quote Originally posted by Wichita: Again! The only reason why people are against it is because of religious reasons "ONLY", end of story. We have no problem as a society to do the humane thing and euthanize pets and animals, but religious people are against it for suffering humans because they think their souls will go to hell or purgatory. It's so silly. The reason why suffering people evoked the help of a physician to assist in a suicide is to make sure it is done as humanly, painlessly and correctly as possible. Sure, somebody can pop a pill and overdose or blow themselves in the head with a bullet. But people who want to go would want to make sure it was done right. You can take a change by overdosing only to find out that you might still be living but even in a worse comatose or vegetation state. The Hippocratic Oath doesn't specifically say that a doctor must keep people alive as long as possible. It is an oath to practice the art of medicine ethically and to respect the privacy of the patients.

Hah... for a second, I thought I had clicked on the circumcision post... too early in the morning.

I would think you're probably right, for the most part... but my personal opinion is not specifically religiously motivated.

Many of the people that Kevorkian helped kill, were people who were not necessarily terminally ill, but just very unhappy with their situation (crippled, etc...). People like this (as I stated before) go through a period of depression where they are adjusting to the fact that they won't ever be able to do some of the same things they've done before... at least not in the same way. If you start letting these people kill themselves, or even assit them, you're setting up a presidence where it's considered "acceptable." Many of these people, after a couple of years, will eventually go back to being happy with their lives. For all the people who end up in these situations who are looking for hope, what kind of feeling will they get when they see that people in similar situations are instead opting to kill themselves, and that it's acceptable.

So in that respect, it's got nothing to do with religion, and that's really my primary objection to this. I think once you open the floodgates to assisted suicide, you really are creating a slippery slope. We joke, but who's to say that in 100 years from that point, we don't have suicide booths like in Futurama?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I think once you open the floodgates to assisted suicide, you really are creating a slippery slope.

I agree.

What does one refer to when referencing the so called "slippery slope"?

It is some fear that society will just kill each other off, eat each others brains and soylent green is the food staple of society?

Why do people fear slippery slopes?

Let's just say I see the other part of that slippery slope, where people leave the infirm and elderly to rot in wheelchairs for years. But that's ok, because at least it doesn't lead to a slippery slope.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: What does one refer to when referencing the so called "slippery slope"? It is some fear that society will just kill each other off, eat each others brains and soylent green is the food staple of society? Why do people fear slippery slopes? Let's just say I see the other part of that slippery slope, where people leave the infirm and elderly to rot in wheelchairs for years. But that's ok, because at least it doesn't lead to a slippery slope.

Life Insurence would have to change?
Murder would be easier to cover up?
Courts would be clogged with those the system deemed "not mature enough, sick enough, or stable enough to make the desision"?

Remember the Terry Shavio thing?
In short, Husband wanted her dead, parents did not.

And that is just the simple part of this whole thing.....

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Remember the Terry Shavio thing? In short, Husband wanted her dead, parents did not. And that is just the simple part of this whole thing.....

Precisely the reason everyone should have a living will and make all parties aware of it's contents.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by Wichita: What does one refer to when referencing the so called "slippery slope"? It is some fear that society will just kill each other off, eat each others brains and soylent green is the food staple of society? Why do people fear slippery slopes? Let's just say I see the other part of that slippery slope, where people leave the infirm and elderly to rot in wheelchairs for years. But that's ok, because at least it doesn't lead to a slippery slope.

The slippery slope argument is a VERY tangible thing... sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Case in point... you free black slaves, now we have a black president. Slippery slope... YES. For all of us here, we think it's an amazing accomplishment considering our sometimes barbaric past.

But other times, the slippery slope is NOT a good thing. Take for example, socialism... at what point in society do we say that enough "benefits" are enough? In the vast majority of states in the US, a poor person, or any person who already qualifies for other benefits, is now entitled to a cell phone and free minutes... courtesy of the taxpayer through a small tax that's included on your cell-phone bill. Do you really think "everyone" is entitled to a free cell phone? We now have health care for children, health care for the elderly, a paid for retirement "plan" for everyone in the US, and now, health care for all... certainly, I can't argue against the children's health care, or that for the indigent or elderly... but assuming that it didn't cost us anything... the more the better. But when does it stop?

