This is just my opinion and you are all welcome to voice yours, but I think we as America DO need to make a BIG move towords getting controle of our violent Nation and guns are central to the violence.

So my poposal is to make a federal death penalty for the persons or persons who use a firearm or explosive or pioson during a violent crime.

After days of horable news and gunhating opinions, I have yet to hear ANYONE say what should befall those "suspects" that survive mass murders. Extra time,...LOL LOL that is a joke and NOT a viable option that I could consider.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-17-2012).]

i dont think that would work as most people who do these crimes are KIA. look at columbine or the shootings in wisconsin at the temple or northern illinois university or sandy...... all of them commited suicide or were killed by police. so you plan would deter nothing,

I would normally agree with you, but the logic behind what you say does not pan out.

Almost all of the shootings have been in states that have the strictest gun control laws. So... obviously that's not working.


If you're willing to look at the whole picture, and not just focus on the guns, you'll see that almost every person who's been involved in these mass murders have had major psychiatric problems. (and incidentally... they've all been white, which I don't know what to make of yet either).


I was talking with some co-workers today, and I realized something... have you ever heard of the Baker Act? It's a law, apparently ONLY in Florida... that allows an individual to be arrested and sent to a mental institution for evaluation. It's completely paid for by the state of Florida, and the person is held for 3 days under the law, for psychiatric evaluation. The law works really well... it really does.

I wonder why more states don't have this?


Let's be real honest about this though. The kid intended to kill himself anyway, the gun was just a simple tool for him to get that done with. If he didn't have guns, he probably would have built a bomb.

For what it's worth, I don't own any guns, except a paintball gun.

I believe any form of mass murder, regardless of weapon used, should bring capital punishment. Violent crime, as well, and not dependent on the weapon. If some fool goes on a rampage with an axe and hacks up 20 or 30 people before being stopped, it shouldn't be considered "better" that he used an axe instead of a gun, IMO.

It's no secret I don't think gun control is the answer. Prevention is a nice idea and we have many laws on the books already, but we need a way to stop violence once it begins as well. Police cannot be everywhere, and that's where I think responsible armed citizens come in. I'm not saying we should arm all the teachers at school, but should a school or other facility want to ban weapons, they need to have some way to respond to a violent threat should one get past their security.

What worries me is the gun control cries after an event like this bring legislation that typically does nothing to address violence, yet it does hinder law abiding citizens in their self protection, hunting, recreation, etc. What we typically get is knee-jerk feel good legislation that doesn't help. Look at the "assault weapons ban" as an example. It banned weapons based mostly on appearance. How would that do anything to enhance safety?

Gun control is no more effective at stopping gun violence than drug control has been at stopping drug abuse.

You'll hear much talk about "assault weapons" and "military style" weapons in the near future. I think this video explains why that's misleading at best.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-17-2012).]

I believe in the system we have in place currently as far as “control”. I do agree with you as far as gun crimes…of course I believe we are in the day of age that forensic evidence is able to prove guilt and if you murder, you in turn deserve to be put to death.

However the net has been bombarded with “gun ban” talk… which I believe is so incredibly stupid it almost makes me speechless. People with wrong intent don’t give 2 shits about laws and what is legal/illegal; they will get guns just as easily as they traffic drugs. The only thing a gun ban will do is make the innocent defenseless. I carry, and I will for the rest of my life and should the situation ever arise that I must put my life in risk to possibly save those around me, I would do so gladly.

N/M

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 12-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I would normally agree with you, but the logic behind what you say does not pan out. Almost all of the shootings have been in states that have the strictest gun control laws. So... obviously that's not working. If you're willing to look at the whole picture, and not just focus on the guns, you'll see that almost every person who's been involved in these mass murders have had major psychiatric problems. (and incidentally... they've all been white, which I don't know what to make of yet either). I was talking with some co-workers today, and I realized something... have you ever heard of the Baker Act? It's a law, apparently ONLY in Florida... that allows an individual to be arrested and sent to a mental institution for evaluation. It's completely paid for by the state of Florida, and the person is held for 3 days under the law, for psychiatric evaluation. The law works really well... it really does. I wonder why more states don't have this? Let's be real honest about this though. The kid intended to kill himself anyway, the gun was just a simple tool for him to get that done with. If he didn't have guns, he probably would have built a bomb. For what it's worth, I don't own any guns, except a paintball gun.

