As I continue to read the hatred spewed on the leaders of the left from the followers on the right (or the Tea Party), I have to ask myself "Are the leaders of the right Christian?"

A little research into the Socio-Political Celebrity Glenn Beck tells me that he is Mormon, or a follower of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Is that a Christian religion? A little more research reveals... Depends on who you ask?

Mormom replies with an entusiastic "YES".

Most other Christians reply with an unequivocal "NO".

Islamic Extremists reply with "Who cares, they are American, and they all need to go!"

Is Mormonism Christian? A comparison of Mormonism and Historic Christianity

I could have marked this a Religion, but Politics seemed more in line so that it could parallel the thread about President Obama's faith of choice.

I hope Mitt Romney chimes in with his views!

edited for clarity...

[This message has been edited by KidO (edited 09-14-2010).]

Mormons beleive the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior and the only way to Heaven is through him. Therefore at the core, Yes they are Christian. However they do not beleive in Original Sin and they do not beleive the Holy Trinity is one being. So they have some non traditional Christian beleifs, however there are many different sects of Christianity with varying beleifs, so it's not unreasonable for Mormons to claim to be Christians.

However, the Tea Party is neither Left nor Right, it's a conglomerate of people disassociated from their traditional parties if they perscibed to a specific party.

Plus, I'm a little confused by your initial question.

quote As I continue to read the hatred spewed on the leaders of the left from the followers on the right (or the Tea Party), I have to ask myself "Are the leaders of the left Christian?"

Are you asking because it's normal for Christians to have hatred spewed at them, therefore you think the leaders on the left may be Christians, hence the hostilities? Or was that suppossed to be "Are the leaders of the right Christian?", hence a jab at Christianity for preaching tolerance, yet being intolerant? If the latter, then I suggest you look to some of the Christian leaders on the left, like Reverend Jesse Jackson who is far from tolerant.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by KidO: I could have marked this a Religion, but Politics seemed more in line so that it could parallel the thread about President Obama's faith of choice.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Do not start threads about other threads. So you get in a heated discussion in one of the threads. You get the feeling you are not getting your point across. So you feel the need to start a new thread explaining what you meant in the first thread. Don't. Since there's already a thread on the subject, say it there.

Why all the hate spewing all of the sudden, from both sides? Do we have to be this immature all the time?

I was thinking we were all friends...

Brad

I thought that if you believe the Christ is the Son of God, and our savior, that makes you a Christian? Or are there other stipulations?

You also have to believe that he died so that our sins may be forgiven and he rose on the third day.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: Mormons beleive the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior and the only way to Heaven is through him. Therefore at the core, Yes they are Christian. However they do not beleive in Original Sin and they do not beleive the Holy Trinity is one being. So they have some non traditional Christian beleifs, however there are many different sects of Christianity with varying beleifs, so it's not unreasonable for Mormons to claim to be Christians. However, the Tea Party is neither Left nor Right, it's a conglomerate of people disassociated from their traditional parties if they perscibed to a specific party. Plus, I'm a little confused by your initial question. Are you asking because it's normal for Christians to have hatred spewed at them, therefore you think the leaders on the left may be Christians, hence the hostilities? Or was that suppossed to be "Are the leaders of the right Christian?", hence a jab at Christianity for preaching tolerance, yet being intolerant? If the latter, then I suggest you look to some of the Christian leaders on the left, like Reverend Jesse Jackson who is far from tolerant.

It is "Christians" who are spewing the Hatred. It comes from both sides, the left and the right. Mathew 7:12 tells us "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I do not see that many so called Christians acting that way when it comes to politics. As far as the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson goes, I find that man far from Christian.

[This message has been edited by KidO (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by KidO: As I continue to read the hatred spewed on the leaders of the left from the followers on the right (or the Tea Party), I have to ask myself "Are the leaders of the left Christian?"

Just to clarify, I assume you mean "Are the leaders of the right Christian", since Beck is very much on the right.

However, I feel the need to point out that Beck is NOT a "leader" he is a radio personality and entertainer and holds no political office, therefore questioning his Christianity then trying to draw a parallel to others questioning our PRESIDENT'S Christianity doesn't wash. Now, Romney, a former Governor and presidential hopeful, on the other hand...