Once you start making it acceptable for assisted suicide in any degree, you start altering over time what's considered acceptable. What we might have considered at one time as "pushing the envelope" might be considered normal for the next generation, and for the next generation, pushing THAT envelope would be completely unheard of. In 100 years... maybe assisted suicide is as normal as walking into a suicide booth... like I said.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The slippery slope argument is a VERY tangible thing... sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. Case in point... you free black slaves, now we have a black president. Slippery slope... YES. For all of us here, we think it's an amazing accomplishment considering our sometimes barbaric past. But other times, the slippery slope is NOT a good thing. Take for example, socialism... at what point in society do we say that enough "benefits" are enough? In the vast majority of states in the US, a poor person, or any person who already qualifies for other benefits, is now entitled to a cell phone and free minutes... courtesy of the taxpayer through a small tax that's included on your cell-phone bill. Do you really think "everyone" is entitled to a free cell phone? We now have health care for children, health care for the elderly, a paid for retirement "plan" for everyone in the US, and now, health care for all... certainly, I can't argue against the children's health care, or that for the indigent or elderly... but assuming that it didn't cost us anything... the more the better. But when does it stop? Once you start making it acceptable for assisted suicide in any degree, you start altering over time what's considered acceptable. What we might have considered at one time as "pushing the envelope" might be considered normal for the next generation, and for the next generation, pushing THAT envelope would be completely unheard of. In 100 years... maybe assisted suicide is as normal as walking into a suicide booth... like I said.

Ok! This is the argument that has to be made. For example: If you asked a woman to have sex with you and agreed on a cash price for that services, that is considered illegal in most jurisdictions, wrong and evil in the minds of the religious folks.

Now! Take the same woman, ask her out on the date and your intentions are to hopefully bone her at the end of the evening. So you wine and diner her, buy her a teddy bear and flowers and then ask her to come home with you tonight. And if she agrees and you both have sex, this is perfectly legal, although wrong but not evil in the minds of most religious folks.

Slippery Slope Case # 1: Religious folks, especially Christians, said that legalizing abortion would be a slippery slope that would lead to society going towards eugenics. The affects of abortion since Roe vs Wade has not lead the practice of eugenics, but has had a positive effect on society. It was what was responsible for more than 1/2 of the drop of crime in all categories across the USA when we started experience rapid crime drops starting in the mid-90's. The government hasn't initiated any eugenics policy nor force women to have abortions and abortion rates have drop due to education and access to birth control methods.

Slippery Slope Case # 2: Religious folks, especially Christians, said that legalizing gay marriage would be a slippery slope that would lead to society going towards family breakdown, people marrying animals, polygamy and would end the sanctity of marriage. Since the Christians for the most part have been successful at stopping or slowing down gay marriage, it is legal in some jurisdiction and in fact gay people have been marrying each other for decades without the government recognition. But all studies would show that the number one cause of family breakdowns are caused by low social economic or troubled financial status. Since gay people have been frolicking for a long time and have been out of the closet for several decades now, divorce rates have actually plummeted and marriage rates have stay pretty constant. So the face that two guys swap spit doesn't correlate to family breakdown or people wanting to marry their moms or dogs.

Sure! There are unintended consequences to anything that we do or adopt as a society. Fear mongering by holding up the banner of "Slippery Slope", not so much. Dramatic and negative consequences are usually the result by responding to some kind of fear, founded, unfounded or fabricated.

In other words, when it comes to the subject of physician assisted suicide, it is a choice that a single individual is making. When society as a whole stops that choice for that individual based on either "will lead to slippery slope of societal ills" or and often times included, "religious reason". I personally find that disturbing more so that what ever you can dream up as the results of some 'slippery slope'.

Same reason why abortion is so highly controversial. Because it is a choice that a single individual is making vs the wishes of a religious society that thinks it is wrong for both religious reasons and the results of some kind of draconian slippery slope, that has yet to materialize since abortion has become legal, other than the fact that abortion doctors have a much greater chances of being shot by a religious fanatic than other doctors in other medical fields.

