Maybe the guy was just a dumba55 and didnt realize he needed to have gas in the car too, and once the batterys were dead he couldnt start the engine either.
Could be, but I checked. He has a full tank.
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01:27 PM
rstubie Member
Posts: 421 From: Toledo,Ohio,USA Registered: Aug 2006
fords have always been MUCH more reliable than chevy,except for the tempo,must have been G.M. design.ford took good parts ,made a bad car, thank you unions
Yea the T-bird was gem of a car too. Had an avg customer return to dealership for defects of @4 per owner.. It wasnt killed because of sales it was killed because of quality. Referencing a vehicle like the Vega which was produced at the same time AMC was making the Pacer and Ford was making the Pinto which was named one of the worse cars ever made. Hummm Not a great time for Us auto industry all together.
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01:32 PM
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
libs & left wingers never miss a uhlanstan post for the grammer & puntuation// the revolting does not perform as it should,will not make 35miles,,this is how not to build new tech..G.M.was pressured to build this car
Pressured by who? Bob Lutz? It was conceived and given the green light for development long before Uncle Sam meddled with GM's business.
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this POS ruined G.M. $$$billions $$$went into developement while customers were screwed because thier new car transmission/electronic problems were ignored,the warrantee money sunk down the revolting rat hole
You have no idea what you're talking about, sorry.
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Gas is really cheap now,wait till the jewboys hit the Iranian nukes the Chinese & Russians will make it tough,support your Israeli military,they work hard for you,our only friend..Iran is to big for the israeli,s to handle then think small hybred car
Yeah, so when the sh*t hits the fan, you will be really glad that alternatives (like the Volt) exist.
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,it is unreliable ,often you can only go 25 miles on a charge,,
Unreliable? According to whom? And where does 25 miles come from? I don't really care about "stories" from other people you've heard, because for every person who claims they only got 15 miles of range, there's another who can get 1000 MPG out of the car.
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fogglethorpe: So, they go forty miles, maybe more. Then they need a charge (if a charging station is available). How long will it take to charge fully? Four hours? More? And where does electricity come from?
The original purpose of the electric car is ostensibly to reduce fossil fuel consumption and pollution. This does neither.
Besides, it is incredibly inconvenient, to say the least.
Volt doesn't need a charge, which is it's entire point of existence. The electricity comes from a variety of sources, some fossil, some not. Either way, grid power is way more energy efficient than gasoline generated power, and grid power is virtually all domestically sourced. Volt takes 10 hours to charge from a standard 120v socket, and on average reduces fossil fuel consumption by a factor of 2 to 3 times compared to the average economy car.
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I completely agree. I have been saying for years that electric cars will NEVER be viable because of that nagging Third Law of Thermodynamics.
Good idea, so lets just sit around and continue driving our SUVs because IT CANNOT BE DONE, meanwhile, our standard of living plummets because we no longer innovate and sell technology to around the world and we cannot support our (relatively) expensive living habits.
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dn69141: Come out to Nebraska with your electric car and see how it does for 5 years.
It will have shorter range, but since the batteries are temperature controlled, I doubt longevity is an issue. Unlike, say, the Leaf which relies on air cooling for its battery pack.
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FrugalFiero: Toyota, with vehicles such as the Prius C at LESS than 1/2 the base price of the Volt, will enhance the ultimate demise of the Volt.
Prius C "one" starts at $19,760, not including $760 destination. Prius C "four" is more comparable in features to the Volt and costs over $25,000. For that, you get a smaller vehicle that gets 53 mpg and essentially zero electric range.
Is it a better deal? Maybe, but it's certainly not "less than half" of the Volt's price, and it's certainly an inferior vehicle.
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01:41 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
I picked up a gentleman yesterday who was broke down in one. He stated to me in between obseneties that it was the 3rd time he broke down this week in his NEW Volt.
I would say that is unreliable.
Sort of like any car out there? One breaks down so they are all unreliable?
Prius C "one" starts at $19,760, not including $760 destination. Prius C "four" is more comparable in features to the Volt and costs over $25,000. For that, you get a smaller vehicle that gets 53 mpg and essentially zero electric range.
Is it a better deal? Maybe, but it's certainly not "less than half" of the Volt's price, and it's certainly an inferior vehicle.
