i think the original poster's implicit question is "why do the german police use so much less lethal force than american police?". even if we multiply their number by 4 to match the per capita usage, it's still remarkably low. it may well be that we live in a much more violent society as a whole. i think there's good historical precedent for that.

i'm a firm believer in the right of individual americans to keep and bear arms, and i think it has little to do with recreational use, the need to put food on our tables or even to repel hostile intruders in our homes. the founders made it clear that they were most concerned about keeping overweening, overreaching government in its' place. the first battle of the revolution was very clearly about our own government attempting to disarm its citizens, and we've seen numerous examples of what happens when governments succeed in this endeavor.

one of the unfortunate consequences of that is that the irresponsible among us have guns, but we believe the cost is worth it in the long run. it's a shame that we tend to use our weapons on each other so much, but the risks of potential tyranny and genocide are greater.

as for why the german police shoot so much less, maybe they work in a less target-rich environment. or maybe they're just much better shots?

quote Originally posted by yellowstone Just read the article and you'll know.

Welcome to my world, and yes I did read the article. Good luck on controlling what people post in this thread.

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: Or are we not allowed to dissagree with you?

Absolutely, that's why I participate in a discussion forum. To be told that I'm a Nazi (which I'm VERY far from being) or to "go home" is not "disagreeing". At least in my book...

You should read this: Reductio ad Hitlerum

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: Absolutely, that's why I participate in a discussion forum. To be told that I'm a Nazi (which I'm VERY far from being) or to "go home" is not "disagreeing". At least in my book... You should read this: Reductio ad Hitlerum

Just so we are clear... I did not say you "are" a Nazi. I said Nazi "way". Are you disagreeing by saying that the Nazi's did "not" want to ban all guns? You said that you believe that all guns should be banned. That statement is a Nazi way! I would make that same statment to "anyone" who belives that "all guns should be banned". I also did not "tell" you to go home. I said that you are free to leave if you are not happy with the ways of the USA. We did not force you to come here and we will not force you to stay.

Sorry for completely misunderstanding you, then. It vaguely sounded like that was what you were implying but, alas, looks like I was wrong.

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: Just so we are clear... I did not say you "are" a Nazi. I said Nazi "way". Are you disagreeing by saying that the Nazi's did "not" want to ban all guns? You said that you believe that all guns should be banned. That statement is a Nazi way! I would make that same statment to "anyone" who belives that "all guns should be banned". I also did not "tell" you to go home. I said that you are free to leave if you are not happy with the ways of the USA. We did not force you to come here and we will not force you to stay.

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-13-2012).]

Per Godwin's Law, JimmyS is disqualified and this thread is awarded to yellowstone.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: Apart from the idiotic comment (in the context of this thread), about 15.4 million people living in Germany (out of a population of about 81 million) are actually not German (even though some may have a German passport).

A whopping 19% vs 98.5%. Sure, that is comparable.

How many racially based gangs are there in Germany? Want to compare a list between US racially based gangs vs. German. I'll bet the US has a lot more than 4X the number Germany has.

http://www.oregonlive.com/n...f406e678717ad5fb79b8

LOS ANGELES _ The U.S. foreign-born population has risen to its highest level since 1920, with 13 percent of all those living in the nation in 2010 having been born elsewhere, a new report from the Census Bureau shows.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: A whopping 19% vs 98.5%. Sure, that is comparable.

Where do you get the 98.5% from? I found 12%...

quote The foreign-born population in the United States tripled in the past four decades and currently totals about 37 million, or nearly 12 percent of the total population.

http://www.gcir.org/immigration/facts/statistics

based on his post from page 1, i think he's saying that 98%+ of americans are descended from immigrants. i think his underlying argument is about ethnic diversity.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: This thread is not about individual gun ownership but about the willingness and frequency of police to use their guns on people.

Respectfully - while you may want to keep the discussion there, the article you posted for reference makes references to how "gun-crazy" America is. ( "not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. of A." "America shoots itself in the foot with its manic love of guns.") Kinda puts a damper on a civilized discussion when right off the bat anyone pro-gun is labed "gun crazy" by your source. Perhaps you should post a less-biased source if you want a less biased discussion... just sayin'...

