So much for religious freedom.
http://visiontoamerica.org/...mit-for-bible-study/

quote Chuck and Stephanie Fromm already have been fined $300 for holding Bible studies for their friends at their home, and they face the potential for additional fines of $500 for each study held, according to a legal team taking their case to court. The newest conflict over Bible studies in homes in America arose in San Juan Capistrano, Calif., where city officials say city code section 9-3.301 prohibits religious organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit, a sometimes very expensive procedure. The code cites “churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations.” But a Bible study in a home? “Imposing a heavy-handed permit requirement on a home Bible study is outrageous,” said Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute, which is working on the case on behalf of the Fromms.

Only if all 'study clubs' have to pay the same fee.

I could see if they were charging a fee for the "study", but to charge for a group of people to come together like that? What about if they wanted to to discuss Jedis or play D&D?

That must be SOME city code...

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 09-17-2011).]

This city code strikes me as almost being unconstitutional. I would think a good lawyer could argue that it violates the first amendment right to free exercise of religion. It seems the intent of the conditional use permit would be to prevent the assembly and worship of religion in residential use neighborhoods.

"Home" practice of religions (such as house churches) have been around since there was religions.

Persoanlly, I've never been to a Bible Study in my life. I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding a book on my own.

However, the idea of restricting people's right to do what is effectively nothing more than a book club coffee clatch is insane. Anyone with a 3 digit IQ knows that the law is being misinterpreted or applied for personal reasons.

It's the Scopes trial in reverse

Now you know why us locals call if Kalifornia

I wonder how many people show up to their bible study. If the neighborhood becomes choked with traffic every Thurday night(or whenever) I could understand a complaint. But as usual, the cut and paste only tells one side of the story. How about if this house held a garage sale every weekend? What if they were (gasp) Muslim? Would you be ok with a hundred or so Muslim men coming together in your neighbor's home every week?

The only way I can see this being a valid issue is if the people hosting the study requested donations (like a church) for their efforts. They probably had an arguement with a former "friend" who reported them.....but thats just a guess. The other issue is that the city may consider regular gatherings at the location a commercial event and the property is zoned for residential only.

The more valid response is that California plain and simple sucks and this is how my state is trying to get ANY type of money.....by even crossing more of the religious lines.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 09-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: I wonder how many people show up to their bible study.

That is the magic question and probably what is behind this. This isn't the first time I've read about a city trying to stop a Bible Study type of home gathering. The last one I remember reading about, something like 20 cars showed up for the study each time. This of course congested traffic on the street of the home and neighbors complained. It probably woud have been ignored if it was 2 or 3 cars, but 20? Take a average city neighborhood street and shove 20 cars on it in one small strip. I would imagine, if you read into the law being sighted entirely, you will probably find a size limit and this Bible Study is exceeding it.

quote Originally posted by Fformula88: This city code strikes me as almost being unconstitutional. I would think a good lawyer could argue that it violates the first amendment right to free exercise of religion. It seems the intent of the conditional use permit would be to prevent the assembly and worship of religion in residential use neighborhoods. "Home" practice of religions (such as house churches) have been around since there was religions.

that is why i was saying if they were not singling out religious groups, i think it would be constitutional. if they also required registration for the CCC ( chaos computer club ) meeting, or Tupperware parties, or even some biker club, then i think it would be legit. ( however it would be uncool to try to regulate people on private property like that )

quote A report from the city's Dispatch newspaper said that Fromm, publisher of Worship Leader Magazine, wanted to hold Bible studies on Wednesdays that drew some 20 people, while similar studies on Sundays attracted up to 50 to their acreage that includes their home, a corral, a barn, a pool and a huge back yard.

Found this in another article.
http://www.libertynewsonlin...rticle_301_31056.php

Now, I know that sounds like a pretty big place... But my neighbors house had a their home, a horse tack shop and bar, a barn, horse pens, horse run and a huge back yard but you wouldn't want to try to get 10 cars out in front of it. Heck getting 5 cars out in front of our house right next to it when we had get togethers for birthday parties, 4th of July, Christmas and such was tight and interferred a bit with traffic (even though it was legal to park on the street).