Oh sorry....more than half the price. So let's say after all the rebates, destination, taxes etc. there is a 10,000 difference between the two out the door.
I'll take small, 50+ mpg, from a manufacturer that has been in the hybrid business for awhile now. I can buy ALOT of fuel for 10 grand.
Based on MANY previous GM "new design" introductions, I have a feeling which vehicle will turn out to be "inferior" as you say, but time (and the consumer) will tell.
you want to know why oBUMBLES would win if the election were held today read these post , the reason for this post was to see what people said & the depth of thier green denial.now i know I reearched this is depth,in my area seems for every Smart car on the road there are 3 for sale still selling because of P.C.,people buy them as a political statement.attention getter.. politicians pressured G.M. to bring the Volt loooong before oBUMBLES left the hate america church,& drop some of his pro lenin views ....I Listen to congressman Waxman(green champion) speech today,,our current problems have him drooling for new regulations, supported by the fiero forum MEMBERS . green clown show members ,,we are so screwed ,,prison for those who do not have the goverment health care,My favorite oBUMBLES PLAN BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU WISH FOR,I am surprised you can still modify a car in california,OH forgot! the performance industry is the strongest in the nation in L.A. ,,loosing battle however.. save the enviroment & abort a baby,,personally whack its head apart
..Masospaghetti you are one of the biggest liars on this forum,, why do you not at least do cursory research??,You must be a very experienced liar ,,I doubt the people around you beleave much you say. I have no idea why you twist my words you must not have read all the post,,I followed the VOLT before it had a name starting with the crapster EV1 try & get some honor & integrity in your life & you will find it easier to tell the truth I realize the green & lib marxist obumbles people all hate me.
I was wrong about the peanut butter
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04:12 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
While I'm not a particular fan of the Volt, I think I'll chime in here.
The first computers took up an entire room, required teams of scientists to operate, had a few mb of processing power, and cost a million dollars. Now you can buy on that sits on your lap with a thousand times the computing power of the early ones for $500.
The first cell phone, the Motorola Dynatac 8000x, was the size and weight of a brick, had a terrible battery life, and cost $4000. Only very wealthy and important businessmen owned them. Now you can buy one that fits in your hand that is also doubles as a computer for chump change.
All of these technologies were new at some point. They were far from practical or affordable to the average person (sound familiar?). The electric car, just like any new technology, takes TIME to be viable in the real world. In TIME, the electric car will be a reality. Right now, the electric car is just a curiosity, just like the computer, the cell phone, and a host of other new technologies once were.
I remember buying the cheapest VHS camera and recorder possible back in 1985. I was in for $3,000. Now I can video-tape with my phone. You make a valid point. I think the only difference with these examples and the Volt is that consumers have a less costly alternative. Fortunately Henry Ford didn't give up because buying a horse was cheaper.
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07:13 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
try & get some honor & integrity in your life & you will find it easier to tell the truth
I have read masospaghetti's post above and I don't find anything wrong with it. Definitely not something that would warrant such an outburst from you. Maybe a little civility would be in order.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 03-08-2012).]
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07:48 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
I'd love an EV1 and agree they should have used what they learned from building those and put it into the volt...but they probably sold all rights and info to some big oil company and can't use any of said technologies or something...eitehr that or they're jsut a buncha idiots for not looking at what they'd figured out in the past.
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11:18 PM
Mar 9th, 2012
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
The ev-1 was GMs response to California requirements and it's purpose was to prove that electric cars were not feasible. That's why they refused to let anyone have them and crushed them all. They weren't even allowed to be museum pieces.
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09:37 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
articles with Volt tests (I have not reviewed these, but this may help provide real world experience - good and bad, which seems to be missing from these arguments):
Thanks for those. I only had time to read the C&D and R&T test. Pretty much backed up what ive heard ; mid 20s miles on a charge, and using heater used up more power than the drivetrain (that surprised me) and Ill guess AC uses even more. Also interesting they put some thought in a stereo system that draws lower power.
I thought this quote about summed it up at R&T, lol
"What makes the Volt interesting is something of an answer to a Jay Leno line. The comedian figures the range of an electric car is about half as far as you want to go."
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-09-2012).]
