I think some people dislike Obama for all kinds of reasons of which racism might be one for certain people but not all people who dislike or even hate Obama is racist.
Just as wrong as pretty much any other generalization of a group of people IMO.
Hell I don't agree with a lot of the "Conservatorium" members on here but I've seen very very little evidence of racism towards blacks from any of them, maybe none when I think about it.
And while I do consider it wrong to group everyone who dislikes/hates Obama as racist I would hope that the people that are getting upset by the notion of it (which they are right in getting upset over IMO) use it as an example of how others might feel when labelled unfairly as well.
I think some people dislike Obama for all kinds of reasons of which racism might be one for certain people but not all people who dislike or even hate Obama is racist.
Just as wrong as pretty much any other generalization of a group of people IMO.
Hell I don't agree with a lot of the "Conservatorium" members on here but I've seen very very little evidence of racism towards blacks from any of them, maybe none when I think about it.
And while I do consider it wrong to group everyone who dislikes/hates Obama as racist I would hope that the people that are getting upset by the notion of it (which they are right in getting upset over IMO) use it as an example of how others might feel when labelled unfairly as well.
Thank you, honestly a great post.
Brad
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02:46 AM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
I think some people dislike Obama for all kinds of reasons of which racism might be one for certain people but not all people who dislike or even hate Obama is racist.
Just as wrong as pretty much any other generalization of a group of people IMO.
Hell I don't agree with a lot of the "Conservatorium" members on here but I've seen very very little evidence of racism towards blacks from any of them, maybe none when I think about it.
And while I do consider it wrong to group everyone who dislikes/hates Obama as racist I would hope that the people that are getting upset by the notion of it (which they are right in getting upset over IMO) use it as an example of how others might feel when labelled unfairly as well.
Yes. Hate him for his politics. Hate him because he sneaks a cigarette now and then (West Wing). Hate him because he doesn't attend the church of your choice. But the 'birther' issue NEVER came up until we elected a black man to be President. Clinton was raised by a single mother and attended school in a foreign country; nobody questioned his birth. Now that we have the 44th president in office, birthplace suddenly becomes an all important issue? Why now? Give me a break.
------------------ Drive safely!
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-29-2011).]
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08:18 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 35944 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
I could care less what color he is. My second best friend and co worker in our little part time photography thing is black as coal and either of us would do anything for the other. Im against what he does and the lies he spews....especially when it directly is affecting me.
I think some people dislike Obama for all kinds of reasons of which racism might be one for certain people but not all people who dislike or even hate Obama is racist.
So, why do people dislike *this* man? Is it his skin color? Political party? Policies?
Yes. Hate him for his politics. Hate him because he sneaks a cigarette now and then (West Wing). Hate him because he doesn't attend the church of your choice. But the 'birther' issue NEVER came up until we elected a black man to be President. Clinton was raised by a single mother and attended school in a foreign country; nobody questioned his birth. Now that we have the 44th president in office, birthplace suddenly becomes an all important issue? Why now? Give me a break.
Give me a break, Clinton's father was not a foreign national, He went to oxford in his teens. Plenty was made of his trip to the USSR also. Remember that whole thing? Hillary brought the issue up not the evil racist republicans. Or is she racist too? what about our "First black president Bill? he lost a bit of his luster in South Carolina didn't he? Is it the same old story, the one who is racist, sees everyone else as racist? Isn't enough to just say that the birthers are wackos and not have to call them racist? Is racist worse than insane? lol
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10:16 AM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35467 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
President Obama authorized the state of Hawaii to release a copy of his long-form birth certificate, resulting in massive media attention and a front-page splash by New York Times reporter Michael Shear on Thursday, “Citing ‘Silliness,’ Obama Shows Birth Certificate.”
But a Times media reporter wrongly suggested the “Birther” theories only erupted after Obama became president, among conservatives, when in fact they first circulated during the Democratic primaries, stirred up by supporters of Obama rival Hillary Clinton.
Shear wrote:
President Obama released his long-form birth certificate on Wednesday, a step that injected him directly into the simmering “birther” controversy in the hope of finally ending it, or even turning it to his advantage.
The gamble produced dramatic television as Mr. Obama strode into the White House briefing room to address, head on, a subject that had been deemed irrelevant by everyone in his orbit for years even as it stoked conservative efforts to undermine his legitimacy as president.
Mr. Obama’s comments risked elevating the discredited questions about where he was born, but also allowed him to cast his political opponents as focused on the trivial at a time when the nation is facing more important issues. Would those “more important issues” include fund-raising on Wall Street and taping an appearance on “Oprah Winfrey,” as he also did on Wednesday? Neither has Obama been a profile of leadership with his vague and partisan budget “plan,” a political response to Republican Rep. Paul Ryan’s more substantive proposal.
