quote Originally posted by KidO: Anyone bother to look up the actual city ordinanace? Here is is: Municipal Code

Actually, yes I did look it up.

quote Unfortunately, a google search turns up page after page of results about this "trampling of religious freedom", but I have yet to find any factual information such as how many friends are showing up, or how often do they hold the "meetings"?

The only thing I found about how many show up is what I posted earlier in the thread. The Bible Studies are held twice a week, Wednesday and Sunday. Wednesday usually see's about 30 people showing up and about 50 people on Sundays. No mention of how many vehicles, but /shrug I doubt they all come in one. Without being able to observe the events themselves, see the number of vehicles and what type of roadway they are parking on, we can only speculate as to the reason behind the cities decision. I tend to think it's parking related and interferring with the flow of traffic gives the city cause to try to remedy the situation. Did they go about it properly? Probably not. San Diego also had a similiar issue where they did what San Jaun did and later retracted the citations with an apology. I do not know what happened after that. I would speculate that they put up some kind of parking restrictions in the area. Here's a idea for San Juan, line the street with parking meters. Make some money off these people, LOL.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Interesting that nobody here responded to your post... This thread wasn't about the subject, it was just a seed post for more of the kind of mutual mob ranting that passes for "discourse" on this forum nowadays.

My mob is better than your mob!

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: I could see if they were charging a fee for the "study", but to charge for a group of people to come together like that? What about if they wanted to to discuss Jedis or play D&D? That must be SOME city code...

agreed.. but due the the source of this article, i feel there is something more too it than that.. How large was this group of people?, and where they charging or taking donations?, or was it just a group of friends getting together to read the bible? The article doesn't clarify any of this important information.. But if you got like 20 or 30 people showing up to your house for bible study a couple times a week, your basically using your house as a church.. sorry.

[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 09-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: The only thing I found about how many show up is what I posted earlier in the thread. The Bible Studies are held twice a week, Wednesday and Sunday. Wednesday usually see's about 30 people showing up and about 50 people on Sundays. No mention of how many vehicles, but /shrug I doubt they all come in one. Without being able to observe the events themselves, see the number of vehicles and what type of roadway they are parking on, we can only speculate as to the reason behind the cities decision. I tend to think it's parking related and interferring with the flow of traffic gives the city cause to try to remedy the situation. Did they go about it properly? Probably not. San Diego also had a similiar issue where they did what San Jaun did and later retracted the citations with an apology. I do not know what happened after that. I would speculate that they put up some kind of parking restrictions in the area. Here's a idea for San Juan, line the street with parking meters. Make some money off these people, LOL.

I am glad that I am not the only one curious to what the law said. It would however be interesting to hear both sides of the story.

The addition of parking meters would do nothing but change the headline... "City Forces Christians To Pay To Attend Religious Services"

I see this as nothing more than a simple matter of zoning. According to the municpal code, the city has 14 distinct zoning types. Each zone allows or disallows certain things. This is going to be the same in any city. If I live in a residential area I should expect that the only thing on my street would be personal residences. If someone starts to hold regular religious services out of their home, this would violate what is allowed to happen in that zone. It is no different than someone opening a storefront out of their house. If these people feel that their religious service is appropriate for the area they should petition the city for a zoning change. Put it to a vote and let the community decide. Unfortunately, someone grabbed hold of this story, made a sensationalistic headline, and it became a political hot button allover the conservative blogoshpere.

Is the city specifically targeting only religious gatherings or is it going after everyone who routinely creates an event in a residential neighborhood? If it can be proven that they are only targeting this particular gathering, then they have some explaining to do. However, if the ordinance is being equally enforced, then the Bible study group needs to accept the fact that they are not being persecuted for their beliefs, but only for breaking the law. I wonder how it will turn out...

quote Originally posted by TK: My mob is better than your mob!

Now THAT is funny right there!..in a Nathanael West sortof way

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: If you don't want your neighbors rights interfering with you white trash birthright, go live in Missouri.

said the guy from Oklahoma.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: agreed.. but due the the source of this article, i feel there is something more too it than that.. How large was this group of people?, and where they charging or taking donations?, or was it just a group of friends getting together to read the bible? The article doesn't clarify any of this important information.. But if you got like 20 or 30 people showing up to your house for bible study a couple times a week, your basically using your house as a church.. sorry.