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Apparently you are just wanting to create more hatred from both sides. Al your thread does is attack, there is no serious question, just points specifically created to anger a certain side. Suddenly it's like the Left wants everybody fighting again, and none of the actual "issues" covered once again. It's taken 30 some years, but I'm seeing a pattern here. Brad

I am just asking a question. Taking a look at all the threads in Totally O/T, one could claim that a good number are created to anger the other side. I have sat silently by for a long time are read the posts in here. It provides an interesting perspective of the political landscape in our country. We have members on the forum from all over, and a good percentage appear to have the same political views. There are posts daily that are duragatory and insulting to a great many people, even threads calling out specific forum members by name. I just want to know... Many on here follow Glenn Beck, and these same people (Christians) have posted numerous hateful comments about our countries political leaders, members of different faiths and more. I just want to know, using the definition of Christianity, Is Glenn Beck a Christian?

quote Originally posted by KidO: I just want to know, using the definition of Christianity, Is Glenn Beck a Christian?

Well, as I would say about Obama, there's no way for us to know. That is between him and God.

However, unlike Obama, I bet Beck could attend a church for far less then 20 years yet still remember if his pastor, repeatedly, mind you, spewed racist and hateful sentiment from the pulpit.

Now, if you're asking if Mormons are Christians, I would say, yes.

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: Just to clarify, I assume you mean "Are the leaders of the right Christian", since Beck is very much on the right. However, I feel the need to point out that Beck is NOT a "leader" he is a radio personality and entertainer and holds no political office, therefore questioning his Christianity then trying to draw a parallel to others questioning our PRESIDENT'S Christianity doesn't wash. Now, Romney, a former Governor and presidential hopeful, on the other hand...

I beg to differ. Mr. Beck has a following, as displayed be his recent rally in D.C. He may not hold political office, but he is definately a leader, with the ability to sway people's political opinions. Mr. Beck stated on his show that he does not believe that President Obama is a Muslim, but he also stated that our President subscribes to a version of Christianity that most Americans just don't recognize. I can only assume that he includes himself in with "most Americans". I'll accept that Glenn Beck claims he is Christian, I just don't agree with his version.

quote Originally posted by KidO: It is "Christians" who are spewing the Hatred. It comes from both sides, the left and the right. Mathew 7:12 tells us "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I do not see that many so called Christians acting that way when it comes to politics. As far as the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson goes, I find that man far from Christian.

Actually, there are many people on here that profess to not be Christian and they spew hate also. So, it's in no way exclusive to Christians. On the rest of what you said there I tend to agree. However I question whether their intent was hateful. I have probably said some things that could be constured as being hateful, when in reality I was poking fun at a poster based on something they had written in the past, attempting to challenge them intellectualy to look at something from a different angle or playing Devils advocate. That is unless I am just tired of seeing the same hateful rhetoric from someone and attempt to call them out on the idiocy they spew, although I do my best to do it in a way that isn't a personal attack but more to shed light on the hatefulness of their words.

Reality is though, being a Christian doesn't make you enlightened beyond the influence of human emotion. There isn't a magic switch that gets tripped making you no longer a sinner. The best they can do is try to be more Christ like, but there is a reason Christ died for their sins.

Me, I will say I am Christian, but am far from perfect. As to which Sect of Christianity I follow, if I'm asked I will tell you if you really think it's that important.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by KidO: Mr. Beck stated on his show that he does not believe that President Obama is a Muslim, but he also stated that our President subscribes to a version of Christianity that most Americans just don't recognize.

To be honest, IF Obama subscribes to the Religion of his former pastor, Black Liberation Theology, I'm not sure I recognize it, either.

But then, An individual's walk with God is a very personal thing and Obama's personal walk with God is not something I can, or will speculate on.

What I CAN speculate on, is the things that his Church has to say, on their very own website:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.

http://www.trinitychicago.o...view&id=12&Itemid=27

Imagine the uproar if my church put THIS on their website:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the White religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are a White people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent"

Holy Crap, there would be hell to pay, the ACLU and the NAACP would be ALL OVER us, and, true to his form, I'm sure Obama himself would stick his nose in to tell the new media all about how "Stupidly" my church was acting...