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11:34 AM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
I think that we are witnessing the beginning of a technology. The model T was also the beginning of a mass technology. It got better thank god, I think that model Ts are cute but I'm glad we have better cars now.
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11:44 AM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10655 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
LOOK, The Volt is a GREAT car. It is such a good car that I would swap the entire drivetrain and electronics into a Fiero in a NY second if I could get my hands on a total.
LOOK, The Volt is a GREAT car. It is such a good car that I would swap the entire drivetrain and electronics into a Fiero in a NY second if I could get my hands on a total.
Some of you guys crack me up. If GM gave you a Volt right now for free you'd take it. LOL. The fact that Ford owners being upset about them crushing the electric says something. The Volt appreance is better than the Prius and far better looking than the Ford electric car, but it's the price tag that is killing GM. Bring the price down to match the Prius and maybe people will buy it, but at 42k or more somebody is smoking crack. On the other hand, GM could've used the Saturn Sky frame as a electric car similar to Tesla, but I guess that was too stupid.
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12:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by uhlanstan: ..Masospaghetti you are one of the biggest liars on this forum,, why do you not at least do cursory research??,You must be a very experienced liar ,,I doubt the people around you beleave much you say.
Great, call me "one of the biggest liars on this forum" and then don't explain a thing.
What did I say that wasn't true?
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try & get some honor & integrity in your life & you will find it easier to tell the truth I realize the green & lib marxist obumbles people all hate me.
I didn't realize that only dishonorable marxists challenge your random, hate-filled outbursts.
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04:16 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
Some of you guys crack me up. If GM gave you a Volt right now for free you'd take it. LOL. The fact that Ford owners being upset about them crushing the electric says something. The Volt appreance is better than the Prius and far better looking than the Ford electric car, but it's the price tag that is killing GM. Bring the price down to match the Prius and maybe people will buy it, but at 42k or more somebody is smoking crack. On the other hand, GM could've used the Saturn Sky frame as a electric car similar to Tesla, but I guess that was too stupid.
The Volt better satisfy me sexually for the kind of cheddar GM wants.
I'd take it for free, yes, and sell it to some poor sap.
Originally posted by rstubie: Originally posted by uhlanstan:
WAKE UP,the volt is a failure In your Opinion
the volt does not do what it was design to do Yes it moves on electric and has a gas back up.
the volt cost twice what it should Tell ya what you build one and let me know what it should cost
you are watching the destruction of America POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BIRTH THE VOLT The birth of this car is about being a leader in new technology staying ahead of the competition preparing GM for the future and very little about politics.
the technoligy is available to built an electric hybred car, that will sell,some are being built None that actually are propelled by electric 100% of the time with a generator back up for less $.
a hybred is better in the reality of today !!BUT,big BUT the politicians wanted the volt from G.M. you will regret the day they stabbed Dingell in the back. For god sake man its Hybrid They dont actually breed the cars.
From here on down I just heard blah blah I want it in the rear blah. the liberal will ease it into you as you grab your ankles.many of you will tingle with the other marxist liberals & love it. keep watching T.V. & listening to the vapid music so very important to you. avoid being active in politics,where our destruction emanates O.K. Im a angry racist hater according to those who detest my post,REALLY?? YOU HAVE MY ANGER WRONG ,I DIRECT IT TO OUR ENEMIES,& show the democrats the kind of hate they have shown for many years,the democrats are destroying America & will be puzzled when all is destroyed destroy marriage, destroy religion ,destroy the home,bring on fiascos like the volt,make sure criminal illegals can vote,bring 1000s of Somali,s here who hate our guts ..In central florida another cop brutaly killed here this week by a multi felon freed by liberal judges many times,there were 4 warants out for him,,these judges go to the higher court,, then Supreme court.. another queer got into the boyscouts leadership & destroyed 20 lifes last week go back to sleep now
You're using logic to attempt to translate one of Stan's posts?
That's like entering a debate with a professor....who suffers from a terminal case of Tourette's Syndrome.
While I'm not a particular fan of the Volt, I think I'll chime in here.
The first computers took up an entire room, required teams of scientists to operate, had a few mb of processing power, and cost a million dollars. Now you can buy on that sits on your lap with a thousand times the computing power of the early ones for $500.
