Selective memory or playing dumb, doesn't matter James. You're simply not worth the effort to me anymore.
Well, if you won't, or can't (more likely) state what the heck you're referring to, Ron, why don't you go off and play your mysterious word games by yourself. I could care less what effort you want to put into playing secret word games. I guess that's selective intelligence on your part.
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09:42 AM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9885 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
Did you read that wikipedia article before you posted it?
So prove your conclusion. What is the false assumption in the question? Describe how it is that no matter how the question is answered, it supports the false assumption.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
You're quoting the opinion of someone who was in the middle of a highly politicized drama centered around a person who was brain-dead, just a meat body being kept alive through artificial means. The context of that is in no way related to this subject. That person, the husband of the dead person (as you well know), isn't a doctor or scientist and as such can only offer opinion. But you knew that. Since feeling requires some sort of consciousness and since Schiavo's brain, what was left of it, was too damaged for any personality or "self" to exist, there could be no pain or discomfort associated with her meat body's death.
Originally posted by JazzMan: You're quoting the opinion of someone who was ...
Yeah, uh huh, just like you, posting your opinion while not even in the middle of a very complexed situation, . Not knowing any facts behind the decision process, nor who else it might affect. Are you on record that suicide must be allowed, even without a Dr Death ? You still have avoided responding to issues pertinent to the issues I brought to life, which you had never considered.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 06-06-2011).]
Yeah, uh huh, just like you, posting your opinion while not even in the middle of a very complexed situation, . Not knowing any facts behind the decision process, nor who else it might affect. Are you on record that suicide must be allowed, even without a Dr Death ? You still have avoided responding to issues pertinent to the issues I brought to life, which you had never considered.
Man, your writing is deteriorating rapidly these past few months. Near as I can tell from what you seem to be saying...belay that, I can't tell what you're saying or asking, mostly, but will say this: I have yet to post in this thread what my opinion is on assisted suicide. Nor have I posted it anywhere else, to my recollection, in the recent past. In the distant past I've been both for it or against it, or noncommittal about it, at different stages of my life and maturity. The politically correct position to have today on this conservative forum is to be against it, but I choose not to publicly state an opinion one way or the other because, quite frankly, it's "nunya".
Cliff, you're incoherent, it's getting worse, get some help.
I called you in because I never got a reply. I was hoping to hear back from you.
Oh! Let me answer your questions. 1. Abortion is legal in the USA. So regardless if you personally believe it is murder or not, it is not in the eyes of the court.
2. Suicide is not a crime either. Physician assisted suicide is considered legal in the States of Montana, Oregon and Washington. North Carolina, Utah and Wyoming have no laws that says anything about physician assisted suicide.
I believe in the rule by law, not by the rule of man or church.
Oh! Let me answer your questions. 1. Abortion is legal in the USA. So regardless if you personally believe it is murder or not, it is not in the eyes of the court.
2. Suicide is not a crime either. Physician assisted suicide is considered legal in the States of Montana, Oregon and Washington. North Carolina, Utah and Wyoming have no laws that says anything about physician assisted suicide.
I believe in the rule by law, not by the rule of man or church.
I win!
Nope. I wasn't arguing my case for either of those. I was, however, arguing that my motives were not religiously motivated. I would believe those things murder regardless of my religious beliefs, or how I was raised.
Abortion: The start of human life is at conception. I don't use scripture to back that up. It's my belief and always has been my understanding as such. Logic tells me that makes more sense than anything else.
PAS: Doctor kills or helps kill an innocent human being. That's murder. My view on PAS definitely has no religious influence at all to any stretch of the imagination, because I never actually considered religious motivation until it was brought up in this thread. It never crossed my mind...
Both of my views come down to murder, not religious reasoning. If you want to argue and say it's because I was "brought up" with these values because of Christianity, you'd be wrong again because I wasn't. I'm never afraid to say if religion plays a factor or is the reason for certain reasoning, but these topics aren't as such.
Therefore, you were wrong, as I said in the beginning.