But lets go even further to things that Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor, a man he claimed was a close personal friend and spiritual mentor, has been known to have said repeatedly from he pulpit of the Church Obama attended for 20 years.

Like how shortly after the September 11 attacks in 2001, Wright said:

"I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday. Did anybody else see him or hear him? He was on Fox News. This is a white man, and he was upsetting the Fox News commentators to no end. He pointed out — did you see him, John? — a white man, he pointed out, ambassador, that what Malcolm X said when he got silenced by Elijah Muhammad was in fact true — America's chickens are coming home to roost."
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye... and now we are indignant, because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."


or when Wright accused the government of purposefully giving black people syphilis:

"The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African American men with syphilis. Governments lie. The government lied about bombing Cambodia and Richard Nixon stood in front of the camera, 'Let me make myself perfectly clear...' Governments lie. The government lied about the drugs for arms Contra scheme orchestrated by Oliver North, and then the government pardoned all the perpetrators so they could get better jobs in the government. Governments lie.... The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. Governments lie. The government lied about a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein and a connection between 9.11.01 and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Governments lie."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...h_Wright_controversy

These things concern me MUCH more then whether Obama's brand of Christianity passes an arbitrary litmus test. I would like to know how a man can attend a church for 20 years, consider his pastor a close, personal friend a mentor, yet claim he NEVER, EVER, EVEN ONCE heard any of these types of speeches.

I just, plain, don't BELIEVE it...

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 09-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: Actually, there are many people on here that profess to not be Christian and they spew hate also. So, it's in no way exclusive to Christians. On the rest of what you said there I tend to agree. However I question whether their intent was hateful. I have probably said some things that could be constured as being hateful, when in reality I was poking fun at a poster based on something they had written in the past, attempting to challenge them intellectualy to look at something from a different angle or playing Devils advocate. That is unless I am just tired of seeing the same hateful rhetoric from someone and attempt to call them out on the idiocy they spew, although I do my best to do it in a way that isn't a personal attack but more to shed light on the hatefulness of their words. Reality is though, being a Christian doesn't make you enlightened beyond the influence of human emotion. There isn't a magic switch that gets tripped making you no longer a sinner. The best they can do is try to be more Christ like, but there is a reason Christ died for their sins. Me, I will say I am Christian, but am far from perfect. As to which Sect of Christianity I follow, if I'm asked I will tell you if you really think it's that important.

Thanks for your understanding. Obviously, my post was a jab, and I was also playing Devil's Advocate. I singled out Glenn Beck, and specifically his religion, since I know that the majority of PFFer's lean towards his political views. More often than not, people only see what they want to when looking at those on "their side". Although not a fan, I understand that Glenn Beck is religious in his own right, and includes his views on theology alongside his views of politics. I have a great number of Mormon friends, and spent more than half my life in UT. I am in WA now, and the people of UT are considerably more Christlike than many I have met in the small town I live in here. No need to post your religion, it's more fun to keep 'em guessing!

quote Originally posted by KidO: It is "Christians" who are spewing the Hatred. It comes from both sides, the left and the right. Mathew 7:12 tells us "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I do not see that many so called Christians acting that way when it comes to politics. As far as the "Reverend" Jesse Jackson goes, I find that man far from Christian.

As a Christian, I don't consider Jesse Jackson a Christian either. He is a hypocrite. He supposedly "counseled " Bill Clinton during the Lewinsky affair, all the while he was having an affair of his own. Of course he could have repented, and I will never know that, but I see no outward evidence of that. I don't consider Glenn Beck a Christian either. There are subtleties that blur the lines, but in short. Mormons believe in Jesus Christ, but don't believe that believing in him and his deity is the only way to salvation. They believe good works will get you to heaven. That is the simplistic explanation, and there are scriptures that back this, but everyone knows them already, and then it becomes a matter of what you believe.

Bottom line for me, and where I see a reoccurring theme, is this. If you keep looking to man for perfection, you will be disappointed every time. "Our righteousness is as filthy rags" There is only one that was perfect, and that was Jesus. Our unrighteousness does not diminish his righteousness.