The first cell phone, the Motorola Dynatac 8000x, was the size and weight of a brick, had a terrible battery life, and cost $4000. Only very wealthy and important businessmen owned them. Now you can buy one that fits in your hand that is also doubles as a computer for chump change.
All of these technologies were new at some point. They were far from practical or affordable to the average person (sound familiar?). The electric car, just like any new technology, takes TIME to be viable in the real world. In TIME, the electric car will be a reality. Right now, the electric car is just a curiosity, just like the computer, the cell phone, and a host of other new technologies once were.
A blow to the Luddites among us!
Give that man a cigar.
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07:19 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by uhlanstan: wait till the jewboys hit the Iranian nukes
That word is offensive to me, and in my opinion is often used in the same way as the "N" word. I'm not judging or rating you, just letting you know how it feels to me when I hear or see it.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 03-09-2012).]
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09:33 PM
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
Oh sorry....more than half the price. So let's say after all the rebates, destination, taxes etc. there is a 10,000 difference between the two out the door.
I'll take small, 50+ mpg, from a manufacturer that has been in the hybrid business for awhile now. I can buy ALOT of fuel for 10 grand.
Based on MANY previous GM "new design" introductions, I have a feeling which vehicle will turn out to be "inferior" as you say, but time (and the consumer) will tell.
I'm not saying that the Volt is a better deal in today's market and current fuel prices, but I like having the facts straight.
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09:51 PM
Mar 11th, 2012
Wichita Member
Posts: 20708 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
"The Chevrolet Volt is everything that is wrong with Washington on four wheels, and investors (that’s you and me) should be furious.
Wrong #1: The Volt should be re-named the Vote. Who can forget that Super Bowl ad, with the pseudo-assembly line of Volts rolling through Hamtramck, Michigan, and the voice overlay that “this isn’t the car we wanted to build; it’s the car America had to build…from the heart of Detroit to the help [sic] of the country.” How true—corporate welfare on wheels, buying votes in a state vital to the President’s re-election. There is simply no way that GM can kill it.
Wrong #2: Paying workers for not working. Several days before Christmas, production was phased out for the holidays, which in the case of the Volt plant, lasted until February 6. Last Friday, GM announced another shutdown, from March 19 through April 13, or five weeks. That’s right: the Hamtramck plant will produce “the car America had to build” for less than seven out of 18 weeks. When it’s open the plant only runs one ten-hour shift for four days a week. When the plant is shuttered, the 1,300 workers still get paid. Not counting obligations to retirement, the average hourly wage and benefits cost to GM union employees is about $55 per hour. Shareholders ponied up a little more than $30 million in wage costs alone for these 11 weeks of leisure. Nice job if you can get it! Of course, institutional overhead probably tacks on another $15 million or so. All while not one car is produced.
How many unsold Volts are out there? GM says there were 3,600 at the end of February, and Autoweek and The Wall Street Journal say 6,300 (which would be in the ball park of the total non-fleet sales of Volts for all of 2011). Cars.com lists a bit over 4,300. Even using conservative figures, the average Volt sits on the average dealer’s lot for 60 days.
Wrong #3: Subsidizing well-off taxpayers. The Administration is doing everything it can to goose sales. The President’s new budget raises the subsidy paid to Volt buyers another 33%, to $10,000 per car in a direct tax credit. The median price of all the Volts on cars.com is $43,200. The average household income of Volt purchasers is in excess of $170,000, around the 93rd percentile. At the 28% tax bracket (married, filing jointly), this is equivalent to $36,000 of tax-free income. The car which is traded most for the Volt is none other than the Toyota Prius, which, according to most analyses, will not have been owned long enough to save in gas money the total premium paid for the car, compared to a comparable conventional vehicle.
Wrong #4: Corporate cronyism and coercion. Last month, General Electric, whose CEO Jeffrey Immelt chairs the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, announced that all 2012 sedans ordered by employees for corporate use will be Volts. That’s Competitive! Beginning next January 1, GE will not reimburse employees for any corporate travel unless it is done in a Volt. If GE purchases the 12,000 Volts it is committed to buying, it will get a $120 million subsidy.
