For all you neutral people out there, this is what I'm talking about.

I have only shared my beliefs and given examples of condemnation by others. Never once did I or have I on this forum state that anyone was wrong for what they believe, nor did I ever attack anyone. So far I have been attacked by others, who wish to say its ok to attack other religions who don't adhere to what they "think" a Christian is, and that my religion is wrong and I am not a Christan. The only thing I ever pointed out is that a true Christian would not waste their time,energy and money spreading lies an slander about others faiths. And yes......it is slander. All that garbage you read in the book store are not close to being true, and are completely false in what they say.

Need I say more? I rest my case.

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 09-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: For all you neutral people out there, this is what I'm talking about. I have only shared my beliefs and given examples of condemnation by others. Never once did I or have I on this forum state that anyone was wrong for what they believe, nor did I ever attack anyone. So far I have been attacked by others, who wish to say its ok to attack other religions who don't adhere to what they "think" a Christian is, and that my religion is wrong and I am not a Christan. The only thing I ever pointed out is that a true Christian would not waste their time,energy and money spreading lies an slander about others faiths. And yes......it is slander. All that garbage you read in the book store are not close to being true, and are completely false in what they say. Need I say more? I rest my case.

Well said, Nick.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: Sure buddy, going out of your way to spread false literature about others faiths and why they are wrong is "Christ like". What ever you say.

Sorry buddy, but I'm not spreading false literature about others faith, but I believe that there are things about Mormonism that are not in line with the Bible. I never attacked you, but to say someone is not a "true" Christian because they disagree with you is passing the same judgment you so loudly are against. Look, bottom line, I not mad at you or against you, but I cannot sit idly by while things are said about my faith that are not true. Khw called me on something I believed to be true about Mormonisn, I deffered to his oppinion on the matter. I didn't get in a huff and get my feathers ruffled. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree on this matter. I think I'll stay out of this for now, before my red grows. I like this forum too much.

Jim

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: I never stated you said anything of the sort. You only stated you had some differences with them. I was not specifically speaking to you, I was speaking to the environment in which I live. I have been subjected to bigotry my entire life by those who preach tolerance of others.

No I realize this! I was just putting in my piece as well. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

I'm pretty busy right now but if I remember I'll get back to some points you brought up.

Good discussion

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: I think I'll stay out of this for now, before my red grows. I like this forum too much. Jim

Your red would not grow from a click of my mouse button. I have you as a + and see no reason to change it.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Sorry buddy, but I'm not spreading false literature about others faith, but I believe that there are things about Mormonism that are not in line with the Bible. I never attacked you, but to say someone is not a "true" Christian because they disagree with you is passing the same judgment you so loudly are against. Look, bottom line, I not mad at you or against you, but I cannot sit idly by while things are said about my faith that are not true. Khw called me on something I believed to be true about Mormonisn, I deffered to his oppinion on the matter. I didn't get in a huff and get my feathers ruffled. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree on this matter. I think I'll stay out of this for now, before my red grows. I like this forum too much. Jim

I never said anyone was not "Christ like" for disagreeing with me or my beliefs, I said they are not Christ like if they believe its a Christian thing to slander, premote hate, premote lies, and spread the word that other's religions are "cults". This is not the bahvior of a Christain. I dont think your mad at me, but you if beleive its Christian like to be intolerant and its ok for churches to pass out Anti-mormon, Anti-Jovah Witnesses, etc. literature, then I must say, in my opinion, this is not behavior that Christ premoted or taught. It goes against his teachings.

When my church puts on a free public Easter pagent telling the story of Christ, do you think think it is Christ like to stand across the street with Anit-Mormon signs? Yelling out anti-Mormon things? How about selling anti-Mormon movies and giving away free pamplets that are full of half truths and skewed facts to tear down the religion?

These are not the actions of true Christians in the global sense, nor do they reflect well on the people who do it. That IS my point. For me to take such a postion is hardley premoting "judgment" of others as you put it. I never said they were not Christians, I only said their behavior was not Christ like, something that most would agree with it.

Dont you see a problem when there are people that invest so much time tearing down others when they should be worrying about building up them selves?