I've never tried to force my beliefs on anyone here, but it boils my buttons when those that don't share my belief feel they are the experts and give out misinformation. (I don't necessarily mean you KidO I'm just speaking in generalities) I'm sure someone will come along and tell me how hateful I am, but I'll just have to live with that. One thing that is directed at you KidO, there is plenty of "spewing" going around, and your bias is showing.

I'll end on a light note. Everyone mentions about lumping Islam, and radical Islam together, so do me a favor, and don't lump me together with Jesse Jackson.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Mormons believe in Jesus Christ, but don't believe that believing in him and his deity is the only way to salvation. They believe good works will get you to heaven. That is the simplistic explanation, and there are scriptures that back this, but everyone knows them already, and then it becomes a matter of what you believe.

No, you are actually wrong here. Mormons beleive that faith alone doesn't get you into Heaven. They still beleive that you can only go to Heaven if you accept Christ as your Savior and you are Baptised. However, Mormons demand a bit more then just that and lip service. They place a large emphasis on helping their fellow man. This is done through "service" which can be as simple as taking a prepared dinner to a family who just brought home a newborn baby. It can include teaching Sunday school, Missions, helping your neighbor lay sod or Baptisms for the dead as some other examples of "service" if done without expectation of worldly gain. So, if by "don't believe that believing in him and his deity is the only way to salvation" you mean the Baptism for the dead part, then I guess in a way you may be right, but the "believe good works will get you to heaven" is wrong. They do not beleive anyone can go to Heaven unless they except Christ as their Savior and get Baptised. Baptism for the dead is the only "out" so to speak.

Basically Baptism for the dead works like this. Say there was someone who lived a good life but never heard of Christ, or never chose to explore Faith in Christ. Mormons beleive that when they die, as they sit in purgatory with everyone else awaiting judgement they can still teach his word, there's more of that "service". Those who have died that want to learn and accept his word can't go to Heaven because they have not been Baptised right? But, you see Mormons beleive God loves all of his children. So they perform Baptisms for people who have passed on, so when judgement comes, if while in purgatory they found and accepted Christ as their Savior, they can go to Heaven. Foolish beleif? Maybe. So, even those in Purgatory awaiting judgement still must accept Christ as their Savior and get Baptised, although the Baptism happens in this realm with a standin, a Mormon follower providing service to his fellow man.

The phrase "works", which I interchanged with "service" above, pertaining to righteous actions comes up 107 times in the New Testament. They are warned that some proclaim Jesus with lips but Christ will reject them because their works were not there.

If people say they believe in Christ, and don't live like it, then when God looks upon their heart I'm not sure if He'll agree with what their lips say.

Edit to add: I want to expound on one more of their beleifs. They beleive there are 3 levels of Heaven. The first level would be for those who never accepted Christ as their Savior and were never Baptised, this would be the equvilant of Hell. The second level would be for those who accepted Christ as their Savior and were Baptised but never provided service in the name of the Lord to their fellow man in the mortal realm. The third and highest level is for those who accepted Christ as their Savior and where Baptised and provided service to their fellow man in the name of the Lord. You can think of it this way, one would go where they have a dirty puddle of boiling water, the next where they have a clean swimming pool and the last where they have oceans.

quote I'm sure someone will come along and tell me how hateful I am, but I'll just have to live with that.

Please don't think I'm being hateful towards you, that is nowhere near my intent. I've lived in a strongly Mormon community in Utah for almost 4 years now and learned alot about what they beleive.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-12-2010).]

My opinion of Mormons was shaped when young by reading Zane Grey novels. Riders of the Purple Sage is one of the most anti-Mormon books I ever read. There were also many stories about what happened to Joseph Smith in Carthage and how the Mormons were “chased” out of Nauvoo, Illinois. The practice or polygamy was deeply disliked by many and affected the politics greatly. I think a lot of the animosity remains today.

That being said, I lived most of my adult life in Nevada and Arizona. Many of the towns in both States were originally settled by Mormons. You can tell which ones by the street name used which were the same in every original town site.