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 05-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by lurker: based on his post from page 1, i think he's saying that 98%+ of americans are descended from immigrants. i think his underlying argument is about ethnic diversity.

Bingo. The US has a lot more different demographic groups than Germany. The "native" population is less than 1.5%. Even among "whites" there is a dramatic difference in cultures of their homelands. Nearly every demographic group has their own organized crime.

I would like to see how the German police would deal with a gang like MS13. Just in Los Angeles there are 500 Hispanic gangs. I doubt there are 500 gangs in all of Germany.

http://www.streetgangs.com/hispanic

I'll bet the German police would wet themselves then run home when a typical LA gang banger pulls out a bigger gun than them. Of course the German police have it a lot easier since their immigration policy is much stricter and they don't have near the number of millions of illegals as the US has.

Germany is also not on the boarder with a country that is on the verge of becoming a narco-state. If the US had another Canada on our southern boarder, then there would be a lot less gang and drug problems.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: With some people here it's really impossible to carry on a civilized discussion.

I think you could add a bunch of words after "civilized" and before "disscussion" to get closer to the ugly truth of it.
It's quite sad how easily some people can degrade "open & respectful", to "personal & insulting".

I sometimes wonder what this "disscussion board" will look like in 10 years.

Yellowstone,
I continue to find you intelligent & respectful.
WHEREVER you may call home.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: With some people here it's really impossible to carry on a civilized discussion. Use of force by the police has been an issue in the US, as far as I follow the news. So, I posted this article from Germany (because I don't closely follow the news from other places, like Japan or Ecuador) to provide a contrast of another western, civilized society where police seems to be taking a different approach while still providing safety for citizens. What happens? Basically, I'm a Nazi (or, us Germans all are) and I should go back home... Is that really the best you've got? Why are you participating in a discussion forum?

See, I told you this would happen. Although, you clearly mentioned the subject in the title is about "Police and the amount of bullets against people" some here will jump on you and will use any excuse in calling you names or to label you.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. LEOs in America have a long bad history of using excessive force or in this case-the amount of rounds used (even when giving the chance to seek protection behind a wall, car, or building). Here's a case that made major headlines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...adou_Diallo_shooting

Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-13-2012).]

While I think this is interesting information, I also think it's important to note that these are two distinctly different cultures with different laws and totally different socio-economic societies and significantly different histories and national interests. To compare these two countries is like comparing apples to oranges. It just doesn't compute. Interesting yes, significant, doubtful.
------------------
Ron
The key thing is to wake up breathing! All the rest can be fixed. (Except Stupid - You can't fix that)
Always remember these words of wisdom.

"The Lord must truly love fools, for he made them in abundance."

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-13-2012).]

I wonder if Germany has these types of gangs?

The biggest gang in America.

http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/54162036

"German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011.....a stark reminder that not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. "

And if they used zero bullets for the NEXT 70 years it still wouldn't undo the past.

Equally, Toddster...if you gave every black person in the USA a house, cars , smartphones and flatscreen TV's, THAT wouldn't undo the past either Just sayin'

quote Originally posted by Toddster: "German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011.....a stark reminder that not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. " And if they used zero bullets for the NEXT 70 years it still wouldn't undo the past.

Aaaaaaaaaaand - here we go again....


(Hint: he's Austrian, just like HITLER!!!!!!!!!! )

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: While I think this is interesting information, I also think it's important to note that these are two distinctly different cultures with different laws and totally different socio-economic societies and significantly different histories and national interests. To compare these two countries is like comparing apples to oranges. It just doesn't compute. Interesting yes, significant, doubtful.

This I agree with.

Another factor that I would like to add is the different way that police are trained in America vs other countries. As a law enforcement officer, I have come across fellow officers from a number of different places in the world. I have found that training is quite different from country-to-country. This along with the officer's experiences on the job is going to mold that officer's mindset on how to handle a particular situation. What one officer from one country might see as a deadly force situation could be taken in a totally different context in another part of the world.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: And if they used zero bullets for the NEXT 70 years it still wouldn't undo the past.

