quote Originally posted by Jonesy: My, why how contradicting of you..

Lack of a religious belief (according to atheists) is not the same as practicing a religion--no matter how fanatically one is in not practicing one--and no matter how determined and fanatic they are in criticizing those who do.
I've been told on more than one ocassion and by more than one such practioner, that satanism is NOT a religion.
I stand by what I said:

quote I have never given serious weight to a candidate's religion when I voted

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-20-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Would he have even known about it back then? Jesus never said anything about homosexuals.. The bible said a little, which was not written by Jesus. So your assuming Jesus hated homosexuals, even though he himself never mentioned them.. But your bible did, so thats the same thing right? Christian history is just as violent and bloody as the muslims, if not more so.. Only difference is the Christians lost power, so they don't get the joy of killing in the name of god anymore, and in thier part of the world at least, the muslims havent..

If you would like to discus this further we can do it thru PM's. I dont want to hijack this thread.
I see that you have some things you want to get off your chest?
Rick

Why wouldn't I want to vote for a person who talks to an imaginary person in the sky and thinks that the imaginary person replys and cares about them. I know that sounds like a mentally challenged person, but some (most) religious people think that way. I confess to being an agnostic.

How refreshing it would be to have a candidate come out and say "I have no more knowledge or proof of the existence of God than any of the rest of you.. I am running for president based on what I think I can do to help the country, not on who my voters think I believe in when i kneel down to pray."

At that point, it would not matter what religion he/she is.. because they professed wanting to help our country over all else.

I would be down with that.

lets see, a president who believes in God
believes Adam & Eve and their inbreeding are the root of humanity
believes god flooded the earth, and saved a single dude & his family, to once again promote inbreeding
hmmm.....not sure we can accept such foolishness

but, I suppose I can understand the fascination with inbreeding?...

Even if they were staunch Christians (or deists, whatever), plenty of the Founding Fathers had a healthy admiration for the Muslim faith. Thomas Jefferson, for example, taught himself Arabic using his own copy of the Quran and hosted the first White House Iftar during Ramadan.

John Adams hailed the Islamic prophet Muhammad as one of the great "inquirers after truth." Benjamin Rush, who was so Christian he wanted a Bible in every school, also said he would rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammad "inculcated upon our youth" than see them grow deprived "of a system of religious principles." Benjamin Franklin once declared: "Even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service." Even George (bleep-ing) Washington personally welcomed Muslims to come work for him at Mount Vernon.

So, why all this Founding Father/Muslim love? Probably because Sultan Mohammed ben Abdallah of Morocco was the first world figure to recognize the independence of the United States of America from Great Britain in 1777. Another reason was that the Founding Fathers were smart enough to distinguish between terrorists and everybody else on the whole damn planet, as demonstrated in the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797. It was in this agreement that the U.S. declared: "The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Mussulmen [Moslems]."


"Five Ridiculous Things You Probably Believe About Islam"
http://www.cracked.com/arti...eve-about-islam.html

And how much gold and jewels was paid in booty for that treaty to be adhered to by the Muslims?
(ans=$58K in precious metals, cloth and cash)

" "It is a maxim of the Barbary States, that 'The Christians who would be on good terms with them must fight well or pay well."

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-21-2012).]

quote Originally posted by dratts: Why wouldn't I want to vote for a person who talks to an imaginary person in the sky and thinks that the imaginary person replys and cares about them. I know that sounds like a mentally challenged person, but some (most) religious people think that way. I confess to being an agnostic.

Did writing that make you feel better?

You just made a thinly veiled implication that a large number of your fellow citizens are mentally challenged, because YOUR assertion makes you feel that is what it sounds like.

Yet the vast majority of the "seemingly" mentally challenged people live productive lives, are peaceful and helpful neighbors or associates or co-workers or acquaintances. All evidence that they are NOT mentally challenged, but you throw out the totality of that experience and observation and go for "sounds mentally challenged." Nicely done.


Here is the issue. You bring up the question: Why wouldn't I want to vote for a person who talks to an imaginary person in the sky and thinks that the imaginary person replys and cares about them.


OK. Answer the question. Why wouldn't you? If their, to you, imaginary belief system results in them being a BETTER person, or results in their principles resulting in a BETTER government, what difference does it make to you?


On the other hand, if a persons, to you, imaginary belief system, results in their principles threatening the government structure that you believe in and currently exists, or if they are an agnostic and are that way, why would you vote for them? Why would you not resist them?


