In the past, Kaukauna's agreement with the teachers union required the school district to purchase health insurance coverage from something called WEA Trust -- a company created by the Wisconsin teachers union. "It was in the collective bargaining agreement that we could only negotiate with them," says Arnoldussen. "Well, you know what happens when you can only negotiate with one vendor." This year, WEA Trust told Kaukauna that it would face a significant increase in premiums.
Now, the collective bargaining agreement is gone, and the school district is free to shop around for coverage. And all of a sudden, WEA Trust has changed its position. "With these changes, the schools could go out for bids, and lo and behold, WEA Trust said, 'We can match the lowest bid,'" says Republican state Rep. Jim Steineke, who represents the area and supports the Walker changes. At least for the moment, Kaukauna is staying with WEA Trust, but saving substantial amounts of money.
And also...
quote
The Kaukauna School District, in the Fox River Valley of Wisconsin near Appleton, has about 4,200 students and about 400 employees. It has struggled in recent times and this year faced a deficit of $400,000. But after the law went into effect, at 12:01 a.m. Wednesday, school officials put in place new policies they estimate will turn that $400,000 deficit into a $1.5 million surplus. And it's all because of the very provisions that union leaders predicted would be disastrous.
This bill looks awesome so far...
What this tells you is that the unions have been in power for FAAAR too long, and that this isn't about Unions, it's about the corrupt management and ownership of the unions at the top which have been extorting massive amounts of money from the taxpayers... what they perceive as an endless well of money.
------------------ Todd
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01:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
yup - their demand for that particular coverage was extravagant but - that would not even be an issue if we had nat'l health care in the first place
as a working man - I will always side with the unions tho. Tho, I will say they have gone to far. I certainly do not want Americans to work for $5 a day, which is what is being asked of them RIGHT NOW.
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01:53 PM
J-Holland Member
Posts: 708 From: Norman, OK USA Registered: Nov 2010
And this surprises you because? When the GM plant in Oklahoma City would go on strike, employees there would be getting money from the union strike fund as well as unemployment from the state. They were pulling in more than I was, working full time.
[This message has been edited by J-Holland (edited 07-01-2011).]
yup - their demand for that particular coverage was extravagant but - that would not even be an issue if we had nat'l health care in the first place
as a working man - I will always side with the unions tho. Tho, I will say they have gone to far. I certainly do not want Americans to work for $5 a day, which is what is being asked of them RIGHT NOW.
What do you define as a working man? I am a computer programmer... but on the weekends, I go to the junkyard, pull engines, do yardwork, landscaping, trimming trees, fixing cars, changing oil, mixing concrete, whatever project to my house or cars or neighbors house and cars that need to be done, I do. Does that make me a working man? I work on a computer for a paycheck, and if I don't get that paycheck, then I'm kind of screwed. I think I'm still a working man.
The only benefit that I have is that unemployment in the IT industry is now just over 1% in the US (the only industry in the world that has almost no unemployment). But in 1999-2000 after the tech bubble burst, I didn't have a union, or a favorable market. Unemployment in the IT industry was like over 35%. So yeah... I was unemployed for like 3 months.
I don't have the luxury of a union, and I don't necessarily know that I'd want one. I like the idea of being able to advance through hard work... and I think unions would otherwise force me to be stagnant. If' I'm lucky, I would get promotions through the number of years I was there. But personally... I like being able to skip all that bull **** if I want to work really really hard, and get the same kind of bump / promotion in 2 years, that someone less energentic than me would otherwise get in 10 years of tenure.
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02:10 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: What do you define as a working man? I am a computer programmer... but on the weekends, I go to the junkyard, pull engines, do yardwork, landscaping, trimming trees, fixing cars, changing oil, mixing concrete, whatever project to my house or cars or neighbors house and cars that need to be done, I do. Does that make me a working man? I work on a computer for a paycheck, and if I don't get that paycheck, then I'm kind of screwed. I think I'm still a working man.
The only benefit that I have is that unemployment in the IT industry is now just over 1% in the US (the only industry in the world that has almost no unemployment). But in 1999-2000 after the tech bubble burst, I didn't have a union, or a favorable market. Unemployment in the IT industry was like over 35%. So yeah... I was unemployed for like 3 months.
