quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: No, nothing will completely prevent things like this from happening, but maybe it will reduce the number that might have happened? We will never know. Would this guy have gone out of his way to get the weapons he really wanted if they weren't so easily available to him, or would he have just set out with the pistols? We each decide what we think would have happened. Rick

Well, he did try to purchase and was turned down, so he committed murder to get them. I don't consider that "readily available."
Would he have just set out with pistols?



And the media decides what you should think happened.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: Don't know how you can say that when I've stated a fact. And if it is a fantasy, am I happier and more content living in my fantasy world than you are living in yours? That was a rhetorical question, so you don't have to answer it, just think about it.

Remember we are not the ones committing these crimes, the criminals are. Take our right to protect ourselves and others and as far as I am concerned you don’t deserve my help when TSHTF.

It can happen anywhere, anywhere, even in your fantasy world. See we live in the real world were things happen everyday that we have no control over and are not willing to be just one more of the victims.

And as in the example I already posted they don’t always need to have guns, I was attacked with a sickle with a 2’ blade.

Her intentions were clear, she wanted to kill me and her sister and her son who was in my house as well as anyone else who she could.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Well, he did try to purchase and was turned down, so he committed murder to get them

You've lost me here. Maybe I've missed something, who did he murder to get the guns?

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: You've lost me here. Maybe I've missed something, who did he murder to get the guns?

His own mother, you really are dumber than a bag of hammers. That has been in every news cast I have seen, he killed his mother first then stole her guns then went on his killing spree.
Also the coroner said all the kids were killed with the long gun, yet they found no long gun in the school, only pistols.
The media is on its own agenda to get rid of all the guns in this country especially any they consider military weapons.

Steve

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
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Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: Just don't start a war with us; remember what happened the last time! I just couldn't leave well-enough alone

But we still have our guns, so bring it on.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: His own mother, you really are dumber than a bag of hammers. That has been in every news cast I have seen, he killed his mother first then stole her guns then went on his killing spree.

I thought that his mother was at the school since she was a teacher. I didn't really listen to the news reports so I was wrong, which is why I was politely asking. Why do you find it necessary to personally attack to make a point? Nice combination there, overly aggressive and armed. I'm sure nothing bad could ever come from that.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: I thought that his mother was at the school since she was a teacher. I didn't really listen to the news reports so I was wrong, which is why I was politely asking. Why do you find it necessary to personally attack to make a point? Nice combination there, overly aggressive and armed. I'm sure nothing bad could ever come from that.

Because your ideas are nothing but stupid, they come from what you see in the news. We have already shown that the media has an agenda and that is to take all our guns away.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: You've lost me here. Maybe I've missed something, who did he murder to get the guns?

His mother.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: Just remember that most of us live in igloos and ski and snow-shoe everywhere we go, so dress warm (and use the winter grade oil in your guns). Wouldn't want you to freeze your weapon!

You would have to invade again because I don't go looking for trouble and thankfully trouble does not find me. But if it does, my weapons will perfectly warm and comfortable down here in Hill Billy Hell.

quote Originally posted by Bullet: Is this the Utopian Australia we are talking about?

Yep, a reply from an ill informed idiot. Now go look at the stats. 10,0000 gun deaths in the USA last year compared to 30 in Australia.
Yes there is ALWAYS going to be gun deaths.

Oh wait, we have less people. Ok times 13 and we reach USA population. so 390 compared to 10,0000. Seeing the problem yet???

No law will stop a criminal from obtaining whatever they want in illegal or even legal weapons. Without turning 3,000000 + citizens of the USA into criminals overnight, most if not all will hide them, by rounding up all "Assault" type weapons and high cap magazines you will never stop mass shootings. You can't now put the "Genie" back in the bottle. Owning or banning Assault type or semi automatic weapons is not the problem anyway it's an education problem and needs to start with our children. Our 2nd amendment is not for hunting, It's for protection of your self and family and country from any harm or invasion but mostly from a government that may get out of control.