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: In that case it would have noting to do with it being a bible study.. Just a birthday party could cause that mess. ( we get that here every so often, due to parties or funerals )

But do you have a birthday party or wake every week in your neighborhood?

As far as "the State of California" (so called "locals" may say it with a K, but proud natives like myself know how to spell) doing this for revenue, the article clearly stated that this is a municipal code, and a fine from the City of San Juan Capistrano. That is not the State.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: But do you have a birthday party or wake every week in your neighborhood? .

During the summers it sure seems like it.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: During the summers it sure seems like it.

Bet it gets kind of old. Now add about 20 more cars every week. I bet my neighbors would complain

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: But do you have a birthday party or wake every week in your neighborhood?

Or twice a week in this instance, at the same place, causing problems for the same neighbors. Here's a idea, move the damn Bible study around. Heck you have 50 people showing up on Sunday. Must be atleast people from 10+ houses. Cycle through so you only cause problems in your neighborhood once a month or so...

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-17-2011).]

I think we are dwelling too much on the rights of the people who live in an (extremely) affluent area, who paid a lot of money to live in a peaceful environment. So what if these people use a Municipal Code to address a nuisance, these people coming in from outside the community have a right to worship Jebus wherever they wish! Damn those heathen Kalifornians, using a Municipal Code that many other cities and counties use throughout the nation!

http://www.useful-community...g/church-zoning.html

[This message has been edited by WhiteDevil88 (edited 09-17-2011).]

Did somebody piss off the local atheist?

At first glance it looks realy bad for the City. But dig in a little bit and see that "if" twice a week they take up every parking spot in the street (for ANY reason) it would be a HUGE pain in the but. If that were next to my house and they forced me to have to park my own car three or four houses away twice a week, yes I would do something about it too. That is EXACTLY why we have Churches and large facilities that can be rented.

The city said that enforcement of the law is based on complaints. There had been tons of complaints and they finally had to do something about it. It wasn't arbitrary like the original article suggested.

The streets are public... I can see how it would be problematic, but I'm not sure how it can be illegal. If I'm having 100 people at my house and they park along the streets everywhere around, as long as they don't park in driveways and we don't break noise restrictions or anything I don't see what can be wrong with that...

law breakers should be dealt with severely
in the traditional manor
send them to the lions

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

this doesnt suprise me its california where all the d-bags are politicans and make dumb laws. my only question is why do people still live there? and on a personal note id rather have home bible studies rather than large organized churchs lends a little bit more credibility to what they are doing instead of making seem like another corporation. not to mention there are like 15 churches every 10 blocks from 7 different religions.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: How about if this house held a garage sale every weekend? What if they were (gasp) Muslim? Would you be ok with a hundred or so Muslim men coming together in your neighbor's home every week?

Having a garage sale every week is a business tax problem, most areas also require permits to have Garage sales.

As for the Muslim gatherings, I don't see how that could be viewed as a problem, unless they do as the Mung do and have loud music, and drink for 24 hours or so I don't see an issue. Religious freedom is religious freedom for a reason.

This is a fee charged for gathering, not parking. If there is an issue with parking then the city can put in "no parking" signs, or a time limit on parking, require permits, put in meters etc and control parking that way. As the story reads the people could pick them up in a private bus, and still be fined for the study group.

Brad

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: this doesnt suprise me its california where all the d-bags are politicans and make dumb laws. my only question is why do people still live there? and on a personal note id rather have home bible studies rather than large organized churchs lends a little bit more credibility to what they are doing instead of making seem like another corporation. not to mention there are like 15 churches every 10 blocks from 7 different religions.