I don't have the luxury of a union, and I don't necessarily know that I'd want one. I like the idea of being able to advance through hard work... and I think unions would otherwise force me to be stagnant. If' I'm lucky, I would get promotions through the number of years I was there. But personally... I like being able to skip all that bull **** if I want to work really really hard, and get the same kind of bump / promotion in 2 years, that someone less energentic than me would otherwise get in 10 years of tenure.
yes, I am in IT too. I work for someone else. and, while IT is doing GREAT right now, compared to others - that will not last. Silicon Valley is no longer in the USA. didja know that? yes, I am not in a union, never have been. but, I fully recognize the gains made for us working folk by unions. yes, I fully understand the "union break", the "not my job" and other bad aspects of unions. but, they are insignifant compared to abuses workers have faced. and not just in the past. there are workers RIGHT NOW being abused, underpaid, raped, maimed, etc, and we can buy their products at the store RIGHT NOW. you can buy a pair of pants that were made by a women who was raped at the factory they were made at. RIGHT NOW. if they could - they would. history shows that. current conditions shows that. dont for a second think you are immune. IT is being siphoned away just as well as manufacturing. programming can be done anywhere. and it will be. especially with the growth of "the cloud".
[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 07-01-2011).]
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02:28 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25192 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
yes, I am in IT too. I work for someone else. and, while IT is doing GREAT right now, compared to others - that will not last. Silicon Valley is no longer in the USA. didja know that? yes, I am not in a union, never have been. but, I fully recognize the gains made for us working folk by unions. yes, I fully understand the "union break", the "not my job" and other bad aspects of unions. but, they are insignifant compared to abuses workers have faced. and not just in the past. there are workers RIGHT NOW being abused, underpaid, raped, maimed, etc, and we can buy their products at the store RIGHT NOW. you can buy a pair of pants that were made by a women who was raped at the factory they were made at. RIGHT NOW. if they could - they would. history shows that. current conditions shows that. dont for a second think you are immune. IT is being siphoned away just as well as manufacturing. programming can be done anywhere. and it will be. especially with the growth of "the cloud".
Hahah... "the cloud" that's just a fancy marketing term (as you know...)
Although... that could be the name of a new horror movie.
You're not talking about in the US though... Unions served their purpose here a long time ago... here, and in Europe... it's everywhere else that the unions need to be, not the US.
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03:52 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hahah... "the cloud" that's just a fancy marketing term (as you know...)
Although... that could be the name of a new horror movie.
You're not talking about in the US though... Unions served their purpose here a long time ago... here, and in Europe... it's everywhere else that the unions need to be, not the US.
kinda. yes, there are now laws in place that cover ALOT of what unions fought for but, as seen here - there is already work underway to remove these "burdens" again - I completely agree that unions have gone to far
do you think $5 a day is an OK wage to pay a worker?
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04:06 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
do you think $5 a day is an OK wage to pay a worker?
Not in the United States, definitely.
I have been in some less developed countries, and $5/day would STILL not be good. It would be livable barely, but not good. So from experience, I would say no.
Regarding the Wisconsin anti-union bill, the Kaukauna school district is going to have the ability to not lay off any teachers and other employees now, and even hire some if they have a need.
Compare that to the Milwaukee Public School system which had locked in a contract with the union a year or so ago, and they have 2 to 2 1/2 years left on the contract. The union, as is their right, REFUSED to renegotiate it. Hey, that is their right. But with the reimbursement reduction from the state, they just announced ONE THOUSAND job cuts. ONE THOUSAND. But hey, the ones that are in the union have got it made, so who cares about the thousand, right?
When the GM plant in Oklahoma City would go on strike, employees there would be getting money from the union strike fund as well as unemployment from the state.
I have been in some less developed countries, and $5/day would STILL not be good. It would be livable barely, but not good. So from experience, I would say no.
Regarding the Wisconsin anti-union bill, the Kaukauna school district is going to have the ability to not lay off any teachers and other employees now, and even hire some if they have a need.
Compare that to the Milwaukee Public School system which had locked in a contract with the union a year or so ago, and they have 2 to 2 1/2 years left on the contract. The union, as is their right, REFUSED to renegotiate it. Hey, that is their right. But with the reimbursement reduction from the state, they just announced ONE THOUSAND job cuts. ONE THOUSAND. But hey, the ones that are in the union have got it made, so who cares about the thousand, right?
