all Abrams main battle tanks have been removed from Germany Secretary of catsup Kerry,s warning to Putin about his 150,000 troops backed up by 1000 tanks had no teeth Putin knows Obumbles is a sissy wimp,,but Obumbles has no morals & has sent a hundred Turbans,fez wearers to hell..I like unless the 173rd airborne brigade can stop 1000 rusian tanks we done b needs 2 marine divisions to grind under the tanks to stop them the world is such a fun place! killer atheist are every where ! been there done that !! the main purpose of the Abrams Tank was to fight in eastern Europe the main purpose of the Abrams Tank is to fight the Russian they were removed under protest of a few officers promtly fired ,busted , retired Obumbles has removed some of our best fighting men replaced with YES men Chief of staff GEN Pace removed for opposing Queers in the infantry Pace was the most famous removed !!none here gave a rodents skivvies stripe we may have to forget Muslamania for a while Obumbles may pull his frilly (I heart moslems ) panties up & forget the welfare & healthcare every loosotarian & democrap toasterhead needs & be a real president ? ..do not forget Obumbles clown parade,has brought your brand new Chinese Submarine nuclear missile FLEET offshore !!WOW! boys & girls a whole new problem beginning in feb & march right off the left coast of California to more quickly sent a nuclear Missile message right up Obumbles lying loose AH tract We paid for every missile ,every Submarine ,every Sub silo the Russians have the east coast ,,now the Chinese are patroling the west coast,,saving the Russkis a sack O Rubles & Hrynias to kill Ukrainians & Americans with NOT our WAR guess again,, as big a buffoon ,ignorant of foreign affair heknows the importance of Ukraine,, this Ukraine ?? is a mess of Obumbles creation
all Abrams main battle tanks have been removed from Germany Secretary of catsup Kerry,s warning to Putin about his 150,000 troops backed up by 1000 tanks had no teeth Putin knows Obumbles is a sissy wimp,,but Obumbles has no morals & has sent a hundred Turbans,fez wearers to hell..I like unless the 173rd airborne brigade can stop 1000 rusian tanks we done b needs 2 marine divisions to grind under the tanks to stop them the world is such a fun place! killer atheist are every where ! been there done that !! the main purpose of the Abrams Tank was to fight in eastern Europe the main purpose of the Abrams Tank is to fight the Russian they were removed under protest of a few officers promtly fired ,busted , retired Obumbles has removed some of our best fighting men replaced with YES men Chief of staff GEN Pace removed for opposing Queers in the infantry Pace was the most famous removed !!none here gave a rodents skivvies stripe we may have to forget Muslamania for a while Obumbles may pull his frilly (I heart moslems ) panties up & forget the welfare & healthcare every loosotarian & democrap toasterhead needs & be a real president ? ..do not forget Obumbles clown parade,has brought your brand new Chinese Submarine nuclear missile FLEET offshore !!WOW! boys & girls a whole new problem beginning in feb & march right off the left coast of California to more quickly sent a nuclear Missile message right up Obumbles lying loose AH tract We paid for every missile ,every Submarine ,every Sub silo the Russians have the east coast ,,now the Chinese are patroling the west coast,,saving the Russkis a sack O Rubles & Hrynias to kill Ukrainians & Americans with NOT our WAR guess again,, as big a buffoon ,ignorant of foreign affair heknows the importance of Ukraine,, this Ukraine ?? is a mess of Obumbles creation
This gave me a thought....remember how Nostradamus wrote in quatrains? What if Stan is seeing into the future? Only by a couple of nano-seconds, but still...
..50 Armed Russian activist stormed the Crimea Parliment building & other local goverment buildings & took down the Ukraine flag ,,& raised the russian flags.. this is in Simferopol ,Capitol of the Crimea Oblast ,about 60 miles from the big russian Naval base ,,people at the scene think the many of the men were military in civilian garb Local police were told to just so nothing,, the Russians say they are going to take the Crimea from Ukraine futher damaging the fragile Ukraine economy
this had been a disputed area ,but Russia gave up thier claim & turn over the Crimea to Ukraine in 1954,,but all atheist russians have been proven liars & back it up with the killing & genocide of 20,000,000 Ukrainians, many millions sent to concentration camp s & starved to death,THOUSANDS OF babies starved to death,, babies evicerated, gutted,,millions of children murdered in a genocide.. a real laugh ,, funny Right! hilarious !!
