Did I mention that I like the gauges? Nice job on those too.
You're going to like the 88 cradle, but I can sympathize with you on dropping the cradle again. You may have to wait a while, and let the memory of what a PITA it is fade a bit.
That's kind of how I handle my cradle drops.
Edit - Page 5 ownage!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-17-2011).]
Did I mention that I like the gauges? Nice job on those too.
You're going to like the 88 cradle, but I can sympathize with you on dropping the cradle again. You may have to wait a while, and let the memory of what a PITA it is fade a bit.
That's kind of how I handle my cradle drops.
Edit - Page 5 ownage!
Thanks! Those are speed-hut gauges, and with the exception of the fuel gauge, they all work great and are much much more accurate then stock 25 year old gauges. I got them for a great price used on eBay.
I just have to think of all the reasons why I'm dropping it again, which includes I'm trading my current cradle for a snapper riding lawn mower.
I just have to think of all the reasons why I'm dropping it again, which includes I'm trading my current cradle for a snapper riding lawn mower.
That's how I do it. The more things I have to do on a drop the more inclined to actually start it. Just wait to you're where I am. I've done 14 cradle drops on mine over the last few years. I could use another one but I'm waiting for the list to grow a little larger first.
That's how I do it. The more things I have to do on a drop the more inclined to actually start it. Just wait to you're where I am. I've done 14 cradle drops on mine over the last few years. I could use another one but I'm waiting for the list to grow a little larger first.
Nice vid Matt. Sounds healthy for sure.
14?! Wow, and I thought I had a lot racked up. This is going to be #5 for my car, #7 in general, soon to be 9 the way things are looking around here.
Car's looking great, Matt. But the video isn't working for me. I get a Photobucket exception message.
+1 no video worky lol. I travel alot Matt and I check the forum out alot with my Droid x2 so that might be the problem. YouTube is the way to go for videos unless you toss a couple of naked chicks in there lol.
Made my coil-over's today. 7in adjusters, QA1 12" 300lb springs, and Monroe struts. The top plate is just there to hold it all together for now. While I was at it i shortened the rear sway bar end links 3/4" because they are just too long.
Also bought 1ft X 1ft 3/16" steel plate for my strut adapters.
Dropped my cradle today, and got my 4.9/4T60e sitting on the 88 cradle. Old cradle is gone and has been traded for a riding lawn mower. Started making the strut adapter plates, too.
Dropped my cradle today, and got my 4.9/4T60e sitting on the 88 cradle. Old cradle is gone and has been traded for a riding lawn mower. Started making the strut adapter plates, too.
LOL. Damn, Matt. You didn't waste any time, did ya? It was great seeing that car on the road again this past weekend, and having it sit in my driveway. It made our Fieros jealous of hearing something with a little more performance in it. But, after talking up our blue '85 this weekend about how reliable it is, I now am having starting issues. I'm only getting 9V at the switched pole of the starter solenoid, and after tracing the wiring, I'm losing the voltage inside the car somewhere, so I now get to tear the interior apart to find the gremilin.
LOL. Damn, Matt. You didn't waste any time, did ya? It was great seeing that car on the road again this past weekend, and having it sit in my driveway. It made our Fieros jealous of hearing something with a little more performance in it. But, after talking up our blue '85 this weekend about how reliable it is, I now am having starting issues. I'm only getting 9V at the switched pole of the starter solenoid, and after tracing the wiring, I'm losing the voltage inside the car somewhere, so I now get to tear the interior apart to find the gremilin.
Darn, we jinxed it. Sorry to hear that. Being a manual, If it is still connected I would check the clutch switch on the clutch pedal. Thanks for the complements.
Just for the record even though most know about it (myself included), there is alot less room inside the 88 cradle compared to a pre-88 cradle. I have about 1/2" of space left between the passenger side cradle "rail" and the motor mount bracket, and the transmission side pan/cover is hitting the driver's side cradle "rail.
