quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: So the Fromms allegedly bus in individuals from another location? I wonder why they just don't go ahead and study their Bibles at that location? Maybe there is another reason to be going to the Fromm residence, perhaps in order to violate laws in order to get the case into the courts. If your premise is true, I still challenge you to look at the street in Google Street View. This is a very narrow cul de sac with 8 houses, ranch style homes with minimal off street parking (two or three car driveways) and no on street parking. Four 12 passenger vans would still take up a lot of space. I would find it more likely that they might demonstrate outside their business or church then outside a home where only 8 families and their housekeepers and gardeners might see their picket. Plus, I agree that hypothetical group might have better counsel then to have people violate laws to make their point, and all fees would be payed and local codes obeyed.

If a law is unjust you have to take it to court to get it noticed. I didn't see anywhere that anyone was picketing anything. If they were it would be peacable protest which would be legal too no? No they were going in the house and reading and talking. You think that should be illegal? Even just 3 of them is enough to be a crime, its rediculous.
So anyway all the talk about blocking traffic on a culdesac, was it reported that that was occuring or is that still a guess as to anything that would come close to a ligitimate reason anyone even noticed the people gathered?

no one cares what they are doing - just stop clogging the streets.
thats it. just stop clogging the streets.

is simple consideration of others lost here?

there are plenty of places they can do this. they are choosing to be inconsiderate of others. the more this get debated, the more these people are looking like the Phelps. another fine group of "christians" imposing themselves upon others.......

quote Originally posted by balejumper: OK seriously now, I am a Christian and believe that you should be able to hold a bible study in your home without needing to go to "the church", OR get a permit. That said, if it is a problem with traffic or parking, then find a way to work with your neighbors or hold it in a different location at different times. Getting a permit for more than 3 people at a time in your own home is stupid no matter how you look at it. Pretty soon government will be able to tell us what phone we have to buy, what plan to use, and who we can and can't talk to. The least amount of government possible is the best way to go in my opinion. This country wasn't founded on the principle that we need to find a rule and law for every single situation, it was founded on freedoms as long as those freedoms do not take someone else's away.

Mr. Jumper, respectfully, I don't think that you are getting it. They aren't interested in trying to find a way to work it out. They are pressing the issue. It is called "Civil Disobediance", and I respect that they have the right to make an issue over it. I just don't happen to believe that their position is either right or Christian. I believe that in this case, the Fromms are being poor neighbors, and poor witnesses of Christ. They could easily find other homes to host the Bible Study. But then, the code would not apply to them. It applies to regular gatherings. So the Fromms had meetings twice weekly, every week, until someone inevitably complains enough to get the Fromms cited. Great news! Now the Fromms can get their lawyers filing and their publicists can start spamming the Internet with a self serving account of their case.

Call me a cynic, but I grew up in the fundamentalist environment that contributed to the Fromm's affluence, and Sunday and Wednesday are Church days. Basically all day Sunday is spent at Church, from Sunday School through Morning Sermon, followed generally by pot luck lunches, run home for a quick nap and back to church by 6:30 for evening worship. Wednesday night worship service would start by 7:00 (although in Southern California I question the possibility of that.) So, is Chuck Fromm's twice weekly Bible study pre-empting the local church service, or is that where he recruited the approximately 50 participants of his Bible Study?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: no one cares what they are doing - just stop clogging the streets. thats it. just stop clogging the streets. is simple consideration of others lost here? there are plenty of places they can do this. they are choosing to be inconsiderate of others. the more this get debated, the more these people are looking like the Phelps. another fine group of "christians" imposing themselves upon others.......

Again I guess I must ask, did this happen?
I could have missed it in the articles.

?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Doesn't sound like it annoyed the neighbors much.

of course. it is quoted from the legal defense team.

quote The Pacific Justice Institute is a non-profit 501(c)(3) legal defense organization specializing in the defense of religious freedom, parental rights, and other civil l liberties.

if it was true - this would never had been an issue. but it is not.

quote Originally posted by balejumper: Getting a permit for more than 3 people at a time in your own home is stupid no matter how you look at it.

