Why would anyone when embarking upon an engine swap which entails a large expenditure of cash use any chassis but the 88? I consider the 88 to be self-evidently so superior that the initial difference in money between an 88 or pre-88 is insignificant. So why not start with an 88?
I have been looking to purchase a swap for a while and have found myself consciously devaluing a vehicle that is not an 88. I judge this to be 25% to 40% in my mind.
... the initial difference in money between an 88 or pre-88 is insignificant. ... consciously devaluing a vehicle that is not an 88 ... 25% to 40% in my mind.
Aren't you saying 2 different things here?? 40% is not an insignificant difference.
Why would anyone when embarking upon an engine swap which entails a large expenditure of cash use any chassis but the 88? I consider the 88 to be self-evidently so superior that the initial difference in money between an 88 or pre-88 is insignificant. So why not start with an 88?
I have been looking to purchase a swap for a while and have found myself consciously devaluing a vehicle that is not an 88. I judge this to be 25% to 40% in my mind.
I waited for 2 years until I found the 88 I wanted. But having had an 85 gt and an 88 gt I think the 85 felt more planted the 88 is quicker but it feels skittish. Make a plan and don't budge till you find what you want. I bought the 88 primarily for the upgraded suspension leaving no need for any swaps. Now if I found a ultra low mile 85gt that was cheaper than the 88 I probabuy would have bought it.
Heres my 2/cents worth.....lol Having both 3 88's and two pre 88's. All three 88's are formulas. As far as ride and drivability.....stock for stock, I would make the 88 my first choice. Ride is much better, none of the bumpsteer issues.....etc. As far as performance, well there is a lot more available for the pre 88 cars. Much more suspension upgrades. Our 86/SE has the Fiero store #2 banking package. And is a stock v6 4 speed otherwise. Your butthole will run out of pucker before that car runs out of stick. But the eibachs make for a very harsh ride. The 88's in my opinion are a better car as far as stock for stock. If you are looking to build a toy, and don't care about your kidneys. There is a lot more available to do to a pre 88. That's the one advantage they have. Just my 2/cents worth Brian
There is a pretty significant market bias... an 88 modified car will typically sell for more than a pre 88 modified fiero. Part of this is there are people like me who simply won't buy an 84-87 even if its a great car...
There are very few Automoda convertibles... but 2 have sold in the last couple of months.
The exact sale price for both of these cars is unknown, but the 84 likely sold for 50% of the price of the 88. Lots of factors go into the sold prices... but for me, I thought long and hard about buying the 84, I just couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of money for a non-88. Had it been an 88 at that price, it would not have gone unsold more than a week.
I'm another person here who has multiple Fieros ('84, '86, '87, '88) and who would NOT pay a large premium for an '88 over an earlier model in the same condition.
If I had the choice of an '88 over an earlier year in the same condition for the same price, then it's a no brainer. Better suspension, better brakes, better engine (2.8) lubrication.
Why would anyone when embarking upon an engine swap which entails a large expenditure of cash use any chassis but the 88? I consider the 88 to be self-evidently so superior that the initial difference in money between an 88 or pre-88 is insignificant. So why not start with an 88?
I have been looking to purchase a swap for a while and have found myself consciously devaluing a vehicle that is not an 88. I judge this to be 25% to 40% in my mind.
Consider also, because the 88 is unique in it's suspension, parts availability for that suspension is more limited to the point that front wheel bearings are becoming more difficult to get, at least to get of decent quality. So your going to pay more for a car that's going to become harder and harder to find parts for over a car slightly older that shares so many parts with other models that parts will continue to be more available.
What I don't understand is why anyone in California would want to get a Fiero and do an engine swap? With all the limiting regulations they have there some of the more popular swaps become less attractive as they can not be done with a manual transmission without winning the special permit lottery.
See what I did there? Completely dismissing a group based off some personal view point? That group being Fiero owners in California as opposed to other states? Kinda like dismissing any pre 88 Fiero as viable for a swap, only dismissing those who live in a certain place instead?
** To all the Fiero owners in California, the sentiment expressed above is purely rhetorical. I do not dismiss your desire to own and modify a Fiero however you want. **
Edit: Oh, not to mention that there was close to 344,000 84-87 Fiero's made and only around 27,000 88's... Not even 1/10th of the Fiero's produced were 88's.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-21-2015).]
I also have four vehicles with engine swaps. Two of them are 87s and two are 88s. I am happy with what I have done on each vehicle and do not regret purchasing and modifying the two 1987 cars. All of my cars are Meras so this may be a bit different than owning a standard Fiero but I did not discriminate when purchase time arrived.