we have laws similar to the baker law in wisconsin......id say dont ask me how i knwo but lets just say the sheriffs department made me stay at a padded room for 3 days. worst experiance ever all ill say is next time im not using an extenstion cord.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: i dont think that would work as most people who do these crimes are KIA. look at columbine or the shootings in wisconsin at the temple or northern illinois university or sandy...... all of them commited suicide or were killed by police. so you plan would deter nothing,

Accually you are wrong, The VAST majority of people that use fire arms to commit crimes, survive compleetly unharmed and do time. Highly publisized mass muders are the extreem minority of violent gun crimes.

It's not just media bias why you won't hear much about stories like these.
It's also because they were stopped before it became "big news."

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I would normally agree with you, but the logic behind what you say does not pan out. Almost all of the shootings have been in states that have the strictest gun control laws. So... obviously that's not working. If you're willing to look at the whole picture, and not just focus on the guns, you'll see that almost every person who's been involved in these mass murders have had major psychiatric problems. (and incidentally... they've all been white, which I don't know what to make of yet either). I was talking with some co-workers today, and I realized something... have you ever heard of the Baker Act? It's a law, apparently ONLY in Florida... that allows an individual to be arrested and sent to a mental institution for evaluation. It's completely paid for by the state of Florida, and the person is held for 3 days under the law, for psychiatric evaluation. The law works really well... it really does. I wonder why more states don't have this? Let's be real honest about this though. The kid intended to kill himself anyway, the gun was just a simple tool for him to get that done with. If he didn't have guns, he probably would have built a bomb. For what it's worth, I don't own any guns, except a paintball gun.

Who are yuo responding too? My form of gun controle is punishing the user, NOT the gun? In other words the person that misuses the gun pays the ultimate price so those that do use guns lawfully do not pay any toll for the crimes of others.

Its too bad they don't come up with a kind of police unit for the school district.. Most large University's have their own police force, maybe a local school district police force that has enough officers too have some roaming the schools and grounds..

Then again that would cost money, which would mean higher taxes too fund it.. Would people be willing to pay higher taxes too provide extra safety for their child at school? Would be interesting to find out..

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 12-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Accually you are wrong, The VAST majority of people that use fire arms to commit crimes, survive compleetly unharmed and do time. Highly publisized mass muders are the extreem minority of violent gun crimes.

your right the vast majority of crimes commited... but you didnt say crimes you said mass murders. theres a difference.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: your right the vast majority of crimes commited... but you didnt say crimes you said mass murders. theres a difference.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: So my poposal is to make a federal death penalty for the persons or persons who use of a firearm or explosive or pioson during a violent crime.

From the first post. The rest is just "fluff"

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-17-2012).]

NO NO NO God I'm getting sick of people wanting to destroy our rights and turn us into a socialist 3rd word country. GUNS do not kill the Funkn idiots that pick them up do. If you want to ban something ban the violent video games these kids play, ban MTV it only plays trash shows and teaches kids not to respect others. Families need to spend time together going to church. People it is not guns it is the liberal society we have turning these people into killers. God I am getting so sick of idiots thinking gun laws will stop people from killing. If you take away ARs or AKs then they will go to sawed off shotguns that will do more damage than any AR 15 will. A homemade pipe bomb will do more damage than an AK 47. DO NOT get caught up in the LIBERAL STUPIDITY. PLEASE wake up and stop eating away at our constitution and ripping our rights away from use a piece at a time. If people in this country do not wake up soon we will not have a country worth living in. I am not calling anyone here directly stupid I am just sick of Liberal idiot ideas that make no sense. The nurse that hid behind the desk could have shot the BAStrd if she was allowed to have a gun. The principle could have taken him out if she had a gun. The truth is we need teachers and guards packing. We need more good people carrying guns to stop the trash from preying on innocent people. Any time you ban something you only hurt innocent people the trash will have it no matter what so you just make more victims is all. I’m going to have to leave this forum for a little while I cannot take it. My chest is hurting as I write this. I had to stop watching the news and turn off the TV when Olamo comes on. I am so disappointed in the USA and what it is becoming I just hate seeing it.