To come right down to it. Religious people, and that means Christians use fear tactics quite a bit in order to perpetuate your religious and use it to force your doctrine on the rest of society. Yes, you may have good intentions, but using fear has shown to produce very bad results.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Ok! This is the argument that has to be made. For example: If you asked a woman to have sex with you and agreed on a cash price for that services, that is considered illegal in most jurisdictions, wrong and evil in the minds of the religious folks. Now! Take the same woman, ask her out on the date and your intentions are to hopefully bone her at the end of the evening. So you wine and diner her, buy her a teddy bear and flowers and then ask her to come home with you tonight. And if she agrees and you both have sex, this is perfectly legal, although wrong but not evil in the minds of most religious folks. Slippery Slope Case # 1: Religious folks, especially Christians, said that legalizing abortion would be a slippery slope that would lead to society going towards eugenics. The affects of abortion since Roe vs Wade has not lead the practice of eugenics, but has had a positive effect on society. It was what was responsible for more than 1/2 of the drop of crime in all categories across the USA when we started experience rapid crime drops starting in the mid-90's. The government hasn't initiated any eugenics policy nor force women to have abortions and abortion rates have drop due to education and access to birth control methods. Slippery Slope Case # 2: Religious folks, especially Christians, said that legalizing gay marriage would be a slippery slope that would lead to society going towards family breakdown, people marrying animals, polygamy and would end the sanctity of marriage. Since the Christians for the most part have been successful at stopping or slowing down gay marriage, it is legal in some jurisdiction and in fact gay people have been marrying each other for decades without the government recognition. But all studies would show that the number one cause of family breakdowns are caused by low social economic or troubled financial status. Since gay people have been frolicking for a long time and have been out of the closet for several decades now, divorce rates have actually plummeted and marriage rates have stay pretty constant. So the face that two guys swap spit doesn't correlate to family breakdown or people wanting to marry their moms or dogs. Sure! There are unintended consequences to anything that we do or adopt as a society. Fear mongering by holding up the banner of "Slippery Slope", not so much. Dramatic and negative consequences are usually the result by responding to some kind of fear, founded, unfounded or fabricated. In other words, when it comes to the subject of physician assisted suicide, it is a choice that a single individual is making. When society as a whole stops that choice for that individual based on either "will lead to slippery slope of societal ills" or and often times included, "religious reason". I personally find that disturbing more so that what ever you can dream up as the results of some 'slippery slope'. Same reason why abortion is so highly controversial. Because it is a choice that a single individual is making vs the wishes of a religious society that thinks it is wrong for both religious reasons and the results of some kind of draconian slippery slope, that has yet to materialize since abortion has become legal, other than the fact that abortion doctors have a much greater chances of being shot by a religious fanatic than other doctors in other medical fields. To come right down to it. Religious people, and that means Christians use fear tactics quite a bit in order to perpetuate your religious and use it to force your doctrine on the rest of society. Yes, you may have good intentions, but using fear has shown to produce very bad results.