FYI, the Fromms are a corporation. They are the owner of one of the largest Chistian publishing companies in the world, and a successful record label. This guy sits on boards of many companies. According to White Pages, the street he lives on is a narrow winding road in the hills where home values are in the $850-950k. They are not poor people who are being denied religious freedom, they are wealthy individuals with an aggressive legal team who are suing the city. They can afford to pay fines, and they can afford to follow the law when it comes to obtaining a conditional use permit, just as happens in towns and cities across the nation, not only in California. I am sure that in your neighborhood no one complains about code violations, the agreement that we make to society for everyone's benefit. I am sure that old broken cars decorate the front lawn of every trailer in the park, and people sell bathtub cheese door to door with salmonella, and the lady who operates the beauty parlor in her doublewide has no problem injecting your mom with hot beef fat in the face to smooth away those pucker marks from 50 years of sucking on unfiltered Pall Malls. But in municipalities where there are actual homeowners who pay substantial taxes expect their local government to act. If you don't want your neighbors rights interfering with you white trash birthright, go live in Missouri.

[This message has been edited by WhiteDevil88 (edited 09-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: FYI, the Fromms are a corporation. They are the owner of one of the largest Chistian publishing companies in the world, and a successful record label. This guy sits on boards of many companies. According to White Pages, the street he lives on is a narrow winding road in the hills where home values are in the $850-950k. They are not poor people who are being denied religious freedom, they are wealthy individuals with an aggressive legal team who are suing the city. They can afford to pay fines, and they can afford to follow the law when it comes to obtaining a conditional use permit, just as happens in towns and cities across the nation, not only in California. I am sure that in your neighborhood no one complains about code violations, the agreement that we make to society for everyone's benefit. I am sure that old broken cars decorate the front lawn of every trailer in the park, and people sell bathtub cheese door to door with salmonella, and the lady who operates the beauty parlor in her doublewide has no problem injecting your mom with hot beef fat in the face to smooth away those pucker marks from 50 years of sucking on unfiltered Pall Malls. But in municipalities where there are actual homeowners who pay substantial taxes expect their local government to act. If you don't want your neighbors rights interfering with you white trash birthright, go live in Missouri.

wow someone has issues. i say that was alittle uncalled for but its all good if i really cared about your opinion i would be crying but i dont and this is just the internet. as for code violations its one thing to come up with a code forbiding multiple parked cars on a narrow street ( as i live on one and when the kids down the road park thier cars on the road to blay basketball in the park i get annoyed) but to deny someone a freedom because of parking issues doesnt make sense....in thier own home none the less. btw im not religous but that doesnt stop me from fighting for what i think is right no matter the case. as for the fromms owning a corporation and having the money to pay for fines or even permits for this is besides the point. just because you have money doesnt mean you should be willing or even have to give it away for no reason especially to the government. and agian with your comments it just proves the amount of trash that is in california.....just another shining expample of the education. although i do realize that there are quite a few great people on the forum from california those remarks are not directed towards them.

oh and another little side note whether it be for religion a bbq some tennis or whatever the reason to require a permit for gathering on private property instated by the government is wrong no matter where it is. now if this was an HOA (that means home owners assocation for you whitedevil) then thats a totally differnt story as when you buy a home in a gated community you sign waviers and such agreeing to terms. but clearly this is not the case and is just another example of the government overstepping its bounds it just so happens that it happened in california.

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 09-19-2011).]

what is wrong with using the actual dedicated tax free building known as a Church? is has all the proper facilities, parking, space, etc...?

everyone with a spec of cranium knows the issue is regular clogging of the streets. that is why we have zoning laws. you dont put high traffic items in residential areas. that is troublesome. and, yes, large scale D&D games have had this very same issue. just most D&D'ers dont have enough freinds for this to be an issue.....

but, feel free to whine & cry, and nail yourself to a cross over this - the truth plain & simple parking.
I suppose SOOOOMMME folk just dont have any common decency? cant think of anyone but themselves.....

Anyone bother to look up the actual city ordinanace? Here is is:

Municipal Code

We had what I am guessing is a similar incindet in our neighborhood. On multiple nights during the week, 30 to 50 cars would be parked as near as they could to a house where regular "Bible Study" meetings were being held. That many excess cars on the already small and overcrowded street were not just an annoyance, but a hazzard as well. Alhtough they are trying to make it out to be, this is not a case of religious freedom. It is a case of inappropriate use of a residential area.