quote Originally posted by F355spider: NO NO NO God I'm getting sick of people wanting to destroy our rights and turn us into a socialist 3rd word country. GUNS do not kill the Funkn idiots that pick them up do. If you want to ban something ban the violent video games these kids play, ban MTV it only plays trash shows and teaches kids not to respect others. Families need to spend time together going to church. People it is not guns it is the liberal society we have turning these people into killers. God I am getting so sick of idiots thinking gun laws will stop people from killing. If you take away ARs or AKs then they will go to sawed off shotguns that will do more damage than any AR 15 will. A homemade pipe bomb will do more damage than an AK 47. DO NOT get caught up in the LIBERAL STUPIDITY. PLEASE wake up and stop eating away at our constitution and ripping our rights away from use a piece at a time. If people in this country do not wake up soon we will not have a country worth living in. I am not calling anyone here directly stupid I am just sick of Liberal idiot ideas that make no sense. The nurse that hid behind the desk could have shot the BAStrd if she was allowed to have a gun. The principle could have taken him out if she had a gun. The truth is we need teachers and guards packing. We need more good people carrying guns to stop the trash from preying on innocent people. Any time you ban something you only hurt innocent people the trash will have it no matter what so you just make more victims is all. I’m going to have to leave this forum for a little while I cannot take it. My chest is hurting as I write this. I had to stop watching the news and turn off the TV when Olamo comes on. I am so disappointed in the USA and what it is becoming I just hate seeing it.

Dude, read more than just the topic. The topic does say gun control, but his very first post is about stricter punishment for the perpetrator.

quote Originally posted by F355spider: NO NO NO God I'm getting sick of people wanting to destroy our rights and turn us into a socialist 3rd word country. GUNS do not kill the Funkn idiots that pick them up do. If you want to ban something ban the violent video games these kids play, ban MTV it only plays trash shows and teaches kids not to respect others. Families need to spend time together going to church. People it is not guns it is the liberal society we have turning these people into killers. God I am getting so sick of idiots thinking gun laws will stop people from killing. If you take away ARs or AKs then they will go to sawed off shotguns that will do more damage than any AR 15 will. A homemade pipe bomb will do more damage than an AK 47. DO NOT get caught up in the LIBERAL STUPIDITY. PLEASE wake up and stop eating away at our constitution and ripping our rights away from use a piece at a time. If people in this country do not wake up soon we will not have a country worth living in. I am not calling anyone here directly stupid I am just sick of Liberal idiot ideas that make no sense. The nurse that hid behind the desk could have shot the BAStrd if she was allowed to have a gun. The principle could have taken him out if she had a gun. The truth is we need teachers and guards packing. We need more good people carrying guns to stop the trash from preying on innocent people. Any time you ban something you only hurt innocent people the trash will have it no matter what so you just make more victims is all. I’m going to have to leave this forum for a little while I cannot take it. My chest is hurting as I write this. I had to stop watching the news and turn off the TV when Olamo comes on. I am so disappointed in the USA and what it is becoming I just hate seeing it.

Wow, all I have to say is that we agree with you I looked at the posts and did not see any of them sugest more gun resrictions

My wife and I were discussing this.She thought when we got married that she was a Democrat. So she was reading a post to me she saw on another forum. It was from a poster in the UK bashing us for allowing firearms to be owned by citizens and saying we need to remove them from our population and make owning them illegal. She wrote a rather well worded rebuttal. She found out after marrying me that she wasn't a Democrat, as I enlightened her on what she beleived in being not what the Democrats "fought" for but what the Republicans "fight" for. Now, like me she is registered Independant. Anyways, this got us talking about gun controll. I had 2 suggestions which she agreed with, although in reality neither will "fix" anything for reasons I can explain.

1. When you purchase a gun, you should have a psych evalluation and if you are shown to have some sort of mental defect that tends to result in violence, you should not be able to purchase a gun. Problem: As we saw in the recent school shooting, the weilder of the guns was not the owner. They were his parents guns, atleast that's what my wife read. So, in essence, while this may stop them from purchasing a weapon, that does not mean it will stop someone else from purchasing a weapon that they could get their hands on.