The facts are awfully inconvenient, aren't they?
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07:55 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
yup - their demand for that particular coverage was extravagant but - that would not even be an issue if we had nat'l health care in the first place
as a working man - I will always side with the unions tho. Tho, I will say they have gone to far. I certainly do not want Americans to work for $5 a day, which is what is being asked of them RIGHT NOW.
We have a union... which doesn't allow for competition, but a national health care would fix this? Nope.... We need a free market system... in both education and health care. Give employers a chance to put out bids for health care. Unions have become what they were fighting against...
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08:03 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 25192 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
kinda. yes, there are now laws in place that cover ALOT of what unions fought for but, as seen here - there is already work underway to remove these "burdens" again - I completely agree that unions have gone to far
do you think $5 a day is an OK wage to pay a worker?
Not in the US... but in other countries, if the value is higher vs their currency, then probably.
It would be illegal here in the US... unless someone is working under the table or working illegally.
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08:08 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
And this surprises you because? When the GM plant in Oklahoma City would go on strike, employees there would be getting money from the union strike fund as well as unemployment from the state. They were pulling in more than I was, working full time.
Really do you have any idea what strike pay is? No you obviously don’t, or you are making less than minimum wage, a lot less. And no when they are on strike they get nothing from unemployment. You are thinking of when they are laid off. When they are laid off they are getting money from unemployment and sub pay but NOT WHEN they are on strike. Steve retired GM line worker ------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-01-2011).]
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08:19 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Unions are not all bad, in many cases they are a good thing for the employees. An example of this would be a union in the private sector, in a large company with hundreds of employees or more, in a state that has no labor laws of it's own, and only Federal labor laws and OSHA to protect the workers. What is bad is that some of the public unions want to run the unions as a profit making machine (for the upper management of the unions) at the taxpayers and their member's expense. That is an abuse of power.
Unions are not all bad, in many cases they are a good thing for the employees. An example of this would be a union in the private sector, in a large company with hundreds of employees or more, in a state that has no labor laws of it's own, and only Federal labor laws and OSHA to protect the workers. What is bad is that some of the public unions want to run the unions as a profit making machine (for the upper management of the unions) at the taxpayers and their member's expense. That is an abuse of power.
It's also the common practice. Unions don't exist to protect workers..they exist to protect thier OWN existence, and generate income for the administrators. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
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10:52 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27104 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
It's also the common practice. Unions don't exist to protect workers..they exist to protect thier OWN existence, and generate income for the administrators. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
I was in a union for 6 years. I saw two guys get rehired after being caught STEALING. Yup, gotta love those unions.
kinda. yes, there are now laws in place that cover ALOT of what unions fought for but, as seen here - there is already work underway to remove these "burdens" again - I completely agree that unions have gone to far
do you think $5 a day is an OK wage to pay a worker?
Of course a "working man" thinks they deserve to be paid $40 an hours plus benefits and a full pension for screwing door handles on.
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Walker sent back Title 1 money from the federal government. About $4 million was already rejected, the money that goes to help underprivileged schools and communities. Just thought I would throw that in. The Unions might need a reform, but at this scale is absurd.
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12:48 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by Taijiguy: It's also the common practice. Unions don't exist to protect workers..they exist to protect thier OWN existence, and generate income for the administrators. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
Ayup so true, unions are no longer needed to protect workers.
WRONG
You may hate them, but they do help safety issues at work.
Steve, In the case of the teachers unions, I'm sure there are plenty of instances where those unions are protecting those teachers from dangers of work.
In the case of any public employee unions, I'm sure that those unions are needed to protect workers from dangers and hazards of the jobs. Yes, even those sewage treatment plant workers and snowplow operators and janitors. There are so many federal and state agencies in place to watch over these hazards and the public employees have no problems whistle blowing about the problems. These unions and workers are not working in a corporation where the goal is "making a profit at the expense of a worker". You might want to pick up your soap box and move it to a different thread.
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11:11 AM
carnut122 Member
Posts: 9122 From: Waleska, GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
Steve, In the case of the teachers unions, I'm sure there are plenty of instances where those unions are protecting those teachers from dangers of work.