Earl

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Yep, a reply from an ill informed idiot. Now go look at the stats. 10,0000 gun deaths in the USA last year compared to 30 in Australia. Yes there is ALWAYS going to be gun deaths. Oh wait, we have less people. Ok times 13 and we reach USA population. so 390 compared to 10,0000. Seeing the problem yet???

Ok so you take your guns away and you just use you vehicles.



So all guns are illegal in your country?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Yep, a reply from an ill informed idiot. Now go look at the stats. 10,0000 gun deaths in the USA last year compared to 30 in Australia. Yes there is ALWAYS going to be gun deaths. Oh wait, we have less people. Ok times 13 and we reach USA population. so 390 compared to 10,0000. Seeing the problem yet???

There is no 'problem', you also have a different culture. You are comparing apples to pears. Similar, but not the same. Unfair and somewhat dishonest to claim it is a fair comparison.

You will also find we have more non-gun related murders than you.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 12-22-2012).]

quote Originally posted by aqua-man: No law will stop a criminal from obtaining whatever they want in illegal or even legal weapons. Without turning 3,000000 + citizens of the USA into criminals overnight, most if not all will hide them, by rounding up all "Assault" type weapons and high cap magazines you will never stop mass shootings. You can't now put the "Genie" back in the bottle. Owning or banning Assault type or semi automatic weapons is not the problem anyway it's an education problem and needs to start with our children. Our 2nd amendment is not for hunting, It's for protection of your self and family and country from any harm or invasion but mostly from a government that may get out of control. Earl

You will see national registration happen before confiscation. Just like in the UK. "first make a list... "

Harvard Journal Study of Worldwide Data Obliterates Notion that Gun Ownership Correlates with Violence
Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy Confirms that Reducing Gun Ownership by Law-Abiding Citizens Does Nothing to Reduce Violence Worldwide

By now, any informed American is familiar with Dr. John R. Lott, Jr.'s famous axiom of "More Guns, Less Crime." In other words, American jurisdictions that allow law-abiding citizens to exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms are far safer and more crime-free than jurisdictions that enact stringent "gun control" laws.

Very simply, the ability of law-abiding citizens to possess firearms has helped reduce violent crime in America.

Now, a Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy study shows that this is not just an American phenomenon. According to the study, worldwide gun ownership rates do not correlate with higher murder or suicide rates. In fact, many nations with high gun ownership have significantly lower murder and suicide rates.

In their piece entitled Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and some Domestic Evidence, Don B. Kates and Gary Mauser eviscerate "the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths." In so doing, the authors provide fascinating historical insight into astronomical murder rates in the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and they dispel the myths that widespread gun ownership is somehow unique to the United States or that America suffers from the developed world's highest murder rate.

To the contrary, they establish that Soviet murder rates far exceeded American murder rates, and continue to do so today, despite Russia's extremely stringent gun prohibitions. By 2004, they show, the Russian murder rate was nearly four times higher than the American rate.

More fundamentally, Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser demonstrate that other developed nations such as Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark maintain high rates of gun ownership, yet possess murder rates lower than other developed nations in which gun ownership is much more restricted.

For example, handguns are outlawed in Luxembourg, and gun ownership extremely rare, yet its murder rate is nine times greater than in Germany, which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in Europe. As another example, Hungary's murder rate is nearly three times higher than nearby Austria's, but Austria's gun ownership rate is over eight times higher than Hungary's. "Norway," they note, "has far and away Western Europe's highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate. The Netherlands," in contrast, "has the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe (1.9%) ... yet the Dutch gun murder rate is higher than the Norwegian."

Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, "murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced." As the authors note, "strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world."

More, much more at the link.

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/...on/Gun-Ownership.htm

people just find other ways to kill each other, not to mention gun ownership stops other crimes.

Taking people guns away do not make a country safer, just the opposite.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Harvard Journal Study of Worldwide Data Obliterates Notion that Gun Ownership Correlates with Violence Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy Confirms that Reducing Gun Ownership by Law-Abiding Citizens Does Nothing to Reduce Violence Worldwide *snip*

All the logic and facts in the world wont convert people who are against our rights. The only thing that does, is a 'significant emotional event', when they wish they had one at the time.