A guy can use their home for a church if they want to also. They can charge if they want to also, just like a party with a cover charge. We are just assuming the problem is parking. If that is so they should use some common sense and carpool, or use a home of one of the people who live rural. There really is no data in this story stating why is there? We are just guessing.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: said the guy from Oklahoma.

From Oklahoma? In the sense like, I just came from the store? Sure. But I am California native.

I'm TOTALLY biased. Putting that out there up front. Staunch constitutionalist. And staunch christian. That is the foundation where I am coming from.


My assessment.

I don't see this one as religious persecution at all. I see it as a neighborhood nuisance and a public disruption issue.


When people buy a home in a neighborhood, they have a certain expectation of what the neighborhood will be like. That is part of what they are buying. Now I know the property rights are strictly confined to their own property, but there is a neighborhood "standard" that, while unwritten and probably even unspoken, exists.


Understanding neighbors are going to, in order to be neighborly, put up with a certain amount of deviation from that "standard". Parties. Christmas. Special occasions.

But a weekly (in this case TWICE weekly!) disruption of the neighborhood to THAT degree?


Those christians are just being rude. Yes, they technically have the right to assembly AT their house. But they are abusing the right. They are completely disrespecting their neighbors. What? Just because they are "doing something good", that justifies being a HORRENDOUS neighbor?


I understand the whole home-Bible-study movement. I get it. It is an atmosphere different than church. Some people won't go to church, but they will go to someone's home. I get it. I did a home Bible study weekly, and then every other week, for about 4 years. It was INTENTIONALLY limited in size to not bother the neighbors. AND, we have a driveway where 3 to 4 of the cars could fit.

My neighbor had a youth group come to his house for activities and there were probably 10 cars in front of his (and my) house, with teenage (ie. loud. not obnoxious. just loud) people coming over and leaving relatively later. But it was maybe 3 to 4 times per year.


The guy has means. He can RENT a place if he wants that many people. Or he can rotate it around a group of that size. Whatever.

The point is there are ways TO BE A GOOD NEIGHBOR. Which he is supposed to try to do if he is really the dedicated christian to host a Bible study.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: No, you can not use your home as a church. .

I guess it depends on your definition of church and its purpose.
Since that varies widley I would say we are both right.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I guess it depends on your definition of church and its purpose. Since that varies widley I would say we are both right.

Well, if we are making up definitions, my home is a restaurant. I have food, tables for people to eat at, and kitchen facilities. Are zoning laws that keep restaurants out of my neighborhood denying my right to eat food?

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: No, you can not use your home as a church. That is like saying that I can use my home as a Methamphetamine lab, if I want to. Sure, I have the space, and the ingredients are apparently still available enough for it to be a problem... However, there are laws to protect my neighbors and the rest of society from people doing whatever they want to do, and these laws existed prior to the Fromms moving into their million dollar hillside home. They were not created to persecute the religious freedom of this group of multi millionaires who have a staff of publicists and lawyers flooding the Internet with a one sided and extremely self serving account of the legal action. Parking is a secondary issue, however a very real one. White Pages lookup lists the Fromms address as being on Branding Iron Road. I challenge you to look up Branding Iron Road on Google Street View. Imagine this winding street lined on either side with cars, and then imagine you needing emergency vehicles dispatched to your million dollar home. Imagine needing to evacuate in case of a mountain wildfire (look up Oakland Hills wildfire for a good example) with fire trucks rushing to extinguish the flames rushing towards your dream home. The road is barely wide enough for two cars to pass. It is true that the publicists and lawyers have done a commendable job of muddying the issue to make it seem like a constitutional issue. It will be interested to see how it turns out, although when they lose I doubt that the Fromm's publicity team will keep us informed.

Or alien attacks. what about those!!