I don't believe, as an example, that Joseph Smith found some special writings, and that the mormon church beliefs represent God as He really is. Some people do. And here apparently is where we differ. I live and let live. I let people believe what they want. As long as you are a great citizen, neighbor, etc., hey, believe what you want. So would I vote for a mormon? Sure. I base it on my best evaluation of their historical BEHAVIOR.


Regarding the thread topic, if the person was a TRUE muslim, I would never vote for them. Because they believe in sharia law over a country's secular law. I don't want that. But lots of muslims, just like in any denomination, don't hold STRICTLY to every part of their faith/religion/whatever you want to call it. So if they are muslim, but have a track record of behavior that results in what I would consider a great government, sure, I would vote for them.


So here are a couple follow up questions. So you would only vote for an agnostic?

And are you going on record as calling out people as mentally challenged?

There aren't enough agnostics running and anyway I would not agree with ALL agnostics. I DO wonder about people whose beliefs are based on faith rather than proof. That doesn't mean that I think that they are bad. Most of my moral standards came from a baptist church. I don't reject everything I was taught, but I always question everything I'm told.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I don't reject everything I was taught, but I always question everything I'm told.

Good advice for everyone.

Including people in religious systems.

Including declarations coming from candidates, no matter whether they have a religion or not.

quote Originally posted by dratts: Why wouldn't I want to vote for a person who talks to an imaginary person in the sky and thinks that the imaginary person replys and cares about them. I know that sounds like a mentally challenged person, but some (most) religious people think that way. I confess to being an agnostic.

If you are truly agnostic, you leave the options open that it could be either true or imaginary. There is no proof either way for an agnostic, so both are potential 'truths'. . Atheists would go for the 'imaginary worship' angle.


Just to add, a lot of science is based on faith too.. Faith that the 'proof' is valid and something wsant missed.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 12-21-2012).]

I do believe that a supreme being as described is possible. Because I understand the human desire to believe in an afterlife among a few other things, I understand the need for religion among some of us. I don't see any advantage to believing that there is no god, but it is a real possibility to me. A part of me thinks that the need for a belief can drive the invention of a religion to satisfy that need. In the end though, I don't know and probably never will. I must be an agnostic.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: If Obama is not a 'practicing' muslim, he at least favors them. As for voting for an admitted muslim....NO. Why would anyone vote for a person whose beliefs are that all capitalists and non muslims should be killed. They preach that they are peace loving, but their actions every day contradict that.

Nevermind

[This message has been edited by bonzo (edited 12-21-2012).]

quote Originally posted by bonzo: No. I must continue. Not all Muslims are bad. Are there bad Christians? (I AM CHRISTIAN). Nazis were 94% Christian. 50% Protestant and 40% Catholic. There are extremist in all religions. Do You Believe that all Muslims think that all capitalists and non muslims should be killed? WOW You have to stop watching Fox News. They are rotting your brain.

You said you are Christian, I dont doubt you but I must say I have see countless hours of Fox news and cant remember them ever teaching what you just said they do? Can I ask you to prove this? Maybe tone down the rumors/exaggerations/lies, I dont remember the Bible teaching that kind of "kindness".
If you had not said you were Christian I would not have said anything, but saying you are Christian comes with restraint in our criticism of others I know this because I have to much experience mishandeling my disagreements with others.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: You said you are Christian, I dont doubt you but I must say I have see countless hours of Fox news and cant remember them ever teaching what you just said they do? Can I ask you to prove this? Maybe tone down the rumors/exaggerations/lies, I dont remember the Bible teaching that kind of "kindness". If you had not said you were Christian I would not have said anything, but saying you are Christian comes with restraint in our criticism of others I know this because I have to much experience mishandeling my disagreements with others.

I ask you. Do You Believe that all Muslims think that all capitalists and non muslims should be killed?

quote Originally posted by maryjane:

Ok, so basically your saying you don't care about a candidates religion, as long as he actually is religious? Correct?

quote Originally posted by dratts: There aren't enough agnostics running and anyway I would not agree with ALL agnostics. I DO wonder about people whose beliefs are based on faith rather than proof. That doesn't mean that I think that they are bad. Most of my moral standards came from a baptist church. I don't reject everything I was taught, but I always question everything I'm told.

The only people that know for sure, are the dead ones. That is if there is a god as spelled out in the various texts floating around.. if not, then they dont know either.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: If you would like to discus this further we can do it thru PM's. I dont want to hijack this thread. I see that you have some things you want to get off your chest? Rick

nah, im good.. Just wanted to add some perspective too your comment that Jesus doesn't like gays.. Didn't mean to change the threads coarse or anything, but you brought it up so.

quote Originally posted by bonzo: I ask you. Do You Believe that all Muslims think that all capitalists and non muslims should be killed?