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 09-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Apparently you are just wanting to create more hatred from both sides. Al your thread does is attack, there is no serious question, just points specifically created to anger a certain side. Suddenly it's like the Left wants everybody fighting again, and none of the actual "issues" covered once again. It's taken 30 some years, but I'm seeing a pattern here. Brad

That is the tool of extremists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc. Anyone seeking power for power's sake alone uses the power of hate to motivate its base.

The extreme right is not a very powerful or vocal group in the US but the Extreme Left is in power! They run the White House, the Congress and most of the states and the network media like NBC and ABC. As a result, we are going to be inundated with BS about the "Hated" right.

One thing you can be sure of, when one group is more negatively vocal about the other, They are the ones who you should fear. Right now, all you hear is hate talk from the left.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: That is the tool of extremists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc. Anyone seeking power for power's sake alone uses the power of hate to motivate its base. The extreme right is not a very powerful or vocal group in the US but the Extreme Left is in power! They run the White House, the Congress and most of the states and the network media like NBC and ABC. As a result, we are going to be inundated with BS about the "Hated" right. One thing you can be sure of, when one group is more negatively vocal about the other, They are the ones who you should fear. Right now, all you hear is hate talk from the left.

I agree 100%

quote Originally posted by Toddster: That is the tool of extremists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc. Anyone seeking power for power's sake alone uses the power of hate to motivate its base. The extreme right is not a very powerful or vocal group in the US but the Extreme Left is in power! They run the White House, the Congress and most of the states and the network media like NBC and ABC. As a result, we are going to be inundated with BS about the "Hated" right. One thing you can be sure of, when one group is more negatively vocal about the other, They are the ones who you should fear. Right now, all you hear is hate talk from the left.

yes those teabaggers are a quite bunch
who never spew hate or fear

wait a second
none of the above is true

and none of todds posts are remotely factual

you do know both ABC & NBC are own by mega CORPRATS

quote Originally posted by Toddster: That is the tool of extremists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc. Anyone seeking power for power's sake alone uses the power of hate to motivate its base. The extreme right is not a very powerful or vocal group in the US but the Extreme Left is in power! They run the White House, the Congress and most of the states and the network media like NBC and ABC. As a result, we are going to be inundated with BS about the "Hated" right. One thing you can be sure of, when one group is more negatively vocal about the other, They are the ones who you should fear. Right now, all you hear is hate talk from the left.

Well put, but on this forum, there is considerable hate talk from the right, and the Tea Party (for those that do not consider it right). How often do you see posts on this forum about the President that get responses using his real name? Most of the time it is an offensive variation, or some slant towards the Muslim relgion many here think he subscribes to. This is hate talk, and it is far from constructive. It is childish, and makes the speaker sound like a sore loser, rather than someone who wants to intelligently disagree. Unfortunately, it is a lot easier to rally people with negativity than it is to focus on the good merits of the other side.

Hopefully no Mormons were offended by this thread, that was not its intent. Like any religion, there are good and bad. Since I do not know you personally, I will not judge. But Glenn Beck, and his beliefs seemed a good place to start the debate. He may not be a political leader, but he is a leader, and has shown that he has alot of influence on those that subscribe to his political views. All the while using Christianity as one of the tools used to influence his followers.

quote Originally posted by KidO: Well put, but on this forum, there is considerable hate talk from the right, and the Tea Party (for those that do not consider it right). How often do you see posts on this forum about the President that get responses using his real name? Most of the time it is an offensive variation, or some slant towards the Muslim relgion many here think he subscribes to. This is hate talk, and it is far from constructive. It is childish, and makes the speaker sound like a sore loser, rather than someone who wants to intelligently disagree. Unfortunately, it is a lot easier to rally people with negativity than it is to focus on the good merits of the other side. Hopefully no Mormons were offended by this thread, that was not its intent. Like any religion, there are good and bad. Since I do not know you personally, I will not judge. But Glenn Beck, and his beliefs seemed a good place to start the debate. He may not be a political leader, but he is a leader, and has shown that he has alot of influence on those that subscribe to his political views. All the while using Christianity as one of the tools used to influence his followers.

I was never offended, however I have never seen anything Glenn Beck has said as being hateful. In fact, he has proven to be quite the uniter.

quote Originally posted by KidO: As I continue to read the hatred spewed on the leaders of the left from the followers on the right (or the Tea Party), I have to ask myself "Are the leaders of the left Christian?" A little research into the Socio-Political Celebrity Glenn Beck tells me that he is Mormon, or a follower of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Is that a Christian religion? A little more research reveals... Depends on who you ask?