In the case of any public employee unions, I'm sure that those unions are needed to protect workers from dangers and hazards of the jobs. Yes, even those sewage treatment plant workers and snowplow operators and janitors. There are so many federal and state agencies in place to watch over these hazards and the public employees have no problems whistle blowing about the problems. These unions and workers are not working in a corporation where the goal is "making a profit at the expense of a worker". You might want to pick up your soap box and move it to a different thread.
I'm a "unionized teacher" in GA. Which means that I pay a monthly fee to be represented if I ever need it-there is no collective bargaining and there has been no pay raise in the past three years and none this year.
In my county two different teachers were fired for music that students played(I wish I was making it up( I was unable to locate the related articles). These forced resignations were at the behest of the school board member listed as follows... "Last March, five school system employees sued school board member Tim Moxley, claiming he violated their privacy by taking home school system financial documents. The suit, in Cherokee County Superior Court, asked for $1 in general damages and $1 in punitive damages from Mr. Moxley......The district is about to be placed on probation by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. According to SACS, School Board members have not stuck to their job assignment of setting policy and have instead been interfering in daily management of the district. One board member threatened the accreditation team that came to investigate the situation."
This run-away school board member, combined with a new superintendent who promptly replaced his county office staff, and a governor who placed the blame for GA's poor academic performance solely upon "poor teachers" and who signed legislation making it possible to terminate teachers without cause, made me join GAE. Around the year 2000, it was clearly "open season"on teachers in my county (ironically shortly after that time I was the superintendent's grandson's teacher while being the GAE rep at my school( I did this for 5 years and not once did I have to intervene on behalf of a fellow employee- and no, I didn't ask for the position-I got it by default).
As for dangers at work, we do have a lot of mold issues in the "mobile units," but you'll be happy to know that teachers complaints are, to my knowledge, not addressed. These issues are only addressed when parent(and lawyers) get involved. So, there's a reason that I'm still a union member, and yes, it's worth every penny I pay. I've seen enough to know that if the rubber hits the road, I don't want to be flying solo.
As for whistle blowing, I'd better be willing to never work in my area of the state again if ever(as they can/will take my teaching certificate). Whistle blowing would be career suicide. Proof? Teachers have had to stay behind and "honor there contract" under threats of losing their certificates while their families have moved out of state because "no suitable replacement could be found."
[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 07-02-2011).]
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12:03 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Ace it was a blanket statement to the blanket statement by who I quoted, Taijiguy. Beside toxic mold and students who carry knives and guns. no teaching is not a dangerous profession, well maybe not as dangerous as yours or mine. But there can still be dangers. And anyone who thinks there aren’t is quite naive.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
I won't bother with a back and forth with you. All I'll say is that it's about tradeoffs. What small amount of possible good unions do, is far outweighed by the negative impact they have on business and the economy.
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03:22 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by Taijiguy: I won't bother with a back and forth with you. All I'll say is that it's about tradeoffs. What small amount of possible good unions do, is far outweighed by the negative impact they have on business and the economy.
In your opinion but not union members in most cases.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
You know OSHA exists for a reason. No offense, but this is a tired old excuse. I worked at Boeing building Apache Longbows here in Mesa. Were a right to work state. We had no "safety" issues, because if we did, all someone had to do was drop a line to OSHA and their over in a heartbeat. OSHA is the last group any employer wants poking around.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 07-02-2011).]
Only good unions I have seen are small unions, like police unions, that do only one major thing. When I say small, their state based, i.e. in AZ they have AZcops. They protect you from unjust firing, and they protect you from legal court fees. They only get paid by the members, and they do NOT get into wages, safety, or collective bargaining. They are there for one thing only, to protect an officer in civil or criminal court if their Department backs out. This happens often because departments don't like bad media coverage. I have seen where is was proven officers were innocent of any wrong doing, but their employer dropped them because of PR. Basically, its a insurance policy to protect your ass.
If these labor unions or teacher unions served in a limited capacity that only dealt with a small important factor, i.e. ethical firings. It would not be so bad. Instead, all these unions push ridiculous wages, pensions, retirement, and mass of benefits that are bankrupting companies and agencies. Its left over thug tactics of mafia oversight. Do your reading, you will find all the major Unions have a VERY rich organized crime history both with corrupt politicians and major MAFIA players. Its flat out extortion is what it is.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 07-02-2011).]