OK, this is easy the answer is NO. The answer was easy because the question was flawed. The word "all" gives it away. Never say never and stay away from "all".
The "real question" should sound something like "what does mohomid say about capitalists and non-muslams?" And that question can be googled.
If they dont follow muhamid's teachings, they are not even muslam and dont represent islam.

No. Doesn't matter why. Very few opinions can be changed on an internet forum.

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: No. Doesn't matter why. Very few opinions can be changed on an internet forum. Jonathan

This is untrue, Google it Info from the Net : You cant touch this LOL

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: This is untrue, Google it Info from the Net : You cant touch this LOL

Yes I am a French model! Why do you ask?

Jonathan

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Yes I am a French model! Why do you ask? Jonathan

I knew that, the Net told me

I won't go into my reasons. But the short answer is No.

Well maybe I will go into it a bit, I live in Surrey BC and we have about as many Muslim's and East Indian's as LA has Spanish Immigrants. So I deal with them on a regular basis. I am not saying that they are bad people, however "IF" the person is a real practicing Muslim their beliefs are frankly not what the US would need. We DID have a few here in BC Canada in Government and there were several financial scandals in the "New Democratic Party" The only reason they got elected were because of the other Indian's voted for them. They took things like BC Rail which has been a staple of British Columbia and a pride of BC and Sold it in an under handed deal that the general public didn't know about. There are a ton of other deals that we don't know about either. It would be like the US President selling off a few National Parks to the Japanese, or selling off the US Highways Department to the Germans. Just because it put more money in the polictions pockets. If he knew he was not going to be elected, again, he didn't care, he just went ahead and did it. Then paid off the people that he had to in order to get it done quickly and quietly.

If you think a Christian Politician is un-truthful, a Muslim one will scare you to death.

To give you an idea, they have a Phone Book that only allows other East Indian Business owners. If you are a white guy, you can't be in their phone book. However if you try to do a White Guy only phone book, they freaked and called it raciest.


Recently there is a current trial going on, where a Muslim guy killed this other family's daughter, and the crown council is charging them, you would think the 2 family's would want to kill each other over it. However they are still on speaking terms.
However if a white kid hits a Muslim OMG ITS WORLD WAR III and they want the persons head on a platter.

I just can't see or trust a Muslim ever in authority ever again.
I have friends that are and I have nothing against them as a person, however as a culture I have my serious doubts.

If you have questions about their culture just take a good look at what they do in the middle east. Both sides claim to be a Peace Loving religion, yet they both shoot and try to blow each other up and its not just one group against the other group, there are several different factions involved.

So in an answer No I would personally NEVER vote for one. However I would be friends with one.

Now to add some levity to it, if you want an employee in charge of purchasing or contracting out to get the cheapest prices. Hire an Hindu / East Indian. If you think a Jewish person can haggle a price, they could make a Jewish person cry. If you ever want to see something funny, get a grumpy old Asian woman haggle with an east Indian. Its Funny as heck, neither of them can understand the other, aside from you "blah blah blah, yew, tri scwuoo me, and so on.

On a side note, 2 of my most trusted friends are of that decent and I would trust them with my life, my wife and my Fiero. (I'll just never try to buy anything from him as both of us end up getting offended, its easier to Give each other stuff for free than to try and haggle a price)

------------------
857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: OK, this is easy the answer is NO. The answer was easy because the question was flawed. The word "all" gives it away. Never say never and stay away from "all". The "real question" should sound something like "what does mohomid say about capitalists and non-muslams?" And that question can be googled. If they dont follow muhamid's teachings, they are not even muslam and dont represent islam.

So what does Mohammed say about capitalists, and about non-Muslims?

Let's start with the non-Muslims part:

"We have honored the sons of Adam, provided them transport on land and sea, sustained them with good things, and conferred on them special favors above a great part of our creation." Quran, 17:70.

Who are "the sons of Adam"..? This was considered by 200 of the world's leading Islamic scholars in 2005, when they came together and issued The Amman Message. They interpreted the meaning of Quran 17:70 for all Muslims:

Islam honors every human being, regardless of his color, race or religion.

Is everyone around the world who says they are Muslim seen to be living in accordance with this very important part of The Amman Message? Of course not. Many of them still haven't "gotten the memo". But it's not Mohammed's fault. It's not an intrinsic failure of Islam. It's the failure of the many that say that they are Muslim, but either don't know about, or willfully disregard The Amman Message, which is--according to Huffington Post blogger Wajahat Ali--a "Sharia-based document".