EDIT: BTW, I found out my thermostat was stuck open. That and my "coolant" looked like muddy pond water.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-27-2011).]
I'll be "stalking" this thread with great interest now. I was talking to my dad today and he's on board for a 4.9. I just have to pay for it all. lol
I'll take some pictures of it on the cradle and such tomorrow.
Also today I got my new fire extinguisher in the mail, it's a 2.5lb Kiddie extinguisher, on the cheap side, but it's better then nothing, that's for sure.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-27-2011).]
Made my coil-over's today. 7in adjusters, QA1 12" 300lb springs, and Monroe struts. The top plate is just there to hold it all together for now. While I was at it i shortened the rear sway bar end links 3/4" because they are just too long.
Also bought 1ft X 1ft 3/16" steel plate for my strut adapters.
Alright, I have lots of pictures for those who are interested in doing this swap and show my progress. It doesn't look the greatest because I threw all the loose stuff on the top for most of the pictures. Normally I don't do this type of detailed pictures because it makes my stuff look like crap with the flash, but It's for those who want to do this someday (aka N3M3S1S )
Rear transmission clearance and bracket. It looks like I'm using the original mount slots in this case, with the pre-88 cradle I had to move the mount over, but mounting is usually different for every swap.
Dog bone I made today with an extra 88 link, better then nothing! Still need to move the engine up a tad to get the top bolt to line up.
Main engine mount, need to modify it to work were I have the poly mounted on the 88 cradle. but only slightly. I may be able to get it to work without any cutting of the bracket, but it depends on how much slack everything gives me.
2nd engine mount, version 2.0!! This is one of the reasons I dropped the cradle. This thing was welded SOLID, the engine will shatter before this does.
Belt routing, still on the fence about keeping the A/C or not. I think I will, but both the compressor and lines have been left open for a while now, don't know if it will work.
Installed correct firewall side valve cover for clearance of decklid torsion bar box. Also redid the PCV routing, much better now.
My adapter plates.
Exhaust system I built myself, short=loud.
Top of engine, so you can see the routing of things.
Just a note on the engine front mount (by the A/C) - the mount is reinforced by a brace that runs from the hole on the mount to the exhaust bottom stud directly above the mount. The stock brace is made of steel tube with flattened ends.
If you don't use this brace the mount will put a lot of force on the right-hand mount bolt, possibly causing a fracture of the cast boss.
Saw Matt's Fiero at Carlisle and he did a nice job on this swap. Matt is also a nice guy and kind enough to share info on his swap with others as he does here. In the past I've met some as*holes at Carlisle that won't share info and I could never understand why. I guess they don't want to share their closely guarded "secrets".Thankfully these people no longer attend and one guy that I know of sold his Fiero just this year..
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Got all five mounts bolted down today, two transmission, two engine, and the "dogbone". I see no way for this thing to move now. Axles line up ok, not perfect but then again it was that way with the first cradle. Got my exhaust mocked up, ordered some bolts and springs for it, and I'll be getting them tomorrow. Still don't know what to do about the A/C, as I don't want to spend alot of time and money trying to get it too work, because it most likely will require that, being that I left both the compressor and lines open for a good while now, but working A/C would be nice for highway trips. At the same time if I'm not going to get it working I want to remove most of the A/C stuff to rid of un-needed weight. Plus the A/C compressor is pretty much touching the rubber coolant line.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-30-2011).]
The front is next, though I don't know when I'll be able to get to it. Don't want to do it now as I really would like my Fiero to make it to Frazee, and idk about after that.