Mark Modica, of the National Center for Policy Analysis, has uncovered another whopper. Dealers that sell Volts to nonprofits, such as municipalities, can claim the subsidy. The Obama Administration is simply determined to give away money to move this car that so few want.
The political calculus on the Volt may in fact be wrong. Yes, it may deliver Michigan. But people in other battleground states aren’t happy about subsidizing a car with their children’s (and grandchildren’s) future wages.
When testifying to Congress about the (overhyped) Volt battery fires last January, GM CEO Dan Ackerson lamented “We did not develop the Chevy Volt to be a political punching bag”, but rather “We engineered the Volt to be a technological wonder”.
In fact, it is an impressive piece of technology. It is also an expensive one for which the shareholders (us) are paying workers not to work, buying the vote in Michigan, subsidizing the wealthy and paying one of the richest corporations in the world to be subsidized to buy something that just cannot roll on its own four wheels.
How could the more-aptly named Chevrolet Vote not become a political punching bag?"
Originally posted by Wichita: Wrong #1: The Volt should be re-named the Vote. Who can forget that Super Bowl ad, with the pseudo-assembly line of Volts rolling through Hamtramck, Michigan, and the voice overlay that “this isn’t the car we wanted to build; it’s the car America had to build…from the heart of Detroit to the help [sic] of the country.” How true—corporate welfare on wheels, buying votes in a state vital to the President’s re-election. There is simply no way that GM can kill it.
Reminding Americans that the Volt is produced domestically, instead of virtually all other advanced technology vehicles (save a few Ford products), is buying votes? GM would be stupid to kill it for many reasons, mostly because it would be horrific PR. Remember the EV-1?
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Wrong #2: Paying workers for not working. Several days before Christmas, production was phased out for the holidays, which in the case of the Volt plant, lasted until February 6. Last Friday, GM announced another shutdown, from March 19 through April 13, or five weeks. That’s right: the Hamtramck plant will produce “the car America had to build” for less than seven out of 18 weeks. When it’s open the plant only runs one ten-hour shift for four days a week. When the plant is shuttered, the 1,300 workers still get paid. Not counting obligations to retirement, the average hourly wage and benefits cost to GM union employees is about $55 per hour. Shareholders ponied up a little more than $30 million in wage costs alone for these 11 weeks of leisure. Nice job if you can get it! Of course, institutional overhead probably tacks on another $15 million or so. All while not one car is produced.
This is what automakers do for all vehicles, not just the Volt, to retain skilled labor and ensure labor is readily available on demand. Lay off everyone with no pay and it would be nearly impossible to restart the line.
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How many unsold Volts are out there? GM says there were 3,600 at the end of February, and Autoweek and The Wall Street Journal say 6,300 (which would be in the ball park of the total non-fleet sales of Volts for all of 2011). Cars.com lists a bit over 4,300. Even using conservative figures, the average Volt sits on the average dealer’s lot for 60 days.
Given there's approximately 3,000 Chevy dealers in the United States, that's just over 2 Volts per dealer, even if you use the conservative WSJ numbers. One is always a demo, so that means there's only one salable vehicle per dealer on average, at most. How is this a travesty? It seems apparent that limited supply at dealers must be reducing sales volume since customers have little flexibility in choosing different option packages. If you use GM's numbers, there are almost no salable Volts anywhere in the country, as almost all of them would be used as demo units.
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Wrong #3: Subsidizing well-off taxpayers. The Administration is doing everything it can to goose sales. The President’s new budget raises the subsidy paid to Volt buyers another 33%, to $10,000 per car in a direct tax credit. The median price of all the Volts on cars.com is $43,200. The average household income of Volt purchasers is in excess of $170,000, around the 93rd percentile. At the 28% tax bracket (married, filing jointly), this is equivalent to $36,000 of tax-free income. The car which is traded most for the Volt is none other than the Toyota Prius, which, according to most analyses, will not have been owned long enough to save in gas money the total premium paid for the car, compared to a comparable conventional vehicle.
It's just like any new technology - it's expensive, and therefore adopted by the wealthy first. I would much rather a wealthy consumer buy a Volt than whatever they WERE going to buy - probably not an economy car, but a less efficient near luxury vehicle with poor fuel economy. When gasoline demand goes down, so does the price. And more importantly, they are ensuring future Volt generations achieve reality, which given how new technology matures, is going to be much more economical to own and operate.