I’ve worked with and lived next door to Mormons and had several Mormon friends. Also have known many Jack-Mormons along the way. I find some of the Mormon beliefs to be peculiar but they are earnest in their faith. They believe in a final judgement and in living in peace with all others. I’d vote for Mitt Romney without reservation if he were the Republican nominee for President.

quote Originally posted by KidO: I beg to differ. Mr. Beck has a following, as displayed be his recent rally in D.C. He may not hold political office, but he is definately a leader, with the ability to sway people's political opinions. Mr. Beck stated on his show that he does not believe that President Obama is a Muslim, but he also stated that our President subscribes to a version of Christianity that most Americans just don't recognize. I can only assume that he includes himself in with "most Americans". I'll accept that Glenn Beck claims he is Christian, I just don't agree with his version.

So, you are sitting in judgement now?

What would Matthew say?

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

God asked for Witnesses.
All He got was Lawyers.

Glen Beck is a QUACK!!!!!

The guy is going off the deep end and fast........

About half my family on my mother's side are Mormons. My uncle was Jewish, and converted if you can believe that. I believe he and my grandmother and the others converted were highly attracted to the after-death baptism that KHW was speaking of. However, this is also a sore spot for Jews and holocaust survivors, as Mormons were trying to baptise the list of dead from concentration camps to Mormonism - and considering they died BECAUSE they were Jews, I could see how that would not sit well with the living Jewish community and relatives of the holocaust dead.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: About half my family on my mother's side are Mormons. My uncle was Jewish, and converted if you can believe that. I believe he and my grandmother and the others converted were highly attracted to the after-death baptism that KHW was speaking of. However, this is also a sore spot for Jews and holocaust survivors, as Mormons were trying to baptise the list of dead from concentration camps to Mormonism - and considering they died BECAUSE they were Jews, I could see how that would not sit well with the living Jewish community and relatives of the holocaust dead.

Yes, and the Jewish Religion requested that the Mormons stop Baptising their dead. The Mormons respected their request and stopped. Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Jewish are the only ones that have requested the Mormons to not Baptise their dead.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Jewish are the only ones that have requested the Mormons to not Baptise their dead.

As a sitting member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (MYBTBHNA). I would like to state, for the record that it is perfectly acceptable to be Baptized as a Mormon after we die. No problems from this end of the spectrum, as a matter of fact we consider it an honor, and would like to be the first religion to step forward and request that the Mormons Baptize our members after their death (the FSM members, not the Mormons) Do we need to make a speech?

Can we offer the Mormons anything in way of thanks? A beer? A stripper? Wait, I'll still get the stripper factories as far as I can see, even if the Mormons Baptize me, right?

Brad

quote Originally posted by maryjane: So, you are sitting in judgement now?

Religious history is filled with people who have disagreed with the faith of others. If that seats me in judgement so be it. I'll get in line with the rest of them (hypocrites) when the day comes, and take my lashes. On the way there though, I will continue to do things to help out my fellow man, whether he be Christian or not.

[This message has been edited by KidO (edited 09-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: Please don't think I'm being hateful towards you, that is nowhere near my intent. I've lived in a strongly Mormon community in Utah for almost 4 years now and learned alot about what they beleive.

No Khw, you have never been hateful to me, and that post was not hateful. You've had a plus from me for a long time. I'll defer to you on the Mormon belief about Jesus.

quote If people say they believe in Christ, and don't live like it, then when God looks upon their heart I'm not sure if He'll agree with what their lips say.

I strongly agree with this statement.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 09-12-2010).]

More great threads to start...

"Is Jon Stewart really Jewish?"
"Is the Pope Catholic, and does he wear a funny hat?"
and most importantly,
"Does a bear sh1t in the woods?"

These and other deep questions of merit, coming soon to Totally O/T.

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: More great threads to start... "Is Jon Stewart really Jewish?" "Is the Pope Catholic, and does he wear a funny hat?" and most importantly, "Does a bear sh1t in the woods?" These and other deep questions of merit, coming soon to Totally O/T.

LOLOL. The most intelligent post on this thread. Thanks.

I am Mormon, yes we are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ, and believe he is the son of God. We don't believe that men are "born into sin", but that we all are accountable for our own transgressions. As far as the trinity being "traditional", that depends on who you ask. When you research you find that originally the Catholic church believed Christ and God were separate beings. They has a council known as the nicene creed, and within this council many doctrine began to change through the years. One of which was God and Jesus the same or separate. This sparked much debate back then, and there was a falling out with many, i.e. Martin Luther left the catholic church over such issue.