Shear got the conspiracy theory’s time-line right, correctly fixing the controversy as starting during Obama’s presidential campaign.
False accusations about Mr. Obama’s being born abroad -- and the implication that his election was thus invalid -- have percolated on the Internet and among conspiracy theorists since the early days of his presidential campaign, when aides distributed a shorter version of the birth certificate that is normally given out by officials in Hawaii. It’s ironic that the liberal media’s obsessive reporting of “Birther” rumor-mongering may have lent credibility to the idea Obama was born overseas. On Wednesday, Times media reporter Brian Stelter brushed against the issue without conceding any ideological component, noting a report that found that “of the three main cable news channels, MSNBC hosts spent substantially more time talking about the citizenship issue than those on CNN or Fox News.”
But Stelter himself failed to get his “birther” time-line straight, falsely implying the theories erupted after Obama became president and were spread by “right-wing radio and television hosts,” when in fact they first circulated during the Democratic primaries, stirred up in April 2008 by supporters of Hillary Clinton.
The facts about Barack Obama’s birth never wavered. But the more the fraudulent theories were debated and dispelled in major news media outlets, the more people seemed to believe them.
The conspiracy theories were promulgated on the Internet and by fringe publishers in the early days of the Obama presidency, and they were encouraged by right-wing radio and television hosts and, more recently, by Donald J. Trump, who is toying with a Republican run for president.
....
But murmurs on Internet forums led to whispers on talk radio. Some hosts shrugged it off, but others, like Rush Limbaugh and Lou Dobbs, questioned why the long-form birth certificate had not been released. Stelter’s conspiracy time-line, highlighted above, appears out of whack with his own reporting. In a July 25, 2009 story Stelter claimed: “The conspiracy theorists who have claimed for more than a year that President Obama is not a United States citizen have found receptive ears among some mainstream media figures in recent weeks.”
Stelter's “for more than a year” time-frame would date the rumors before July 2008, before Obama’s election and during the fiercely contested Democratic primary. Indeed, the rumor that Obama was not a U.S. citizen was initially spread in April 2008 by a group of Hillary Clinton supporters, as reported April 22 by Politico’s Ben Smith and Byron Tau:
If you haven’t been trolling the fever swamps of online conspiracy sites or opening those emails from Uncle Larry, you may well wonder: Where did this idea come from? Who started it? And is there a grain of truth there?
The answer lies in Democratic, not Republican politics, and in the bitter, exhausting spring of 2008. ....
Then, as Obama marched toward the presidency, a new suggestion emerged: That he was not eligible to serve.
That theory first emerged in the spring of 2008, as Clinton supporters circulated an anonymous email questioning Obama’s citizenship.
“Barack Obama’s mother was living in Kenya with his Arab-African father late in her pregnancy. She was not allowed to travel by plane then, so Barack Obama was born there and his mother then took him to Hawaii to register his birth,” asserted one chain email that surfaced on the urban legend site Snopes.com in April 2008.
Obama also isn't the first president to have his citizenship questioned. CBS and MSNBC Both Falsely Claim Obama First President to Have Citizenship Questioned http://www.newsbusters.org/...zenshi#ixzz1Krihy23U
quote
Both CBS Evening News anchor Katie Couric and MSNBC host Andrea Mitchell incorrectly asserted that President Obama is the only president in U.S. history who has had his citizenship doubted. In reality, both CBSNews.com and MSNBC.com posted a 2009 Associated Press article that detailed 21st President Chester A. Arthur having to deal with a similar controversy in the 1880 presidential campaign.
On Wednesday's CBS Evening News, outgoing anchor Katie Couric began the broadcast by declaring: "It was an extraordinary moment, President Obama went on national television today and did what no other president has ever even been asked to do, prove he's a natural born U.S. citizen." On Thursday's Andrea Mitchell Reports on MSNBC, host Andrea Mitchell similarly proclaimed: "I mean, people who want to raise these conspiracy theorists – theories – and there is no other explanation other than, you know, sort of pure racism, because it's never been raised about a white president."
As the August 2009 Associated Press article explained: "Long before 'birthers' began questioning the citizenship of President Barack Obama, similar questions were raised about the early years of Arthur, an accidental president who ascended to the job after President James Garfield was assassinated."
The article goes on to note specific calls for Arthur prove his American birth: "According to historical accounts, Republican bosses wanted him to provide proof of his birthplace, but he never did. Democrats, meanwhile, hired a lawyer named Arthur Hinman who sought to discredit Arthur, claiming he was born in Dunham, Quebec, about 47 miles north of Fairfield [Vermont]."