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Wrong #4: Corporate cronyism and coercion. Last month, General Electric, whose CEO Jeffrey Immelt chairs the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, announced that all 2012 sedans ordered by employees for corporate use will be Volts. That’s Competitive! Beginning next January 1, GE will not reimburse employees for any corporate travel unless it is done in a Volt. If GE purchases the 12,000 Volts it is committed to buying, it will get a $120 million subsidy.
1 - GE is providing these cars to their employees, so they can do whatever they want as far as reimbursement. 2 - Considering GE's industry, it seems pretty obvious that they would want to promote the technology for their own purposes.
Think of the reverse. GE goes and buys a bunch of Priuses or Leaves - people scream about how inept the Volt is, it cannot even get fleet sales! BTW, where are all of the people whining about the Leaf subsidy? This discrepancy alone makes it pretty clear that the whining and teeth-gnashing are more politically driven than anything else.
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Mark Modica, of the National Center for Policy Analysis, has uncovered another whopper. Dealers that sell Volts to nonprofits, such as municipalities, can claim the subsidy. The Obama Administration is simply determined to give away money to move this car that so few want.
Again, mixing supply and demand - hard to sell a car that most people don't have access to.
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The political calculus on the Volt may in fact be wrong. Yes, it may deliver Michigan. But people in other battleground states aren’t happy about subsidizing a car with their children’s (and grandchildren’s) future wages.
Say this when gasoline is $10/gal and we are importing EV and hybrid technology by the drove from China. Sure, it's unlikely that it'll be that expensive in a few years. But ten years from now? 20? Given how volatile fuel prices are, that's not far fetched. Do you want to be totally dependent on motor fuel for transportation when it costs $200 to fill your tank?
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 03-11-2012).]
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07:52 AM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
Originally posted by masospaghetti: BTW, where are all of the people whining about the Leaf subsidy? This discrepancy alone makes it pretty clear that the whining and teeth-gnashing are more politically driven than anything else.
They don't mind subsidizing foreign workers and corporations as long as they can hurt GM. Go figure? It's not about the cars, it's about Obama.
[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 03-11-2012).]
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08:00 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20708 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Reminding Americans that the Volt is produced domestically
Let me remind you that the most American made car component to component to the labor and all is Hyundai.
Let me remind you that GM has already made plans for the production of the Volt to be done in China, but it won't happen until after the election.
Let me remind you that the American Tax Payers owns the majority stake in GM by bailing them out in the tune of $50 billion, for which more than half of that we will never ever recover because 'old' GM was absolved from that obligation when it went into bankruptcy.
Let me remind you that Ford didn't receive a bail out.
Let me remind you that if demand was so high, wouldn't you think that GM would be putting more Volts out at the dealerships? They reason why there is so few is because hardly anybody wants one.
Let me remind you that the GM brand is damaged goods and will be until they either pay the tax payers back for their political backed bailout or GM will go into bankruptcy again and depending on who is in political power at that time, will go away like Montgomery Wards.
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08:41 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25559 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Say this when gasoline is $10/gal and we are importing EV and hybrid technology by the drove from China. Sure, it's unlikely that it'll be that expensive in a few years. But ten years from now? 20? Given how volatile fuel prices are, that's not far fetched. Do you want to be totally dependent on motor fuel for transportation when it costs $200 to fill your tank?
Not to be a jerk, but almost every single one of your points from this post are either half-truths, hypotheses, or desperate attempts at justification because you support the cause.
The cars just aren't selling... and there's good reason for that. You're basically getting a Chevy Cruze for 40 thousand dollars, that essentially costs the tax payers nearly $100,000 for each car produced. I doubt that most people here are complaining about the technology, as they are about this car in particular. This car absolutely does embody everything that is wrong with the Federal government. This car is so ripe with government beaurocracy, political disorganization, voter pay-off, and government waste... it's just so disgusting.
For all intents and purposes, the Volt is too expensive for what it offers. When compared to the Leaf, or even similar cars like the Prius, it's vastly overpriced.
Really, the only thing that makes it worth buying is that you ARE essentially getting a $100,000 car that's subsidized by the US government by almost 3/5ths the cost.