Very well thought out & expressed.
Thank you.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Ok! This is the argument that has to be made. For example: If you asked a woman to have sex with you and agreed on a cash price for that services, that is considered illegal in most jurisdictions, wrong and evil in the minds of the religious folks. Now! Take the same woman, ask her out on the date and your intentions are to hopefully bone her at the end of the evening. So you wine and diner her, buy her a teddy bear and flowers and then ask her to come home with you tonight. And if she agrees and you both have sex, this is perfectly legal, although wrong but not evil in the minds of most religious folks. Slippery Slope Case # 1: Religious folks, especially Christians, said that legalizing abortion would be a slippery slope that would lead to society going towards eugenics. The affects of abortion since Roe vs Wade has not lead the practice of eugenics, but has had a positive effect on society. It was what was responsible for more than 1/2 of the drop of crime in all categories across the USA when we started experience rapid crime drops starting in the mid-90's. The government hasn't initiated any eugenics policy nor force women to have abortions and abortion rates have drop due to education and access to birth control methods. Slippery Slope Case # 2: Religious folks, especially Christians, said that legalizing gay marriage would be a slippery slope that would lead to society going towards family breakdown, people marrying animals, polygamy and would end the sanctity of marriage. Since the Christians for the most part have been successful at stopping or slowing down gay marriage, it is legal in some jurisdiction and in fact gay people have been marrying each other for decades without the government recognition. But all studies would show that the number one cause of family breakdowns are caused by low social economic or troubled financial status. Since gay people have been frolicking for a long time and have been out of the closet for several decades now, divorce rates have actually plummeted and marriage rates have stay pretty constant. So the face that two guys swap spit doesn't correlate to family breakdown or people wanting to marry their moms or dogs. Sure! There are unintended consequences to anything that we do or adopt as a society. Fear mongering by holding up the banner of "Slippery Slope", not so much. Dramatic and negative consequences are usually the result by responding to some kind of fear, founded, unfounded or fabricated. In other words, when it comes to the subject of physician assisted suicide, it is a choice that a single individual is making. When society as a whole stops that choice for that individual based on either "will lead to slippery slope of societal ills" or and often times included, "religious reason". I personally find that disturbing more so that what ever you can dream up as the results of some 'slippery slope'. Same reason why abortion is so highly controversial. Because it is a choice that a single individual is making vs the wishes of a religious society that thinks it is wrong for both religious reasons and the results of some kind of draconian slippery slope, that has yet to materialize since abortion has become legal, other than the fact that abortion doctors have a much greater chances of being shot by a religious fanatic than other doctors in other medical fields. To come right down to it. Religious people, and that means Christians use fear tactics quite a bit in order to perpetuate your religious and use it to force your doctrine on the rest of society. Yes, you may have good intentions, but using fear has shown to produce very bad results.

Uhh... ok, if that's the argument that has to be made, then what of the fact that I just made that argument? I'm not the first one to make this argument... if you think being against assisted suicide is simply ONLY a stance that the religious fundamentalists have, then either you don't understand how the main stream media works, or you're only looking for the answers you WANT to look for. I'm not the first person to make this argument, as a matter of fact, most of the people I know feel the same way that I do, and they're not very religious.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: In other words, when it comes to the subject of physician assisted suicide, it is a choice that a single individual is making. When society as a whole stops that choice for that individual based on either "will lead to slippery slope of societal ills" or and often times included, "religious reason".

You keep going on and on about religion, but that's never been my argument, nor is it for many of the people arguing against this. It appears this is your struggle, and really doesn't have anything to do with what I'm discussing... unless you're just randomly responding to my post and then going off on a tangent about religion? In any event, assisted suicide is not a choice that a "single" indiviudual is making... that's a choice that TWO people are making. Any person can allow themselves to die simply by not eating or drinking. But when you've got someone else that assists them in death, that's TWO people in the decision making process.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Any person can allow themselves to die simply by not eating or drinking.

You might be surprised how difficult that actually is.

quote Originally posted by newf: You might be surprised how difficult that actually is.

Especially if the doctors are sticking IVs in them. But... I used to write home hospice software for the hospice care-takers... as I understand it, that's actually a pretty commong part of dying. Once the person has accepted death, they usually begin a process of self-starvation. With the exception of putting a sponge to the lips to keep the person comfortable, the self-starvation ends up inducing a fever (the body can't regulate temperature anymore) and they end up dying.

Of course... if you really want to kill yourself, you usually want a quick out and don't want to have to go through a lot of hassle or a lot of work...

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Short or selective memory I guess. Oh well.

Can't resist a little insult, a little dig, can you ron? Since you know what you're talking about and I have no frakking idea what you're talking about, why don't you spell it out? Or is it just your little sekrit?

Let me rephrase, after thinking about it over night. I characterize Ron's comment most accurately as snide insinuation. Still, more a reflection upon his character than anything else.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Especially if the doctors are sticking IVs in them. But... I used to write home hospice software for the hospice care-takers... as I understand it, that's actually a pretty commong part of dying. Once the person has accepted death, they usually begin a process of self-starvation. With the exception of putting a sponge to the lips to keep the person comfortable, the self-starvation ends up inducing a fever (the body can't regulate temperature anymore) and they end up dying. Of course... if you really want to kill yourself, you usually want a quick out and don't want to have to go through a lot of hassle or a lot of work...

Yup also depends on if others don't want the person to give up, there comes a point where the person may "forget" that he/she has decided not to eat and drink and the primative brain seems to take over. All of it is sad for the most part IMO.

