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V6 intake plenum spacers: should I make them? If so, HELP! by fieromadman
Started on: 11-03-2016 07:57 PM
Replies: 58 (1259 views)
Last post by: shemdogg on 05-09-2017 11:41 PM
fieromadman
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Report this Post11-03-2016 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieromadmanClick Here to visit fieromadman's HomePageClick Here to Email fieromadmanSend a Private Message to fieromadmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is a follow up from my thread in the mall about the 2.8 liter intake plenum spacers. To see the thread look here:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/074714.html

Also the intake spacer has been discussed in great depth in this thread:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/096062.html

Now that the links are out of the way, the mall thing went quiet mainly because either people were not looking in that vaguely titled thread or the price point is wrong or we hit a dead end with testing to see how thick we can make them. I no longer have access to a Fiero (for the time being) so I'll need some help with that.



Here is pricing: Shipping, 'standard' engraving, hardware and gaskets included: $110.75 usd shipped in the lower 48. This is a set price obviously including 2 spacers and everything else needed to install.

That was quoting for a spacer that is .625" thick. We can obviously go thicker but keep in mind that the thicker you go the more machining time is involved. It costs about 7 dollars per 1/4 inch of thickness (machining and material costs). If we start getting really thick that increases exponentially.

So if you guys would, please give me answers to the following questions:

1. Would you buy it?
2. How much clearance is there from the intake manifold to your decklid?
3. How thick do you want the spacer?
4. What would you like the engraving to say?

Thank you all so much!
-Jeff Depies

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Report this Post11-03-2016 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for viperineClick Here to Email viperineSend a Private Message to viperineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love the looks, but doubt I would add these to my car. For thickness recommendations, draw some out and see what thickness permits the best letter fitment of whatever phrase you decide upon.
More importantly, get deck lid clearance measurements from members with at least relatively new engine and transmisson mounts, including the poly guys.
While I might not be a buyer, I would love to see these get produced, and those are the only hiccups I could foresee.

Edit to add, I might consider a purchase if the spacer engraving said "We caught fire!"

[This message has been edited by viperine (edited 11-03-2016).]

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jjd2296
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Report this Post11-04-2016 05:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jjd2296Send a Private Message to jjd2296Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will definitely buy a set just as shown. Shipping needed to Ontario Canada !!
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Report this Post11-04-2016 05:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero 88Click Here to Email Fiero 88Send a Private Message to Fiero 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would be a potential customer. I just got my Fiero last spring so I have a long list of things I need to do, but I wouldn't mind adding these to the list. Even if they don't do much for performance, I like the look.

------------------
Past:
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Present:
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Report this Post11-04-2016 07:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Might be interested after some reviews of people who have used it, curious of its effects.

I'd want it to say Formula in the same font as the Formula door decal.
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Report this Post11-04-2016 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it would be even better if they could be made out of Phenolic or some other material that insulates the upper plenum....

Yes, I know the aluminum looks terrific and is easy to machine......

And I just measured my 85 SE V6 w/ 86-88 GT rear bodywork and I had stuff stacked up 2.5" and could still close the lid.....You do want some clearance because of engine movement- especially with rubber mounts like mine- Stock 88 engine and rear trany mount, with a WCF front trany mount converted to rubber....That one probably raised the forward side of the engine assembly by 1/4 approx'.....
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Report this Post11-04-2016 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it would be even better if they could be made out of Phenolic or some other material that insulates the upper plenum....

.....


Good point! Cooler air.
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Report this Post11-04-2016 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for viperineClick Here to Email viperineSend a Private Message to viperineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Good point! Cooler air.


I'm not on the cold air intake bandwagon, and I know very little about it. But phenolic spacers for carburetors serve a purpose mostly to keep fuel from "boiling over" in the float bowls. The air temperature doesn't seem to be of any importance at this point in the system, as far as a spacer goes. And the carb spacers usually have a design that aids air/fuel mixing in the design of the venturi openings. The other applicable note for temps, would be like that of an "air gap intake" that is very popular for small block Chevy 's. But this design is primarily to keep hot oil away from the runners, which this spacer isn't needed for, we already have an air-gap in 2.8's. I have a 406 SBC with a 1" phenolic spacer (to resolve hot start conditions) and an air-gap intake. I like 'em, but wouldn't say they made much, if any performance gains. Just more reliable operation.
With fuel entering the system downstream of these spacers, I wouldn't count on performance boosts. They just look rather nice.
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Report this Post11-04-2016 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zmcdonalSend a Private Message to zmcdonalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by viperine:


I'm not on the cold air intake bandwagon, and I know very little about it. But phenolic spacers for carburetors serve a purpose mostly to keep fuel from "boiling over" in the float bowls. The air temperature doesn't seem to be of any importance at this point in the system, as far as a spacer goes. And the carb spacers usually have a design that aids air/fuel mixing in the design of the venturi openings. The other applicable note for temps, would be like that of an "air gap intake" that is very popular for small block Chevy 's. But this design is primarily to keep hot oil away from the runners, which this spacer isn't needed for, we already have an air-gap in 2.8's. I have a 406 SBC with a 1" phenolic spacer (to resolve hot start conditions) and an air-gap intake. I like 'em, but wouldn't say they made much, if any performance gains. Just more reliable operation.
With fuel entering the system downstream of these spacers, I wouldn't count on performance boosts. They just look rather nice.


It might help keep the upper plenum cooler, if there is an insulator between the middle and upper intake, therefor keeping the air in the upper plenum from heating up as much before it makes its way into the cylinders. I don't know how much there would be to gain from it, but the colder the air the better.

[This message has been edited by zmcdonal (edited 11-04-2016).]

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Report this Post11-04-2016 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

And I just measured my 85 SE V6 w/ 86-88 GT rear bodywork and I had stuff stacked up 2.5" and could still close the lid...


So you're saying with your '85 notchie that if the upper intake plenum was raised 2.5" that nothing anywhere would hit the underside of the decklid? That really surprises me. When things settle down here, I'll measure the clearance in my Formula.

 
quote
Originally posted by zmcdonal:

It might help keep the upper plenum cooler, if there is an insulator between the middle and upper intake, therefor keeping the air in the upper plenum from heating up as much before it makes its way into the cylinders.


I suspect that so much exhaust heat is sent to the upper intake through the EGR tube that any "cooling" with the use of these spacers would be negligible.

My plan, if it's ever put into motion, is to raise the upper plenum enough to give me room to add some underneath duct-work for a smaller secondary throttle body (strictly for WOT purposes).

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-04-2016).]

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Report this Post11-04-2016 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jjd2296Send a Private Message to jjd2296Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't want any gain I just like the look for car shows.
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Report this Post11-04-2016 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jjd2296:

I don't want any gain I just like the look for car shows.


IMO, best approach for buying these. They do look nice but better in polished aluminum

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Report this Post11-05-2016 12:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've designed and had a friend CNC mine out of alunimum... I lov'em... When I first installed them, you could feel the band smooth out in HP:. A more even acceleration and better top end.. Well slight.. It helps to port the plenum too. I didn't realize how much space there is In between the deck and the top of the plenum but I feel any sort of spacer helps to allow a better flow curve into the middle... that's my first thought why I designed mine in the first place..

Anyway, good upgrade in my eyes..

------------------

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-05-2016).]

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Report this Post11-05-2016 01:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

I've designed and had a friend CNC mine out of alunimum...


How thick are yours?

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Report this Post11-05-2016 02:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

How thick are yours?


1/2"---'just enough.. Damnit!! Giving out all my secrets!
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Report this Post11-05-2016 02:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

1/2"---'just enough.. Damnit!! Giving out all my secrets!


Heh heh... thanks.

If there is indeed up to 2.5" of room to raise the upper intake manifold without anything hitting the underside of the decklid, I'd probably want my spacers to be an inch thick minimum.
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fieromadman
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Report this Post11-05-2016 07:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieromadmanClick Here to visit fieromadman's HomePageClick Here to Email fieromadmanSend a Private Message to fieromadmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For 124.75 a set (including everything again, shipped in the lower 48) I could make them 1.125 thick.

I'd like someone with a notchback to measure clearence also.

And a consensus of what the text should say.
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Report this Post11-05-2016 08:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero 88Click Here to Email Fiero 88Send a Private Message to Fiero 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:


And I just measured my 85 SE V6 w/ 86-88 GT rear bodywork and I had stuff stacked up 2.5" and could still close the lid......


I used a similarly scientific stacking method ( ) and I could only safely close about 1.5" or so until the back edge (closest to trunk, not firewall) would touch a little. That is with an 86 SE V6 (notchie) and everything out back being stock. For my application though, I have no issue with cutting the deck lid and molding a scoop on top to make clearance for larger spacers.