Glenns a talk show jokester.



As for his faith. I never like what I heard from them back in the seventies when a two showed up at my mom's home. They mention that Blacks weren't allowed in heaven, but only on the third level crap.

"In the LDS religion any worthy male can be given the priesthood and is given specific duties. Black people were not allowed to have the priesthood until 1978. Females are not allowed to have the priesthood." http://listverse.com/2008/0...arre-mormon-beliefs/

Since then that belief is now dismissed and they don't want to talk about it.

quote Originally posted by KidO: Well put, but on this forum, there is considerable hate talk from the right, and the Tea Party (for those that do not consider it right). How often do you see posts on this forum about the President that get responses using his real name? Most of the time it is an offensive variation, or some slant towards the Muslim relgion many here think he subscribes to. This is hate talk, and it is far from constructive. It is childish, and makes the speaker sound like a sore loser, rather than someone who wants to intelligently disagree. Unfortunately, it is a lot easier to rally people with negativity than it is to focus on the good merits of the other side. Hopefully no Mormons were offended by this thread, that was not its intent. Like any religion, there are good and bad. Since I do not know you personally, I will not judge. But Glenn Beck, and his beliefs seemed a good place to start the debate. He may not be a political leader, but he is a leader, and has shown that he has alot of influence on those that subscribe to his political views. All the while using Christianity as one of the tools used to influence his followers.

Wow! I guess I should go for some kind of remedial training or such. Ya see, I thought all that stuff that was said about Sarah Palin and her family was hate speech, or calling those who participate in Tea Party events "Tea Baggers". That is what I thought hate speech was!

Now that Bristol Palin is going on Dancing With The Star I'll bet there won't be any hate speech about HER.

Or some of the things Howard Dean, or Keith Olberman have said about conservatives, or Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham or Fox News.

I thought THAT was hate speech. hmph! Guess not!

Heh, I have not posted in here once!

Aw, crap.

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: Wow! I guess I should go for some kind of remedial training or such. Ya see, I thought all that stuff that was said about Sarah Palin and her family was hate speech, or calling those who participate in Tea Party events "Tea Baggers". That is what I thought hate speech was! Now that Bristol Palin is going on Dancing With The Star I'll bet there won't be any hate speech about HER. Or some of the things Howard Dean, or Keith Olberman have said about conservatives, or Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham or Fox News. I thought THAT was hate speech. hmph! Guess not!

Just as hatful and just as childish... But the few who post those things are greatly overshadowed by the many who post about the President. Especially lately...

You would have a pretty hard time trying to convince a passer by that PFF leans any direction but to the right. That's why I like to read the posts in OT.

Once Ms. Palin puts on her dancing shoes, I'll stop by and defend her!

quote Originally posted by KidO: Just as hatful and just as childish... But the few who post those things are greatly overshadowed by the many who post about the President. Especially lately... You would have a pretty hard time trying to convince a passer by that PFF leans any direction but to the right. That's why I like to read the posts in OT. Once Ms. Palin puts on her dancing shoes, I'll stop by and defend her!

quote Originally posted by KidO: Well put, but on this forum, there is considerable hate talk from the right, and the Tea Party (for those that do not consider it right). How often do you see posts on this forum about the President that get responses using his real name? Most of the time it is an offensive variation, or some slant towards the Muslim relgion many here think he subscribes to. This is hate talk, and it is far from constructive. It is childish, and makes the speaker sound like a sore loser, rather than someone who wants to intelligently disagree. Unfortunately, it is a lot easier to rally people with negativity than it is to focus on the good merits of the other side.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: 04-18-2010 04:33 PM It amazes me that there are 412 threads in O/T (and counting) regarding Obama- yet the threads continue- each becoming dumber and dummier as the days moves forward.

I imagine by now there's more threads now.