That is for sure. What is with the people of that city and their common council to vote something THAT ridiculous into law?


So granted, that part is idiotic.


If they wanted to shuttle people from an offsite location, so that the neighbors weren't bothered by parking, I wouldn't see what legitimate complaint they would have. Because the people aren't doing anything inside the house that would cause a disturbance to the neighbors.


Separate issue regarding the lawsuit.

The lawyers claims were not very good.

"The Bible study group, which met on Sunday mornings, until the City threatened further fines, was perfectly suited for his home, said Chuck Fromm.

Many neighbors have written letters of support, denying they were disturbed by the presence of the Bible study. The group is not affiliated with any particular church, nor is it seeking to establish a church in the home.

The City of San Juan Capistrano is insisting the home Bible study is not allowed because it is a “church,”


An informal gathering in a home ."


The Fromms should KNOW that what they are doing with the Bible study IS constituting a CHURCH. It is NOT an "informal gathering".

It is a WEEKLY, regular meeting to study the Bible. Well, that is how the FIRST churches functioned as well.

The CHURCH is NOT the building. It is the group of believers INSIDE the building.

Yes, they aren't declaring any denomination. Yes, the actual study might be in an 'informal' format instead of a traditional 'church' format.

But sorry. Scripturally a regular meeting of believers (and probably invited non-believers who are 'seeking') to study the Bible constitutes the activities of a small local church.

Whether the Fromms and the group decide to call it that or not.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Again I guess I must ask, did this happen? I could have missed it in the articles. ?

maybe an article from a non-religous source will answer that:
http://www.thecapistranodis...?instance=eye_on_sjc

tho, that article does mention "most" of the nieghbors are supportive of them.

True Frontal Lobe.
The Church is its members. So if this law is aiming at "the church" as the problem, no (3?) people who belong to a given church can ever gather together... or maybe if they don't say the word "God" they would be legal...I wonder if 3 people from different churches would be legal to talk about God together...

sheesh, this is strange eh?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: If a law is unjust you have to take it to court to get it noticed. I didn't see anywhere that anyone was picketing anything. If they were it would be peacable protest which would be legal too no? No they were going in the house and reading and talking. You think that should be illegal? Even just 3 of them is enough to be a crime, its rediculous. So anyway all the talk about blocking traffic on a culdesac, was it reported that that was occuring or is that still a guess as to anything that would come close to a ligitimate reason anyone even noticed the people gathered?

Eye roll. Face palm. The picketing was in reference to Patricks Dad's hypothetical Anti-Christian Queers protesting in front of the Fromm's home "because they are Christians".

Please just tell me one thing. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE STREET IN QUESTION? Sorry for the caps, but it seems that question keeps getting ignored. It took visits only to White Pages.com, Google Maps, and truliaom to figure out where they live, a Satellite view as well as a street view, and what size the average lot size, home square footage and estimated value. It takes a little work, but it is far from hard. (That's what she said.) Look at the yards and sizes of these homes.
http://www.trulia.com/prope.../Branding_Iron_Road/
Understand that the larger lots are on steep grades, so the majority of the land could only be accessed by goats. The driveways are all 2 car driveways with 2 car garages. The homes are large, but not mansions. Most of the value in these homes is due to the view and the exclusive nature of living in a community like San Juan Capistrano. So, looking at the evidence, can you see a scenario where twice weekly gatherings of 30+ people would NOT cause a complaint?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: sheesh, this is strange eh?

I DO think it is strange. I just don't know if it is "religious persecution". It seems there is plenty of neighborhood traffic reason.

It is just so strange to me for a city to require a gathering of more than 3 to get a permit. So you can't have your friends and their 2 kids over for dinner without a permit?? That is just ridiculous.