Only good unions I have seen are small unions, like police unions, that do only one major thing. When I say small, their state based, i.e. in AZ they have AZcops. They protect you from unjust firing, and they protect you from legal court fees. They only get paid by the members, and they do NOT get into wages, safety, or collective bargaining. They are there for one thing only, to protect an officer in civil or criminal court if their Department backs out. This happens often because departments don't like bad media coverage. I have seen where is was proven officers were innocent of any wrong doing, but their employer dropped them because of PR. Basically, its a insurance policy to protect your ass.
If these labor unions or teacher unions served in a limited capacity that only dealt with a small important factor, i.e. ethical firings. It would not be so bad. Instead, all these unions push ridiculous wages, pensions, retirement, and mass of benefits that are bankrupting companies and agencies. Its left over thug tactics of mafia oversight. Do your reading, you will find all the major Unions have a VERY rich organized crime history both with corrupt politicians and major MAFIA players. Its flat out extortion is what it is.
And a cop who is a member of the police union says that only the policeman’s union is any good. Ya OK sounds like you are prejudice in regards to your own union.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-02-2011).]
And a cop who is a member of the police union says that only the policeman’s union is any good. Ya OK sounds like you are prejudice in regards to your own union.
Steve
No, I said unions small LIKE local state police unions. Oh, and i was never and am not a member. let me help you out. They only get their money from donations and the monthly payments from members. They do not take tax payer money, or department money. They do not get involved with policy or department issues. Their only job is to provide legal representation if an officers needs it. This is due to the fact that most cost are not wealthy, and can not afford a good attorney if the need for one arises.
Is it a Union like your thinking? no, not in the traditional sense.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 07-02-2011).]
I love this guy, here is a typical east coast thug union leader. he heads the Mass transport Union and is laying a pathetic argument about why small business and taxi services are "bad" and should not be allowed to operate. Of course, it competes with public transportation!
Here is another revealing video about teacher unions. Oh.....by the way, my mom is a school teacher. She works for one of the best privately owned charter schools in the state. She is the top ranking teacher, if she doesn't perform well, she gets fired like any other bad teacher should.
[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 07-02-2011).]
When the GM plant in Oklahoma City would go on strike, employees there would be getting money from the union strike fund as well as unemployment from the state. They were pulling in more than I was, working full time.
Still waiting for proof to back up this statement. Would be nice, hate to start thinking of you as a bald-faced liar, and all that...
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06:44 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by JazzMan: Still waiting for proof to back up this statement. Would be nice, hate to start thinking of you as a bald-faced liar, and all that...
How about he is just stupid?
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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08:38 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
NickD3.4, I assume that you are a member of PSPRS. Police groups like the FOP and in AHPA and AZCOPS do their share of lobbying for their retirement system along with the fire fighter associations. PSPRS shares a fund manager with the Elected Officials Retirement System. These fraternal organizations function almost exactly like unions except in collective bargaining. I can't see why any member of a such fraternal organization would be against workers associations (unions) in other industries.
NickD3.4, I assume that you are a member of PSPRS. Police groups like the FOP and in AHPA and AZCOPS do their share of lobbying for their retirement system along with the fire fighter associations. PSPRS shares a fund manager with the Elected Officials Retirement System. These fraternal organizations function almost exactly like unions except in collective bargaining. I can't see why any member of a such fraternal organization would be against workers associations (unions) in other industries.
Nope, I am not a member. I am against any thuggery, especially unions. If a police union tries to push for terms that leaves a city broke I am against that as well. My experience here with AZ cops has not been the case though. I have never seen manipulate the departmental policy or salaries. One of the largest problems with Unions is collective bargaining. As you mentions though, these unions don't participate on collective bargaining. Look at WI, they removed collective bargaining. and things are already improving.
Also for the record, I hate lobbyist and the notion of having to lobby as well.
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10:54 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
That’s the way things work here in the U.S.A. Public safety workers benefit by being in associations that lobby for laws which benefit themselves. Every large group or company does the same thing. Many of our laws are written by lobbyists. Not saying it’s good but that’s reality.
That’s the way things work here in the U.S.A. Public safety workers benefit by being in associations that lobby for laws which benefit themselves. Every large group or company does the same thing. Many of our laws are written by lobbyists. Not saying it’s good but that’s reality.
Yeah, I understand that's the reality.I still don't like. That may be the way things have to get done for now, but I don't think we should settle for that. it's time for things to change.