It is bad enough that Couric and Mitchell didn't properly fact check their statements, but for the information to be available on their own respective websites make the errors even more stunning.
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10:16 AM
PFF
System Bot
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
A few pages back there was quite a bit of discussion about how the pdf of the birth certificate had layers. I was interviewed this morning by both a TV and radio station in FL (I live in the Kansas City area) about this and I have a theory about the PDF mystery mentioned yesterday. Archived records from years ago are/were stored on microfiche, a black and white negative. By making a positive print the document would be readable as a normal printed page. However Sec. 508 of the Americans with Disabilities Act requires that scanned documents be accessible by screen readers or text to speech technology. By running OCR (object character recognition) on the document you would get layers (although not needed) and the converted text could be picked up or recognized by a screen reader for visually impaired visitors of the site. As mentioned earlier, the most odd thing is that the document is not locked or secured in any way. More importantly, the background has been changed (a security measure perhaps?) and not all of the text on the microfiche version is present on the PDF version.
\/\/
Adobe CTI for Print Applications
[This message has been edited by infinitewill (edited 04-29-2011).]
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10:30 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27079 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Say what you want, really dont care. I have 2 REALLY close friends, just like brothers ....and hes one of them. Some of my worse enemies are azzholes too.
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02:38 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Pretty Smart Bdub.. I think you hit it right on the head.
As an independent, I have to say that the "birthers" are making it real hard to take the RIght seriously with all of their paranoid behavior and shadowboxing. I imagine my feelings run right along with lots of other people who are self-identified independents/centrists. If any opposing candidate tries to make that part of their presidential bid, they are signing the death warrant for their presidential campaign. We're sick of it and have been for a long time. Present real facts on REAL issues, and I could be swayed. So could others. As far as I am concerned, anyone candidate who continues to posture that Obama still was not born here is just hurting the chance to beat Obama in 2012, not helping,
Let's not forget that the vast majority of the people who make up the "birther" movement, were the exact same people that we used to call "truthers" who under the Bush Administration, said that Bush was responsible for fabricating an attack so he would have an excuse to go to war.
The conspiracy movement goes against whoever is in power at that time, and then somehow links them together administration after administration.
quote
Originally posted by newf:
I think some people dislike Obama for all kinds of reasons of which racism might be one for certain people but not all people who dislike or even hate Obama is racist.
Just as wrong as pretty much any other generalization of a group of people IMO.
Hell I don't agree with a lot of the "Conservatorium" members on here but I've seen very very little evidence of racism towards blacks from any of them, maybe none when I think about it.
And while I do consider it wrong to group everyone who dislikes/hates Obama as racist I would hope that the people that are getting upset by the notion of it (which they are right in getting upset over IMO) use it as an example of how others might feel when labelled unfairly as well.
I hear this a lot, but I only know 1 person out of all my friends / acquaintences who actually don't like him because he's black. The vast majority of people who I know that dislike him, do so because of his economic policies, specifically the idea of persisting sort of a "victim" mentality.
I only know 1 guy that didn't vote for him because he's black, and that guy was a hard-core Democrat from the outskirts of Florida. He LOVES Bill Clinton, hates George Bush with ever fiber of his being, and thinks there was a DNC conspiracy against Hilary. He thinks Obama is a terrorist, but I kind of get the idea that he's racist, although he's never stated it.
No one else I know who dislikes him, does so because they're racist. Unless maybe I just don't hang out with racists, which could explain it.
It's like when some of the Democrats in California got all upset when Bush won and they would say... "I don't know how he won, no one I know voted for him..." I suppose it's the company we keep.
I see comments now and then in YouTube, and some other places, but I'd like to think that's a fringe... I really don't believe that makes up any significant majority, but that the people who are like that, are always on a campaign to further their ill-views... so they take the initiative to go out and make negative posts and comments like that.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-29-2011).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Let's not forget that the vast majority of the people who make up the "birther" movement, were the exact same people that we used to call "truthers" who under the Bush Administration, said that Bush was responsible for fabricating an attack so he would have an excuse to go to war.
The conspiracy movement goes against whoever is in power at that time, and then somehow links them together administration after administration.
I would agree that some of these conspiracy movements go against whomever is in power at the time but I would question how you are coming to the conclusion that the majority of people that make up the "birther" movement are the exact same people as the "truthers". In fact I would be more likely to believe that each most of the people in these "movements" (what a good term for them ) are from the fringes of each political party.