Nelson
[This message has been edited by hnthomps (edited 09-21-2015).]
Consider also, because the 88 is unique in it's suspension, parts availability for that suspension is more limited to the point that front wheel bearings are becoming more difficult to get, at least to get of decent quality. So your going to pay more for a car that's going to become harder and harder to find parts for over a car slightly older that shares so many parts with other models that parts will continue to be more available.
What I don't understand is why anyone in California would want to get a Fiero and do an engine swap? With all the limiting regulations they have there some of the more popular swaps become less attractive as they can not be done with a manual transmission without winning the special permit lottery.
See what I did there? Completely dismissing a group based off some personal view point? That group being Fiero owners in California as opposed to other states? Kinda like dismissing any pre 88 Fiero as viable for a swap, only dismissing those who live in a certain place instead?
** To all the Fiero owners in California, the sentiment expressed above is purely rhetorical. I do not dismiss your desire to own and modify a Fiero however you want. **
Edit: Oh, not to mention that there was close to 344,000 84-87 Fiero's made and only around 27,000 88's... Not even 1/10th of the Fiero's produced were 88's.
It's whatever floats your boat. I wanted a southern California car pure for the no rust. If you like them rusty then there's plenty of them around and I probably won't swap this car. Going to find another southern California car preferably with a blown motor to.
I have put a lot of time and money into my 86 GT. Upgrading the brakes, suspension, paint, interior and many, MANY other things over the past few years. I am now planning to put a 3800SC into it in the next year or two down the road to upgrade its performance further. I am certainly not going to ditch all the work that I have put into this car to start all over with an 88.
I have put a lot of time and money into my 86 GT. Upgrading the brakes, suspension, paint, interior and many, MANY other things over the past few years. I am now planning to put a 3800SC into it in the next year or two down the road to upgrade its performance further. I am certainly not going to ditch all the work that I have put into this car to start all over with an 88.
It's symantics. No one outside of a fiero expert could even tell the difference between the gts. I love the look of the 84 just as much as the other years. I still don't know what the suspension looks like on my 88. I just hope they all find a home.
My first was an 88gt. After the bearings spun and a few years down the road i found an 86gt with 55k miles. Had it been an 88 it would have easily cost an extra 50%. Ive put fiero store sway bars and i like it as much if not more than the 88 i had originally. Granted, if i find my old 88 again and it hasnt been parted out, id probably buy to restore
It's whatever floats your boat. I wanted a southern California car pure for the no rust. If you like them rusty then there's plenty of them around and I probably won't swap this car. Going to find another southern California car preferably with a blown motor to.
I wasn't talking about rust. I agree a So. Cal. car is a good option when looking for less rust. I was talking about Fiero owners IN California wanting to do a swap with all the smog regulations they have and the hassle to get it signed off, not to mention the lottery to get the special permit to have a manual if the engine your using was not mated to a manual in whatever vehicle it was sold in. For example, the 3800 series was only sold mated to automatics. You can't do a 3800 with manual trans in California without getting one of the 500 special modified vehicle permits issued each year.
Originally posted by Khw: I wasn't talking about rust. I agree a So. Cal. car is a good option when looking for less rust. I was talking about Fiero owners IN California wanting to do a swap with all the smog regulations they have and the hassle to get it signed off, not to mention the lottery to get the special permit to have a manual if the engine your using was not mated to a manual in whatever vehicle it was sold in. For example, the 3800 series was only sold mated to automatics. You can't do a 3800 with manual trans in California without getting one of the 500 special modified vehicle permits issued each year.
The 3800 SC only came mated to automatics. The 3800 N/A did come in some cars with a manual, in the US. If the N/A F-body blocks have no distinguishing identifiers, you could probably get an L67 with N/A top-end through. If the blocks do have identifying stamps that get checked for, you could swap the L67 parts into an N/A F-body block, and go from there. Probably not really worth all the trouble at that point, though.
I think WCF also has CARB approval for some 3800 setups these days, which would make the process easier, but not sure how reliable WCF is.
I wasn't talking about rust. I agree a So. Cal. car is a good option when looking for less rust. I was talking about Fiero owners IN California wanting to do a swap with all the smog regulations they have and the hassle to get it signed off, not to mention the lottery to get the special permit to have a manual if the engine your using was not mated to a manual in whatever vehicle it was sold in. For example, the 3800 series was only sold mated to automatics. You can't do a 3800 with manual trans in California without getting one of the 500 special modified vehicle permits issued each year.
That's why you title it in Nevada or arizona. Sothern california is the only option for a rust free car.
