Sevastopol 2 biggest airports occupied by russian troops
this is an act of war
america HAS BEEN beaten terribly in Kharkov

NOT IN OUR PRESS,FROM PERSONAL E MAILS TO ME
Eastern Ukraine press is similar to American newpapers
thier loyalty is to the left!! from british & ukraine military
...All Media is telling people the new goverment is criminal ,bandits is the atheist term
All Western Nuclear waste will be dumped in Ukraine
the new main top goverment officials all have swiss bank accounts in the Millions
Yanukovych is still president ran off by criminal
Ukraine economy was ruined by thenew criminals
only the most shoddy products will be sent to Ukraine & worse
The rail road stations are really a vibrant part of Ukraine ,
Russian atheist thugs are looking for Americans & Ukraine freedom protesters ..they listen for english & wait till they leave rail station,, the rail way stations have police patrols
sometimes the police & militia carry sub machine guns
thier are young Militia17 to 21 with only baton clubs, nite stick
....Protesters or people who voted non russian,MANY HAVE BEEN BEATEN
I belong to a Ukraine dating site,,I have a lot of Ukraine women write to me
with reports of what is happening..It is alarming that the russian outrageous lies are beleaved
........but it is the same in America, with people not informed,not caring as we sink lower every month..I thought we would have one more push to temp prosperity.,,Obumbles has really hurt America!!

Come on, newf, play wargames with us! Is one Abrams equal to 1.2 T-90 or 1.76?

quote All Western Nuclear waste will be dumped in Ukraine

That is over presumptuous, in-accurate, and certainly an unfair statement.
We will keep a little of it here in order to provide jobs at our storage facilities, and some nuclear "waste" actually has a use should hybrid fission/fusion reactors become a real deal type thing.

The unfair part? What about the East? Doesn't China, Paistan, and India deserve a place to be able dump their toxic radioactive waste too? Of course they do--and what about the mid-East? Iran has a nuke plant already and UAE has several in proposal. We Americans can't keep just hog all the Ukrainian dump sites--it's a brave new world--gotta allow the rest of our global neighbors in on this deal too.
It ain't all about 'Murica--UKRAINE FOR ALL!!
WAR FOR WASTE--WAR FOR WASTE!!

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-28-2014).]

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: Really? Is that anything like this?

It was explained to me that the DU penetrator was designed to shear off at the microscopic level around the point to maintain a sharp edge when it hits armor. Yes, the projectile gets smaller as a result, but only minimally. Hence the "self sharpening" description.

I understand that this is a tank vs. tank battle scenario that you are talking about.
But in the real world I'm sure that a few squadrons of A-10 Warthogs would be deployed.
And I'm sure that they would have a significant impact on the battlefield.

~ Bob ~

quote Originally posted by maryjane: And wrong as well. Feb 3 2014US Tanks return to Germany after brief leave

Based on the article, 22 Abrams and 33 Bradleys. Not what I'd call a major battle force when compared to what the Russians could throw against them.

I also don't expect our fearless leader to do much more than wring his hands. Putin knows we're not going to do anything so I'm pretty sure the ties to mother Russia will not be lost.

------------------
Ron
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?

My Uncle Frank was a staunch Conservative and voted straight Republican until the day he died in Chicago. Since then he has voted Democrat. Shrug

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: I'm sure that a few squadrons of A-10 Warthogs would be deployed.

Nah, Nobama figures we don't need them ... he is gonna cut them.

Breaking News-Trending--in an unprecedented and epic move, Putin has sent in the awesome Night Wolves--Russia's version of Hell's Angels to protect Crimea. A hella turn of events. They will begin a motorcyle ride in a day or so all over Crimea--a Rally? Really? This is the Russian Bear as a 21st century superpower? Seriously?
http://world.time.com/2014/...-putin-night-wolves/

Crimea can now pursue their right to self determination. May not work out, and may plunge us into nuclear Armageddon but .it is what it is.
Just sayin.........
In a rare show of defiance, President Obama has warned Putin against any military interference. "There will be costs." Really? LOL
Sabre Rattling. Whoa--is that Kewl or what?--Go for it Barry--YOLO!

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-28-2014).]

Not saying that it's right or good but the Ukraine and especially the Crimea is Russia's backyard. What would the US response be if something similar was happening in, say, Mexico and millions of US citizens lived there and one of the largest US naval bases was threatened...? What would the US say in such a scenario if Russia deployed military units anywhere near?

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 02-28-2014).]

Say--or do?
We'd say a lot, invoking the old Roosevelt Corollary--an offshoot of the Monroe Doctrine, which Kerry recently pronounced dead.

Do? That, would depend whether Mexico asked for our assistance or not.