Until then, the facts are either completely lost, or just twisted to 'prove' their point.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 12-22-2012).]

People seem to think for some unknown to me reason the all gun deaths are murders. They are not, the Medias twist things around to fit their own agenda and that agenda is to ban all guns from private ownership.
In the article I posted it shows that bans do not, repeat, DO NOT stop murder rates in countries that have the most stringent gun ownership laws.

You have to also remember all gun related deaths include cops shooting perps, legal gun owners defending themselves against someone out to kill them. You can say what you want but as I perused the Australian gun laws sites I found they now like to just beat people to death, bludgeon each other to death. So eliminating private gun ownership just makes victims of otherwise law abiding citizens.

I also found this article,

http://www.theage.com.au/ne...8/1115491042382.html

And this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/...the-drug-war/266505/

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Interesting addition to the gun control discussion. I recently signed a pro gun petition (We the People) listed on the gunsamerica web site and received a most interesting reply from the USG. This is found below:

A Message from President Obama about Your Petition on Reducing Gun Violence

By Bruce Reed, Chief of Staff to Vice President Biden

In the days since the tragedy in Newtown, Americans from all over the country have called for action to deter mass shootings and reduce gun violence. Hundreds of thousands of you have signed petitions on We the People.

I'm writing you today to thank you for speaking up, to update you on an important development, and to encourage you to continue engaging with the White House on this critical issue.

First, you should know that President Obama is paying close to attention to the public response to this tragedy. In fact, he sat down to record a message specifically for those of you who have joined the conversation using We the People. Watch it now:
On Wednesday, the President outlined a series of first steps we can take to begin the work of ending this cycle of violence. This is what he said:

"We know this is a complex issue that stirs deeply held passions and political divides. And as I said on Sunday night, there's no law or set of laws that can prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. We're going to need to work on making access to mental health care at least as easy as access to a gun. We're going to need to look more closely at a culture that all too often glorifies guns and violence. And any actions we must take must begin inside the home and inside our hearts.

But the fact that this problem is complex can no longer be an excuse for doing nothing. The fact that we can't prevent every act of violence doesn't mean we can't steadily reduce the violence, and prevent the very worst violence."

Vice President Biden has been asked to work with members of the Administration, Congress, and the general public to come up with a set of concrete policy proposals by next month -- proposals the President intends to push swiftly. The President asked the Vice President to lead this effort in part because he wrote and passed the 1994 Crime Bill that helped law enforcement bring down the rate of violent crime in America. That bill included the assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

As the Vice President's Chief of Staff, I'm going to do everything I can to ensure we run a process that includes perspectives from all sides of the issue, which is why I wanted to respond to your petition myself. Two decades ago, as domestic policy adviser in the Clinton White House, I first worked with Joe Biden as he fought to enact the Crime Bill, the assault weapons ban, and the Brady Bill. I will never forget what a key role the voices of concerned citizens like you played in that vital process.

The President called on Congress to pass important legislation "banning the sale of military-style assault weapons," "banning the sale of high-capacity ammunition clips," and "requiring background checks before all gun purchases, so that criminals can’t take advantage of legal loopholes to buy a gun from somebody who won’t take the responsibility of doing a background check at all."

An issue this serious and complex isn't going to be resolved with a single legislative proposal or policy prescription. And let's be clear, any action we take will respect the Second Amendment. As the President said:


"Look, like the majority of Americans, I believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms. This country has a strong tradition of gun ownership that's been handed down from generation to generation. Obviously across the country there are regional differences. There are differences between how people feel in urban areas and rural areas. And the fact is the vast majority of gun owners in America are responsible -- they buy their guns legally and they use them safely, whether for hunting or sport shooting, collection or protection.

