got me to this point. If my posting is otherwise not welcome, vote me off or just plain PM me and tell me to foad. Thanks.
-Sam
quote
Originally posted by CommanderKeen:
A semi unrelated, but very personal note. I have had a very hard time writing THIS is a clean manner.
Patrick. You obviously have something against U.S. Soldiers. Its great to read through this thread and have you spoking the fire every five posts or so. While I love the noose swingin, please allow me to explain my "battle fatigue" in term you, as a Canadian, may be able to figure out.
My battle fatigue comes from the Arghandab River Valley. Two of my good friends died there. Forty other men lost their lives there. Over 275 men lost limbs, eyes, and control of their bodies there from my Brigade alone. My Brigade was supposed to relieve the Canadians of their battle space. You see Patrick the Canadian Command spent the last five year lying to NATO and saying that they had "secured" their battle space. "Secured" in Canada apparently means hiding in camps like cowards because the area is bogged with enemy. And rather than tell us about it, they let us walk a single battalion into an area that historically routed FIVE Russian heavy brigades, instead of just admitting that they didn't ever clear it. But it was nice watching you guys play roller hockey on the airfield as we flew our casualties in. Over and over and over again. You guys are really good. You might have noticed that the Canadians are no longer in charge of anything. The contempt I feel for you knows no end. If, for the sake of civility, you could sit back and let these other guys bash me for being a lying dickhead; I would appreciate a lack of your input from here on in.
quote
Originally posted by CommanderKeen:
I'm not trying to deflect anything, I spent thirty minutes writing a post directed primarily to xzotikgt, and secondarily to the members of this forum I intentionally misled. Two wrongs don't make a right, I was stuck between a rock and a hard place but regardless of my intentions it didn't give me the right to claim some guy was a thief. I'm asking you to stop posting here. Your response was predictable based on your previous posts here. You've made your opinion known, I'm a guilty lying fiero stealing baby killer. I understand. But the fatigue of war is not a joke or the issue here, and to throw it around like some cheap-crap excuse that you seem to EXPECT ill use as an American Soldier is disrespectful to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice and those who are still dealing with the loss of their friends. I've deployed to non-combat missions before, and I can tell you first hand that I quickly learned this last year why the VA is overflowing with PTSD cases.
But, as I said in my post above, thats my job and burden as a soldier. It is not an excuse for my actions.
quote
Originally posted by CommanderKeen: Archie and Norm have of course both been paid in full. It just seemed like a waste to junkyard drop a beat-up, but still salvageable car after having to pay for it a second time. Especially after what I went through before I ended up with it and since I planned on buying a car for the swap anyway. I would have rather done it that way. DMV and JAG told me I was in the legal clear to do so.
I'm asking you to stop posting here. Your response was predictable based on your previous posts here.
I don't know what you read into my post, but there was nothing wrong or improper with it. No intent of malice. If anything it was meant to be somewhat supportive, stated in a very civil manner.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Unfortunately Sam, the fact that you lied before (and it was a BIG lie) brings into question anything you might say now. I'm not judging you, I'm just stating how your comments are liable to be viewed by others.
I know I wouldn't want to be the arbitrator of this mess.
Insinuating I have something against American soldiers is beyond ridiculous. Liars... well now, that's a different matter.
And I'll continue to post here as long as I see fit. Thanks.
While a signed/dated title is proof the car was sold and should help from a legal standpoint... there is nothing legal or logical about the DMV. If the title was never transferred, the previous owner can go back to the DMV at any time after the sale and file for a lost title. This duplicate title from that point on superceedes the original one in the purchasers hand and makes the original title untransferrable.
I purchased a car that came with an open title and when we went to transfer it, found out the previous owner had junked it 6 months after it was sold...
Keeping titles open is very risky anymore, when you buy a car, put it in your name.
This is accurate. The same stupid laws that make me liable for a car sold years ago due to un-filed paperwork make the only option I have to renew all of my paperwork. I needed paperwork so I could put legitimate plates, tags, decals, and new insurance information on the vehicle. I couldn't risk another impound or possible legal issue (no insurance for a car in my possession registered to me) that could affect my job.
So let me get this straight, you (Keen) had to pay 4k to get the car out of the impound lot? Xzotik, where did the second run-in with the impound lot come into play? If I'm reading this right, Xzotik pretty much stuck Keen with 4k in impound fees? Sure, the whole lie was shitty, but I think having to fork out 4k for a $500 car because someone didn't take the time to transfer the title is even shittier! Not bashing anyone...waiting for more clarifiction. Good luck to you both....