Russia KGB Putin wants the Ukraine for his new Russian Empire I CERTAINLY DO NOT WANT WAR IN UKRAINE ,I know the horror of war!! ..but thier are many atheist here who have no heart,, they laugh at genocide & the present suffering & reveal who they really are!!
what kind of heartless atheist scum are you to laugh at the suffering & death of a people who only want freedom?? you are all worthy supporters of Obumbles & Lenin
Funny you guys think this is a joke when the Russian atheist are doing thier thing again ,killing, murdering , the men who for no reason machine gun the Kiev crowd were ethnic Russians in the MVD!! & now the beating of hundreds of men & women bloody,people are being beaten in many cities ,,the Russian atheist are attacking people they think are Ukrainian or Ukraine sympathizers just a laugh riot for you
So..Ukraine can't handle a 50 man invasion of one of it's parliament buildings......?
It's ironic, that Kiev and it's inhabitants insist on autonomy and separation from Russia and expect the world to accept that, while they don't recognize that Crimea wants and expects Kiev and the world to stand by their wish to separate from Ukraine, or at least have some autonomy. According to their latest census, Crimea is populated with less than 25% Ukrainian, about 58% Russian, and +/- 12% Crimean Tatar.
while they don't recognize that Crimea wants and expects Kiev and the world to stand by their wish to separate from Ukraine, or at least have some autonomy.
I don't disagree with you. However, the Crimea is already now an autonomous republic within the Ukraine with it's own 100-seat parliament, the Supreme Council of Crimea.
Not very autonomous. Ukraine's parliament took it upon itself to remove Crimea's president and abolished that office altogether in 1995 and scrapped Crimea's constitution. That's equivilent to the US congress voting to abolish a state's constitution, throwing out it's duly elected governor and doing away with the office of governor for that particular state. That happened here during the Reconstruction Period immediately following our Civil War.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-27-2014).]
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10:39 AM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Hello, 29 tanks, is that It! Must be a diesel shortage, LOL.
For a long time, there was less and lighter armor than that on the Fulda Gap. One reconnaissance Brigade of the 11th armored Calvary Group was supposed to slow down the initial flow of Russian tanks should West Germany be invaded---they were considered a sacrificial unit, until heavy armor and air assets could be deployed from around Frankfurt and Wesel. Cold War.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-27-2014).]
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12:34 PM
normsf Member
Posts: 1682 From: mishawaka, In Registered: Oct 2003
I thought that the Abrams tanks have turbine engines and are fueled with jet aviation fuel or something very similar.
I guess some of the other vehicles that are required as support for an Abrams-equipped battle tank unit could well be diesel-fueled.
To give the tank decent traveling range, General Dynamics had to give it some mammoth fuel tanks. The most recent M1 model holds 490 gallons (1,850 L), allowing the tank to go about 265 miles (426 km) without refueling. The turbine engine works with a range of fuels, including ordinary gasoline, diesel fuel and jet fuel.
Hello, 29 tanks, is that It! Must be a diesel shortage, LOL.
Having been a tank crewman in early 00's, I'd easily put a company of M1A2's in fortified positions against a battalion of Russian T-80U/T-72B's. If you up them to M1A2SEP MBT's, I'd up them to T-90's and call it a good afternoon.
29 tanks is good for 1 fully outfitted heavy-armor company and 1 fully outfitted Cav company. The M1A2 fully combat loaded has 42 main gun rounds(That's 672 rounds in a 16 tanks heavy armor company), and with a good loader is able to get a shot off every 3 seconds and is able to load 10-12 rounds at that pace before needing a breather and a great loader can sling 15-18 rounds before getting tired. That's up to 160 main gun rounds down range in 30 seconds. The SEP is capable of hitting a moving target from 2km away and I've personally witnessed a mediocre loader with a mediocre gunner put 3 rounds on a moving target 1.5km away in under 12 seconds and that was 10 years ago. To my knowledge there's currently no armor in the world that can effectively protect against the self-sharpening M829A2/3 Depleted Uranium SABOT round used by the M1A1/2/SEP.