But you know what, I am also betting that the majority -- the vast majority -- of responsible, law-abiding gun owners would be some of the first to say that we should be able to keep an irresponsible, law-breaking few from buying a weapon of war. I'm willing to bet that they don't think that using a gun and using common sense are incompatible ideas -- that an unbalanced man shouldn't be able to get his hands on a military-style assault rifle so easily; that in this age of technology, we should be able to check someone's criminal records before he or she can check out at a gun show; that if we work harder to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people, there would be fewer atrocities like the one in Newtown -- or any of the lesser-known tragedies that visit small towns and big cities all across America every day."

The President said it best: "Ultimately if this effort is to succeed it's going to require the help of the American people -- it's going to require all of you. If we're going to change things, it's going to take a wave of Americans -- mothers and fathers, daughters and sons, pastors, law enforcement, mental health professionals -- and, yes, gun owners -- standing up and saying 'enough' on behalf of our kids."

This obviously had little if anything at all to do with the petition that I signed so I decided to respond as follows:

This is not what my petition was about. I asked for enforcement of the current laws and not new and more restrictive legislation being passed to "control" certain weapons with a specific appearance. When will you ever learn that criminals are quite willing to violate any law with respect to firearms while the "average Joe" citizen is normally quite law abiding.

Now more than ever, the citizen has a specific need to protect themselves since the local authorities are incapable of doing so in a prompt manner. All your proposed legislation does is to remove some types of firearms from law abiding citizens choice of weapons. The criminal will continue to ignore the laws and arm themselves as they wish from illegal sources.

The recent incident in Newtown would not have been prevented by your proposed law since the weapons were stolen in the first place. A much more effective plan would include legislative changes which permit properly trained and qualified personnel to carry concealed weapons in schools and other currently "forbidden" locations. This would likely either prevent or greatly reduce the consequences to the victims (i.e., lesser number of people killed) under these circumstances.

Pass legislation for federal concealed carry permits good in all locations and you will have my support. I will oppose useless legislation that does nothing to address the actual prevention of crimes and arbitrarily bans a weapon because of its external appearance. That is the height of folly and will not have my personal support.

The interesting thing here is that I received a reply that said they could not respond due to the high volume of mail and provided an alternate web site for me to correspond with USG officials. I used that web site, composed an e-mail, sent it and got a message that the site could not be found.

Maybe this indicates that the upper level USG officials really are not interested in what any petition says or even in communicating with the citizens about potentially controversial issues. It looks like they have their agenda and nothing will sway them. Comments are welcomed from anyone.

Nelson

quote Originally posted by User00013170: All the logic and facts in the world wont convert people who are against our rights. The only thing that does, is a 'significant emotional event', when they wish they had one at the time. Until then, the facts are either completely lost, or just twisted to 'prove' their point.

I really hate to post this as it will just inflame those who think more guns won’t solve the problem.

Texas allows some teachers after they have taken special courses to carry their own guns, concealed in schools.

As far as I can find there have never been any shoot outs at any Texas schools, why because people who do that sort of thing are just cowards who go to gun free zones where they know there is no one able to defend themselves against an attack by someone able to defend themselves.

And here get even more pissed off at me.

I have to wonder just how many of those teachers who were killed in the most recent attacks thought,

“If I only had a gun!”

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Never mind, I couldn't get it to paste correctly.

[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 12-22-2012).]

quote [B]Originally posted by 84fiero123:[/ I have to wonder just how many of those teachers who were killed in the most recent attacks thought, “If I only had a gun!”

Not as many as those who's first thought was "it's way too easy to get guns"

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: Not as many as those who's first thought was "it's way too easy to get guns"

I really doubt that.

When I worked at Wal Mart in the sporting goods department I met a lot of people, some buying guns others not. The thing that most impressed me was the amount of concealed carry people who had a gun on them in the store.

Also the amount of women who came to buy a gun for self defense, for whatever reason.

You would never have known they had a gun on them had they not told me so. We talked about guns and gun laws at length and every dam one of them had passed a NICS check as well as gone through the other checks and courses to get their permit to carry concealed. See people who carry concealed are not just anyone with a gun. They have to go to courses that teach them the laws as well as when it is and isn’t allowed to use their weapon. But then all those people who think we are all nothing but nuts think anyone can carry concealed, they can’t.