Most of the neighbors are supportive. Well, SOMEone on the block wasn't. And as long as it was for parking/traffic reasons and not because of a personal grudge against the Fromms, then I don't see the religious persecution angle.

But on the other hand, if they were willing to shuttle people in so there wasn't a neighborhood disturbance issue, then I think a group of that size in that house not bothering anyone, is their own business. (pending rescinding the stupid 3 people require a permit law).

beverly hills ninja was a good movie.....i kinda miss chris farley...who was also from wisconsin.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: beverly hills ninja was a good movie.....i kinda miss chris farley...who was also from wisconsin.

So was Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer.

[This message has been edited by WhiteDevil88 (edited 09-21-2011).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by frontal lobe:
And as long as it was for parking/traffic reasons and not because of a personal grudge against the Fromms, then I don't see the religious persecution angle.

The article doesn't state that there were parking problems, the Fromm's claim parking wasn't the issue at all.


Here is a cut and copy section of the article "The Fromms’ citations say they violated section 9-3.301 of the Capistrano Municipal Code, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit."

So if you want to have a fund raiser for the March of Dimes and have people walking around the block, you need a permit?, because they would have to assemble at some point That is just plain STUPID!! I disagree with government butting into our personal lives when it is not their responsibility to govern every aspect of our lives. I am guessing (just guessing now) someone was mad because they don't like them persoanlly, or didn't like the fact that they were assembling (peacefully). There was never a parking issue that I saw in the article that I read from the above posted link. I don't think this is necessarily an attack on Christians though. There are a lot of people talking about tolerance and how we MUST tolerate all religions, except it seems that the Christians get singled out most often and they are OK to bash whenever or about whatever anyone choses.

As far as this lawsuit goes, I think there are a lot of stupid lawsuits, there are way too many lawyers out there looking to make a name for themselves. The stupid commercials that advertise looking for people to join in class action suits for possible side effects from drugs they willingly took. All drugs have side effects, the doctors will tell you that. Now maybe there lawyer is looking to make a name for himself, I don't know, but it is still America and you can file a lawsuit for just about anything.

http://trouble.iotashan.com.../stupid-lawsuits.cfm

quote Originally posted by balejumper: So if you want to have a fund raiser for the March of Dimes and have people walking around the block, you need a permit?, because they would have to assemble at some point That is just plain STUPID!!

I'm pretty sure, actually positive, that if you research it you will find that when the March for Dimes does their walks they do get permits.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-21-2011).]

If, if, if, if, if, if, if ...

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: So was Ed Gein and Jeffrey Dahmer.

some of the best serial killers of all time. actually if you wanna get technical if i remember correctly gacy use to work at a highschool like 15 minutes away from my house, not the one i went to but still interesting. i gotta say im proud of the killers form wisconsin very twisted, hell if it wernt for gein we wouldnt have a basis for the texas chainsaw massacre. but you have to admit theres more than just serial killers in wisconsin....like our awesome anti-union government and.....police that get busted watching illegally downloaded movies on their laptops.....ya knwo what this state kinda sucks actually....im gonna move to south carolina or something.


edited to add...oh i forgot it could be worse it could be california where illegals out number citizens 10 to 1 and the liberals tears wash the sidewalk with all their crying about the envrioment and other crap.

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 09-21-2011).]

Well, I've read most of the other posts, not all but, I think I've got a feel for the basic premise of the thread.

I have a similar situation to this living across the street from my home. My neighbors are devoute Mormons. Twice a week they have a study group and I assume a prayer meeting. There are normally between 15 and twenty cars parked in their drive and on the street. At this point, I should tell you that in this small community, parking on the street is not allowed and infact the county has a code against it.

They are very nice folks, all of them but, the parking does take up road space and gets onto some of my neighbor's lawns to some degree. No one gripes or complains, the reason is my Mormon neighbors are the first to help anyone in the neighborhood and make a point to hustle everyone out at the end of the meeting. I don't have neighbors like the ones in the story. Then again, we don't have a law requiring a permit to hold a meeting like this at your home. If we did, then they damn sure better enforce it or abolish it.