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01:47 PM
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
In the past 30 days ,29 upgraded abrams tanks were return to germany,I looked it up in stars & stripes,, the tanks are there most likely because of the activity in Ukraine the past 3 months.. & to encourage the germans in the event we do any thing to stop the russians!! The low number of Abrams would still be formidable under an A10 warthog squadron fying overhead cover ..of course obumbles wants to get rid of the A10 completely,, the airforce is being seriously hurt by defence buget cuts ,,the US Airforce no longer has complete controls of the sky
according to german military personel ,, the german people have become politically correct & do not support the german military ,so german support is no longer a guaratee,unless the fatherland or Austria is about to be attack.. there are still many east germans who hate the Russians with a hot passion,,Nothing like having the atheist oppressors boot directly on your neck to give a person perpective. Many more Russian aircraft headed to the border with Ukraine according to private intel At least a thousand very dangerous miles to eastern Ukraine & Crimea,,especially if by rail
So many here would accept the occupation & a totalitarian foriegn powers flag flying over one of our state capitols ???
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 02-27-2014).]
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02:45 PM
normsf Member
Posts: 1682 From: mishawaka, In Registered: Oct 2003
Having been a tank crewman in early 00's, I'd easily put a company of M1A2's in fortified positions against a battalion of Russian T-80U/T-72B's. If you up them to M1A2SEP MBT's, I'd up them to T-90's and call it a good afternoon.
29 tanks is good for 1 fully outfitted heavy-armor company and 1 fully outfitted Cav company. The M1A2 fully combat loaded has 42 main gun rounds(That's 672 rounds in a 16 tanks heavy armor company), and with a good loader is able to get a shot off every 3 seconds and is able to load 10-12 rounds at that pace before needing a breather and a great loader can sling 15-18 rounds before getting tired. That's up to 160 main gun rounds down range in 30 seconds. The SEP is capable of hitting a moving target from 2km away and I've personally witnessed a mediocre loader with a mediocre gunner put 3 rounds on a moving target 1.5km away in under 12 seconds and that was 10 years ago. To my knowledge there's currently no armor in the world that can effectively protect against the self-sharpening M829A2/3 Depleted Uranium SABOT round used by the M1A1/2/SEP.
Hello, youre 100% correct. I was not showing any disrespect to the armed forces and thankyou for your service, a little sarcastic though. As far as the A10 its a great weapons platform, which is feared by many on the ground. It may have seen its better days, especially in a contested airspace, where it would not survive without air cover. A Apache can do more, loiter more and hide from a distance with ints avionics' can do in almost all weather conditions.
Hello, youre 100% correct. I was not showing any disrespect to the armed forces and thankyou for your service, a little sarcastic though. As far as the A10 its a great weapons platform, which is feared by many on the ground. It may have seen its better days, especially in a contested airspace, where it would not survive without air cover. A Apache can do more, loiter more and hide from a distance with ints avionics' can do in almost all weather conditions.
No disrespect felt, and I understand the sarcasm, but a lot of people really don't understand how powerful the Abrams is. It may not be the fastest deployment vehicle out there, but it's impact once deployed is immense and unlike anything else out there.
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05:04 PM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
And maybe because I've war gamed too much... Or read Red Storm Rising.
The old Soviet axiom of Quality of Numbers does bear some weight.
Yes on paper the numbers look good, are we all suddenly forgetting fog of war and Murphys law?
How long to get some RoRo's to France/Allied port? vs How many attack subs do the Russians still have active? (Don't forget those sneaky old diesel boats)
Again, just wargamming here.. Not quite sure 29 M1+s and some Bradley 2/3s are going to do for 2+ weeks against a full Russian push..
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08:45 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
How long to get some RoRo's to France/Allied port? vs How many attack subs do the Russians still have active? (Don't forget those sneaky old diesel boats)
Again, just wargamming here.. Not quite sure 29 M1+s and some Bradley 2/3s are going to do for 2+ weeks against a full Russian push..