Steve
Oh and just as a side note, I sold many, many guns to all sorts of people who wanted guns for just hunting, and I even sold a gun to an associate who passed the NICS check only to blow his brains out a few weeks later. Talk about a sinking feeling.

I had worked with the guy for months and never gave a second thought of selling him a gun. Others I did but not him see we were allowed to not sell a gun to anyone who passed the NICS check if they were drunk, or felt they were not fit to own a gun. Just as anyone who sells guns has that same right.

When I went in the night after the person I sold the gun to kill himself I was told by the manager who also signed off on his gun purchase. She told me what happened and that the state police were there to talk to me. I talked to the trooper at length and then was sent back to work. The manager was still waiting for me when I was threw and asked if I wanted to go home because of what had happened. I said I always knew someday I would sell someone a gun and they would do something stupid with it, I just never thought it would be someone I knew.

I went to work that night and sold 2 more guns that night, even one that was the same model as the one I sold the guy who killed himself. But hey it was bird hunting season.
Some people are stupid and you can’t fix stupid.
Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: As for the idiotic posts I have read in this thread there is no changing idiots unfortunately. CNN ran some surveys over the last few days and published the results world wide. Maybe not America, who knows. Result. 70% of Americans want gun controls bought in. 60% believe assault rifles are not needed and should be banned. So as a democracy listen to your own people.

Thank you for trying to inject some common sense here, but as you said it is a lost cause. Seems our countries are very similar, nice safe places to live.

With that I'll leave this thread to those that prefer ranting and raving over polite debate. I've had my fun winding up the zealots; almost too easy.

Take care everyone. Hope Santa brings you lots of ammo.

Rick

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Never mind, I couldn't get it to paste correctly.

post the link

steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: CNN ran some surveys over the last few days and published the results world wide. Maybe not America, who knows. Result. 70% of Americans want gun controls bought in. 60% believe assault rifles are not needed and should be banned. So as a democracy listen to your own people.

No, as a constitutional republic we are protected by the ever changing whims of the mob. + I would not pay too much attention to a CNN poll on gun control anyhow.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: No, as a constitutional republic we are protected by the ever changing whims of the mob. + I would not pay too much attention to a CNN poll on gun control anyhow.

Unless you poll every single citizen, the poll is skewed.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: and I even sold a gun to an associate who passed the NICS check only to blow his brains out a few weeks later.

I have to post one more after reading this.

Thank you for clearly going against all the stupid posts you've put here about gun safety and all the careful checks that are made. You said it much clearer than I could. You just closed the case, and shot yourself in the foot (pun intended).

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: As for the idiotic posts I have read in this thread there is no changing idiots unfortunately. CNN ran some surveys over the last few days and published the results world wide. Maybe not America, who knows. Result. 70% of Americans want gun controls bought in. 60% believe assault rifles are not needed and should be banned. So as a democracy listen to your own people.

So you go around calling us IDIOTS and you site a CNN (left wing liberal cesspool) poll as representing all of America.

And for your information the USA is a Representative republic not a democracy.

And you call us IDIOTS.

Yes, all the anti gun people fail to point out that maybe all her guns WERE locked up like they want, and he killed her to get the keys. We will never know if she locked them all up or not. From what I heard, he shot her 4 times in the head.

I liked what the NRA said...." the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is by a good guy with a gun ."

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: I have to post one more after reading this. Thank you for clearly going against all the stupid posts you've put here about gun safety and all the careful checks that are made. You said it much clearer than I could. You just closed the case, and shot yourself in the foot (pun intended).

Found out later he had been hospitalized for mental problems in another state and he lied on his NICS application. What we need is more mental health help in this country, not more gun control.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: I have to post one more after reading this. Thank you for clearly going against all the stupid posts you've put here about gun safety and all the careful checks that are made. You said it much clearer than I could. You just closed the case, and shot yourself in the foot (pun intended).

What is your point, would you feel better if he had jumped out a window? Fortunately for us it doesn’t matter what you think about this.