Originally posted by ICouldaBeenAV8: Why would anyone when embarking upon an engine swap which entails a large expenditure of cash use any chassis but the 88?
The 84-87's have a little more room in the engine compartment (the strut towers are a little farther apart). And the 84-87 cradle is a bit stronger than the 88 cradle.
And isn't it strange that the original poster in this thread is nowhere to be seen?
[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 09-22-2015).]
You can make an 84-87 suspension better than an 88 without too much trouble via the Held/Arraunt kits. Even if you don't go that far you can get comparable performance just with springs, shocks, and bushings. I thought the same thing for a while, but now I have an 87 because I realized the value I was placing on the 88 just wasn't warranted.
The 84-87's have a little more room in the engine compartment (the strut towers are a little farther apart). And the 84-87 cradle is a bit stronger than the 88 cradle.
And isn't it strange that the original poster in this thread is nowhere to be seen?
Dag Nabit now I got to sell my 88 to get that stronger engine cradle.
agreed. I've had an 86 and now i have an 88, but i dont think the differences are worth 25%-40% of the cars value
I've noticed on ebay that very low mileage or pristine examples of 88s and pre88s sell for large differences in price and usually the pre88 owners set a much lower initial bid or lower buy it now. When selling Fieros that are thrashers, near thrashers, or well used the prices seem to be much closer together. My point is that in picking a car to modify, when looking at the used end of the spectrum the prices are close so why wouldn't you pick pick an 88? The premium you pay is small compared to your total investment in swapping engines and when you inevitably sell the modified car, the additional money you receive for an 88 is much larger then that initial premium you paid for the 88.
Meanwhile, when I saw the post on the number of cars produced (pre88 vs.88), it dawned on me that most people modify the car they have and more people have pre88s. Question answered.
[This message has been edited by ICouldaBeenAV8 (edited 09-22-2015).]
What I had planned to do to my project (bigger brakes, etc), there was no point in paying the extra perceived value for buying an 88. It was better to buy a cheaper car and put that extra money into the mods.
For the record I also own a 88GT and didn't think there is any advantage of it over the 86 when I got it on the road before any major mods (slalomed both). IMHO some people just put the 88 too high on a pedestal.
Originally posted by ICouldaBeenAV8: I've noticed on ebay that very low mileage or pristine examples of 88s and pre88s sell for large differences in price and usually the pre88 owners set a much lower initial bid or lower buy it now. When selling Fieros that are thrashers, near thrashers, or well used the prices seem to be much closer together. My point is that in picking a car to modify, when looking at the used end of the spectrum the prices are close so why wouldn't you pick pick an 88? The premium you pay is small compared to your total investment in swapping engines and when you inevitably sell the modified car, the additional money you receive for an 88 is much larger then that initial premium you paid for the 88.
Meanwhile, when I saw the post on the number of cars produced (pre88 vs.88), it dawned on me that most people modify the car they have and more people have pre88s. Question answered.
Supply, demand, and sometimes overinflated value on 88s. It was the last year, and all 88s comprise less than 10% of all Fieros made from 84-88.
There are plenty of reasons not to get an 88, and plenty of reasons to get an 88. You're going to pay a premium for 88-only parts too, so it's not just the initial cost of the car that is a difference.
I wasn't talking about rust. I agree a So. Cal. car is a good option when looking for less rust. I was talking about Fiero owners IN California wanting to do a swap with all the smog regulations they have and the hassle to get it signed off, not to mention the lottery to get the special permit to have a manual if the engine your using was not mated to a manual in whatever vehicle it was sold in. For example, the 3800 series was only sold mated to automatics. You can't do a 3800 with manual trans in California without getting one of the 500 special modified vehicle permits issued each year.
So do a high-value V6 (Pontiac G6), a small block (name your donor), an LS-series (name your donor), an Ecotec (name your donor), an LQ, or a Quad-4. It's not that hard. Only *one* swap - the 3800 - is difficult. Just about every other GM motor came in a manual at some point or another, in some configuration or another.
I don't know what the obsession is with, "ZOMG, California is SOOOO hard" around here. It's not.
So do a high-value V6 (Pontiac G6), a small block (name your donor), an LS-series (name your donor), an Ecotec (name your donor), an LQ, or a Quad-4. It's not that hard. Only *one* swap - the 3800 - is difficult. Just about every other GM motor came in a manual at some point or another, in some configuration or another.
I don't know what the obsession is with, "ZOMG, California is SOOOO hard" around here. It's not.
The only thing keeping me out of California is the taxes. Other than that the car culture is amazing as well as the customizers.