------------------
Ron

Anyone who parks on my lawn gets towed as an abandoned vehicle. If the owner has a problem with that, I suggest they take it up with the city.

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: some of the best serial killers of all time.

You are joking, right? Ed Gein was a simpleton who liked to wear the skin from bodies desecrated by his grave robbing. He only was convicted of two people. Jeff D. had a decent body count, but if you want a good serial killer check out Edmund Kemper and Herb Mullin, two serial killers who made Santa Cruz the Murder Capital in 1972. They still never caught Zodiac, and there have been plenty of sickos to come along.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: ... Then again, we don't have a law requiring a permit to hold a meeting like this at your home. If we did, then they damn sure better enforce it or abolish it.

Abolish sounds good to me. 3 people?

Talking about this on the radio this morning, the newscaster said that "many" neighbors didn't even know there were meetings. If this is the case what is the ticket really for?

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Talking about this on the radio this morning, the newscaster said that "many" neighbors didn't even know there were meetings. If this is the case what is the ticket really for? Brad

So how many complaints should be required to enforce the law? If only one neighbor complained, that is 14% of the neighbors complaining. I suppose their rights are inferior to the rights of the Fromms. Not because they are Christians, but because they have lawyers and publicists.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: So how many complaints should be required to enforce the law? If only one neighbor complained, that is 14% of the neighbors complaining. I suppose their rights are inferior to the rights of the Fromms. Not because they are Christians, but because they have lawyers and publicists.

One. BUT what was the complaint? Cars? Noise?
My take is this 3 person gathering law is a crock and needs overturned. But yes as it stands they are illegal, and so are Sunday night football gatherings of more than 2 people.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: So how many complaints should be required to enforce the law? If only one neighbor complained, that is 14% of the neighbors complaining.

Just one.

I don't think that was the point. I think the point was based on the reactions of many neighbors not even knowing it was going on, it makes it seem like they weren't being a nuisance.

But, no, that doesn't mean that if one neighbor was much more aware and sensitive, that he doesn't have a right to protection based on the laws of his city.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: One. BUT what was the complaint? Cars? Noise? My take is this 3 person gathering law is a crock and needs overturned. But yes as it stands they are illegal, and so are Sunday night football gatherings of more than 2 people.

I agree that three people sounds like an arbitrarily low number. What number would be acceptable? What signifies a regular meeting? If I host my family for thanksgiving dinner every year, is that considered a regular meeting of over 3 people? It seems that the code is a bit vague on that, but I think 30 people every week is pushing the issue.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: So the Fromms allegedly bus in individuals from another location? I wonder why they just don't go ahead and study their Bibles at that location? Maybe there is another reason to be going to the Fromm residence, perhaps in order to violate laws in order to get the case into the courts. If your premise is true, I still challenge you to look at the street in Google Street View. This is a very narrow cul de sac with 8 houses, ranch style homes with minimal off street parking (two or three car driveways) and no on street parking. Four 12 passenger vans would still take up a lot of space.

I think that you mistook what I wrote. I mused, what if twenty three cars (supposedly) became four vans? Eliminating 19 vehicles was the cause for my query, would this still be a problem?

quote And what's up with picking on the gays? Is that the antithesis of being a Christian, being gay? I feel for those who have the misfortune of being born both. At any rate, I am sure that if a bunch of queers started demonstrating outside their home, San Juan Capistrano cops would go on a Tazer rampage. I would find it more likely that they might demonstrate outside their business or church then outside a home where only 8 families and their housekeepers and gardeners might see their picket. Plus, I agree that hypothetical group might have better counsel then to have people violate laws to make their point, and all fees would be payed and local codes obeyed. That is why gays might make better neighbors then Christians.