On the very same page, The Amman Message calls out those [like Osama bin Laden] who say that they are Muslim, but are seen not to live in accordance with Islam:

Islam is ... also under attack from some who claim affiliation with Islam and commit irresponsible acts in its name.

For a brief but intelligent explanation of Sharia and the significance of The Amman Message to mainstream Islam, see Sharia Fact Sheet from the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding.


What about Islam and capitalism?

My first offering is a recent post, conveniently brief, from a Saudi-based think tank, under the title "Islam and Capitalism: An Expected Match": The focus is on Turkey (99.8 percent Muslim, according to the CIA) and its expanding economy as a demonstration of the fundamental compatibility of Islam with twenty-first century capitalism and globalization.

Prophet Mohammed himself was a trader, who preached merchant honor and commanded that 90 per cent of a Muslim’s life be devoted to work.

Now segue to a recent column by Guy Sorman in City Journal under the title "Is Islam Compatible with Capitalism?", a longer essay, from which I present a middle passage:

Over time, however, Sharia adapted to capitalism. In the nineteenth century, it finally allowed Muslims to form joint-stock companies and to borrow other key capitalist institutions from the West. Today, Islamic banks follow the same practices that non-Islamic banks do (including the use of derivatives) but describe them differently, so that they conform with sharia. Yet despite this transformation in Islamic law, Muslim economies still lag behind Western ones. Greif and Kuran may help explain the Long Divergence, but what accounts for the fact that there is no “Arab Tiger” comparable with Asia’s remarkable success stories?

Part of the answer may, in fact, be religious: Islam’s apostasy law. Sharia holds that a Muslim who breaks with Islam becomes an apostate, an offense punishable by death. And since, at least for Sunni Muslims, there is no central theological authority—the theocratic regime in Iran establishes such authority for Shiite Muslims—any Sunni imam can define what constitutes breaking with Islam. This power may deter potential innovators, including the entrepreneurial kind, from doing anything that could conceivably get them into trouble.

But a bigger reason for the Arab world’s stagnation is political. In nearly every Arab Muslim country, the prime enemy of entrepreneurship and the free market is an abusive government—and the strong, unaccountable, and usually despotic regimes that have dominated Arab Muslim populations for decades owe neither their origins nor their legitimacy, such as it is, to Islam.

What I get, from all that, is that many Islamic countries have been slow to adopt the best parts of capitalism, and that there has been some friction between Islam and capitalism, but that there is no deep or fundamental philosophical divide that puts Islam in direct opposition to capitalism, especially as we look to the not-so-distant future.

In another recent article in The New Yorker, John Cassidy explores the question "The economies of the Arab world lag behind the West. Is Islam to blame?", under the somewhat roguish title of "Prophet Motive". By page three, we get to this:

It's worth noting ... that Islam, at least in its original formulation, was far from hostile to business. While the Koran prohibits usury [interest on loans], it also contains verses encouraging commerce ... The Prophet Mohammed is believed to have been a merchant early in his adult life, and on one occasion he reportedly said, "The trustworthy merchant will sit in the shade of Allah's throne." The caliphate that Mohammed and his successors created was a great trading empire, with outposts from the Atlantic coast of Spain to Central Asia. In addition to selling spices and precious metals, Islamic entrepreneurs developed successful manufacturing industries, such as paper, carpets and cotton textiles--and all this when much of Europe was in the Dark Ages.

Turning to more recent history, Cassidy shifts his eye towards the two Muslim giants of Southeastern Asia:

In 2008, Indonesia's inflation-adjusted G.D.P. per person was five and a half times what it was in 1980; in Malaysia during the same period, it rose almost sixfold. Just a generation ago, both of these countries were overwhelmingly rural and poverty-stricken. Today they are industrialized middle-income countries, with universal education systems and long life expectancies.

After five pages, Cassidy ends with:

Day-to-day worship of the sort practiced by hundreds of millions of Muslims is no more what is holding back the Middle East than Hinduism was what held back India or Roman Catholicism was what held back Ireland. Despite the arguments of the new Weberians, people have always found a way to serve their gods and Mammon, too.

I think that anyone who wants to solidify the thesis that Islam is inherently antagonistic to capitalism has a very long row to hoe.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-23-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: Ok, so basically your saying you don't care about a candidates religion, as long as he actually is religious? Correct?

Wrong.
I'm saying I don't give religion any weight as part of my candidate choosing process.
I "may" give those who are vocally and publicly 'anti religion' negative weight.
As I said originally--I'll have to give that some thought.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I would not mind, for any reason, voting for a Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, or any of the other religions... even the obscure ones like Bahai... BUT... there are two that I absolutely would refuse to vote for, and that's Jehova's Witnesses (sorry guys), and Islam. Both of those religions are, for whatever reason, radical. I simply cannot take the risk that my country will undergo a radical transformation as a result of a president's religion.