Oh yeah, when you jokingly point out the silliness regarding Palin or The Maverick the "regulars" will be pissed and use the "default mode"-they'll call you a racist, because they can't think of nothing else to say. Also, the "regulars" here on PFF Lord-it-over on Pennock's and act like they're "Lords of the Covenant," "Defenders of Constitution." They weill even start treads to pull you out and then mock up relentlessly. It makes no different if the thread is entitled, "tampons" the regulars will indeed input "Obama" into the thread.

Me? I like laughing at them.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 09-13-2010).]

quote Originally posted by KidO: Mormon, or a follower of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Is that a Christian religion? A little more research reveals... Depends on who you ask? Mormom replies with an entusiastic "YES". Most other Christians reply with an unequivocal "NO".

Good question.

Question: "How should Christians view the book of Mormon?"

Answer: When Mormon missionaries (properly called Latter Day Saints or simply "LDS") come to your door they will often offer a free copy of the Book of Mormon and tell you about its author Joseph Smith. Smith, they will say, translated the Book of Mormon from golden plates he dug up in a hill in New York in the early 1800's. This is supposed to confirm his calling from God as the new prophet on the Earth in these latter days. Further, they will tell you that the Holy Ghost will confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon truth by producing good feelings in you. Next will come the invitation to "Read the Book of Mormon, pray, and ask God to show you it is true." Of course you must do this with sincerity or it won't work.

Before you fall to your knees, there are some things you need to know that they are not telling you (and won't unless you ask). The first concerns many LDS beliefs that separate them from historical, orthodox Christianity. These are not found in the Book of Mormon. In fact, there is really very little in that book that is doctrinally disagreeable to orthodox Christians. The real meat of Mormonism is found in their other scriptures, The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. These books, however, Mormons do not hand out at the door - and for good reason. If people knew up front what they were really going to be asked to believe (things such as God once being a man, denial of the Trinity, Satan being Jesus' brother, pre-existence of souls, etc.) they may not be quite so willing to put aside their skepticism.

The second thing to realize is that to accept the Book of Mormon, one is in fact accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet. So what about this test of a prophet? Isn't it legitimate to "give this question up to God?" No, it isn't. This is because God has already revealed His test for would-be Prophets, and it has nothing to do with prayer or feelings, and God has no obligation to answer prayers that he has already answered! We do not have to ask God whether or not we should rob a bank or murder someone. Rather, James 1:5 says "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God . . . and it will be given to him." Wisdom is applied knowledge, not lack of it.

God never tells us to pray about what is true. When we want to know how tall a wall is, we don't pray about it; we get something that we know is true (a ruler) and compare it to the wall. The Bible, God's word, is true. That is our measuring stick for truth. See Acts 17:11, for example, which describes a group of people who were considered noble because when Paul came to them with the Christian message they "received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so."

Feelings are unreliable because they are subjective, easy to produce, and are not meant to discover facts but to tell us how we feel about facts. Psychological persuasion techniques, intensity, eye contact, or mere desire can produce feelings that feel real because they are real! But real feelings are still just letting us know how we are reacting to something, not the truthfulness of that thing. The Mormon missionary handbook specifically details these techniques and missionaries go through training on how to persuade people before they ever leave the house.

What are the biblical tests for a prophet? They are in God's Word: Deuteronomy 18:21-22 says, "You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Did Joseph Smith ever claim "in the name of the LORD" that something would happen when it did not? Yes—many times in fact.

Joseph Smith prophesied that New York would be destroyed if they rejected the [Mormon] gospel (D&C 84:114-115). He also prophesied that the rebellion of South Carolina and war between the states would result in war being poured out upon all nations; slaves would revolt; the inhabitants of the earth would mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations would result (D&C 87). Oddly, this prophecy is the one most often cited by Mormons to prove Joseph Smith's prophetic power!

Further, Deuteronomy 13:1-3 says that "if a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, ‘Let us follow other gods’ (gods you have not known) ‘and let us worship them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul." Did Joseph Smith lead his followers to other gods? Yes.

Joseph Smith was a polytheist. History of the Church 6:474 records Smith stating, "I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods." Joseph Smith declared that "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345). This is clearly not the biblical God.

Galatians 1:6-7 says that people may be "turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all . . . trying to pervert the gospel of Christ." And he pronounced a curse upon them for doing so. In Romans 1:16 Paul tells us that the gospel is "the power of God unto salvation" - that's pretty important. Did Joseph Smith teach a "different Gospel"? Yes.