Not since toddster accused euterpe of uncle ****ing has someone defended their own indefensible douchebaggery to such an extent. Congratulations to Doug.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Not on Cliff Pennock's Filth Forum, you won't. There are no rules of civility or decorum here, as has been so pointedly made clear to me over the last few months, and years for that matter. That's just the way it is. Too bad...

Hey, don't be silly, there's no filth on here. Well no visual filth I should say, heaven forbid a nipple shows up but some people can ramble out semi-coherent racist hate speech or describe what many would consider lewd sexual acts and it's OK. Good thing the kiddies can't read.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You keep going on and on about religion, but that's never been my argument, nor is it for many of the people arguing against this. It appears this is your struggle, and really doesn't have anything to do with what I'm discussing... unless you're just randomly responding to my post and then going off on a tangent about religion? In any event, assisted suicide is not a choice that a "single" indiviudual is making... that's a choice that TWO people are making. Any person can allow themselves to die simply by not eating or drinking. But when you've got someone else that assists them in death, that's TWO people in the decision making process.

Do you consider yourself a religious man or should I ask, if you have a strong christian faith?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Do you consider yourself a religious man or should I ask, if you have a strong christian faith?

I don't know why you are throwing up the religion straw man. I have not seen anyone cite religious reasons for opposing euthanasia in this thread.

I heard when you are starving, your body eats all the fat first.
When the fat is gone, the body starts eating muscle.
Lots of importent stuff related to muscle.

Your body eating itself does not sound painless......

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I don't know why you are throwing up the religion straw man. I have not seen anyone cite religious reasons for opposing euthanasia in this thread.

Because it has everything to do with why people think a certain way. People might not overtly say it is because of religious reasons, because they want to come up with some sort of intellectual reason why without evoking a religious cogitation to the argument, because people will disregard the person's argument if it does have a religious overtones, and rightly so.

But people who are religious have been indoctrinated since they were a small child and their whole outlook on the world is viewed through the lens of their own religious upbringing. People are basically against abortion and assisted suicide because of religion. That's a fact! Very, very few people are against it for any other reasons.

The thing is, especially Christians, they somehow try to cloak their religious thoughts in most debates. Just come out and say it and mean it.

Why do I always have to beat it out of you like a Roman solider.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 06-05-2011).]

Wichita, whatever your problem is with religion, drop it. You are coming across as a complete imbecile.

My reasoning for what I believe on physician assisted suicide has NOTHING to do with Heaven or Hell.
My reasoning for abortion has NOTHING to do with my Faith.

You can point fingers and call me a liar, but you'd be wrong. Obviously you have some issues that you never addressed with some religious person in your past.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Wichita, whatever your problem is with religion, drop it. You are coming across as a complete imbecile. My reasoning for what I believe on physician assisted suicide has NOTHING to do with Heaven or Hell. My reasoning for abortion has NOTHING to do with my Faith. You can point fingers and call me a liar, but you'd be wrong. Obviously you have some issues that you never addressed with some religious person in your past.

Are you a man of Christian faith? And why people cannot answer that without getting pissed, is another story of the human saga.

So you believe that every person who has religious or specifically, Christian, beliefs is motivated solely by their religious beliefs. They are incapable of taking an opinion independent of their beliefs? Even their non-religious arguments, according to you, is really just a ruse for the underlying religious beliefs?

That kind of makes every argument pretty easy to win doesn't it? Just claim your opponent is a Christian and then you can dismiss everything they say wholesale.

What do you make of this post?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Because it has everything to do with why people think a certain way. People might not overtly say it is because of religious reasons, because they want to come up with some sort of intellectual reason why without evoking a religious cogitation to the argument, because people will disregard the person's argument if it does have a religious overtones, and rightly so. But people who are religious have been indoctrinated since they were a small child and their whole outlook on the world is viewed through the lens of their own religious upbringing. People are basically against abortion and assisted suicide because of religion. That's a fact! Very, very few people are against it for any other reasons. The thing is, especially Christians, they somehow try to cloak their religious thoughts in most debates. Just come out and say it and mean it. Why do I always have to beat it out of you like a Roman solider.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: So you believe that every person who has religious or specifically, Christian, beliefs is motivated solely by their religious beliefs. They are incapable of taking an opinion independent of their beliefs? Even their non-religious arguments, according to you, is really just a ruse for the underlying religious beliefs? That kind of makes every argument pretty easy to win doesn't it? Just claim your opponent is a Christian and then you can dismiss everything they say wholesale. What do you make of this post?