Really? How childish. I'm sure there are many Japanese, from Hiroshima and Nagasaki in particular, who probably feel the same way about the USA....

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: I agree. The thing is that this is the article I originally read: http://www.spiegel.de/panor...dienst-a-832037.html Since that wouldn't have been very helpful on this forum, I searched for an English-language article and posted the first one I found. The original article in DER SPIEGEL does not contain comparisons to the US.

Thanks! Here's a Google Translate version, I know they're not the best at translating, but it gets the point across.

That said, I read both the original and your German link (well, the Google version anyway) and I agree with Blackrams, interesting data, and I have to say quite cool that German police could go a year only firing 85 bullets, but not really enough data to make a valid comparison to the US. IMHO, of course.

Tony

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: That said, I read both the original and your German link (well, the Google version anyway) and I agree with Blackrams, interesting data, and I have to say quite cool that German police could go a year only firing 85 bullets, but not really enough data to make a valid comparison to the US. IMHO, of course.

I think that if we know that the entire police force in a country of 82 million people can use 85 bullets (fired at people or warning shots) in a year and another does that in one single event does raise questions about police policies. By way of comparison, I found this article on gun use by St. Louis police. That's just one city with 320k inhabitants (or 2.8 million in the greater metropolitan area):

quote [...] His officers hit suspects with gunfire in 15 incidents during all of 2011. Officers typically fire between 30 and 40 times a year. [...] The remaining one — in which a suspect was killed — featured an exchange of shots in which three officers together fired almost 100 rounds.

http://www.stltoday.com/new...0c-15a5a656588e.html

[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: http://www.stltoday.com/new...0c-15a5a656588e.html

Okay, but where are the statistics on what calls were responded to, what calls were not, how many calls resulted in arrest and how many calls were the suspects allowed to flee, response times (ie how many calls did they arrive too late and no contact was created) etc etc etc? Population of Germany 1/4 that of US, but what about land area, urban density, etc etc. All of these things should be taken into account.

Again, I'm not saying the data provided is not interesting, astounding even but there is simply not enough data to make a good comparison. (I say "good" comparison because clearly you are already making a comparison).

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: For example - Motor Vehicle related deaths: Germany - 9.8 deaths per 100 people. US - 15.5 deaths per 100 people. Uh oh, a country with 1/4 our population has 2/3 as many motor vehicle related deaths! What could it mean?! Since I've provided no other data - let the conclusion jumping begin! I say Germany should look into some more stringent vehicular safety laws, clearly their manic love of cars is costing them lives...

actually, the numbers you offer suggest that the US needs "more stringent" laws. i wonder how germany handles DUI?

quote Originally posted by lurker: actually, the numbers you offer suggest that the US needs "more stringent" laws.

lol. Yeah, I noticed that late, I was thinking proportionally but the link I provided is already adjusted (hence the "per 100 thousand" - yeah, that should be "per 100K" - I messed that up too). But that's okay really because my argument was merely hyperbolic meant to show that without supporting data its all hyperbole.

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 05-13-2012).]

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: Respectfully - while you may want to keep the discussion there, the article you posted for reference makes references to how "gun-crazy" America is. ( "not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. of A." "America shoots itself in the foot with its manic love of guns.") Kinda puts a damper on a civilized discussion when right off the bat anyone pro-gun is labed "gun crazy" by your source. Perhaps you should post a less-biased source if you want a less biased discussion... just sayin'...

THIS.

You can't post an article that calls a group of people names, and then get upset when that group says they don't like it.

Brad

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Equally, Toddster...if you gave every black person in the USA a house, cars , smartphones and flatscreen TV's, THAT wouldn't undo the past either Just sayin'

It is a good thing you aren't a racist, because that would sound really inappropriate to the conversation. But you are so knowledgable about the black American experience, being neither yourself. I have never met anyone who expects to be given a house, cars, smartphones, or flat screen tv. But you obviously meet more African Americans then I do.