Nope. I wasn't arguing my case for either of those. I was, however, arguing that my motives were not religiously motivated. I would believe those things murder regardless of my religious beliefs, or how I was raised.
Abortion: The start of human life is at conception. I don't use scripture to back that up. It's my belief and always has been my understanding as such. Logic tells me that makes more sense than anything else.
PAS: Doctor kills or helps kill an innocent human being. That's murder. My view on PAS definitely has no religious influence at all to any stretch of the imagination, because I never actually considered religious motivation until it was brought up in this thread. It never crossed my mind...
Both of my views come down to murder, not religious reasoning. If you want to argue and say it's because I was "brought up" with these values because of Christianity, you'd be wrong again because I wasn't. I'm never afraid to say if religion plays a factor or is the reason for certain reasoning, but these topics aren't as such.
Therefore, you were wrong, as I said in the beginning.
I win.
All of these statements are nothing more than just your opinion.
All of these statements are nothing more than just your opinion.
I win.
Yes! They are! I never said they weren't. However, they are opinions without religious influence. Wichita claimed the only time people were against PAC or abortion was because of religion. He was wrong.
Yes! They are! I never said they weren't. However, they are opinions without religious influence. Wichita claimed the only time people were against PAC or abortion was because of religion. He was wrong.
Your opinion that your opinions aren't based on religious opinions is still just an opinion.
Your opinion that your opinions aren't based on religious opinions is still just an opinion.
I win.
If you don't allow me to present thoughts about myself as fact, then that is true. However, I know myself better than you do. I know myself pretty dang well... and considering I haven't been a Christian my whole life, I think I know where I stand. Your assertion is a coward's game, because by your logic nobody would ever be able to disprove what Wichita claimed.. ever. His theory, therefore, is nothing but an opinion, even though he asserts it as fact.
I'm going to break this down though, so you understand which parts are opinion and which parts are fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Nope. I wasn't arguing my case for either of those.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I was, however, arguing that my motives were not religiously motivated.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I would believe those things murder regardless of my religious beliefs, or how I was raised.
Opinion.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Abortion: The start of human life is at conception.
Opinion.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I don't use scripture to back that up.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
It's my belief and always has been my understanding as such.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Logic tells me that makes more sense than anything else.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
PAS: Doctor kills or helps kill an innocent human being.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
That's murder.
Opinion.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
My view on PAS definitely has no religious influence at all to any stretch of the imagination, because I never actually considered religious motivation until it was brought up in this thread. It never crossed my mind...
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Both of my views come down to murder, not religious reasoning.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
If you want to argue and say it's because I was "brought up" with these values because of Christianity, you'd be wrong again because I wasn't.
Fact. I was a Christian before my parents were, and it wasn't as a kid. Maybe brought up with certain values, but not Christian.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I'm never afraid to say if religion plays a factor or is the reason for certain reasoning, but these topics aren't as such.
Fact.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Therefore, you were wrong, as I said in the beginning.
Opinion.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I win.
Opinion.
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11:03 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
lol - yes - we all know the rigid definitions that is why this is a topic of discussion because the defintions dont actually include or make qualifications for the additional variables of terminal patients. and - of course - being by definition we are ALL terminal patients - it would seem language is the problem?
lol - yes - we all know the rigid definitions that is why this is a topic of discussion because the defintions dont actually include or make qualifications for the additional variables of terminal patients. and - of course - being by definition we are ALL terminal patients - it would seem language is the problem?
Originally posted by theBDub: PAS: Doctor kills or helps kill an innocent human being.
quote
Originally posted by theBDub: Fact.
My replying to this does not imply acceptance or denial of any of the other comments posted by you, just so you're clear on that fact.
What do you mean by "innocent"? The statement presupposes that any death in the context of PAS is "killing", and completely denies the validity of suicide. That's the whole issue, in a nutshell, the validity of the concept of self-termination. Religious people consider it a sin because it's indoctrinated into them by the bible as well as by their religious leaders and peers. Since suicide is a sin, anyone who helps the "victim" must be a murderer, because only a "murderer" would facilitate the death of another "human being". Therefor, PAS is murder. That's not a fact. That's your opinion, an opinion based on religious values regardless of whether you understand that part of yourself or not.