Speaking of muddying the issue..... Have you read this WD guys posts? He makes up arguments, and then if anyone disagrees with him he makes fun of their family.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Or alien attacks. what about those!! Speaking of muddying the issue..... Have you read this WD guys posts? He makes up arguments, and then if anyone disagrees with him he makes fun of their family. Brad

Ok, I will play. How did I make fun of someone's family?

Alien attacks? Is that what you fear? Or are you trying to infer that wildfires are not a valid concern? Or, more likely you can't resist trolling my posts because the argument was long lost?

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Ok, I will play. How did I make fun of someone's family? Alien attacks? Is that what you fear? Or are you trying to infer that wildfires are not a valid concern? Or, more likely you can't resist trolling my posts because the argument was long lost?

Remember, if you're not agreeing with someone you're attacking them... It's the default setting if you're not on their side on some issue...

Well, having given fact based information, it seems as all that is left for those without a valid argument are personal attacks. So I love it when someone says nasty things about me, it means that I out thought them.

[This message has been edited by WhiteDevil88 (edited 09-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Remember, if you're not agreeing with someone you're attacking them... It's the default setting if you're not on their side on some issue...

Kind of like if you aren't agreeing with someone, it is another hate thread.

More information here:

http://www.pacificjustice.o...nes-home-bible-study

quote City With Religious Roots Fines Home Bible Study City: San Juan Capistrano, CA Date: 09/13/2011 A city in Southern California is demanding that a small home Bible study group stop meeting unless they obtain a cost-prohibitive permit. The homeowners, Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, were fined $300 for holding the Bible study. Mr. Fromm appealed the ruling to the City of San Juan Capistrano, which was founded as a mission in the late 1700’s and is home to California’s oldest building still in use, a chapel where Father Junipero Serra celebrated mass. Fromm was told by a hearing officer that regular gatherings of more than three people require a conditional use permit. Officials also stated that further religious gatherings in the home would be subject to a $500 fine per meeting. The City eventually rejected the appeal and Pacific Justice Institute has taken the next step by appealing the decision to the California Superior Court in Orange County. The Bible study group, which met on Sunday mornings, until the City threatened further fines, was perfectly suited for his home, said Chuck Fromm. There was no noise beyond normal conversation and quiet music on the home stereo system. They met inside their family room and patio area. Many neighbors have written letters of support, denying they were disturbed by the presence of the Bible study. The group is not affiliated with any particular church, nor is it seeking to establish a church in the home. The City of San Juan Capistrano is insisting the home Bible study is not allowed because it is a “church,” and churches require a Conditional Use Permit (CUP) in residential areas. Pacific Justice Institute represents the Bible study participants and will fight the city’s decision. In other cases, PJI has represented larger churches that have been required to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars as part of the CUP process, such as engineering and traffic studies, architectural designs and seismic retrofits. CUP’s require public hearings and can be denied outright or granted with numerous limitations. “Imposing a heavy-handed permit requirement on a home Bible study is outrageous,” said Brad Dacus, president of Pacific Justice Institute. “In a city so rich with religious history and tradition, this is particularly egregious. An informal gathering in a home cannot be treated with suspicion by the government, or worse than any other gathering of friends, just because it is religious. We cannot allow this to happen in America, and we will fight as long and as hard as it takes to restore this group’s religious freedom.”

I guess they must ban Avon, Amway, D&D, Fantasy Football Leagues, Car Clubs, "King of the Hill" front lawn gatherings, Super Bowl Parties, 4th of July BBQs, Cinco De Mayo celebrations and anything else that involves "regular gatherings of more than three people". So much for the right to peaceably assemble.

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[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 09-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: More information here: http://www.pacificjustice.o...nes-home-bible-study I guess they must ban Avon, Amway, D&D, Fantasy Football Leagues, Car Clubs, "King of the Hill" front lawn gatherings, Super Bowl Parties, 4th of July BBQs, Cinco De Mayo celebrations and anything else that involves "regular gatherings of more than three people". So much for the right to peaceably assemble.