The pay is commensurate with the living costs in most areas. I could move, do my job elsewhere, pay less taxes, and take a 20-30% pay cut. What's the point in that?
I sold my first Fiero, an '85 GT that I bought new, because I hated the steering kickback, even with the damper that GM installed. There may have been a remedy for it that I didn't know about, since Al Gore hadn't yet invented the internet. But, nevertheless, it got gone. My next (2nd) Fiero was an '88, which I purchased in '97. I've never looked back.
I did end up with the previously mentioned '84 Automoda (since sold) only because I would have been stupid to turn it down, for the price. It was a minor mess when I got it, and pretty much right, when I sold it, but I hated working on that car. It was just different enough from an '88 to make it a pain in the azz. (If I had actually sought out the car, it may have been a different story.) That's aside from the fact that all my spare parts were for '88s. Would I buy an earlier car again? Only with the intention of swapping in an 88 rear cradle, and probably power steering, to mask the steering kickback. (To be fair, power steering is one of my planned upgrades to my existing '88, just for the quicker ratios available. Having an earlier car would just make it more of a priority.) But then the earlier brakes and other stuff still seem to be more difficult to upgrade. I could be wrong about that, though. I haven't really had any experience with them.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-22-2015).]
I say a 88 formula with a vin 9 northstar, and a kit from chr fab for turbo, rouugly 7 psi......F40 6 speed.........now that's a swap for a Fiero.......580hp/590 torque in a less than 3000 pound mid engine car.......ummmmmm. The trouble I could get in to......or the people I could piss off........lmao I already have avin 9 northstar......have two formula's....... Now to come up with the rest............. Brian
[This message has been edited by bkw88 (edited 09-22-2015).]
The pay is commensurate with the living costs in most areas. I could move, do my job elsewhere, pay less taxes, and take a 20-30% pay cut. What's the point in that?
By adding a rear sway bar, some quality shocks and struts, the pre-88 Fieros will handle just as well as the 88. You might notice a small difference if you are road racing but not for drag racing or everyday driving. IMO, the higher price is not justified for what you get and you also pay far more for 88 suspension parts.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
A long time ago when I joined this forum it was the go to Fiero forum. If the forum has degenerated to the point were it's acceptable to put down one year Fiero in favour of another perhaps it is losing it's lustre. For sure it's immaturity is showing. I watched Blooseberry leave, with great regret, however, I do now understand.
A long time ago when I joined this forum it was the go to Fiero forum. If the forum has degenerated to the point were it's acceptable to put down one year Fiero in favour of another perhaps it is losing it's lustre. For sure it's immaturity is showing. I watched Blooseberry leave, with great regret, however, I do now understand.
The pay is commensurate with the living costs in most areas. I could move, do my job elsewhere, pay less taxes, and take a 20-30% pay cut. What's the point in that?
I guess if you say so. I moved away from California and what I make here is the same as what I made there. Lower taxes here and the cost of living is much lower for a higher quality of life. The townhouse we rent in a suburb, one that MSN rated in it's top 10 suburbs several years back, is 1/3rd the cost of a similar townhouse in a similar suburb in California. That right there means I get to keep another $1400 of the money I earn for other things. This isn't really the place to talk about all that though as the whole "living in California swap thing" was as I said, rhetorical. I wasn't presenting it as something I actually believe.
(BTW, I spent over half my life living in SoCal. Yucaipa, CA. in San Bernardino County to be exact.)
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-22-2015).]
The only thing keeping me out of California is the taxes. Other than that the car culture is amazing as well as the customizers.
I agree. Car customizing is pretty amazing in Cali. It's something I witnessed first hand back in the 80's when I got my license to drive. Some friends had older 60's muscle cars, others had lifted 4 X 4 trucks and then there was the culture I went to with my lowered mini-truck. There was even some who would lower and customize cars like the Nissan Sentra and the Ford Escort back then. I had friends in all of those groups, closest friend with a 82 4 X 4 Toyota with a suspension and body lift along with 36" Super Swamper tires, so I appreciate just about all of it except maybe the hydraulic hoping cars... My parents still live in Cali, which we will be going back to visit this winter, and my Dad D.J.'s for car shows as well as showing his 72 Chevelle a 60 something Ford truck there. Heck, my Dad taught me to weld so I could do a box notch on my mini-truck and lower the rear some more. Funny when I compare Cali to here as far as cars go. Here they do a "smog check" and a "safety inspection". In Cali all they ever did was a "smog check". A person could drive a car that's about to have it's bumpers fall off with a broken e-brake and loose tie rod ends in Cali as long as it passed smog. Here? Not a chance.
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