And the word "innocent" doesn't have anything to do with anything outside of a military conflict or criminal context, because otherwise PAS would be perfectly fine IYO for a "guilty" human being (guilty of what, shoplifting? Not sending a card on Mother's Day?).
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11:37 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20699 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Yes! They are! I never said they weren't. However, they are opinions without religious influence. Wichita claimed the only time people were against PAC or abortion was because of religion. He was wrong.
I seriously doubt that not a single factor of your religious faith has anything to do with your opinion.
Other life is living within you all the time, actually you have more lifeforms within your body than your own. An embryo is life, but that life is supported by the mother and an embryo cannot live outside the womb and therefore cannot live on its own. Since the mother is the one holding the embryo and the mother does not want to carry an embryo to term, that mother should be able to make that decision and not only is it legal but in nature, animals often times experience self-induced miscarriages due to the stress of their current condition. So why not do it safely under medical conditions instead of rusty knives and clothes hangers or punching their stomach or just starving themselves to induce it.
Since you call that a murder in your opinion, and murder is considered a crime against society, you are advocating in your logic that a woman who happens to become pregnant should be force with a point of a gun by the government to carry a embryo to term. But then I'm sure you will say "if the mother's life is in danger" she can have an abortion, but that is still murder with your point of view. The mother should sacrifice herself because it's not the embryo's fault, right?
So birth control pills that manipulate or induce ovulation or even the day-after pill would be considered murder. And when you ejaculate, thousands of potential kids just died in your tube sock.
If a family makes a decision to pull the plug of a person who is on life support, then the doctor who pull the plug just committed a murder and the family is accessory to that murder. If someone committed suicide on their own, by either pills or self-inflicted gun shot wound to the head, then the drug maker and gun manufacture are now responsible for a murder, in your opinion.
It's cool that you have Christian values and place a high value on human life, but your logic on what society should consider a murder is unreasonable. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just unreasonable.
I place high value on individual choice. If it is legal it is legal, if it is not, then the person should be punished for violating the law. I might disagree with what should be legal or illegal but what you may consider to be "murder" I believe that there is justifiable homicide then. So does society. Abortion, suicide or even if somebody breaks into your home and threatens you, I have no qualms in arranging that person to leave my house toes first. Capital punishment and acts of war is all cool in my book, although all of these examples are acts of homicide, it would be considered murder in your view.
I find it quite surprising that your Christian ideology has nothing to do with calling an abortion a murder. But if you say so then so be it.
[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 06-08-2011).]
Originally posted by Wichita: Since the mother is the one holding the embryo and the mother does not want to carry an embryo to term, that mother should be able to make that decision...
That's an opinion of yours, though I think a quite grotesque one at that. Where does that child get a decision on whether it wants to live or not?
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
Since you call that a murder in your opinion, and murder is considered a crime against society, you are advocating in your logic that a woman who happens to become pregnant should be force with a point of a gun by the government to carry a embryo to term. But then I'm sure you will say "if the mother's life is in danger" she can have an abortion, but that is still murder with your point of view. The mother should sacrifice herself because it's not the embryo's fault, right?
Nobody is holding a gun to her head.. but yes; she should carry the baby to term. If the mother's life is in danger, she should still carry it to term, correct.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
So birth control pills that manipulate or induce ovulation or even the day-after pill would be considered murder. And when you ejaculate, thousands of potential kids just died in your tube sock.
No? I don't know where you made this leap, but birth control pills and the day-after-pill both prevent the sperm from reaching the egg. The egg is not seeded therefore not a human. Ejaculation into a condom or wherever also is not a human.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
If a family makes a decision to pull the plug of a person who is on life support, then the doctor who pull the plug just committed a murder and the family is accessory to that murder. If someone committed suicide on their own, by either pills or self-inflicted gun shot wound to the head, then the drug maker and gun manufacture are now responsible for a murder, in your opinion.