We do believe in the trinity, but not like some faiths do. When the trinity says that that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are "one", we believe they are one in the same cause. Not literally one person as in the same thing. For example, the three musketeers, "all for one, and one for all". they are three separate men, but are for the same cause. Some people take that reference as being "one" literally. We don't, we believe it to be be speaking about alliance in Gods will.

There are many versus from the Bible that state Jesus being separate from God, aside from the fact he is known as the "son of God". these are some of the following scriptures that reference Jesus as being a separate being or personage then God, and not the same being.

Mark 16:19
"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

John 14:28
"My Father is greater than I."

1 Corinthians 11:3
"The head of Christ is God."

Colossians 3:1
"Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

As you can see, there are many references to Christ being separate from God, including words spoken by Christ. When Christ was crucified, he looked up at the sky and said "father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

was he hallucinating and speaking to himself?

These are just some of the examples of why we believe them to be separate.

Just for clarification, here are the 13 articles of faith we believe.

The Articles of Faith are as follows:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

the following article of my faith is perhaps my favorite.
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

we believe all men may worship how they see fit. Who are we to mettle in others beliefs? I only wish the same courtesy would be returned. All too often my church will hold an Easter pageant, only to have a bunch of yahoos holding signs across the street selling anti-Mormon movies and claiming us to not be Christian.

So....... are we Christians? I believe so, we follow Christ and his teachings. Unfortunately though, many people today feel they can dictate ones beliefs and classify if you are or not a "Christian" depending on what fits their world view. I guess the real judge of who is and who is not a Christian would be Christ himself.

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 09-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: More great threads to start... "Is Jon Stewart really Jewish?" "Is the Pope Catholic, and does he wear a funny hat?" and most importantly, "Does a bear sh1t in the woods?" These and other deep questions of merit, coming soon to Totally O/T.

After all the "quote of the days" I wouldn't doubt it haha.

I have a Book of Mormon that I've skimmed a bit. I've read some parts in full but not the entire thing. They have beliefs that contradict the Word which is something I just can't condone. So I don't know if I'd consider them my Brothers in Christ, but I'll never turn down a nice conversation with them to make them think a bit. And make me think a bit.

quote Originally posted by KidO: As I continue to read the hatred spewed on the leaders of the left from the followers on the right (or the Tea Party), I have to ask myself "Are the leaders of the left Christian?" A little research into the Socio-Political Celebrity Glenn Beck tells me that he is Mormon, or a follower of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Is that a Christian religion? A little more research reveals... Depends on who you ask? Mormom replies with an entusiastic "YES". Most other Christians reply with an unequivocal "NO". Islamic Extremists reply with "Who cares, they are American, and they all need to go!" Is Mormonism Christian? A comparison of Mormonism and Historic Christianity I could have marked this a Religion, but Politics seemed more in line so that it could parallel the thread about President Obama's faith of choice. I hope Mitt Romney chimes in with his views!

I'm not sure what Christians you're asking, but I don't know /ANY/ Christian who would say that Mormons are NOT Christian?

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm not sure what Christians you're asking, but I don't know /ANY/ Christian who would say that Mormons are NOT Christian?

you would be surprised. personally I agree with you, a "true" Christian would not make such a statement, but all the "non-denominational" mom and pop Bible thumping churches around here all make such claims. If you go to a "Christian" book store here, they have isles dedicated to carrying slanderous literature proclaiming Mormons, Jehovah witnesses etc. to be "cults". How Christ like huh?

yesterday my neighbor, who plays in a band in one of these churches told me my friend belonged to a "cult" and was messed up because he was a Greek Orthodox Catholic. LOL.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm not sure what Christians you're asking, but I don't know /ANY/ Christian who would say that Mormons are NOT Christian?

I was raised in a Falwellian Baptist church/school during the 70's/80's, and I can assure you that the LDS church, as well as Jehova Witness and the Roman Catholic Church were all denounced in the classroom and the pulpit as false religions.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: "non-denominational" mom and pop Bible thumping churches

Yeah...

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: How Christ like huh?

