quote Originally posted by blackrams: This thread is about as meaningless as the one about Obama eating dog meat as a child. Get real. Anyone that would consider voting for either candidate based on what they did as a child is truely a fool, anyone that would try to use such accusations to influence another's vote is also a stupid ass wipe. Just my opinion, it isn't worth much but, it's all mine. Ray, you might do better if you tried, stretch your horizons just a bit, it won't hurt. I'm not very enthused about the Romney campaign but I sure as hell won't accept another four years of what we've had the last four. Who I liked doesn't matter, they aren't gonna win. What I do know is the America we all know is dying a painful death. The (our) Constitution is being slowly turned into toilet paper. I believe we'll all be called to serve our country, in the not too distant future, I doubt some will answer the call. Got that suitcase packed and ready Ray?

According to some it would not have mattered if such people were shot their "thuggish" behavior as adolescents, imagine they actually had value as people in the long run..

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quote Originally posted by newf: According to some it would not have mattered if such people were shot their thuggish behavior as adolescents, imagine they actually had value as people in the long run.

Well now. How many possible Presidents have been aborted ?
Not arguing your point.

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quote Originally posted by cliffw: Well now. How many possible Presidents have been aborted. Not arguing your point.

Certainly none of the potential candidates from your loins!!......(kidding)

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Would this be different if as a kid he was a nerd basher, or a poor kid basher? Would it be a hate crime because he hated those kids?

quote Originally posted by newf: Certainly none of the potential candidates from your loins!!......(kidding)

I feel kind'a insulted that everybody wouldn't think the candidates from my loins could not do better. I mean, after all, all the last campaign slogans were "anybody but the last guy", .

"I like turtles."

Is that because you wear a helmet, .

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: so you're ok with the way he's run this country? oh thats right, everythings W fault.. in 2008 you voted for obma to prove you're not a racist, in2012 you have to vote against him to prove you're not stupid, was a bumpersticker I've seen, sums it up nicely. not say'n your stupid, but if you are ok with what he's done, and the way he's stomped on the Constitution, then I don't know what to say.. . 4 more years of obama will mean the end of the U.S. OF A and welcome to russia,, hint, czars.. that should've been the WAKE THE F UP............. call..

I think you've made a number of assumptions about me,t hat are quite untrue. I didn't vote for Obama in 2008. I thought he was a lousy candidate then too. I would bet anyone that 4 more years of Obama "will mean the end of the U.S. OF A", it is a sensationalist opinion at best, that you seem to be presenting as fact. Also, I certainly don't blame Bush for what's happened. I think this is is ridiculous when anyone does. He absolutely contributed to the problems that we have, but they have certainly been perpetuated by this administration. Unfortunately the finincial crisis we are in was inevitable, in my opinion. Massive entitlements. That Ponzi scheme SSI (which honestly, possibly could have worked had the money that was collected been put into private accounting firms that made a small commission off of the gains. The S&P 500 shows an average of over 10% over the last 50 years. The interest and principles in this fund would be huge and could help, I believe, sustain this pyramid scheme for a much longer time.) Waging wars in other countries when ours in shambles. Rebuilding others after we have destroyed them in war. Offering millions and billions in relief support for climactic damages that truly weren't our concern. It has taken many of our leaders and many decades, but we are a nation in decline. We've made this bed, we will have to lie in it. A single man won't bring us out of this spiral without drastic changes.

As far as my political allegiances, I'm not going to give you that, "I don't identify with any party, I'm an independent." line of crap that everyone seems to do when they are called into question. I identify with the republican party. I was raised Christian (which I think is laughable). I was raised in poverty and now am rather prosperous. I run a small business (less than 10 people a few millions dollars a year). I hate all social programs. I think if you are poor either work harder or have to rely on your friends, family, and community until you strive hard enough to escape the clutches of disparity. If you can't or won't do it, then you get to stay poor. I believe each person's life is the sum of all their decisions.


A side note. I won't be debating you any longer. It isn't that I don't appreciate your personal attacks in the course of your writing, as we all know I've slung plenty. Your writing hurts my eyes and physically makes me a bit nauseous. Learn to write like a big boy and daddy can keep talking to you.

Oh...and whether you or anyone thinks I'm a racist; concerns me not a hitch.

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Hey, ls3mach.... You had to see that one coming, man.....and there are more on the way, I assure you. Consider your audience.