Unfortunately, a google search turns up page after page of results about this "trampling of religious freedom", but I have yet to find any factual information such as how many friends are showing up, or how often do they hold the "meetings"?

Bible Study? Car Club? whats the diff?

do people or do they not have the right to free assembly? My heart bleeds for all those neighbors who have to actually park in their driveways because the street parking is taken, let's lock 'em up! That'll teach them whose in charge!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Bible Study? Car Club? whats the diff? do people or do they not have the right to free assembly? My heart bleeds for all those neighbors who have to actually park in their driveways because the street parking is taken, let's lock 'em up! That'll teach them whose in charge!

none. that is why car clubs are not allowed to be selfish like that either. ever see what car club guys have to go thru to get a gathering? and that is just once a year. these selfish azzhats want to cause residential disruptions weekly, or even twice a week.

there already exists a tax free building for these cry babies to study the Jew God, but apparantly, they dont even want these ______?

this is why there are halls for rent. buildings for rent. tax free churches. there are plenty of proper ways for these folk to reinforce each others superstitions, without having to impact other folk.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: none. that is why car clubs are not allowed to be selfish like that either. ever see what car club guys have to go thru to get a gathering? and that is just once a year. these selfish azzhats want to cause residential disruptions weekly, or even twice a week. there already exists a tax free building for these cry babies to study the Jew God, but apparantly, they dont even want these ______? this is why there are halls for rent. buildings for rent. tax free churches. there are plenty of proper ways for these folk to reinforce each others superstitions, without having to impact other folk.

I've had the car club over to my house before for a BBQ or Tech Session. I would hardly call that "selfish". But next time you throw a party I'll be sure to send the Party Police over to your house to take your application for a permit to "get down" in your own house.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I've had the car club over to my house before for a BBQ or Tech Session. I would hardly call that "selfish". But next time you throw a party I'll be sure to send the Party Police over to your house to take your application for a permit to "get down" in your own house.

yes, and graduation parties, and all kinds of single event stuff

its the regular week after week BS

go and have your Tech Session every tuesday night, and have 30-50 cars parked out front and see how many weeks go by unnoticed

there is no way you can try to spin this as unfair. but, nice try.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes, and graduation parties, and all kinds of single event stuff its the regular week after week BS go and have your Tech Session every tuesday night, and have 30-50 cars parked out front and see how many weeks go by unnoticed there is no way you can try to spin this as unfair. but, nice try.

I don't have to, Fierobear has them all the time in his yard. Hey Bear! Ever had to get a permit? Ever had a single neighbor complain?

This should prove educational

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I don't have to, Fierobear has them all the time in his yard. Hey Bear! Ever had to get a permit? Ever had a single neighbor complain? This should prove educational

and there is the key: nieghbor complain.
in his yard.

not street clogging nuisance

but, good of you to mention that there ARE places to do this junk. and some residential home in a lot in a subdivision is NOT it.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and there is the key: nieghbor complain. in his yard. not street clogging nuisance but, good of you to mention that there ARE places to do this junk. and some residential home in a lot in a subdivision is NOT it.

Bear lives in a subdivision...cookie cutter homes all around him. True, most people park on his yard and not on the street. But this is hardly the point, the point is that just because someone complains does NOT make it necessary for government to do something. I'm tired of Big Bother trying to solved all of our problems by merely taking away all our freedoms. Thanks anyway, I prefer to simply be an adult and ask my neighbor to be more thoughtful and perhaps rotate homes for their little get togethers.