2. Private gun sales should only be allowed on a consignment type basis, meaning done through a consignment service or shop which will have to process the paper work for the new owner and conduct the background check. Any other type of gun ownership transfer should be illegal, with the exception of inheritance which should still require a background check for the new owner. If they fail the background check then the gun could be sent to consignment to be sold. Problem: Criminals are criminals, so it's not like they would follow this law anyways. The ATF or other law enforcement would have to actually do physical checks on gun owners requiring them to produce the gun they bought or the paperwork showing it was sold through a consignment service. I also haven't figured out a gun being purchased or given as a gift. I think that should be treated like inheritance, if the background check of the intended owner is not approved then it must be sold on consignment. Another problem is this only helps for future gun sales, past gun sales would be much harder to work into this system as there are plenty of people who own guns now that are not registered.

I don't really know what we can do, but I know I am against outlawing gun ownership as my wife is also. While we currently do not own a gun and I have no immediate plans to purchase one, when my Father passes I've been willed his 357 revolver. It is something I will probably never shoot again, but it's also something with meaning to me as it's the first real gun I ever shot. The first time i shot it was when I was on a camping trip when I was 8 years old. My Father let me shoot ti with his immediate suprvision so I knew what it could do. It just about knocked me on my butt, and about flung my arms completely over my head. I knew to never touch that gun after that, but it has always been my Fathers and I am his only son.

Also, I don't see what "outlawing" guns would accomplish anyways. Most of the mass killings are murder suicide types of situations. In reallity, all one would have to do is switch to strapped on pipe bombs which would still take out everyone in a class room and the instigator. They are not hard to make. If you outlaw one weapon, another will take it's place.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 12-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: In reallity, all one would have to do is switch to strapped on pipe bombs which would still take out everyone in a class room and the instigator. They are not hard to make. If you outlaw one weapon, another will take it's place.

This. Killers will always take the path of least resistance. Violent people, like water at the dam, will find the weakest crack to slip through. It translates from the battlefield to the back alleys and now to our schools. We can try to make gun unobtainable, and a determined murderer WILL create the next most time/cost effective weapon. That aint a knife.

I dont know what the solution is.

quote I have to admit that I think we ,.....Do need more PEOPLE controle

You can make all the laws you want and they will NEVER stop EVIL people.....LAWS do not stop EVIL people...laws only punish them if they are caught alive after the damage is done.

quote Originally posted by F355spider: NO NO NO God I'm getting sick of people wanting to destroy our rights and turn us into a socialist 3rd word country. GUNS do not kill the Funkn idiots that pick them up do. If you want to ban something ban the violent video games these kids play, ban MTV it only plays trash shows and teaches kids not to respect others. Families need to spend time together going to church. People it is not guns it is the liberal society we have turning these people into killers. God I am getting so sick of idiots thinking gun laws will stop people from killing. If you take away ARs or AKs then they will go to sawed off shotguns that will do more damage than any AR 15 will. A homemade pipe bomb will do more damage than an AK 47. DO NOT get caught up in the LIBERAL STUPIDITY. PLEASE wake up and stop eating away at our constitution and ripping our rights away from use a piece at a time. If people in this country do not wake up soon we will not have a country worth living in. I am not calling anyone here directly stupid I am just sick of Liberal idiot ideas that make no sense. The nurse that hid behind the desk could have shot the BAStrd if she was allowed to have a gun. The principle could have taken him out if she had a gun. The truth is we need teachers and guards packing. We need more good people carrying guns to stop the trash from preying on innocent people. Any time you ban something you only hurt innocent people the trash will have it no matter what so you just make more victims is all. I’m going to have to leave this forum for a little while I cannot take it. My chest is hurting as I write this. I had to stop watching the news and turn off the TV when Olamo comes on. I am so disappointed in the USA and what it is becoming I just hate seeing it.

WOW, you sir are an out of control idiot. Yes, idiot. You are raving on crap and it has no basis of fact.

quote Originally posted by Bullet: You can make all the laws you want and they will NEVER stop EVIL people.....LAWS do not stop EVIL people...laws only punish them if they are caught alive after the damage is done.