Sound like good reasons for a partition of the country. I understand both sides viewpoint. Night Wolves? I used to run a bar that was frequented by Hells Angels. They were arrogant assholes who would stick a screw driver in you without a second thought if they felt like it and they ran the local meth network. No respect from me, and I don't want to be around them at all. Nothing against motorcycle riders. Riding was one of the things that I was totally into at one time.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Do? That, would depend whether Mexico asked for our assistance or not.

Ask for assistance? You can always find someone who will ask for assistance if you want to have a pretext. Wouldn't be the first time... (and I mean Russia just as much).

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Monroe Doctrine, which Kerry recently pronounced dead.

Really/ Openly said this?

WTF?

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: Which is fine because all the Russians are drunk anyways...

Valid point, but also means they feel less pain.

BTW none of this is a dig on you personally, simple war gaming.

Of the tanks you listed (nice group btw) 10% will be down for maint, sorry best tanks in the world they break a lot.
At best you've got about 4k tanks fully mobile.. But divided due to languages, units etc

At best you've got another holding action until the American Imperialists get their crap together and send the rest of their 5k tanks.

And this time we're keeping Cuba because they've got US Heritage items (cool old cars) and hot women!

As far as I know, Mexico pulled out of the reciprocal defense agreement known as RIO with the US in 2004.

quote RIO TREATY A treaty signed September 2, 1947, which provides that an armed attack against any American State shall be considered as an attack against all the American States and each one undertakes to assist in meeting the attack. PARTIES: United States, Argentina, Bahamas, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Trinidad & Tobago, Uruguay, Venezuela _______________________ NOTE: During 2004, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovak Republic, and Slovenia were added to the list and Mexico was removed.

http://www.state.gov/s/l/treaty/collectivedefense/

An armed invasion or occupation of Mexico tho, would be a dream come true for the current administartion and 1/2 of congress. We would hold the border with armored and infantry units from Ft Hood Tx, Ft Bliss Tx, Ft Sill Ok, Ft Polk La but in a humanitarian gesture, we would likely see the border swung open wide the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Mexican refugees streaming North and almost overnight, Texas, Okla, La, Kansas,and other currently "red" states would turn blue. There is no way INS would be able to keep track and probably wouldn't even try.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: President Obama has warned Putin against any military interference.

Never fear, Nobama's here. Which is what Putin is banking on.
It seems like Barry has again adopted his policy of leading from behind.

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quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Really/ Openly said this? WTF?

Doesn't anyone read the news?
http://www.washingtontimes....tin-american-leader/
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwi...oe-doctrine-is-over/


"The Kerry Doctrine[edit]
Further information: Foreign policy of the Barack Obama administration#Americas
President Barack Obama's Secretary of State John Kerry told the Organization of American States in November 2013 that the Monroe Doctrine was dead.[27] Several commentators have noted that Kerry's call for a mutual partnership with the other countries in the Americas was more in keeping with Monroe's initial message than with the policies that had been enacted long after Monroe's death."

Last paragraph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-28-2014).]

An interesting discussion on the fall of American power:

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.c...-power/3272423908001

quote Originally posted by Sourmug: An interesting discussion on the fall of American power: http://www.sunnewsnetwork.c...-power/3272423908001

Interesting?
100% right on target. "Absence of American power--Can America come back after Obama?--Putin danced on Obama's line in the sand in Syria..."

I like it.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Interesting? 100% right on target. "Absence of American power--Can America come back after Obama?--Putin danced on Obama's line in the sand in Syria..." I like it.

Yes, there's a lot of truth in it.

You guys know they said the same thing with Pres Carter. We were at a very low point before Reagan.

Also, Crimea was part of Russia before Khrushchev made it part of the Ukraine during the USSR days. There is a lot of history in that region that we need to consider.

Putin super gratefull for Obumbles,french lead the free world
So solly , been very busy on my military forum,no one there thinks millions murdered funny
russia now has new troops 6000 in Ukraine only elite units
Putin has replaced critical politicians wirh pro russia men
Russians calling for Russian troops to protect them
there have been armed conflict ,gunfire exchange between russian & ukaine troops
Russian troops trying to take over anti aircaft units,Unit guards were subdued???
Russian Marines surrounded the Ukraine coast guard base tense confrotation

Ukraine surrendered thier nuclear weapons to the USA,in return we are have sworn to
defend them, the USA is sworn to fight for Ukraine ,of course the word of the USA is worthless!

The Ukrainian troops are outguned & few,have no chance they need 250 A-10 warthogs !!
Putin knows 100 abrams tanks with massive A-10 over head & USA fighters above them ?
Hard corp admiral who wanted to fight removed!weaker Ukraine general replaced him

filed before present crisis my passport was screw up! will leave for Ukraine as soon as I recieve new passport,I will fly in ,if airports closed I will cross border on foot..airborne gung ho!

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: Ask for assistance? You can always find someone who will ask for assistance if you want to have a pretext. Wouldn't be the first time... (and I mean Russia just as much).

See?