I'm NOT saying Mormons aren't Christian, but there are some concerns I have.

When some Mormons came to my door one evening I invited them in for some water and discussion. We talked for about an hour and I got really interested in them.

Here are some concerns I had saved in a Word Document on my computer:

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Brigham Young-Journal of Discourses 7:333 says "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods.

NO. There is only one God. (Dt 6:4; 33:26-27; Isa 43:10; 45:5; 46:9; 1Ti 2:5)
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Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1973 ed., p. 346 - "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in a form-like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man."
D & C 130:22 "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also."

The Bible is most explicit in stating that God is not a man (Nu 23:19; 1Sa 15:29; Hos 11:9). God the Father, the eternal God is Spirit (Isa 55:8-9; 6:1-5; 57:15; Pss 90:2; 113:5-6; 123:1; Jn 4:24: 8:23) Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Lk 24:39)
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God the Father has a wife, through whom he procreates spirit children.
"Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother. An exalted and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57) could not be a Father unless a Woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p. 516)

I don't think I need to explain why that should raise some eyebrows.
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God is not a uniquely eternal being. All spirit is self-existent matter and is eternal (without beginning or end). Such "matter (called intelligences) sometimes becomes organized into a spirit being through birth to celestial parents. Then that spirit is born through human parents on earth. Like all people, God took this course and eventually reached Godhood.
God would stop being God if intelligences stopped supporting him as God.
(D&C 93:29, 33; Abraham 3:18-23; Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed. p. 751)

God is not God unless He is all-powerful, all knowing, absolutely in charge. If God exists only as God because of support given from other intelligent forms, He is not God at all (Isa 44:6; Ro 3:4; Rev 1:8; 21:6; 22:13)
God is unchangingly omnipotent, and no purpose of His can be thwarted. He is not overruled by anyone (Ge 17:1; Job 36:22-23; 42:2; Isa 14:26-27; 40:13-14; Jer 32:27; Mt 19:26; Lk 1:37; Ac 17:24-25; Rev 19:6)
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Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29)
Life, intelligence, mind, the 'light of truth' , or whatever name one gives to the center of the personality of man, is an uncreated, eternally existent, indestructible entity...In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence...The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world....eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies...numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of heavenly parents into that eternal family in the spirit world" (The Gospel Through the ages, pp.126-127)

Man is a finite being, not an eternal one. The first man Adam was created at a specific point in time (Ge 1:26-27; 2:7; 1Co 15:45-49). Man did not exist in the beginning when God was creating the universe, for if he had, God's question to Job would have made no sense (Job 38:4). Man was created lower than the angels, so that David wondered why God is even mindful of him (Ps 8:3-5; 144:3). Not a single verse in the Bible suggests that God has a wife, but Isaiah 44:24 explicitly says that the Lord made all things by Himself. Moreover, several passages in Isaiah indicate that there is only one God and there is none beside Him (44:8; 45:6) or like Him (46:9).
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"...these spirit children were organized, possessing divine, eternal, and godlike attributes, inherited from their Heavenly Father and Mother. There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 127).
"Jesus is man's spiritual brother. We dwelt with Him in the spirit world as members of that large society of eternal intelligences, which included our Heavenly Parents and all the personages who have become mortal beings upon this earth or who ever shall come here to dwell...Jesus was the 'firstborn,' and so He is our eldest brother" (Ibid., p.21)

Jesus was and is Almighty God from everlasting to everlasting. He is the creator of all that exists and is "firstborn" over all creation in the sense that He is the preeminent originator of life and the universe (Mic 5:2; Ps 90:2; Jn 1:1-3; Ac 3:14-15; Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2). This meaning for the word "firstborn" can be understood by comparing Genesis 41:51-52, which states that Manasseh was Joseph's "firstborn" son while Ephraim was the second, with Jeremiah 31:9, where God calls Ephraim the "firstborn." Obviously, "firstborn" does not always mean the one literally born first.
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Death and sin came through the fall of Adam and Eve. But their deed was not actually a "sin." It was really a blessing because it enabled man to continue progressing on toward eternal life. "They (the Christian world) have been long taught that Adam and Eve were great transgressors...We, the children of Adam....should rejoice with them, that through their fall and the atonement of Jesus Christ, the way of eternal life has been opened up to us" (Articles of Faith, p. 476)