In that zoning district. The code includes churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations. All require a conditional use permit. I agree that 3 people seems an arbitrary amount of people, but what number would you choose? And here is an interesting what if. What if Chuck Fromm was a motorcycle enthusiast, and he decided that his house would be a great clubhouse for his biker bros. If you lived next door, would you not want him to abide by the law?

As someone who regularly (four to six days a week in the warm weather) has to deal with the parking issues and the noise of a regular gathering - softball games - I think that the city is full of crap. A Bible Study is not a Church any more than, as noted above, your kitchen is a restaurant.

I moved into a neighborhood that included a softball field across the street. On Saturday mornings in the Summer, especially the ones that I don't have to work, I wake to the "tink!" of softballs hitting aluminum bats (which, speaking of church, is sacrilegious. Real bats are made of wood.) and fifteen to twenty cars parked on the other side of the street (Parking is prohibited on my side). Many of them park up the street because the occasional foul ball leaves the park backward and hits a car parked in the field's lot. Even when softball season is over, then the town comes in and marks up the outfield for kids' soccer games, when a whole new group parks up three streets, until the Condos' HOA comes and threatens them over their access.

When I moved in, there was a softball field. If I didn't realize that there were going to be softball games held there, then I'd be an idiot. I also moved in next to a nice family with four kids who are all older than mine. I should have known that at least ONE of them would A) entertain thoughts of joining a band and even rehearsing in the basement room facing our house, or B) Failing that, that he might hold Poker Night two or three times a week.

Aside from the couple of times that he and his friends were a bit rowdy until about two o'clock AM, I just deal with it all. It comes from living in a nice neighborhood with good neighbors. The next time I see "G," I tell him that I thought that the one particular joke was quite amusing, and he realizes his faux pas, and, at least, tries to keep it down the next time, well that's OK by me. They're not running a meth lab, or anything, and, I'd expect that all the activity does keep the illicit stuff away.

Church is not a "refill station." We don't just get our hour and a half fix each Sunday morning, then hop into our cars and go live our lives. Getting deeper into the Book and into the books that make up the Book, as well as learning the background behind the backgrounds - putting things in context - is sometimes better done in a small group. Is 50 people a small group? I seem to remember one of the radio evangelists lead a church in SJC, and I'd have to think that it would probably have to be bigger than mine (~100 members).

Are the homeowners doing something illegal? No. Are they bringing down property values? No. Suck it up. For five or six hours a week, there are a few extra cars on the street, bringing people who are smiling and carrying books over to the neighbor's house. Maybe there's something good going on over there. I'm sure that they'd welcome number 51 with open arms.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Or alien attacks. what about those!! Speaking of muddying the issue..... Have you read this WD guys posts? He makes up arguments, and then if anyone disagrees with him he makes fun of their family. Brad

i noticed that! lol thats why im not even going to bother argueing the point with him its like talking to a retarded bog or something.....actually i think the dog would be more receptive.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: i noticed that! lol thats why im not even going to bother argueing the point with him its like talking to a retarded bog or something.....actually i think the dog would be more receptive.

I think the dog might actually be the most entertaining thing in Trevor, Wisconsin.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: i noticed that! lol thats why im not even going to bother argueing the point with him its like talking to a retarded bog or something.....actually i think the dog would be more receptive.

WTH is a retarded bog? Is it like a normal bog, just not as much water?

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-21-2011).]

Frontallobe said it eloquently enough. Not a good neighbor.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Frontallobe said it eloquently enough. Not a good neighbor.

Yes, he usually does. He's someone I actually wouldn't mind meeting in RL.

i think this pertains to you white devil......its the only explaination....you are your own grandpa

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 09-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: In that zoning district. The code includes churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations. All require a conditional use permit. I agree that 3 people seems an arbitrary amount of people, but what number would you choose? And here is an interesting what if. What if Chuck Fromm was a motorcycle enthusiast, and he decided that his house would be a great clubhouse for his biker bros. If you lived next door, would you not want him to abide by the law?

A Bible study is not anything you listed.

If a motorcycle club had regular meetings next door to me, I would not have a problem at all so long as they are not doing anything dangerous like stunt riding or waking everyone up at odd hours.