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the "fullness of the gospel." The Book of Mormon says so itself in its introduction (see also Doctrines and Covenants 20:9; 27:5; 42:12; and 135:3). So what is the gospel according to Mormonism? It's a tough question for many LDS to answer. According to Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, author of the book Mormon Doctrine, the gospel is "the plan of salvation [that] embraces all of the laws, principles, doctrines, rites, ordinances, acts, powers, authorities, and keys necessary to save and exalt men." In other words, the whole of Mormon theology. In the Mormon gospel we see belief + repentance + baptism + laying on of hands + temple work + mission work + church ministry + tithing + ceasing from sin + abstaining from the use of intoxicants and strong drinks and tobacco and caffeine + confessing Joseph Smith as Prophet + temple marriage + baptism for the dead + genealogy research . Only upon completion of all these things may Mormons attain to the third and highest level of heaven thus achieving the ultimate goal of the Mormon gospel - godhood. (see McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 116-117; Book of Mormon [3 Nephi 27:13-21]; Doctrines of Salvation 1:268; 18:213; The 4th Article of Faith; Smith, Gospel Doctrine pg. 107; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 3:93; 3:247; 9:312; Gospel Principles 290; Doctrine and Covenants 39:5-6; 132:19-20). In essence, Christ's death means nothing more to a Mormon than the gaining of the ability to be resurrected so that their works may be judged.

http://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Mormon.html

Please don't take offense to any of this, my tone is strictly "conversation tone". For the benefit of both of us learning about Christ.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: I am Mormon, yes we are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ, and believe he is the son of God. We don't believe that men are "born into sin", but that we all are accountable for our own transgressions.

Ephesisans 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful naturea and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Matthew 15:16-19
16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ”

Romans 7:21-25
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 6:16-23
15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Perhaps this idea is debatable, but the way I read it is that we are born into sin because of the Original Sin's corruption of Earth. We are sinful beings until washed clean.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: As far as the trinity being "traditional", that depends on who you ask. When you research you find that originally the Catholic church believed Christ and God were separate beings. They has a council known as the nicene creed, and within this council many doctrine began to change through the years. One of which was God and Jesus the same or separate. This sparked much debate back then, and there was a falling out with many, i.e. Martin Luther left the catholic church over such issue. We do believe in the trinity, but not like some faiths do. When the trinity says that that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are "one", we believe they are one in the same cause. Not literally one person as in the same thing. For example, the three musketeers, "all for one, and one for all". they are three separate men, but are for the same cause. Some people take that reference as being "one" literally. We don't, we believe it to be be speaking about alliance in Gods will. There are many versus from the Bible that state Jesus being separate from God, aside from the fact he is known as the "son of God". these are some of the following scriptures that reference Jesus as being a separate being or personage then God, and not the same being. Mark 16:19 "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I." 1 Corinthians 11:3 "The head of Christ is God." Colossians 3:1 "Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." As you can see, there are many references to Christ being separate from God, including words spoken by Christ. When Christ was crucified, he looked up at the sky and said "father forgive them, for they know not what they do" was he hallucinating and speaking to himself? These are just some of the examples of why we believe them to be separate.

I have dozens of verses I want you to read because this is probably the thing I disagree most with. Because even though this might not be as controversial as "God has a wife", this is something that I believe can easily sway someone's opinion that doesn't know the Word.

This website will describe it better. I implore you to read it. I think it's absolutely vital. http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

So every man preaching the Gospel has to be approved by superiors? I wonder if Jesus was approved by the Pharisees...

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

"Joseph Smith, the author of the Book of Mormon, tried to do some miracles such as prophecy (a test for a true prophet in Deuteronomy 18:21-22) but failed several times. He foretold of Christ's second coming in History of the Church (HC) 2:382. Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (about 1891). The second coming did not occur in 1891, and the Mormon Church does not claim that it did. Nor has it occurred since. He also prophesied that several cities would be destroyed in Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 84:114-115. New York, Albany and Boston were to be destroyed if they rejected the gospel according to Smith. Joseph Smith himself went to New York, Albany, and Boston and preached there. These cities did not accept his gospel, yet they have not been destroyed. Another famous false prophecy of Joseph Smith was his "END OF ALL NATIONS" in D&C 87 concerning the rebellion of South Carolina in the war between the states. The South was supposed to call on Great Britain for aid, and as a result war would be poured out upon all nations; slaves would revolt; the inhabitants of the earth would mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations would result. The South finally did revolt in 1861, but the slaves did not rise up, war was not poured out upon all nations, there was no worldwide famine, plague, earthquake, etc., and there was no resulting "end of all nations."