Rejoicing is hardly the proper response to Adam's sin. Because of that sin, both Adam and Eve died spiritually and their physical bodies began to deteriorate. Eve was given pain and sorrow in child-bearing, Adam was required to work and sweat in order to eat, the entire creation was cursed, they were thrown out of the Garden forever, and the entire human race was destined to be born dead in sins and children of god's wrath by nature. To rejoice in the fall of man is to embrace Satan's lie. It was Satan who deceived Eve by convincing her that sin was good and would bring her knowledge and reward. (Ge 3:16-24; Ro 3:23; 5:12-15, 17-19; 8:19-22 Eph 2:1-5; 1Jn 3:4)
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Christ's death on the cross (the atonement) canceled the penalty of death imposed on ALL men through Adam's sin, thereby ensuring that all men would be redeemed - resurrected and given immortality (the reuniting of spirit with body)-as a gift.
"If there had been no atonement, temporal death would have remained forever, and there never would have remained forever, and there never would have been a resurrection. The body would have remained forever in the grave" (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p.63)
"Redemption from death, through the sufferings of Christ, is for all men, both the righteous and the wicked" (Ibid., p. 65)
"Immortality is a free gift which comes by grace alone without works on man's part" (Ibid., p. 377)

Not everyone is blessed through Christ's crucifixion. Only those who accept His sacrifice and surrender themselves to Him (Ro 10:9) will receive the benefit of Jesus' death and resurrection, which is forgiveness of sins (Ac 10:43) and salvation (Ro 3:24). Eternal life "in Christ," and not just simply eternal existence through resurrection, is the gift offered by God to humanity (Ro 6:23). This gift is obtainable only by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-10).
Jesus' death serves to reconcile all believers to God (Ro 5:10). In dying, Jesus broke down the wall of separation between us and God that was present through man's disobedience to the Law (Eph 2:11-22)

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: The Articles of Faith are as follows: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I was thinking of posting that, but had not got to it.

This is one beleif that I, having lost a child at 22 hours of life, have questioned from the faith I had grown up with.

"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

According to the faith I grew up with my child was born with sin. Therefore my child could not go to Heaven unless he accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior and gets Baptised. Yes, we had him Baptised before he passed, but to me it was truely a symbolic gesture. He could not have known of Jesus Christ and did not consent to the Baptism. So you are left with a choice in your mind. Either your child was to impure of a soul and born in such a wretched state that he had no chance of redemption or his soul was to pure and all he needed was mortal existence to get his body. This is something that has tore at my mind, which do I truely beleive of God?

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: If you go to a "Christian" book store here, they have isles dedicated to carrying slanderous literature proclaiming Mormons, Jehovah witnesses etc. to be "cults". How Christ like huh?

If a group is not following his (Jesus') teachings, then Jesus would, and will call them on it. So yes, that would be Christ like. If you don't agree. then fine, but there is nothing slanderous about it. True Christians would and do speak up about it. I'm not gonna sit here and spend time trying to convince you of otherwise, but don't sit there and say people aren't true Christians because they speak their mind. Mormons, Jehovah witness, among others do practice and observe beliefs that are not consistent with the Bible.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Khw: I was thinking of posting that, but had not got to it. This is one beleif that I, having lost a child at 22 hours of life, have questioned from the faith I had grown up with. "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." According to the faith I grew up with my child was born with sin. Therefore my child could not go to Heaven unless he accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior and gets Baptised. Yes, we had him Baptised before he passed, but to me it was truely a symbolic gesture. He could not have known of Jesus Christ and did not consent to the Baptism. So you are left with a choice in your mind. Either your child was to impure of a soul and born in such a wretched state that he had no chance of redemption or his soul was to pure and all he needed was mortal existence to get his body. This is something that has tore at my mind, which do I truely beleive of God.

We don't believe children need to be baptized, we believe they are pure of heart. This is why we don't baptized until the age of 8. How can a baby accept Christ as their savior when they know no better. Besides, we believe God to be just, is it just to not allow a child who dies at birth before being baptized not into the kingdom of heaven? I think not.