------------------
Past:
1988 base coupe sold
1984 base coupe rust
Present:
1986 SE 2m6

[This message has been edited by Fiero 88 (edited 11-05-2016).]

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cvxjet
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Report this Post11-05-2016 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My 85 SE V6 that I measured 2.5" on has the >86-88 GT< bodywork on it....The "fastback" w/sailpanels style.

As for the Cold air/insulation thing; Cold air = Denser air= more air in the cylinder= more power.......I tested my old Comet GT......It had a air duct from the radiator surround to the intake....The big thing back then(Late 70s) was to flip the air-cleaner lid so air could come in all around the rim- but this would obviously negate the benefit of COLD air ducted in from in front of the radiator....My car felt faster with the lid properly mounted- taking in the colder air rather than hot underhood air. Actually discussed that with some friends- didn't believe me, so did it again and they agreed. And the EGR will contribute some heat- when it's in operation- But every little bit (of cooling) tends to help....

I am moving the trunk fan to the pass' side (Added) IMSA scoop and then plan on ducting the air over to the ignition....Could run the duct right under the plenum, thereby helping to cool it more.....
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Report this Post11-06-2016 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

My 85 SE V6 that I measured 2.5" on has the >86-88 GT< bodywork on it....The "fastback" w/sailpanels style.


Ah, sorry... the part about the 86-88 GT fastback bodywork swapped onto your '85 didn't sink in the first time you posted it.

 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

As for the Cold air/insulation thing; Cold air = Denser air= more air in the cylinder= more power.... And the EGR will contribute some heat- when it's in operation...


I don't disagree with your cold/denser air comments, but I suspect you underestimate how hot the upper intake manifold gets from exhaust gases being sent through the EGR tube during normal EGR operation. I discovered this when I unplugged the EGR passage in my Formula's upper intake (as reported Here). Before I unplugged this passage, the upper intake never really got all that warm... compared to how it is now with the EGR passage unplugged. The upper intake manifold now gets rather hot. I believe this demonstrates that a large amount of heat is not being transferred up from the engine/middle intake manifold... and that's why I've suggested that spacers between the upper and middle intake manifolds would make little difference with helping to keep the upper intake cool. IMO, deleting the EGR system would make a heck of a lot more difference with upper intake temperatures than using manifold spacers, but doing so could of course lead to other issues.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-06-2016).]

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Report this Post11-06-2016 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To help with the heat issue on mine I've taken an 84 decklid vent and incorporated it into my 88.. Now I have vents all the way across the back. Even though it doesn't rain here much and I avoid it when driving this car, I designed a rain gutter system that'll dump into the existing frame rail of the lid and then out factory drip holes. Worked out perfect.. The drip pan is now flat black and I have gloss black for the louvers... It has an over lap for runoff and roughly 1/8" gapping to allow the heat escape.. I will say, though, I've never been in rain with it.. In theory, I think it'll work!

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-06-2016).]

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Report this Post11-06-2016 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Funny story; I never minded the EGR on most carbed engines because it fit under the carb and was basically hidden by the air cleaner...But the Fiero's sticks out like a sore thumb.....I bought a 99 Firebird Formula....The Corvettes didn't have an EGR on their LS1s....So I get it home and pop the hood.....there is an EGR valve sticking up like a...sore thumb...A few years later the F-bodies LS1s eliminated it, but mine had it....Maybe they could have installed a flashing red light on it like the electrical towers...Geeezzz!

I can't eliminate the EGR because I get tested here in CA every two years.......

And Unbound, I had been thinking of that Magnesium vent from the 84s....and a drip tray...Very well done- where in CA are you, if you don't mind me asking? I'd like to see that some time.
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Report this Post11-06-2016 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cvxjet-- Socal.. Outside LA areas

And for me.. I did the Fiero store dress up kit for the EGR, map, oil cap and thermostat.. They look nice
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Report this Post11-06-2016 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DandRautoSend a Private Message to DandRautoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll be another customer.
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Report this Post11-07-2016 09:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

To help with the heat issue on mine I've taken an 84 decklid vent and incorporated it into my 88.. Now I have vents all the way across the back. Even though it doesn't rain here much and I avoid it when driving this car, I designed a rain gutter system that'll dump into the existing frame rail of the lid and then out factory drip holes. Worked out perfect.. The drip pan is now flat black and I have gloss black for the louvers... It has an over lap for runoff and roughly 1/8" gapping to allow the heat escape.. I will say, though, I've never been in rain with it.. In theory, I think it'll work!