Furthermore, Mark 13:32-37 says 32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to stay awake. 35 Therefore stay awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake.”

How did Joseph Smith claim to know when not even Jesus knew?

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Where does the Bible mention America?

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: the following article of my faith is perhaps my favorite. "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." we believe all men may worship how they see fit. Who are we to mettle in others beliefs? I only wish the same courtesy would be returned. All too often my church will hold an Easter pageant, only to have a bunch of yahoos holding signs across the street selling anti-Mormon movies and claiming us to not be Christian. So....... are we Christians? I believe so, we follow Christ and his teachings. Unfortunately though, many people today feel they can dictate ones beliefs and classify if you are or not a "Christian" depending on what fits their world view. I guess the real judge of who is and who is not a Christian would be Christ himself.

Judging is wrong, and I don't believe anyone should stand outside your church and condemn you. However, I would suggest that if you saw a brother on the ground you'd try and pick him back up. That kind of help is beneficial to both parties. If you see someone preaching something that isn't the Word of God won't you interfere?

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I would suggest that if you saw a brother on the ground you'd try and pick him back up. That kind of help is beneficial to both parties. If you see someone preaching something that isn't the Word of God won't you interfere?

This is so true.

“The book of Jude. Jude was the half-brother of Jesus and a leader in the early Church. In his New Testament letter, he outlines how to recognize apostasy and strongly urges those in the body of Christ to contend earnestly for the faith (vs. 3). The Greek word translated “contend earnestly” is a compound verb from where we get the word “agonize.” It is in the present infinitive form, which means that the struggle will be continuous. In other words, Jude is telling us that there will be a constant fight against false teaching and that Christians should take it so seriously that we “agonize” over the fight in which we are engaged. Moreover, Jude makes it clear that every Christian is called to this fight, not just the local body’s leaders, so it is critical that all believers sharpen their discernment skills so that they can recognize and prevent apostasy in their midst.

First, Jude says that apostasy can be subtle. Jude uses the word “crept” (found in no other book of the Bible) to describe the apostate’s entry into the church. In extra-biblical Greek the term describes the cunning craftiness of a lawyer who, through clever argumentation, infiltrated the minds of courtroom officials and corrupted their thinking. The word literally means slip in sideways; come in stealthily; sneak in; hard to detect. In other words, Jude says it is rare that apostasy begins in an overt and easily detectable manner. Instead, it looks a lot like Arius’ preaching and, for example, in a seemingly dismissive and nonchalant manner says that only a single letter differentiates its doctrine and the real teaching of the Christian faith.
The dangers of apostasy were warned about in the book of Jude, which serves as a handbook for understanding the characteristics of apostates like those chronicled in Dennett and LaScola’s study. Jude’s words are every bit as relevant for us today as they were when he penned them in the first century, so it is important we carefully read and understand them.
A recent example of this process is a 2010 study done by prominent atheist Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola called “Preachers who are not Believers.” Dennett and LaScola’s work chronicles five different preachers who over time were presented with and accepted heretical teachings about Christianity and now have completely fallen away from the faith and are either pantheists or clandestine atheists. One of the most disturbing truths highlighted in the study is that these preachers maintain their position as pastors of Christian churches with their congregations being unaware of their leader’s true spiritual state.
To fully identify and combat apostasy, it is important that Christians understand its various forms and the traits that categorize its doctrines and teachers. As to the forms of apostasy, there are two main types: (1) A falling away from key and true doctrines of the Bible into heretical teachings that proclaim to be ‘the real’ Christian doctrine; (2) A complete renunciation of the Christian faith, which results in a full abandonment of Christ.
In fact, Scripture says apostasy will only get worse as Christ’s return approaches. “At that time [the latter days] many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another” (Matthew 24:10). Paul echoes Jesus in his inspired writings as well. The Apostle told the Thessalonians that a great falling away would precede Christ’s second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and that the end times would be characterized by tribulation and hollow religious charlatans: “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be . . . holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these” (2 Timothy 3:1-2, 5).