Is this real? I mean. I think Barrack Obama is a terrible leader too, but these blokes have blind hatred. I mean and you are black, open minded and a Muslim. I have all kinds of offensive obscenities to sling at you. I'm sure you've hear them all now though. I really would love to know who said if you didn't like it leave via PM.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: So your solution is to vote for the greater evil, drive the bus off the cliff, and hope we survive? If you don't vote for Romney you will get the government YOU deserve.

It certainly is. Maybe after that people will realize change is needed. I imagine the left will still blame the republican controlled house and the republicans will continue blaming the left. Business as usual.

I think this story and the dogs ones are dumb stories. Not sure why it is news.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Is that because you wear a helmet, .

Because they don't complain.

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quote Originally posted by cliffw: I feel kind'a insulted that everybody wouldn't think the candidates from my loins could not do better. I mean, after all, all the last campaign slogans were "anybody but the last guy", .

hahaha very true

quote Originally posted by avengador1: So your solution is to vote for the greater evil, drive the bus off the cliff, and hope we survive? If you don't vote for Romney you will get the government YOU deserve.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: It certainly is. Maybe after that people will realize change is needed. I imagine the left will still blame the republican controlled house and the republicans will continue blaming the left. Business as usual.

I agree.
My post from this thread.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Myself, I would have liked to see the "too big to fail" companies fail, some being banks. To me, it would have been like a giant reset button. Many of the 1% became 99 percenters and room opened up at the top for new blood. If people could not appreciate what the hardships would entail, well, what don't kill you makes you stronger. We have become too mentally weak. I think people need to start learning how to take care of themselves, which a collapse would encourage.

Change we should hope for.

quote Originally posted by Khw: Jobs... jobs... jobs... <snip>

And therein lies the fallacy that Government creates jobs. No. Clearly, Government creates dependency.

"Unfortunately the finincial crisis we are in was inevitable, in my opinion. Massive entitlements. That Ponzi scheme SSI (which honestly, possibly could have worked had the money that was collected been put into private accounting firms that made a small commission off of the gains. The S&P 500 shows an average of over 10% over the last 50 years. The interest and principles in this fund would be huge and could help, I believe, sustain this pyramid scheme for a much longer time.) "

ss WOULD BE FINE, and in the black. but you see WE are the problem.. the fund is funded by taxes, taxes on labor income.. everytime you buy something made outside our boarders, you by-pass that tax..
everytime you buy any imported item that can be made here, you're stealing from your retirement.., love it when my family is over for holidays and complaining about SS and it going broke.. and I ask them, how much s.s. tax was withheld on the labor that build that BMW, or VW, or M/B,ETC fixing SS is simple , tie the tax to something other than labor income..

As far as "driving the bus off a cliff" goes, I remember which party "drove the bus into the ditch". The thing that bothers me the most about Romneys high school indiscretions is the "I don't recall" part. I don't think that I could do something like that and not be able to remember. I'm not a Romney fan, but I just don't believe that he has forgotten the incident.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I can give you mine.. don't like gay marriage? Don't marry a gay person. Seems simple, right?

As simple as "Don't like murder? Then don't kill anyone." That makes it OK for others who do believe in murder (or theft, or anything else) to do it. The argument is fallacious.

"Marriage" is a word that means something just like "red" means something. It has meant something for thousands of years. It is about an integral part of society; the means of continuing that society and its conventions. Marriage existed well before the United States did, and now the US Government is being compelled to change that definition.

Why don't we lobby to redefine "rape?" Let's weaken what that means... that won't matter to anyone who has been raped before, will it? I won't go into any details, because I would find it equally, if not more distasteful than you would, but the point is the same. "Marriage" has meaning and connotation to society, just as "rape" does. We can't just change the meaning of either.

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: And therein lies the fallacy that Government creates jobs. No. Clearly, Government creates dependency.

Of course it creates dependancy, that's the nature of the animal. Does it create jobs? In a way, but it more retains jobs then creates them. Sadly those retained jobs are often to the detrimate of the tax payer.

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quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: As simple as "Don't like murder? Then don't kill anyone." That makes it OK for others who do believe in murder (or theft, or anything else) to do it. The argument is fallacious. "Marriage" is a word that means something just like "red" means something. It has meant something for thousands of years. It is about an integral part of society; the means of continuing that society and its conventions. Marriage existed well before the United States did, and now the US Government is being compelled to change that definition. Why don't we lobby to redefine "rape?" Let's weaken what that means... that won't matter to anyone who has been raped before, will it? I won't go into any details, because I would find it equally, if not more distasteful than you would, but the point is the same. "Marriage" has meaning and connotation to society, just as "rape" does. We can't just change the meaning of either.