Drug makers and gun manufacturers are not responsible for murder. However, if someone came up to a man and said "I'd like to commit suicide, may I have some pills and/or a gun", then that man would be responsible for murder. To be honest, I don't know where I stand on life support. We can talk about that another time if you'd like. I haven't thought much on it.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
I place high value on individual choice. If it is legal it is legal, if it is not, then the person should be punished for violating the law. I might disagree with what should be legal or illegal but what you may consider to be "murder" I believe that there is justifiable homicide then. So does society. Abortion, suicide or even if somebody breaks into your home and threatens you, I have no qualms in arranging that person to leave my house toes first. Capital punishment and acts of war is all cool in my book, although all of these examples are acts of homicide, it would be considered murder in your view.
I find it quite surprising that your Christian ideology has nothing to do with calling an abortion a murder. But if you say so then so be it.
I place high value on the legal system as well, and will never tell someone they should be tried as a murderer for having an abortion or anything. However, I do have my own feelings on the subject and will voice them when questioned. I just think your idea that anyone against either of these things thinks so because of religion is quite short-sited and even bordering on ignorant. Thank you for recognizing, though, that I know my reasoning isn't because of religion, so there isn't much else to say.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
My replying to this does not imply acceptance or denial of any of the other comments posted by you, just so you're clear on that fact.
What do you mean by "innocent"? The statement presupposes that any death in the context of PAS is "killing", and completely denies the validity of suicide. That's the whole issue, in a nutshell, the validity of the concept of self-termination. Religious people consider it a sin because it's indoctrinated into them by the bible as well as by their religious leaders and peers. Since suicide is a sin, anyone who helps the "victim" must be a murderer, because only a "murderer" would facilitate the death of another "human being". Therefor, PAS is murder. That's not a fact. That's your opinion, an opinion based on religious values regardless of whether you understand that part of yourself or not.
And the word "innocent" doesn't have anything to do with anything outside of a military conflict or criminal context, because otherwise PAS would be perfectly fine IYO for a "guilty" human being (guilty of what, shoplifting? Not sending a card on Mother's Day?).
In my understanding, it does deny the validity of suicide. The issue does not revolve around suicide for me--I don't even think about suicide and sin, because I've never committed suicide. I like how you tell me what the issue is, though, and how religious people think.
I'm curious why people care so much what others do with their own lives? There's all this talk about things being "legal" or "illegal". (Suicide is only illegal if you do a crappy job) What gives anyone the authority to determine that whatever I choose to do with my body or person (as long as I'm not hurting anyone else) should be regulated in any manner....by who's authority is something determined to be LEGAL, when it doesn't even concern them? It should be a non-issue. Not to be decided by anyone except the one who is directly affected.
What business is it of anyone else's what I (or anyone else) chooses to do behind closed doors? If I've reached a point in my life where I don't want to live any longer *for whatever reason* who is anyone else to dictate to me that I must? Why? What's the purpose or gain? This genuinely baffles me.
I'm curious why people care so much what others do with their own lives? There's all this talk about things being "legal" or "illegal". (Suicide is only illegal if you do a crappy job) What gives anyone the authority to determine that whatever I choose to do with my body or person (as long as I'm not hurting anyone else) should be regulated in any manner....by who's authority is something determined to be LEGAL, when it doesn't even concern them? It should be a non-issue. Not to be decided by anyone except the one who is directly affected.
What business is it of anyone else's what I (or anyone else) chooses to do behind closed doors? If I've reached a point in my life where I don't want to live any longer *for whatever reason* who is anyone else to dictate to me that I must? Why? What's the purpose or gain? This genuinely baffles me.
My theory is pretty basic: the prohibition against suicide is there to keep the population maxed out for army raising purposes, at least back when the prohibitions were enacted. Military life back then was fairly squalid and nasty, really brutish. Wouldn't do to have your soldiers deciding that checking out for greener pastures was better. Since most wars in the past were fought by various churches it stands to reason the prohibition would be incorporated into the various documents.
. Not knowing any facts behind the decision process, nor who else it might affect.