Well I successfully got the cradle in the car today, and got it running. Runs great, just like it did, with one exception. It doesn't move at ALL! When I revved it with the other cradle, it flopped every which way and smacked into things. Now it doesn't even move an inch, and with 5 mounts now I would hope so. I didn't do much to the 4.9 itself except an oil change and changing the back valve cover to the one with the oil fill cap, tons of room under that decklid mount box now. One thing I didn't do that I wanted too is change the final drive ratio. I think I'll change the diff to 3.33 ( which would make the overall ratio 2.97 compared to my current 2.73) and leave it at that for a while, but even that's later. I didn't do it because I just wanted it back in the car and running, and I knew the transmission worked and I didn't feel like ripping it all apart again. Installed a new thermostat, but the damn thing is leaking AGAIN. UGH. I reset it once, and that helped, but I think I still get a drip or two every few seconds. I noticed that the return rad hose seems to be rubbing on the belt/compressor even more now, so I think that answered my own question as if to keep A/C or not. Most likely just going to remove the compressor now and get a shorter belt. There is one thing I'm concerned about, and that's the fact that the driver's side axle looks compressed too much, and the passenger side looks extended or pulled out too much. Hope it'll be ok. The rear cradle bolts were also way too long, which normally wouldn't be an issues except a large portion is un-threaded. I couldn't find any hardened bolts around here in that size, so what I did was buy a crap ton of washers to take up the slack. works ok, i figured that would be better then using a shorter non-hardened bolt.
I also rough cutout the strut adapter plates. I did so much today, I can't even remember all of what I did. The later pictures are shaky because I was very tired, hungry, and filthy. All is good now.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 07-01-2011).]
Originally posted by mattwa: ...I noticed that the return rad hose seems to be rubbing on the belt/compressor even more now, so I think that answered my own question as if to keep A/C or not. Most likely just going to remove the compressor now and get a shorter belt. There is one thing I'm concerned about, and that's the fact that the driver's side axle looks compressed too much, and the passenger side looks extended or pulled out too much. Hope it'll be ok. The rear cradle bolts were also way too long, which normally wouldn't be an issues except a large portion is un-threaded. I couldn't find any hardened bolts around here in that size, so what I did was buy a crap ton of washers to take up the slack. works ok, i figured that would be better then using a shorter non-hardened bolt. ...
Okay... I didn't even think about this stuff until you mentioned it.
First, the coolant hose will rub on the compressor pulley unless it's tugged out of the way. I wrapped my hose in something similar to corrugated tubing, in the places where it's likely to get damaged. Specifically, where it exits the cradle and presses against the end of the trailing arm, and the middle, where the pulley is. I then took a long screw-drive hose clamp and threaded it around the front cradle mounting sleeve (where the bolt goes through, horizontally) and around the hose. I tightened up the clamp enough to pull it away from the pulley. (Remember, the hose is wrapped with plastic tubing to stop the clamp from cutting it.) Make sure that even with the clamp flattened out, it won't allow the hose to rub. After a while, the hose will "take a set" and won't exert as much pressure, but you still need the clamp.
The "axle" situation is probably as you perceive it. The holes for the tranny mounts (front and rear) were slotted nearly an inch to the right, when I had my 4T60E. This moved the entire engine/tranny about an inch to the right. I believe that this has been documented elsewhere, in threads about installing 4T60 and 4T60E trannies. They implied that some welding had to be done to the 88 cradle, but I didn't notice anything that didn't look factory, other than the elongated holes. Oh yeah... also where the rail was "massaged" for tranny pan clearance. You might think about reinforcing the front cradle rail where the tranny mount attaches. The metal is thin, and the mounts have been known to tear out, even with V6 engines.
The 88 rear cradle bolts are only about 2.5" to 3" long, since they bolt metal to metal, without a stack of rubber bushings. I believe they are the same thread as your longer bolts.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-02-2011).]
Another approach to the cooling line issue is to cut the hose and use a piece of an old under-car cooling line to modify the routing away from rub points. Be sure to use two clamps on the splice.
Okay... I didn't even think about this stuff until you mentioned it.