I imagine "rape" has been redefined throughout the years many times.

quote Originally posted by newf: I imagine "rape" has been redefined throughout the years many times.

Legally, maybe. "Rape," to me, means forcibly engaging a party sexually who either A) does not wish to be engaged in sexual activity, B) does not have the capacity to understand the meaning of sexual activity (Mentally or emotionally) and/or C) is legally incapable of making a decision to engage in sexual activity.

One may question what "sexual activity" is, just to be obtuse and try to poke holes in my definition. It's simple. A child (or a mentally challenged person) cannot understand what sexual activity is. A girl does not "want" sex (or to "take care of you") just because you paid for a burger and a movie (even at today's prices). Etc. It's black and white, just like other definitions are. Just because we choose to change those meanings over time (for societal or other purposes) does not change what they really mean. We are making ourselves feel better, we are not actually benefiting ourselves or our progeny.

quote Originally posted by Khw: Of course it creates dependancy, that's the nature of the animal. Does it create jobs? In a way, but it more retains jobs then creates them. Sadly those retained jobs are often to the detrimate of the tax payer.

Indeed.

quote Originally posted by dratts: As far as "driving the bus off a cliff" goes, I remember which party "drove the bus into the ditch". The thing that bothers me the most about Romneys high school indiscretions is the "I don't recall" part. I don't think that I could do something like that and not be able to remember. I'm not a Romney fan, but I just don't believe that he has forgotten the incident.

really, I was bullied, and I don't remember them all, or whom or why it happened, you remember every hour of your h.s. life, cause I know I can't
never mind the fact that 50 years ago. the kid if gay, most likely wasn't open about it..

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Legally, maybe. "Rape," to me, means forcibly engaging a party sexually who either A) does not wish to be engaged in sexual activity, B) does not have the capacity to understand the meaning of sexual activity (Mentally or emotionally) and/or C) is legally incapable of making a decision to engage in sexual activity. One may question what "sexual activity" is, just to be obtuse and try to poke holes in my definition. It's simple. A child (or a mentally challenged person) cannot understand what sexual activity is. A girl does not "want" sex (or to "take care of you") just because you paid for a burger and a movie (even at today's prices). Etc. It's black and white, just like other definitions are. Just because we choose to change those meanings over time (for societal or other purposes) does not change what they really mean. We are making ourselves feel better, we are not actually benefiting ourselves or our progeny.

I guess that's my point. You just explained what rape means to you and before that used Marriage as an analogy. Rape can mean many things to many people and then there is also a legal definition, isn't it the same thing with Marriage?

And as for the black and white thing, rarely are things that simple IMO.

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quote Originally posted by dratts: As far as "driving the bus off a cliff" goes, I remember which party "drove the bus into the ditch".

Respectfully, I don't think you do. The culmination happened at the end of the Bush term after Congress had been hijacked by the liberals (with the help of the media). The party which drove the bus into the ditch is the same one which is now driving it over the cliff.
The economy failed with housing loans, because the dems thought everybody should be able to own a home. They pushed for banking rules which would allow it, which had to be equal opportunity rules for all else. They had to allow the banks to leverage their risky loans with good ones, which also brought down Wall Street.
Also, for all the dem wailing about Bush and the national debt and yearly deficits, Nobama has increased that five fold while the dem Senate will not even pass a budget. I don't think one dem in the House would even vote for Nabama's budget.

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quote Originally posted by dratts: As far as "driving the bus off a cliff" goes, I remember which party "drove the bus into the ditch". The thing that bothers me the most about Romneys high school indiscretions is the "I don't recall" part. I don't think that I could do something like that and not be able to remember. I'm not a Romney fan, but I just don't believe that he has forgotten the incident.

Really? You remember every insignificant snide remark you ever made as a child? I can't recall most of the teasing that went on in any of my school years. I know I teased a bunch of kids and was teased by some too. Who cares either. It was 10 years ago or more for me. It doesn't change anything in my life today. If anything being teased made me stronger. I used to think about some kids that were cooling than me and didn't take school as serious and how I would prosper in life and marry a hot woman and have money. Then I would go back and show them at one of the reunions. Along the way, I stopped of getting out of the mindset of poverty I was taught I stopped caring about showing my graduating class that I succeeded. I ended up happy. I've had plenty of girls that were way out of my league. My significant other now is a beautiful and wonderful woman who I love waking up next to every morning. We live comfortably in a small home (I got rid of my house with that was double the size and payment). We have enough savings to not even worry about me losing my job and the payment is so small I could work anywhere and still make ends meet. My job is super stellar and I draw a handsome salary with great bonuses. As a result, I won't be going to my high school reunion to brag about "winning" anymore. If there were bullies I don't remember them and I am positive it wouldn't affect me today. Bullying isn't always bad thing. I certainly wouldn't base my vote on something from 40 years ago.