Yes! You are correct!

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Yes! You are correct!

Then that is very sad. It turns you into a secular inquisitor and IMO makes you less rational.

quote Originally posted by newf: Yup also depends on if others don't want the person to give up, there comes a point where the person may "forget" that he/she has decided not to eat and drink and the primative brain seems to take over. All of it is sad for the most part IMO.

I'll tell you what, it's a good idea to put "Do not resusitate" in your will / medical documents... and also... if you don't want to be kept alive artificially (through tubes and crap), good idea to put that in there too...

My grandmother put all that stuff in her will, so we put her in hopsice rather than hooked her up to tubes when she had congestive heart failure last year.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Do you consider yourself a religious man or should I ask, if you have a strong christian faith?

Dude, for real? You're on this again? Look, I like you, but my feelings of suicide have absolutely NOTHING to do with my faith in God. I give you my word as a man, and my right hand to God. My belief is that God let's everyone into heaven... so don't start going on your ridiculous tirade about how you hate religion, blah blah...

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 06-05-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Are you a man of Christian faith? And why people cannot answer that without getting pissed, is another story of the human saga.

Yes sir, I am
I love Jesus, and I wholeheartedly believe that He lived a perfect life then died for my sins, only to rise again and overcome death. He died so that I may live.

And even with this, my beliefs on both physician assisted suicide and abortion have literally nothing to do with that same Faith.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Or is it just your little sekrit?

Selective memory or playing dumb, doesn't matter James. You're simply not worth the effort to me anymore.

------------------
Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 06-05-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It was my honest opinion, my personal assessment of the man based on what I've learned over over the years.

As I said, nothing to back it up. What you learned over the years, or how you feel ? I posted information documenting questionable practices on behalf of Dr Death.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: What your point is isn't clear to me, but then again maybe you're just drunk-typing again.

Heh, ... you laud his character and I point out flaws. You can't figure out my point ? You won't address them so you accuse me of being drunk?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: There oughta a law...

There is. Against assisted suicide. Did I confuse you because I quoted you saying laws are what keeps our society socially fair.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: There are no rules of civility or decorum here, as has been so pointedly made clear to me over the last few months, and years for that matter. That's just the way it is. Too bad...

Untrue.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 06-05-2011).]

Look! People who are religious have their reasons and regardless that is their reason. Nothing wrong with it or to be ashamed.

It's one thing to have personal or religious reasons to not agree with assisted suicide or abortion. What ever your reasons is what ever your reasons, but most people who are against it is because of some religious reasons.

I'm not claiming that it is right or wrong, it's just if people give that as their explanation there is no need to further debate the issue, because you cannot change an indoctrinated religious orientated mind.

What irks me is that people who are religious, which we all know are hypocrites for the most part, tend to argue a point when you know it is clearly from religious views, but they say it is not.

Ok! So here is the question for all of you who are against Abortion and Assisted Suicide, it's one thing to be personally against it. There is nothing wrong with that. The question is; why do you feel the need that those individual decisions be withheld or made illegal for everybody else?


That is where we are drawing the sand!

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Look! People who are religious have their reasons and regardless that is their reason. Nothing wrong with it or to be ashamed. It's one thing to have personal or religious reasons to not agree with assisted suicide or abortion. What ever your reasons is what ever your reasons, but most people who are against it is because of some religious reasons. I'm not claiming that it is right or wrong, it's just if people give that as their explanation there is no need to further debate the issue, because you cannot change an indoctrinated religious orientated mind. What irks me is that people who are religious, which we all know are hypocrites for the most part, tend to argue a point when you know it is clearly from religious views, but they say it is not. Ok! So here is the question for all of you who are against Abortion and Assisted Suicide, it's one thing to be personally against it. There is nothing wrong with that. The question is; why do you feel the need that those individual decisions be withheld or made illegal for everybody else? That is where we are drawing the sand!