First, the coolant hose will rub on the compressor pulley unless it's tugged out of the way. I wrapped my hose in something similar to corrugated tubing, in the places where it's likely to get damaged. Specifically, where it exits the cradle and presses against the end of the trailing arm, and the middle, where the pulley is. I then took a long screw-drive hose clamp and threaded it around the front cradle mounting sleeve (where the bolt goes through, horizontally) and around the hose. I tightened up the clamp enough to pull it away from the pulley. (Remember, the hose is wrapped with plastic tubing to stop the clamp from cutting it.) Make sure that even with the clamp flattened out, it won't allow the hose to rub. After a while, the hose will "take a set" and won't exert as much pressure, but you still need the clamp.
The "axle" situation is probably as you perceive it. The holes for the tranny mounts (front and rear) were slotted nearly an inch to the right, when I had my 4T60E. This moved the entire engine/tranny about an inch to the right. I believe that this has been documented elsewhere, in threads about installing 4T60 and 4T60E trannies. They implied that some welding had to be done to the 88 cradle, but I didn't notice anything that didn't look factory, other than the elongated holes. Oh yeah... also where the rail was "massaged" for tranny pan clearance. You might think about reinforcing the front cradle rail where the tranny mount attaches. The metal is thin, and the mounts have been known to tear out, even with V6 engines.
The 88 rear cradle bolts are only about 2.5" to 3" long, since they bolt metal to metal, without a stack of rubber bushings. I believe they are the same thread as your longer bolts.
Raydar, that is the same thing you have to do with the pre-88 cradle with the 4-speed automatic, only it's much easier. I did drill new holes on the rear mount 1 3/8" to the right, and it moved it over too far. The really odd thing is, even though the axles looks off now, the engine/transmission is still in the same spot that it was before, I can tell because the O2 sensor lines up almost perfectly to the dent it made in the trunk wall sheet metal when the engine moved too much. Also, With the engine mounts being the way they are, there is no clearance for it to move the passenger side without cutting the engine mount and the 2nd engine mount wouldn't reach.
Yea I figured the 88 bolts were much shorter, but no place local has any bolts that large or thread size that are hardened.
Raydar, that is the same thing you have to do with the pre-88 cradle with the 4-speed automatic, only it's much easier. I did drill new holes on the rear mount 1 3/8" to the right, and it moved it over too far. The really odd thing is, even though the axles looks off now, the engine/transmission is still in the same spot that it was before, I can tell because the O2 sensor lines up almost perfectly to the dent it made in the trunk wall sheet metal when the engine moved too much. Also, With the engine mounts being the way they are, there is no clearance for it to move the passenger side without cutting the engine mount and the 2nd engine mount wouldn't reach.
The only thing that would make a difference in the axles, then, is if the knuckles placed the hubs in "different" places. (Like if the cradle was "tweaked".) Or if the tops of the struts were not located correctly. But that would be obvious, looking at the alignment. Is it possible that one of the axles isn't seated in the tranny correctly? Is it possible that one of them got "hyper-extended" during the disassembly, causing the rollers to not seat correctly in the tripot?
quote
Yea I figured the 88 bolts were much shorter, but no place local has any bolts that large or thread size that are hardened.
Let me check my bolt box.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-02-2011).]
Also, forgot to ask about a problem I have been having, over 65MPH the steering wheel/car shakes and gets worse the speed increases. What could the causes be?
Most likely. I didn't do much today with it since it was so hot and humid, I ground more off the plates but it's still not enough, I can see this is going to be a long process, grind grind grind, check fitment...nope, grind grind grind. Ugh.
Busy day for me, ground down the edges of the plates enough for them to fit, and I have them bolted to the strut towers, tomorrow I'm going to drill the holes for the strut with a large drill bit my parents are bringing me. I then looked at the hose/belt issue again, and I saw the belt cut a gash into my hose! So, I decided enough was enough, and took off the A/C compressor. Was lighter then I thought. Going to get a shorter belt tomorrow too. Since I figured my Fiero is never going to have A/C again, I went ahead and started removing more A/C components. I removed the drier in the front, and while I was there I decided, what the hell, I'll remove the evaporator while I'm at it, since I removed the fan resistor to see if there was any crap in there, and HOLY CRAP was that thing filled with leaves and dirt and just crap in general. I was surprised there was any airflow at all out my vents. I took it all apart (my poor hands...), removed the big evaporator and all the loose debris, and put it all back together. Wow, with both of those things removed, there is so much air flow coming from the vents now, its crazy! I think I'm going to pull off the A/C buttons so no one can use them.