But when it comes down to it... the logic of all of this is that cars pretty much all last the same amount of time... regardless of how much you spend.
A Volkswagen Beetle is going to last the same amount of time as an Aston Martin DB Vantage when driven and maintained the same. So the question is, what exactly does the Volt offer that it's fairly similar stable mate, the Cruze, doesn't (at less than half the price). Is the Volt worth the extra $20,000 that you'd pay for the car's average 10 year lifespan? No... you'll probably never even come close to saving $20,000 in energy costs when you compare:
(Chevy Cruze annual fuel costs for 10 years) MINUS (Home Energy Costs to Charge Volt + Volt Fuel Costs) = ??
Someone smarter than I can probably run these numbers, but I'm sure the difference would probably be negligeble at best, and I would suspect that in the end, you'd end up paying THOUSANDS more (maybe even up to $10,000 more) for the Volt in ownership costs than you would simply by buying the Cruze.
I'm not mad that GM is trying, but I am mad that you and I are paying for it.
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10:27 AM
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
Originally posted by Wichita: Let me remind you that the most American made car component to component to the labor and all is Hyundai.
How much R&D does Hyundai do here in the states? Hint: not much. How many production plants does Hyundai have here? A lot fewer than GM.
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Let me remind you that GM has already made plans for the production of the Volt to be done in China, but it won't happen until after the election.
For the local Chinese market, because of their ridiculous import tariffs. I highly doubt they will farm out Volt production to China and begin exporting from there. The publicity would be suicidal. If they do, i'll happily eat my words.
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Let me remind you that the American Tax Payers owns the majority stake in GM by bailing them out in the tune of $50 billion, for which more than half of that we will never ever recover because 'old' GM was absolved from that obligation when it went into bankruptcy.
The government and tax payers own 33% of GM. They sold 28% for $20.1 billion at the end of 2010, and the ultimate amount that was "lost" because of the bailout depends on the stock price but its nowhere near $50 billion - think a maximum of $5-10 billion.
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Let me remind you that Ford didn't receive a bail out.
Let me remind you that if demand was so high, wouldn't you think that GM would be putting more Volts out at the dealerships? They reason why there is so few is because hardly anybody wants one.
Prediction: they are implementing improvements to the Volt, which is why they stopped production. Let's wait and see. But my point holds - demand is being constrained by supply, the reasons GM is restraining supply is a separate issue.
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10:49 AM
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Not to be a jerk, but almost every single one of your points from this post are either half-truths, hypotheses, or desperate attempts at justification because you support the cause.
How is anything i've said a "half-truth"? Please explain.
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The cars just aren't selling... and there's good reason for that. You're basically getting a Chevy Cruze for 40 thousand dollars, that essentially costs the tax payers nearly $100,000 for each car produced.
Speaking of misinformation and half-truth...that $100,000 number includes all support and R&D expenses and all infrastructure spending associated with the car that are fixed, upfront costs. Obviously misleading because that number drops with every car sold.
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For all intents and purposes, the Volt is too expensive for what it offers. When compared to the Leaf, or even similar cars like the Prius, it's vastly overpriced.
The Leaf has no range extension, no temperature regulation for the battery, and looks ridiculous (subjective). How about the Focus EV? it has no range extension, a 76 mile range, and costs $39,995 (about $800 more than the Volt).
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... Is the Volt worth the extra $20,000 that you'd pay for the car's average 10 year lifespan? No... you'll probably never even come close to saving $20,000 in energy costs...
Common fallacies - One, that cars only last 10 years (average lifespan is a lot longer than that); two, that the Volt is $20,000 more for a similar car (it has a lot more content than a $19,000 Cruze does); and three, that you assume fuel prices remain where they are now. The third is an especially bad assumption.
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I like pie.
Really? me too!
[This message has been edited by masospaghetti (edited 03-11-2012).]
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10:57 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25559 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
You're trying to justify the cost by saying that the cost drops every time one is sold, yet... they are not selling, and that is still what the current overhead costs are, and we still paid for all of that since at the time. You're making statements on things that haven't happened yet.
Your defense of the Volt is by bashing the competitors? How many people are going to buy the Volt as a car to take long roadtrips in? Almost no one but fleet purchasers have actually bought one yet, so again, this is at best a half-truth.