Sweet, have pics of the "guts" of it?
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Report this Post11-07-2016 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:


Damnit!! Giving out all my secrets!



I don't want to jack the thread :| ---

-just kidding... The spacers are a great idea!..... But also, I don't have a finished picture yet of the underside of the decklid. I'd like to paint everything before I show.... In the works now but wet sanding some other stuff before I start. I'd say couple weeks..

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-07-2016).]

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fieromadman
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Report this Post11-09-2016 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieromadmanClick Here to visit fieromadman's HomePageClick Here to Email fieromadmanSend a Private Message to fieromadmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Alright, since I have a couple people that are definitely interested I think I'm going to go ahead with this. I'm thinking they will be 1" thick so we for sure don't have any clearence issues. I'm going to need to procure a few things before I can make them. I'll Keep you all up to date.

Btw, still looking for input on the text to be engraved.
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Report this Post11-09-2016 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Please make some that are not engraved -------- I'd prefer mine polished!
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Report this Post11-09-2016 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero 88Click Here to Email Fiero 88Send a Private Message to Fiero 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:

Please make some that are not engraved


This is how I would prefer them as well.

------------------
Past:
1988 base coupe sold
1984 base coupe rust
Present:
1986 SE 2m6

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Report this Post11-09-2016 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah actually (brushed aluminum ?) like the top of the plenum and valvecovers would be best.
If someone wanted lettering they could use a decal.
Or maybe you can engrave as one offs?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-09-2016).]

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Report this Post11-09-2016 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think that each set could be made with one engraved and one not....You're never going to see the one on the front side of the engine anyway....So, when you install yours, just choose if you want it to say "Fiero"/"3.4"/whatever, or say nothing.

I will say that it would be nice to be able to choose the different engraving....But number one is to just get 'em done.....Something is better than nothing....
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Report this Post11-09-2016 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

I think that each set could be made with one engraved and one not....You're never going to see the one on the front side of the engine anyway....So, when you install yours, just choose if you want it to say "Fiero"/"3.4"/whatever, or say nothing.

I will say that it would be nice to be able to choose the different engraving....But number one is to just get 'em done.....Something is better than nothing....


The ones I made for myself are not interchangeable... But I don't know about these here
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Report this Post11-09-2016 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

The ones I made for myself are not interchangeable...


That's odd... what would prevent them from being swapped over from one side to the other, like can be done with the gaskets?
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unboundmo
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Report this Post11-10-2016 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for unboundmoClick Here to Email unboundmoSend a Private Message to unboundmoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by unboundmo:


Damnit!! Giving out all my secrets!


that one I'll keep 🙂


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Patrick
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Report this Post11-10-2016 12:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

that one I'll keep


Got something plumbed into each individual runner of the two intake spacers?

Come on, out with it. Don't make me read all your old posts!

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-10-2016).]

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fieromadman
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Report this Post11-10-2016 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieromadmanClick Here to visit fieromadman's HomePageClick Here to Email fieromadmanSend a Private Message to fieromadmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I missed the fact that raising the upper intake manifold will require a work around for the EGR tube. How do we feel about block off plates versus spacers?

Btw, the price may need to change to account for this...
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2.5
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Report this Post11-10-2016 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If interchangeable yeah, thatd be cool could just choose to put the smooth one up front or back.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-10-2016).]

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fieromadman
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Report this Post11-10-2016 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieromadmanClick Here to visit fieromadman's HomePageClick Here to Email fieromadmanSend a Private Message to fieromadmanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Also, in terms of vacuum lines I know there is at least the one under the manifold by the egr. Is that line flexible enough to deal with a 1" lift? Going to need help on this one, again no Fiero here!
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Report this Post11-10-2016 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I prefer to run the EGR for mpg reasons. It would reduce your sales if block off plate was the only option, due to people who are inspected / emissions tested, or want to keep it functional. You could offer both.
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Fiero 88
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Report this Post11-10-2016 09:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero 88Click Here to Email Fiero 88Send a Private Message to Fiero 88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Indifferent here as I'm not in an inspection state, however I do have the nice braided EGR tube from the FS. I have not had experience with the vacuum lines so hopefully someone else chimes in on that, though it's another "to do" list item as my idle is rather high. Might as well replace them all if the manifold is off.

------------------
Past:
1988 base coupe sold
1984 base coupe rust
Present:
1986 SE 2m6

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