A Hmong family on my street celebrated some kind of festival for three weeks straight a few months ago. They set up several tables in their front yard and had 30+ people gather together every night to eat and celebrate. Most of the street's parking was taken every night for three weeks. No one complained to the city because my street is not full of assholes. Luckily, most of the assholes live in HOA's where I hope they stay.

I encourage anyone that wants to live with rules imposed on them and want to enjoy imposing rules on your neighbors, then move into a neighborhood with a HOA and leave everyone else alone.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: http://www.pacificjustice.o...nes-home-bible-study "regular gatherings of more than three people require a conditional use permit. Officials also stated that further religious gatherings in the home would be subject to a $500 fine per meeting. The City eventually rejected the appeal and Pacific Justice Institute has taken the next step"

What is this some kind of marshall law thing?
So in anyone's home if you have 3 or more over "regularly" without a permit it is illegal? So does it matter if they all came in one car?
The details make this more distubing, I was hoping they would make it less disturbing.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: i think this pertains to you white devil......its the only explaination....you are your own grandpa

Did "The Stupids" finally hit the Trevor, Wisconsin multiplex? You are going to love "Beverly Hills Ninja".

My grandfather would sign that to me in the 50's. I thought it was very twisted.

and - again - why can these people NOT use the existing tax free building already dedicated to this kind stuff?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - again - why can these people NOT use the existing tax free building already dedicated to this kind stuff?

Because then they wouldn't have "cause" to file a lawsuit against the city.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - again - why can these people NOT use the existing tax free building already dedicated to this kind stuff?

and - again - there are people who would not go to a Bible study or anything else, for that matter, in a church. Know anyone like that?

This is why I have 40 acres in the country, I can invite anyone I want in as many cars as they want to bring, and we can fire assault rifles all night long without a problem!!

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - again - why can these people NOT use the existing tax free building already dedicated to this kind stuff?

This from a guy who thinks some laws overstep bounds because you should be able to drive around drunk or high because until you speed or run someone over you are not breaking any of the (other) existing laws?

"Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests. The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty."

OK seriously now, I am a Christian and believe that you should be able to hold a bible study in your home without needing to go to "the church", OR get a permit. That said, if it is a problem with traffic or parking, then find a way to work with your neighbors or hold it in a different location at different times. Getting a permit for more than 3 people at a time in your own home is stupid no matter how you look at it. Pretty soon government will be able to tell us what phone we have to buy, what plan to use, and who we can and can't talk to. The least amount of government possible is the best way to go in my opinion. This country wasn't founded on the principle that we need to find a rule and law for every single situation, it was founded on freedoms as long as those freedoms do not take someone else's away.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Very good point. What if they came in four vans? Would anyone care less? Probably not. Someone would still complain, giving the city reason to turn the screws. EDIT: And, in the reverse, what if (because this guy owns a Christian company) gays decided that once a year (i.e., regularly) they would protest on the street outside his house. This would, undoubtedly, tie up traffic and be inconvenient to the neighbors. Would anyone complain then? Would the city ( do anything? (Of course, the ACLU and gay groups would probably front permit fees....)

So the Fromms allegedly bus in individuals from another location? I wonder why they just don't go ahead and study their Bibles at that location? Maybe there is another reason to be going to the Fromm residence, perhaps in order to violate laws in order to get the case into the courts. If your premise is true, I still challenge you to look at the street in Google Street View. This is a very narrow cul de sac with 8 houses, ranch style homes with minimal off street parking (two or three car driveways) and no on street parking. Four 12 passenger vans would still take up a lot of space.

And what's up with picking on the gays? Is that the antithesis of being a Christian, being gay? I feel for those who have the misfortune of being born both. At any rate, I am sure that if a bunch of queers started demonstrating outside their home, San Juan Capistrano cops would go on a Tazer rampage. I would find it more likely that they might demonstrate outside their business or church then outside a home where only 8 families and their housekeepers and gardeners might see their picket. Plus, I agree that hypothetical group might have better counsel then to have people violate laws to make their point, and all fees would be payed and local codes obeyed. That is why gays might make better neighbors then Christians.