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02:52 PM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 22775 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I would agree that some of these conspiracy movements go against whomever is in power at the time but I would question how you are coming to the conclusion that the majority of people that make up the "birther" movement are the exact same people as the "truthers". In fact I would be more likely to believe that each most of the people in these "movements" (what a good term for them ) are from the fringes of each political party.
I used to think that too... but I actually know quite a few of them.
Every time I've gone to a political rally, these guys show up. There are only a hand-ful of them, but it's the same people. Let me put it this way, I've talked with around 30-40 of these people. Every single one of them, is both a birther, AND a truther.
There's a documentary out there actually, where one of the guys recorded me where I was asking him if he had actually READ the 9/11 Comission report. (he said no). I told him that if he had read it, he would have realized that we were ill-equipped because we had all but dismantled NORAD. He cut and pasted parts out, and actually just repeated in his documentary where I said that Clinton (starting with Bush Sr.) had all but dismantled NORAD.
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02:57 PM
KidO Member
Posts: 1019 From: The Pacific Northwest Registered: Dec 2003
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I used to think that too... but I actually know quite a few of them.
Every time I've gone to a political rally, these guys show up. There are only a hand-ful of them, but it's the same people. Let me put it this way, I've talked with around 30-40 of these people. Every single one of them, is both a birther, AND a truther.
There's a documentary out there actually, where one of the guys recorded me where I was asking him if he had actually READ the 9/11 Comission report. (he said no). I told him that if he had read it, he would have realized that we were ill-equipped because we had all but dismantled NORAD. He cut and pasted parts out, and actually just repeated in his documentary where I said that Clinton (starting with Bush Sr.) had all but dismantled NORAD.
I thought the same as newf's response. But I also think you are right as well. There are going to be individuals that are against the establishment in any case. They are always looking for the conspiracy, and will probably never accept anything else. I work with a guy, who I would consider quite intelligent in his job, and quite knowledgeable all around, but he is afraid that everyone is out to get him. I would think that the 'Birther' group is largely made up with the far-right fringe, just as much as the 'Truther' group contained a good portion of indviduals from the far-left.
Say what you want, really dont care. I have 2 REALLY close friends, just like brothers ....and hes one of them. Some of my worse enemies are azzholes too.
Please be aware that I understand completely.
Some of my best friends are Black as well...though perhaps not quite "coal" colored.
The issue never should have been about where Obama was born, his mother was an American. The issue is with him attending school in Indonesia. One has to be a citizen of Indonesia to attend school there, and one can not have dual citizenship with Indonesia.
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09:03 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35467 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
I think I can field the above question. I have attented school out of the country. There are private schools one can attend where you don't have to be a citizen of the country you are in. Public schools are an entirely different matter.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-29-2011).]
Just so I get this straight. What would have to happen for you to not believe that every person who is not black is not a racist?
Just tell us.
Brad
You've been grossly misinformed, Brad.
If I thought everyone who was not Black was a racist, I would have to not only disown most of my business associates but also half of my family as well....including my wife, my sons, my son-in-law, my paternal grandmother, my one month old granddaughter and on and on.
No, I make such determinations on a case-by-case basis.
And, just so you get it even straighter, I didn't say anyone here was racist.
I just know an old chestnut of a cliche when I read one.
Besides, though your chivalry is quite admirable, I don't think any of my comments were directed at you.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-29-2011).]
Isn't throwing out the "The other side is playing the race card" when they are not, doing the exact same thing?
aaaahhhhh The Race Card "Card"
Like I said, I haven't seen much racism against black people during my time on PFF but that's not to say that racism against black people doesn't exist or that some dislike/hate Obama for that very reason either.
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10:08 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
The issue never should have been about where Obama was born, his mother was an American. The issue is with him attending school in Indonesia. One has to be a citizen of Indonesia to attend school there, and one can not have dual citizenship with Indonesia.
[sarcasm] OMG, you're RACIST! [/sarcasm]
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-29-2011).]
Originally posted by dennis_6: One has to be a citizen of Indonesia to attend school there, and one can not have dual citizenship with Indonesia.
Actually, that's not correct. Americans attend school in Indonesia on a regular basis while retaining their US citizenship. In fact, Indonesia actively markets their schools to American students for the purposes of cultural exchange.
Don't simply take my word for it, though. Contact any Indonesian embassy. There's one on Michigan Avenue in Chicago, I believe.
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10:26 PM
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
Actually, that's not correct. Americans attend school in Indonesia on a regular basis while retaining their US citizenship. In fact, Indonesia actively markets their schools to American students for the purposes of cultural exchange.