Picture is without sunroof glass holder to show details, you can't see nearly as much with it on.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 07-03-2011).]
Worked on the car all day again today. Drilled the holes in the frame/plates, and installed the struts/coil-overs, this took most of the day by the time I got the tires on and adjusted the height of the coils. I then took it out for a test drive! Wow, what a difference. It is a bit stiffer back there, feels more solid for sure, but the biggest difference is the entire car just resonates like crazy in situations like your stopped but in gear (drive). With 5 mounts and solid mounted cradle, it's no wonder. It also started to overheat. Turns out I installed the thermostat backwards (that's the one thing I really dislike on the 4.9, is the stupid thermostat system/housing) again. Whoops. Flipped it around and it was doing the same thing? It was just short on coolant and had air bubbles, by the time I drove to the gas station and back it seemed to get most of the large air bubbles out. I also really need to bleed the rear brakes, the brakes really suck right now.
Here are the axle shots. Do you see a problem here or is it just me? It isn't horrible, and I don't think it will cause a huge issue, but still.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 07-04-2011).]
Congrats on getting it all screwed together. It looks great!
The right axle looks perfectly normal. The left axle looks like the middle shaft has slid to the right. The boot is puckered out on the hub side and compressed on the tranny side.
It's possible that the left stub axle (the one that goes through the hub) got hyper-extended, and is now not allowing the spider to seat completely in the sockets. If you can find a set of replacement clamps, and the clamping tool, it might pay you to take the outside boot off and examine everything. But then, it might be as simple as clamping a pair of vicegrips to the axle shaft and tugging it to the left.
Did you notice any unusual vibrations when the car was moving?
It could be just me, but I did feel some slight vibrations while on the short test drive(s) today. What you said makes sense, because I remember when removing my pre-88 cradle that after the 750 mile trip I went in my Fiero, there was a grease everywhere on that side, a big line of grease on the control arm, all over the side pan of the transmission, on the exhaust, tie rod, even the decklid. I didn't see any rips on either of the boots, so I'm not sure. There is that "dent" in the one boot, but no rips.
no video worky lol. I travel alot Matt and I check the forum out alot with my Droid x2 so that might be the problem. YouTube is the way to go for videos unless you toss a couple of naked chicks in there lol.
But, after talking up our blue '85 this weekend about how reliable it is, I now am having starting issues. I'm only getting 9V at the switched pole of the starter solenoid, and after tracing the wiring, I'm losing the voltage inside the car somewhere, so I now get to tear the interior apart to find the gremilin.
One thing I didn't do that I wanted too is change the final drive ratio. I think I'll change the diff to 3.33 ( which would make the overall ratio 2.97 compared to my current 2.73) and leave it at that for a while, but even that's later. I didn't do it because I just wanted it back in the car and running, and I knew the transmission worked and I didn't feel like ripping it all apart again. Installed a new thermostat, but the damn thing is leaking AGAIN. UGH. I reset it once, and that helped, but I think I still get a drip or two every few seconds. I noticed that the return rad hose seems to be rubbing on the belt/compressor even more now, so I think that answered my own question as if to keep A/C or not. Most likely just going to remove the compressor now and get a shorter belt. There is one thing I'm concerned about, and that's the fact that the driver's side axle looks compressed too much, and the passenger side looks extended or pulled out too much. Hope it'll be ok. The rear cradle bolts were also way too long, which normally wouldn't be an issues except a large portion is un-threaded. I couldn't find any hardened bolts around here in that size, so what I did was buy a crap ton of washers to take up the slack. works ok, i figured that would be better then using a shorter non-hardened bolt.