Maybe poorly chosen on my part, but it seems that, for what I see, hear and read (albeit in the People's Republik of Massachusetts), that is how the militant homosexual community sees it. Change "gays" to "Atheists." They seem to hate Christians and all that they stand for. j/k

And, if gays did demonstrate on this eight home cul-de-sac, not only would their benefactors secure the permits, but they'd make sure that their friends in the press knew about it, as well. It would be on ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, PBS, NPR, MSNBC and Huffpost.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: I agree that three people sounds like an arbitrarily low number. What number would be acceptable? What signifies a regular meeting? If I host my family for thanksgiving dinner every year, is that considered a regular meeting of over 3 people? It seems that the code is a bit vague on that, but I think 30 people every week is pushing the issue.

Number of people is irrelevant if they are not loud, they just need a law that is probably already on the books, maybe stating no blocking more than 2 street parking spots or something along those lines like no parking on front of yard that is not yours, etc.

I also question what signifies regular. I would guess weekly or more often. I can't fathom a reason for the law the way it stands. I look at this from the other side, not "the law is right" side, but the freedom of the people side, and see a law that needs major review.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Number of people is irrelevant if they are not loud, they just need a law that is probably already on the books, maybe stating no blocking more than 2 street parking spots or something along those lines like no parking on front of yard that is not yours, etc. I also question what signifies regular. I would guess weekly or more often. I can't fathom a reason for the law the way it stands. I look at this from the other side, not "the law is right" side, but the freedom of the people side, and see a law that needs major review.

I don't agree that the number of people is irrelevant. Maybe three is low, but just for safety sake, the number of people at these "Bible studies" is beyond what I consider a fair threshold. I would think 12 would be a more appropriate number, considering they all use off street parking.

If parking is the issue, it seems to me that ticketing the cars would have been a better move. I just feel that the City is allowing themselves to be manipulated for publicity and financial gain.

I find it odd that you are permitted to have a residential alcohol recovery facility for 6 or fewer people, a family care home for 14 or fewer children, manufactured homes on a foundation, a private park, or a residential care facility for 6 or fewer people, but cannot have more than 3 people over to read a book without obtaining a permit.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: You are joking, right? Ed Gein was a simpleton who liked to wear the skin from bodies desecrated by his grave robbing. He only was convicted of two people. Jeff D. had a decent body count, but if you want a good serial killer check out Edmund Kemper and Herb Mullin, two serial killers who made Santa Cruz the Murder Capital in 1972. They still never caught Zodiac, and there have been plenty of sickos to come along.

no im not kidding and Gein had a larger body count than that they just couldnt prove it and his house was burnt down shortly after he was caught so thats the main reason. as for Kemper and Mullin obviously they wernt that good because they dont seem to be very popular, did you just google serial killers of california or something lol?

Mullin and Kemper weren't famous? Obviously you are a young one. How about the Zodiac Killer? Night Stalker? Freeway Killer? Hillside Strangler?

No, I didn't Google California serial killers, but you might enjoy it. We have a great tradition of sickos. Here is a great website to study up on your serial killers, spree killers, and mass murderers. Maybe start researching there.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/index.html

Anyway, we could continue our off topic discussion in another thread or PM, I am sure not everybody wants to talk death and murder.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: Maybe three is low, but just for safety sake, the number of people at these "Bible studies" is beyond what I consider a fair threshold. I would think 12 would be a more appropriate number, considering they all use off street parking.

They do? Does it say that? How many cars?

I looked at the articles that were available online about the story and saw nothing that noted "parking" was any part of the issue. Maybe I missed something, but I still haven't seen anything that says parking was in any way an issue.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: I think that you mistook what I wrote. I mused, what if twenty three cars (supposedly) became four vans? Eliminating 19 vehicles was the cause for my query, would this still be a problem?

I understood. But I think that you may be ignoring what I wrote. If they were parking somewhere else (like a chuch parking lot) and stuffing themselves into a church van, why not just meet at the church?