And no, it's not a common fallacy... cars do have an average lifespan of 10 years. No one cares how long cars last for YOU, they care how long it lasts for the buying public... and most people don't even know how to put their spare on. And again, more half-truths and hypotheses... you're banking that fuel prices will continue to sky-rocket during the time period of the average 10 year car ownership. Do your hypotheses also include the fact that many people get their power from power plants that actually use fuel to generate energy? Do you own a plug-in car? I owned a 36 volt Golf Cart. It was an EZ-GO from the Miami Dolphins that used to be used as a medical cart. It has six 6v deep cycle batteries. When I started to charge it nightly, I actually noticed a significant difference in my electric bill. Imagine if you charge (overnight) a car, every night that you drive back and forth to work. The second highest home expense second only to their mortgage, is their power bill. The cost of ownership is going to significantly increase. Add to that the cost (after government subsidies and tax breaks) the $41,000 MSRP on the Volt, and you've got a substancial cost to benefit deficit.
All of your arguments are based on what the Volt COULD do if the conditions were right.
If Obama really DOES want to improve the economy, reduce consumption of middle-east oil, and make America more energy dependent... then he SHOULD be focusing his argument towards natural gas. The United States has the largest supply of untapped natural gas reserves in the world (not to be confused with the most "tapped" reserves, which is Russia and China). We already have a vast infrastructure for natural gas... and there have been MANY natural gas powered vehicles over the past few years, including:
Ford Ranger Ford Crown Victoria City busses Honda Civic Ford Trucks Chevy Trucks
and pretty much any other existing vehicle. Those are just some common lines or makes / models that were routinely being sold using natural gas. Almost all of them were fleet sales, however. Natural Gas is currently trading at such a low cost, and even if the price doubled right now, it would still be substantially cheaper to power a natural gas car than it would to power a volt.
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11:36 AM
masospaghetti Member
Posts: 2477 From: Charlotte, NC USA Registered: Dec 2009
You're trying to justify the cost by saying that the cost drops every time one is sold, yet... they are not selling, and that is still what the current overhead costs are, and we still paid for all of that since at the time. You're making statements on things that haven't happened yet.
Your $100,000 value implies not a single Volt will be sold in the future, or any future vehicle that uses the same infrastructure. Incredibly misleading.
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Your defense of the Volt is by bashing the competitors? How many people are going to buy the Volt as a car to take long roadtrips in? Almost no one but fleet purchasers have actually bought one yet, so again, this is at best a half-truth.
YOU brought up it's competition when you said "For all intents and purposes, the Volt is too expensive for what it offers. When compared to the Leaf, or even similar cars like the Prius, it's vastly overpriced."
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And again, more half-truths and hypotheses... you're banking that fuel prices will continue to sky-rocket during the time period of the average 10 year car ownership.
I think banking on stable fuel prices is a much worse assumption.
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When I started to charge it nightly, I actually noticed a significant difference in my electric bill. Imagine if you charge (overnight) a car, every night that you drive back and forth to work.
This has been discussed many times that using average electric rates, charging a Volt overnight would add about $1.25 to your daily electric bill.
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Add to that the cost (after government subsidies and tax breaks) the $41,000 MSRP on the Volt, and you've got a substancial cost to benefit deficit.
Half-truths, huh? The Volt is $39,125 before tax breaks, not $41,000 after tax breaks.
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If Obama really DOES want to improve the economy, reduce consumption of middle-east oil, and make America more energy dependent... then he SHOULD be focusing his argument towards natural gas.
Natural gas is great but there's not much infrastructure in place for motor vehicle use. And they're good at different things. Chemical fuels are never going to be ideal in stop-and-go conditions because they can't recover energy from braking, where EVs can excel.
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12:12 PM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10655 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
This is only partially true. " Chemical fuels are never going to be ideal in stop-and-go conditions because they can't recover energy from braking, where EVs can excel." The truth is that EV's suck at recovering brake energy. They can not store the energy as fast as it is recoverd. practically all of the energy is wasted anyway. A small % can be recoverd and reused. Now IF or when they come up with ultra fast charge energy storage that can hold the mass amounts of energy recoverd, THEN and only then can your statement be true.