As a side note, I think in Obama's book he talks about bullying and how he was being mean and pushed a little black girl down when he was younger. I don't have any references, and certainly haven't read his book, but it was something I heard on the radio this morning. Seems everyone was a jerk as a kid.

Speaking of being a bully in High School.
Audio: Obama Describes Bullying Female Classmate Because She Was Black…
http://weaselzippers.us/201...cause-she-was-black/

quote According to the Washington Post’s cranky lib Greg Sargent, Romeny’s bullying 50 years ago is “fair game,” so I’m guessing he will say the same thing about Obama? Yeah, maybe not.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: it is bigotry. I don't understand why people are so damn nosy as to what other's are doing.

What people do and don't do affects the whole country. I guess an easy example a kid could understand would be look at entertainment, look at TV shows from 40 years ago and list the differences you see. Things people do every day steadily bring things to lower levels. Look at Super Mario vs. GTA4. The content. That happened while people were resisting it. Yet you want no one to resist.
Its all in how we look at things I suppose. How much we care about things outside our own bubble we create.

This conversation may belong in the gay marriage thread.

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quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I think your argument is just a fallacious. In both of the cases, rape and murder, it is an action done by someone to someone else. It doesn't cheapen your marriage for someone 2 men to get married. In fact, it affects your marriage in no way whatsoever. People use religion to cover protest things all the time. It doesn't change the truth; it is bigotry. I don't understand why people are so damn nosy as to what other's are doing.

Oh really? Did you think about what you posted?

If a man rapes another man across the country how would that affect me? It wouldn't affect me at all. In fact rapes that happen in my city don't affect me at all. So by your argument, it should be legal since it does not affect me or you or 99.999999% of Americans.

That is assuming that the basic premise of your argument is even true which it is not. Redefining marriage has a profound affect on the entire society.

To tie two threads together, the gay rights advocates are trying to force everyone to say there are five lights. There are four lights and marriage is male-female.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Oh really? Did you think about what you posted? If a man rapes another man across the country how would that affect me? It wouldn't affect me at all. In fact rapes that happen in my city don't affect me at all. So by your argument, it should be legal since it does not affect me or you or 99.999999% of Americans. That is assuming that the basic premise of your argument is even true which it is not. Redefining marriage has a profound affect on the entire society. To tie two threads together, the gay rights advocates are trying to force everyone to say there are five lights. There are four lights and marriage is male-female.

I'm not talking about rape. I am talking about something 2 consenting adults are doing. Patrick's Dad is the one who likened gay marriage to rape. NOT ME. Someone raping someone else, violates them. Someone getting married to someone else is none of your damn business. I am not likening rape and murder to gay marriage. I am not likening them because there is no comparison. Not my words. Don't try to force them upon me.

quote Originally posted by dratts: As far as "driving the bus off a cliff" goes, I remember which party "drove the bus into the ditch". The thing that bothers me the most about Romneys high school indiscretions is the "I don't recall" part. I don't think that I could do something like that and not be able to remember. I'm not a Romney fan, but I just don't believe that he has forgotten the incident.

Kind of like when Obama didn't remember sitting in front of those hate filled sermons?

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I'm not talking about rape. I am talking about something 2 consenting adults are doing. Patrick's Dad is the one who likened gay marriage to rape. NOT ME. Someone raping someone else, violates them. Someone getting married to someone else is none of your damn business. I am not likening rape and murder to gay marriage. I am not likening them because there is no comparison. Not my words. Don't try to force them upon me.

That was your argument. If you want to retract your argument that if something does not directly affect me, then it should be legal then go right ahead. Until then, I get to point out how flawed your argument really is.

Also, marriage is a PUBLIC institution. I don't care what two consenting adults do in their own private lives. People do this every single day and don't call their myriad of different relationships a "marriage". As soon as they want to redefine the PUBLIC institution of marriage, then it becomes my business and everyone else's business in the country.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: Kind of like when Obama didn't remember sitting in front of those hate filled sermons?