And again...
quote
Originally posted by yellowstone:
Not that I think that we'll need any tanks against the Russkies anytime soon but Europe is not completely defenseless without M1 Abrams MBT's...
Leopard 2 (Germany has 408, Austria 114, Denmark 57, Finland 100, Norway 52, Poland 233, Sweden 120, Spain 327, Switzerland 380) AMX Leclerc (France has 406) Challenger 2 (UK has 408) C1 Ariete (Italy has 200) ...
And that's just the third gen MBT's.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 02-27-2014).]
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09:26 PM
Rallaster Member
Posts: 9105 From: Indy southside, IN Registered: Jul 2009
I really don't want to agree with yellowstone, but he's right. The armament of the EU isn't anything to sneeze at.
The Leopard MBT runs the L/55 smoothbore 120mm main gun which is the base for the M236 main gun on the Abrams and has similar accuracy and range stats, and the Challenger 2 has the L30A1 rifled-bore 120mm main gun with a max effective range up to 8km depending on ammunition used and target movement.
All 3rd gen and refurb 1st/2nd gen MBT have significantly upgraded optics that include enhanced night vision, and FLIR thermal vision. Fog of war is almost non-existent as a result.
I don't know anything about the AMX or C1, so I can't comment on their capabilities, but with the Leopard and Challenger tanks on the European mainland alone is enough to go head-to-head with the latest T-series tanks. Throw in any amount of Abrams tanks and it gets stupid, quick. But just comparing heavy-armor is doing a disservice to the rest of the various armies. There's a lot more that goes into it than just the armored divisions.
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11:05 PM
Feb 28th, 2014
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Originally posted by Rallaster: Having been a tank crewman in early 00's, I'd easily put a company of M1A2's in fortified positions against a battalion of Russian T-80U/T-72B's. If you up them to M1A2SEP MBT's, I'd up them to T-90's and call it a good afternoon.
29 tanks is good for 1 fully outfitted heavy-armor company and 1 fully outfitted Cav company. The M1A2 fully combat loaded has 42 main gun rounds(That's 672 rounds in a 16 tanks heavy armor company), and with a good loader is able to get a shot off every 3 seconds and is able to load 10-12 rounds at that pace before needing a breather and a great loader can sling 15-18 rounds before getting tired. That's up to 160 main gun rounds down range in 30 seconds. The SEP is capable of hitting a moving target from 2km away and I've personally witnessed a mediocre loader with a mediocre gunner put 3 rounds on a moving target 1.5km away in under 12 seconds and that was 10 years ago. To my knowledge there's currently no armor in the world that can effectively protect against the self-sharpening M829A2/3 Depleted Uranium SABOT round used by the M1A1/2/SEP.
Really? Is that anything like this?
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12:28 AM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
I really don't want to agree with yellowstone, but he's right. The armament of the EU isn't anything to sneeze at.
The Leopard MBT runs the L/55 smoothbore 120mm main gun which is the base for the M236 main gun on the Abrams and has similar accuracy and range stats, and the Challenger 2 has the L30A1 rifled-bore 120mm main gun with a max effective range up to 8km depending on ammunition used and target movement.
All 3rd gen and refurb 1st/2nd gen MBT have significantly upgraded optics that include enhanced night vision, and FLIR thermal vision. Fog of war is almost non-existent as a result.
I don't know anything about the AMX or C1, so I can't comment on their capabilities, but with the Leopard and Challenger tanks on the European mainland alone is enough to go head-to-head with the latest T-series tanks. Throw in any amount of Abrams tanks and it gets stupid, quick. But just comparing heavy-armor is doing a disservice to the rest of the various armies. There's a lot more that goes into it than just the armored divisions.
Noted, and just "wargamming" here.. Modern German Infantry vs 80's infantry.. (The guys who are supposed to do delaying action) They used to be semi solid, now it's rednecks who couldnt figure out how to get a good "social job" which is better than the pansies in the metro areas but not what you'd call good troops...
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12:37 AM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
They used to be semi solid, now it's rednecks who couldnt figure out how to get a good "social job" which is better than the pansies in the metro areas but not what you'd call good troops...
Which is fine because all the Russians are drunk anyways...
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