Evil, or sick.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: He may have been raving, but he is correct. The same people that are trying to remove our rights ( not just the 2nd amendment ) are the same ones that are clearly trying to turn us socialist. And they do control ( indirectly, due to complacency ) the media and its used to push their agendas. The facts are everywhere.

Everywhere in your head. I don't see people with home made bombs roaming the streets in any country with sensible gun controls. If the American system is so good why is the country falling into such decline?

The radicals scream socialist with no facts to back them up. Come to Australia, the only country to survive the global financial crash and then tell me you have more freedom than we do. I have travelled the world, and frankly, you don't have freedom in the USA. America is more restricted and controlled than the other western countries you think are the devil.

Oh then you are going to scream we have no guns. Bullshit. We got rid of the stupid ones. You know, the ones just designed to kill people rapidly. Otherwise you are quite free to own guns, if you pass the tests to prove your sanity and are willing to lock then in appropriate gun safes when not in use.

Those that think they are free in the USA have usually never seen or experienced the rest of the world first hand. Your government is brainwashing you and you are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

Now present me with a counter argument based on experience and fact. Not Brainwashed Bullshit.

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I worked with a man who grew up in Latvia, where thay had all guns registered who owned what and their addresses. This was in the 1930s-40s. When the Nazis invaded Latvia, then located all gun owners and quickly confiscated all the weapons and left the population was defenseless. What is needed is population control and if people are not allowed to own guns that kill others next it will be you can't own knives because they can kill people, baseball bats, because they can kill people, rocks, because they can kill people etc. It is a people problem.

One thing I haven't heard discussed much is why so many tragedies now? Guns haven't changed in any significant way in decades, nor have gun laws to my knowledge. What's the underlying cause? We can argue about how to deal with the effects or minimize them but without looking at the cause I don't know if anything significant will change.

A very flawed argument Old Lar. I expected better from someone with so much life experience. Latvia had no hope again'st Nazi Germany. In fact show me the proof to back up that argument. An enemy has invaded, lets stay home and wait for them to round up our guns. Bullshit.

As for the rest I could kill you with a finger. Automatic weapons are just not needed. Trying to compare them with a baseball bat doesn't stick at all.

The guy that killed the kids the other day proved he was a gutless ****wit. Without access to guns he wouldn't have done what he did. He wouldn't have went there with a knife, he wouldn't have made a bomb. He would have sulked about how ****ed up his life was and killed himself eventually, or at worse killed his mum.

He killed himself because he had done the crime and wouldn't face the consequenses. If he had no gun he would have remained a gutless wonder.

I am very against strict gun control, even though I don`t own any guns worth mentioning, but in all of this, taking the "right" to own almost any gun out of the mix why do people "need" to own an assault rifle.
As I posted, I`m not questioning the right to own one, I just don`t see the point of having one unless I guess it`s either A: to blow the heck out of cans or B: to show it off to select friends.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Oh then you are going to scream we have no guns. Bullshit. We got rid of the stupid ones. You know, the ones just designed to kill people rapidly. Otherwise you are quite free to own guns, if you pass the tests to prove your sanity and are willing to lock then in appropriate gun safes when not in use.

In the US, if you have any history of mental illness or domestic violence or are under a restraining order you aren't allowed to buy a handgun. (not sure about rifles/shotguns)
It is also US law that you must secure your weapons so no one unauthorized can get access to them.
So that's pretty similar to your enlightened Austrailian laws.

As for banning the "stupid" guns, can you tell me what criteria they're judged on? Is it a specific feature, power level, or is it a government approved list?
That has been a trouble point here during our last run with an "assault weapons" ban, in that how do you define an assault weapon and differentiate it from a hunting or sporting rifle? (ignoring for the moment that our Constitution isn't about hunting or sport).

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: If he had no gun he would have remained a gutless wonder.

So, how do you handle gun crime in Australia with the legal weapons you allow?
I find that logic simplistic and rhetorical. There's any number of "what if's" that could have changed that outcome. Saying "if he had no gun" doesn't mean if we had Australian style gun laws that he wouldn't have had a gun, or used a different type of weapon. (like the Chinese incident the same day with a mass stabbing in a school).
If someone gets their hands on a gun, legally or otherwise, how does the "if only he didn't have a gun" logic help?