Best post yet.

quote Originally posted by newf: I guess that's my point. You just explained what rape means to you and before that used Marriage as an analogy. Rape can mean many things to many people and then there is also a legal definition, isn't it the same thing with Marriage? And as for the black and white thing, rarely are things that simple IMO.

And feminists think that rape is anytime heterosexual intercourse happens, even if she says "Yes."

Any word needs to be defined not for a narrow group, but for the greater good of society. Rape, defined as I have, is defined as such to criminalize those that would take advantage of those weaker than themselves, physically, emotionally or otherwise. Marriage, described as it has for thousands of years, is defined as such because the best foundation for a society is in the core family of a Husband and a Wife raising their children. Are there other families, such as single moms and dads? Yes, but keep in mind that I said, "best," not only. The nuclear family does not denigrate the single parent family. The single mother is to be lauded, if/when she handles the income, the instruction, the discipline and all the other things that a Husband and Wife share. I do believe that a child gathers important sociological information in the proper relationship between men and women in the core nuclear family, and this is why the family has been, traditionally, protected in all societies. With the constant erosion of that core family unit in this country (from a myriad of sources), we have witnessed its inevitable consequence; our society is breaking. It isn't totally broken, but that's the road that we're walking down - some would say running with reckless abandon.

quote Originally posted by partfiero: Kind of like when Obama didn't remember sitting in front of those hate filled sermons?

Now here is a funny thing.

Romney bullies someone when in high school. No evidence he does it after high school or ever again. So NO impact on predicting his CURRENT behavior.

Forget the hate-filled part. That was just vitriole. Obama sits for 20 years in a church whose foundation is black liberation theology, and DOES have ongoing behavior exhibiting someone who believes in that, and SOMEhow the media doesn't spend time reporting on and investigating that, and whether that would predict his CURRENT behavior.

And then Obama DOES manifest decisions that would find their basis in that kind of belief system.
Yes. No media bias at all.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I think your argument is just a fallacious. In both of the cases, rape and murder, it is an action done by someone to someone else. It doesn't cheapen your marriage for someone 2 men to get married. In fact, it affects your marriage in no way whatsoever. People use religion to cover protest things all the time. It doesn't change the truth; it is bigotry. I don't understand why people are so damn nosy as to what other's are doing.

I disagree. Society as a whole has rules and such definitions for the good of the whole. While rape and murder are immediately apparent, the societal effects of the weakening of Marriage (as a necessary precursor to its redefinition) have taken two generations to be seen. The generation that my parents were raised in (The Greatest) were the ones who are in greatest dismay at the way things are now, as they saw the weakening of divorce laws and the lack of legal consequence of infidelities. My generation saw the "free sex" revolution and the virtual elimination of responsibility, through welfare for unwed mothers to abortion as well as the spectacle of White House Intern games. Today, "It's just sex" is the call of friends with benefits and, through various media and the schools, "nontraditional sexual behavior" has become accepted as mainstream - I'm not just talking about sodomy, but all of the other "games" that used to be played behind closed doors, as well. What will the next generation look like? And the one when I'm a grandparent?

There are traditional core values, not just sexual and familial, that have existed for thousands of years; values that our Nation was built on, that are being thrown out the window as "outdated." There have been many such societies that were built on similar traditional core values that thrived, then fell - in historical time frames, overnight - as those values were shunned. And many had never heard of the Bible, either.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: That was your argument. If you want to retract your argument that if something does not directly affect me, then it should be legal then go right ahead. Until then, I get to point out how flawed your argument really is. Also, marriage is a PUBLIC institution. I don't care what two consenting adults do in their own private lives. People do this every single day and don't call their myriad of different relationships a "marriage". As soon as they want to redefine the PUBLIC institution of marriage, then it becomes my business and everyone else's business in the country.

I am not going to retract anything. I didn't liken the two. Rape is one person doing something to another. Marriage is two people consenting to something. If two people agree to have rape sex, it is not any of your business. You are trying to twist what I have said, intentionally. Mind your own business about what two consenting adults do. Geeze.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I am not going to retract anything. I didn't liken the two. Rape is one person doing something to another. Marriage is two people consenting to something. If two people agree to have rape sex, it is not any of your business.

Those two examples are not even related, and in my opinion, were crammed together in a post for the sensationalist value of an extreme and illegal act to deface the idea that two consenting adults should NOT be able to be married. Not the same ballpark, not even the same sport.

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quote Originally posted by tbone42: ... an extreme and illegal act to deface the idea that two consenting adults should NOT be able to be married.

Why is marriage even necessary ?