Just sayin'.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: THIS. You can't post an article that calls a group of people names, and then get upset when that group says they don't like it. Brad

THIS.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: I agree. The thing is that this is the article I originally read: http://www.spiegel.de/panor...dienst-a-832037.html Since that wouldn't have been very helpful on this forum, I searched for an English-language article and posted the first one I found. The original article in DER SPIEGEL does not contain comparisons to the US.

While that article says how many bullets police fired at people, why does it not compare how many bullets were fired at police?

I would not have a problem with this article except that is comes right out and attacks Americans. It isn't attacking "police". It's attacking Americans as a whole.

Well, at least it's an article from a US magazine.

But let's focus on the original article and its translation for the purpose of this thread, OK?

Here are other publications covering this, take your pick:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/cr...nth-germans-use-year
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-germany-85-shots-022/
http://spyghana.com/world-n...-85-bullets-in-2011/
http://www.deccanchronicle....fired-85-bullets-648
http://hypervocal.com/news/...olice-85-shots-2011/
http://gawker.com/5909283/g...85-bullets-last-year

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: While that article says how many bullets police fired at people, why does it not compare how many bullets were fired at police? I would not have a problem with this article except that is comes right out and attacks Americans. It isn't attacking "police". It's attacking Americans as a whole.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone:

wait... Hitler didn't like pants???

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: wait... Hitler didn't like pants???

At least not all the time...



This picture really begs the question how on earth people could follow someone that stupid looking?

America is the wild west of the world always has been and always will be by Europeans. We don’t like getting told what to do by anyone and when shot at we shoot back. American cops don’t like getting shot at even more than the plain old Americans. So they tend to use more bullets, Americans don’t take no sh!t from anyone.

We have gangs in this country the size of the German police force, now how do those numbers look?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't http://serve.mysmiley.net/c...rs/character0029.gif
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Hitler didn't wear pants, he wore lederhosen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lederhosen

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-14-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: America is the wild west of the world always has been and always will be by Europeans. We don’t like getting told what to do by anyone and when shot at we shoot back. American cops don’t like getting shot at even more than the plain old Americans. So they tend to use more bullets, Americans don’t take no sh!t from anyone. We have gangs in this country the size of the German police force, now how do those numbers look? Steve

Sound like the homepage for that other Fiero fansite!

quote Originally posted by madcurl: I wonder if Germany has these types of gangs? The biggest gang in America. http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/54162036

You really linked to a myspace video and expect to be taken seriously?
American Gangs
Wikipedia list of gangs in America

or how about some real stats

quote Approximately 772,500 people in the United States belong to gangs. This number tends to grow every year, especially in those cities that have more than 25,000 people living in them. Some statistics have shown that there was an 8% drop between 1999 and 2000 but overall gang violence continues to grow. -In Los Angeles 59% of all homicides are gang related. This is true of 53% of all homicides in Chicago. Last year, there were 698 gang related homicides in just these two cities alone. In 130 other cities that have a population of at least 100,000 people there were only 637 homicides. -More than 24,500 gangs are currently active within the United States. This is a 5% decrease in the number of gangs that were in existence in 1999. However, cities who have a population of more than 25,000 people have reported a small increase in the number of gangs that are causing gang violence within their cities. -Forty-five percent of cities that have a population of at least 25,000 people have seen an increase in gang violence over the past two years. In cities with a population of between 50,000 and 99,999 people, there has been a 37% increase in gang violence. Those cities with a population of 100,000 people have reported a 69% increase in gang violence. -Approximately 47% of gang members are Hispanic, 31% are African American, 13% are white and 7% are Asian. This is one of the few statistics that seemingly remains fairly steady over the years regardless of the rise and fall in the other statistics about gang violence.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: Really? How childish. I'm sure there are many Japanese, from Hiroshima and Nagasaki in particular, who probably feel the same way about the USA....

Uh, who attacked who? Grow a brain...THEN coment. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, which brings us back to:

The Point...the VALID Point, that Nazi Germany enforced strict gun control for the simple reason that a disarmed populous is helpless against their government. Nothing has changed in that regard. That is why we have the 2nd ammendment. And the fact that it is the second is significant.