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-18-2012).]

As a pro gun owner, I do have to say guns with large magazines (assault type) dont seem appropriate for anything except warfare. I have no problem with using one for hunting...but I see no need for anything with a clip larger than 5 or 6 shots. If you cant hit say a deer with 5 rapid succession shots, you need more practice. This kid in Cn was reported to have pocketfulls of loaded 30 round clips with him. I do agree we do need more serious penalties. People caught an convicted of carrying concealed weapons with NO permit, get out of jail in a few minutes, usually with paying a small fine. Give THOSE kind of people things like mandatory 5 year sentences with NO EARLY OUT crap.

Is this the Utopian Australia we are talking about?

Formula88, I may be wrong but most of the people I know don`t hunt with an AK-47 which I consider to be an assault rifle.
I don`t have the "need" to own any guns I just don`t mention that I have a bb gun and maybe a 22 rifle.
On the other hand I think people have the right to own most guns, I was trying to ask about the desire to have a gun that most people would consider an assault rifle.

edit: I stand informed. I talked to a hunting buddy of mine and apparently here in Texas and probably other parts of the country something like an AK-47 is good for hunting wild hogs.

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 12-18-2012).]

Sure because something like a mother drowning her children one by one would never happen right? If someone is sick enough to think killing people is a good idea not having access to guns will not stop them.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: A very flawed argument Old Lar. I expected better from someone with so much life experience. Latvia had no hope again'st Nazi Germany. In fact show me the proof to back up that argument. An enemy has invaded, lets stay home and wait for them to round up our guns. Bullshit. As for the rest I could kill you with a finger. Automatic weapons are just not needed. Trying to compare them with a baseball bat doesn't stick at all. The guy that killed the kids the other day proved he was a gutless ****wit. Without access to guns he wouldn't have done what he did. He wouldn't have went there with a knife, he wouldn't have made a bomb. He would have sulked about how ****ed up his life was and killed himself eventually, or at worse killed his mum. He killed himself because he had done the crime and wouldn't face the consequenses. If he had no gun he would have remained a gutless wonder.

Nothing should be changed in the laws that affect us all, because of something so rare as this, done by someone so mentally rare as this.

...What can be done is enforce laws we already have better.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-18-2012).]

Àssault rifle - switchable between fully automatic (more than one bullet fired per pull of the trigger), and single bullet per trigger pull. Reloads the chamber after firing.

Semiautomatic - one shot per trigger pull, reloads the chamber after firing.

The shooter at Sandy Hook did not use an assault rifle, he used a semi automatic.

POINT IN FACT - the Constitution of the United States specifically guarantees the citizenry the right AND MEANS to overthrow the government when the government becomes abusive of the rights of the citizens. At the time of the framing of the document, the average hunting rifle was more accurate and had better range than the smooth-bore musket used by the military. The citizens now have been slowly stripped of the capability to protect themselves from government - the whole point of government induced gun control laws.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: A very flawed argument The guy that killed the kids the other day proved he was a gutless ****wit. Without access to guns he wouldn't have done what he did. He wouldn't have went there with a knife, he wouldn't have made a bomb. He would have sulked about how ****ed up his life was and killed himself eventually, or at worse killed his mum.

Prove he wouldn't have done those other things or found another way.

Recently there was an attack at a school in China. Did the guy use a gun? Nope a knife.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/...fe-attack/index.html

How about this for a idea. No gun? I'll just drive my car into a preschool.

http://articles.latimes.com...aug/12/local/me-3379

If someone wants to kill or injure people they will find a way. If guns aren't available to them, well there are other things they could do instead. To beleive taking guns away diffuses the problem is just not true.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 12-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Without access to guns he wouldn't have done what he did. He wouldn't have went there with a knife, he wouldn't have made a bomb. He would have sulked about how ****ed up his life was and killed himself eventually, or at worse killed his mum.

What gives you this idea? Blowing stuff up is not cowardly?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-18-2012).]

Wait, stop the presses. Someone living in California calling for more gun control. Your thread title implies you are budging on what you previously held as a hard lined issue. I doubt very seriously you've budged your stance much at all. Not sure why you think this is breaking news.


Tragic event, I feel sorrow for all those involved.

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