Do you believe murder is wrong? Would you like murder to be legal, or not?

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Do you believe murder is wrong? Would you like murder to be legal, or not?

outright murder umm no... old testament eye for an eye... YES... this is one area where i think muslums "have it right"....

=todd=

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Do you believe murder is wrong? Would you like murder to be legal, or not?

Murder is wrong because it is the act of an individual to take the life away from another under malice.

Although there is instances for which the government can murder you by ordering a government official to either murder you for your crimes you have been convicted of under the law (a.k.a Capital Punishment) or to kill another human being in the act of war.

If a physician is assisting in a suicide, to me that is not murder because the physician is helping an individual who made the choice to end their lives without malice, but with compassion. Same reasons why veterinarians put animals to sleep all the time.

So do you call what vets do to suffering animals an act of animal cruelty, for which is a punishable crime?

Yeah, so next time when your dog Bruiser starts suffering from a chronic condition, instead of asking the vet to humanly put it to sleep, ask the vet to put the dog on a feeding tube machine along with a breathing machine and let the dog sit there like a bag of meat, but alive, until it dies "naturally", which could be years in that medically assisted condition.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Look! People who are religious have their reasons and regardless that is their reason. Nothing wrong with it or to be ashamed. It's one thing to have personal or religious reasons to not agree with assisted suicide or abortion. What ever your reasons is what ever your reasons, but most people who are against it is because of some religious reasons. I'm not claiming that it is right or wrong, it's just if people give that as their explanation there is no need to further debate the issue, because you cannot change an indoctrinated religious orientated mind. What irks me is that people who are religious, which we all know are hypocrites for the most part, tend to argue a point when you know it is clearly from religious views, but they say it is not. Ok! So here is the question for all of you who are against Abortion and Assisted Suicide, it's one thing to be personally against it. There is nothing wrong with that. The question is; why do you feel the need that those individual decisions be withheld or made illegal for everybody else? That is where we are drawing the sand!

In one e-mail, you've managed to insult 90% of the world's population. You think 90% of the world are hypocrits? Do you think that every single thing that I do is in the name of Jesus? I have profound faith... but...

When I have sex, the last person I'm thinking about is Jesus. When I shoot NAZIs on my computer, the last person I'm thinking about is Jesus. When I bite into a huge cheeseburger, the last person I think about is Jesus.

...but, on the other hand, it appears to me that ALL you think about is atheism... it seems to be the cornerstone of every argument you ever make, anywhere. That's kind of wierd. I've got nothing at all against your religious views, but is that all you think about? I've always learned that if a person "perserverates" on certain things, repeatedly, over and over and over... then it could be a sign that there's a larger problem. I'd appreciate it if you NOT preach to me your religious views. I keep my religious view points to myself and I don't inundate you with my religious views, I'd appreciate it if you would do the same.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Murder is wrong because it is the act of an individual to take the life away from another under malice.

The state would disagree with ya there.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: If a physician is assisting in a suicide, to me that is not murder...

Really? Why do you feel the need that that individual decision be carried with everyone else?

You believe murder is wrong, correct? You would like that to remain illegal... correct? Well Billy Joe here just moved in from Brazil, where in his tribe murdering was an honor. It showed you picked that family. Why do you feel the need that that individual decision be withheld or remain illegal for everybody else?

Abortion is murder. Assisted suicide is murder. These murderous acts are often talked about.. and apparently many believe murder should be legal.

That is my view. Murder. And it comes down to NOTHING *NOTHING* on God or Heaven or Hell or anything of the matter.

Like I said:

quote Originally posted by theBDub: You can point fingers and call me a liar, but you'd be wrong. Obviously you have some issues that you never addressed with some religious person in your past.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Is he correct or was he just lying?

You're quoting the opinion of someone who was in the middle of a highly politicized drama centered around a person who was brain-dead, just a meat body being kept alive through artificial means. The context of that is in no way related to this subject. That person, the husband of the dead person (as you well know), isn't a doctor or scientist and as such can only offer opinion. But you knew that. Since feeling requires some sort of consciousness and since Schiavo's brain, what was left of it, was too damaged for any personality or "self" to exist, there could be no pain or discomfort associated with her meat body's death.

As such, your question is a false question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question