"Crimean leader invites Russia to intervene. Russia "will not disregard" the request for help "in maintaining peace and accord in Crimea," the Kremlin says."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/...index.html?hpt=hp_t1

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: "Crimean leader invites Russia to intervene. Russia "will not disregard" the request for help "in maintaining peace and accord in Crimea," the Kremlin says."

Apples to potato chips ?
That would be like if Florida asked another country for help to protect the United States. Did Crimea secede from the Ukraine ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Apples to potato chips ? That would be like if Florida asked another country for help to protect the United States. Did Crimea secede from the Ukraine ?

Who cares? It's a pretext...

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: No disrespect felt, and I understand the sarcasm, but a lot of people really don't understand how powerful the Abrams is. It may not be the fastest deployment vehicle out there, but it's impact once deployed is immense and unlike anything else out there.

I worked on AH64-D Long Bows at Boeing. What people don't realize about our Abrams is their massive technological power and communications. A M1 tank platoon can receive real time data from an Apache Long Bow which feeds enemy in the area along with threat prioritized in order from greatest to least. The synergy coms between the M1 and air is amazing, and the Russians with their T-90's have nothing that can compare in terms of combat tech systems....this makes a HUGE difference in combat.

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 03-01-2014).]

Your forgetting the Ukrainian army. It's small compared to Russia but invading Ukrane wouldn't be a cakewalk by any means. Their armour and artillery is as good or better than the Russians and they are better trained and motivated, remember the mauling the Russians took at the hands of the Finns. Other former Warsaw Pact countries, Poland for instance, would take a dim view of a Russian invasion and I would expect substantial support from them. It took the USSR years to subdue the Ukraine after the revolution, they don't want the Russians back, especially the Crimean Tartars, they alone could wage a guerilla war in the Crimean mountains for years. Russia has a formidable military but it is nowhere near it's former Soviet strength and I doubt it could take and hold the Ukraine.

I now work with a Russian that is more representative of a good American than most of us. He fought. We do not know as much as our news is letting on about the Ukraine. We see only what our government is letting us see. Listening to this good man, I definitely believe we need to stay out of this.

I am learning more every day. As info comes to me, I will try to keep up here. Don't believe what our government is telling you.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/...pe/ukraine-politics/

The Russians probably won't 'invade' Ukraine outside of the Crimea. They probably will occupy/'liberate' the Crimea where the population is mostly Russian.
Obama is going to have his hands full not looking like a weakling again, but the truth is, there is very little he can do.
I will be the most surprised person in the world if he goes as far as asking Congress for authority to use force, and I doubt the European members of NATO will get very involved either (militarily speaking).
Inasmuch as I believe in a (any and all) people's right for self determination, I see absolutely no reason for him to do anything at all anyway.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-01-2014).]

If there's one thing for certain no matter what tack Obama takes it will be seen as the wrong one by the "conservatorium".

Kudos to MJ for some rational thoughts however. A free thinker no matter if one agrees or not.

Trending--------------------Obama to hold press conference blaming George Bush for the Ukraine invasion.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Inasmuch as I believe in a (any and all) people's right for self determination, I see absolutely no reason for him to do anything at all anyway.

Agreed. It may be the best if the Ukraine went the way of Czechoslovakia, peacefully.

If what comes out of this is more than just a momentary setback in the U.S.-to-Russia relationship and Obama decides to signal his displeasure with Vlad by not attending that G8 economic summit that is scheduled to convene in Sochi in June, then I would expect that two of the likely fallouts will be (1) an end to any possibility of further Russian cooperation with the U.S. over the conflict in Syria, and (2) Russia pulling out of its current cooperation with the U.S. and the E.U. in terms of supporting the economic sanctions regime against Iran related to Iran's nuclear activities.

That's what I see in my crystal ball. So am I "Captain Obvious" today, or what..?

quote Originally posted by newf: If there's one thing for certain no matter what tack Obama takes it will be seen as the wrong one by the "conservatorium".

He is not doing anything.
What would you not do ?

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: If what comes out of this is more than just a momentary setback in the U.S.-to-Russia relationship and Obama decides to signal his displeasure with Vlad by not attending that G8 economic summit that is scheduled to convene in Sochi in June, then I would expect that two of the likely fallouts will be (1) an end to any possibility of further Russian cooperation with the U.S. over the conflict in Syria, and (2) Russia pulling out of its current cooperation with the U.S. and the E.U. in terms of supporting the economic sanctions regime against Iran related to Iran's nuclear activities. That's what I see in my crystal ball. So am I "Captain Obvious" today, or what..?

Pretty much since yesterday's news stated Obama did phone Putin and as part of the 90 minute call, told him we (US) would not be attending G8 or it's preparatory metings. Brits and French have done the same

Posted: 03/01/2014 5:27 pm EST
http://www.huffingtonpost.c...aine_n_4882058.html.
Putin won't care.