Don't simply take my word for it, though. Contact any Indonesian embassy. There's one on Michigan Avenue in Chicago, I believe.
I think you're thinking of the Filipino consulate on Michigan.
The issue never should have been about where Obama was born, his mother was an American. The issue is with him attending school in Indonesia. One has to be a citizen of Indonesia to attend school there, and one can not have dual citizenship with Indonesia.
Unless I'm reading you wrong, Dennis, the issue is only that Obama was supposed to have been born outside the US. The laws specifcally state that a President must be a citizen born in the USA in order to be qualified. Yes, his mother is an American, and that automatically makes him a citizen. But that alone does not meet the requirements set down.
The fact he attended school elsewhere is not, in itself, proof of anything. Lots of non-citizens attend school here. I haven't looked, but does the USA not allow dual citizenship with Indonesia?
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10:34 PM
Flamberge Member
Posts: 4268 From: Terra Sancta, TX Registered: Oct 2001
I haven't weighed in on this in awhile, so I'll throw this out there...
He's released his long form birth certificate. That puts the burden of proof on the shoulders of his opponents.
That said, he and everyone else crying foul that people are questioning his citizenship, the authenticity of the document he released, etc need to realize that by dodging the VERY SIMPLE issue for so long is what his opponents were clinging to. "Where there is smoke there is fire."
Now that the document has been released - OF COURSE people are going to pick it apart - especially when there is a question of its authenticity because of the sahdy way he avoided it for so long.
I believe that it is real and valid and the right needs to shift gears and criticize him for the countless things he has done and failed to do instead of wasting anymore time on this, but that's just me.
As for the black/racism thing, I think that's a weak argument. It is like me saying every single person I know who is black voted for Obama because HE is black and not because of his politics. It is true for some people I know, but not all - or even most.
Would a liberal vote for Colin Powell running as a republican or a white guy running as a democrat? IOW race isn't the deciding factor for either side.
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10:43 PM
Scottzilla79 Member
Posts: 2573 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Oct 2009
For dual citizenship- http://travel.state.gov/tra...tw/cis/cis_1753.html A US citizen can have dual citizenship if they acquire it automatically, by birth or marriage, But if you willfully apply for foreign citizenship you may lose your US citizenship. I doubt this is enforced.
For dual citizenship- http://travel.state.gov/tra...tw/cis/cis_1753.html A US citizen can have dual citizenship if they acquire it automatically, by birth or marriage, But if you willfully apply for foreign citizenship you may lose your US citizenship. I doubt this is enforced.
It's certainly enforced in France, Belgium and Switzerland. I know that for a fact. When I was living in Europe, I was constantly being pressured to apply for French citizenship for tax reasons and because one can only maintain a "work visa" status for so long before the authorities take notice. I would have to leave the country (in my case, France) every few months or so and reapply for another work visa from this end. It wasn't a problem getting it, I admit, but there was no way I was giving up my US citizenship.
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10:59 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
It is like me saying every single person I know who is black voted for Obama because HE is black.....
In my unique posistion (work) I have heard atlot of black people say that is EXACTLY why they voted for him. They said as a black person it was thier obligation to support at least what it ment to have a black man in that office, even if they could not support the man himself or his ideas. At worst, it would be a start in the right direction.
Maybe a young black kid could look at it and say, "Wow, I really CAN be anything I want to be!" And for the first time in U.S. history, it would be TRUE for him, and not just a saying, with it's hidden cavets. It might just keep more kids in school, knowing that you really CAN shoot for the stars, no matter what color you are. That in itself would be worth it, keeping more kids in school, that might have otherwise felt trapped with what & where they are and just give up.
I can understand the reasoning behind that. It was a chance for a people who had seen the worst history has to offer to actually change the way their story will be told in the future.
In that sense, it is a far better reason then some reasons I have heard for why some vote for who they do.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 04-29-2011).]
If I thought everyone who was not Black was a racist, I would have to not only disown most of my business associates but also half of my family as well....including my wife, my sons, my son-in-law, my paternal grandmother, my one month old granddaughter and on and on.
No, I make such determinations on a case-by-case basis.
And, just so you get it even straighter, I didn't say anyone here was racist.
I just know an old chestnut of a cliche when I read one.
Besides, though your chivalry is quite admirable, I don't think any of my comments were directed at you.
Soooo, your not racist because your best friend/spouse is (insert here.)
Is that what you are saying?
Being called a racist is a hard thing to defend. And once someone calls, or infers it, it causes immediate character damage. Any fight to defend themselves is met with sarcasm, and hate.
You don't have to outright say it, it's read into things you type, and it causes real damage later on.
.
) are from the fringes of each political party.