Smaller government and more personal responsibility..yeah, it works!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Bear lives in a subdivision...cookie cutter homes all around him. True, most people park on his yard and not on the street. But this is hardly the point, the point is that just because someone complains does NOT make it necessary for government to do something. I'm tired of Big Bother trying to solved all of our problems by merely taking away all our freedoms. Thanks anyway, I prefer to simply be an adult and ask my neighbor to be more thoughtful and perhaps rotate homes for their little get togethers. Smaller government and more personal responsibility..yeah, it works!

yeah - it does work - until people like the opening topic abuse it. how it works every time. its all good until azzhats come along and screw it up for everyone.
I am sure bear doesnt have these events once a week during a weekday. I can see getting away with that once a month at best, on a weekend.

but, what really confuses me is why they do not use the already dedicated tax free building?
are they that troublesome that they dont even want this crowd at the dedicated building?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yeah - it does work - until people like the opening topic abuse it. how it works every time. its all good until azzhats come along and screw it up for everyone. I am sure bear doesnt have these events once a week during a weekday. I can see getting away with that once a month at best, on a weekend. but, what really confuses me is why they do not use the already dedicated tax free building? are they that troublesome that they dont even want this crowd at the dedicated building?

Winston Churchill once said (I'm paraphrasing) {Democracies are the messiest and worst forms of government, except for all the others}

We live with people who have different values and standards of courtesy than ourselves and we demonstrate tolerance. I do not like it when my neighbor behind me has constant late night pool parties but I never called the cops on him. He isn't a bad guy, just a little thoughtless at times. I have to put up with some things in life that I do not enjoy and that is just the way it is. If he started throwing things into my yard, and shooting guns, and breaking down the fence, etc, then I would have a strong talk, then perhaps the cops, but in the end, I am not going to have a law made that forces him to stop partying, because what happens when I want to party? Thin end of the wedge.

I like the Stossle rule, for every law the government creates, they should revoke two. We create laws all the time with no thought to their impact on us and we are slowly seeing our freedoms become subject to the whims of law enforcement. For example, if a cop pulls you over, he can arrest you for damn near anything. broken tail ight, suction cup on the windshield, failing to signal, some fo the most trivial laws are on the books because it gives authority an excuse to hold you. Does it do anything for safety? Really? in the grand scheme? Not really. But we have these useless laws because it gives authority a reason to hold you if they want to. I do not like that one damn bit. I accept the consequenses of a free society. I don't want to be a victim anymore than you do, but I would rather be a victim of a citizen than my government.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: there are plenty of proper ways for these folk to reinforce each others superstitions, without having to impact other folk.

Man, I'm not religious, at all. But this has turned into some kind of hate spiel from you two.

First the "they can afford to go elsewhere" argument. I don't care if it's a billionaire, they shouldn't have to pay to practice their religion. That's a cornerstone of our Country.

Then the comments, such as "to reinforce each others superstitions". Really, that's the argument? Why not just call people a booger head and run home?

Like I said earlier, if it's a traffic problem they can ticket the cars, or change the parking laws to protect the neighbors, but they are not doing that, they are fining the meeting itself. Therefore it's a simple observation to say that they have a problem with the meeting, not the traffic.

Brad

quote Originally posted by theBDub: The streets are public... I can see how it would be problematic, but I'm not sure how it can be illegal. If I'm having 100 people at my house and they park along the streets everywhere around, as long as they don't park in driveways and we don't break noise restrictions or anything I don't see what can be wrong with that...

causing a public nuisance and disturbance of the peace for 2 reasons. Safety for a 3rd

quote Originally posted by KidO: Anyone bother to look up the actual city ordinanace? Here is is: Municipal Code We had what I am guessing is a similar incindet in our neighborhood. On multiple nights during the week, 30 to 50 cars would be parked as near as they could to a house where regular "Bible Study" meetings were being held. That many excess cars on the already small and overcrowded street were not just an annoyance, but a hazzard as well. Alhtough they are trying to make it out to be, this is not a case of religious freedom. It is a case of inappropriate use of a residential area. Unfortunately, a google search turns up page after page of results about this "trampling of religious freedom", but I have yet to find any factual information such as how many friends are showing up, or how often do they hold the "meetings"?

Interesting that nobody here responded to your post... This thread wasn't about the subject, it was just a seed post for more of the kind of mutual mob ranting that passes for "discourse" on this forum nowadays.

ok in the end should these people be having 30-50 cars in the road multipletime a week? no they shouldnt. should the goverment put a ban on bible study? no they shouldnt. what should be done is a law that states you cannont park on the road or something similar not banning a group assembly. both parties are wrong for differnt reasons