I would add Scientologists to the 'do not vote' list.

Actually, I wouldn't vote for anyone who wears their religion on their sleeve, so to speak. That kind of person, in my experience, is highly untrustworthy.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lets see, a president who believes in God believes Adam & Eve and their inbreeding are the root of humanity believes god flooded the earth, and saved a single dude & his family, to once again promote inbreeding hmmm.....not sure we can accept such foolishness but, I suppose I can understand the fascination with inbreeding?...

Just curious...ignoring religion, scientifically speaking, do you think we all originated through inbreeding (if you go back far enough)? I'm not trying to start a debate here, but I'm "just curious."

[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 12-24-2012).]

http://www.islam-watch.org/...slamic-paradise.html

Christmas in the United Arab Emirates:
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/e...ristmas-is-optional/

A couple of months ago, I read an article in the British press about where and how people like to spend their Christmas. One lady said that she and her husband spend it in Dubai so they can “get away” from all the hype. “It’s a Muslim country,” said the woman, “so they don’t celebrate Christmas.”

And while that’s technically true in as much as Muslims don’t celebrate Christmas as a religious festival, that lady would be wrong to imply that Christmas isn’t celebrated here. You don’t, after all, have to be a Christian to take your children to see Santa. . . .

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: You don’t, after all, have to be a Christian to take your children to see Santa. . . .

Santa has nothing to do with religion, he's a product of retail sales. More universal than any religion.

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: people have always found a way to serve their gods and Mammon, too.

Yeah, funny thing, that.

No.

Sure, why not. We need a new reason for someone being in a perpetual hot-seat. We've kind of overdone the current one.

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: http://www.islam-watch.org/...slamic-paradise.html

That's some scary stuff. Not because I'm religious' but because religions throw out the ability for humans to think logically. They all say "my way or the highway". There is no necessity to be religious in order to be a good moral person.

quote Originally posted by dratts: That's some scary stuff. Not because I'm religious' but because religions throw out the ability for humans to think logically. They all say "my way or the highway". There is no necessity to be religious in order to be a good moral person.

One of my biggest problems with 'organized' religions. If you believe in a higher power, that is fine and good for you, but once you organize, by definition you are told what to believe, and when to do it, and how.

The campaign against indiscriminate bombings by Islamic militants: Muslim scholars and clerics upping their game?

For the first time in late January, Muslim scholars and clerics from around the world will come to Kabul specifically to condemn suicide bombings as un-Islamic. The conference will be the first to focus on suicide bombing, and its framers hope the result will reverberate beyond Afghanistan.

"Many times, scholars in Pakistan and Afghanistan have made statements but had no influence," says Mufti Shamsur Rahman Firotan, a religious scholar in Kabul. "This one will have influence, and will give the idea to the people that suicide attacks are forbidden. The message is for all: in Iraq, in Pakistan, all these [militant jihadist] groups."

Senior United Nations officials have challenged religious officials to speak more loudly against attacks carried out in the name of Islam, while Afghan religious scholars have long decried suicide attacks, with little response by the ultra-conservative Taliban. An official gathering this summer resolved that suicide attacks "have no legitimate foundation in Islam."

It had little effect at the time. But those declarations have now been further bolstered. Saudi Arabia’s Grand Mufti, the highest religious authority in the birthplace of Islam and respected by the Taliban, explicitly condemned suicide bombing.

Get the whole story:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/...bings-as-un-islamic/

quote Originally posted by User00013170: One of my biggest problems with 'organized' religions. If you believe in a higher power, that is fine and good for you, but once you organize, by definition you are told what to believe, and when to do it, and how.

If there's a "God" or "Godess" that is 'worthy' of my admiration/devotion/whatever, they'll chat with me directly. Words written in an old book, some crazy guy yellin' on a street corner, or posting on a forum, or some smudgey image burned into my morning toast ain't gonna sway me.

Tell Carnut that once I drop of his wife, I'll help him with the valve covers (I'll hold my hands over his Fiero and will heal it) or Jesus will, once he's done endlessly replicating the beer and wings

And no matter what islamist leaders do, It'll never be enough for those who hate/fear them.

I use different sparkplugs on my car, depending on the weather. And sand+seafoam does WONDERS to clean out the "gook" in all the nooks and crannies in the car.
Thingie is STILL dead.

Good neighbors DO make good fences. And sorry Lisa, but Gwenny is still the one for me...

Nick (the thread-killer), you had good reason to be paranoid.

Edit: beep.