This being true, it is critical, now more than ever, that every believer pray for discernment, combat apostasy, and contend earnestly for the faith that has once and for all been delivered to the saints.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy.html

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-13-2010).]

Bump.

I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation.

I often wonder how one makes sure they are following the correct path to God... Is it usually the one they are born into and taught as a child? Hmmmmmmmm deep thoughts...

quote Originally posted by newf: I often wonder how one makes sure they are following the correct path to God... Is it usually the one they are born into and taught as a child? Hmmmmmmmm deep thoughts...

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"
1 Corinthians 13:11

quote Originally posted by spark1: "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things" 1 Corinthians 13:11

Speaks of immaturity and is almost poetic, not sure how it answers my question.

quote Originally posted by newf: I often wonder how one makes sure they are following the correct path to God... Is it usually the one they are born into and taught as a child? Hmmmmmmmm deep thoughts...

I found Christ in 7th grade and fell out after senior year of high school into freshman year of college. I did a lot of searching on my own to find the Truth.

I also know many many individuals that have come to Faith without any family history in it.

People "born into a faith" might follow it, but to answer your question of "making sure they are following the correct path of God"... it's NOT just what they're born into.

quote Originally posted by newf: Speaks of immaturity and is almost poetic, not sure how it answers my question.

What the quote says to me is that no matter what you were taught or believed as a child, as an adult you have to make an adult choice about what you believe. Make a choice, even if that choice is to have no faith at all. It is your responsibility and you cannot blame it on what you were taught while young.

quote Originally posted by spark1: What the quote says to me is that no matter what you were taught or believed as a child, as an adult you have to make an adult choice about what you believe. Make a choice, even if that choice is to have no faith at all. It is your responsibility and you cannot blame it on what you were taught while young.

A very good life lesson.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Judging is wrong, and I don't believe anyone should stand outside your church and condemn you. However, I would suggest that if you saw a brother on the ground you'd try and pick him back up. That kind of help is beneficial to both parties. If you see someone preaching something that isn't the Word of God won't you interfere?

I see, so your interpretation of the "word" is the correct one? Never mind the fact that there are literally thousands of Christian denominations today that all practice doctrine in according to their own interpretation of it. There are even Catholic denominations that differ in practice. For you to sit here and speak as if your idea of what the "word" is, is the correct one, only then to state my belief is "false" and not the "word", is not only naive, but it is very arrogant to boot.

[This message has been edited by NickD3.4 (edited 09-14-2010).]

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: For you to sit here and speak as if your idea of what the "word" is, is the correct one, only then to state my belief is "false" and not the "word", is not only naive, but it is very arrogant to boot.

It may not be a good venue. But I can't see it as being naive. If you believe what you believe, you think his view is as equally wrong as he thinks yours is.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: It may not be a good venue. But I can't see it as being naive. If you believe what you believe, you think his view is as equally wrong as he thinks yours is.

Not true, I never said his views were wrong. In fact, as stated in my Churches articles of faith, every man can worship how they may. I could care less what he believes or how he prays. It is of no concern to me. My salvation is between myself and God, it concerns no one else. I have spoken on here about theology, and different perspectives concerning it. I NEVER once said anyones beliefs or interpretation of the scriptures were wrong. I on the other hand, have been told by many on here how I am wrong, and how my religion is false, blah blah blah. Pretty typical really, I didn't expect anything less. Bigotry is something I have dealt with my whole life, and when it comes to the Latter Day Saints, the bigots come out in full force to preach how wrong they are, and their not Christians etc.

Show me once on here where I stated someones understanding of Christianity was wrong...............you wont, because it never happened.

and finally we've come to the fork in the road, the divide between 'Christianity' and 'religion'.

The Bible is clear about becoming a Christian, 'salvation'. It has been called 'The Romans Road'.

The Romans Road to Salvation

The ROMANS ROAD....is a pathway you can walk.
It is a group of Bible verses from the book of Romans in the New Testament. If you walk down this road you will end up understanding how to be saved.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin. We were born under the power of sin's control.
- Admit that you are a sinner.

Romans 6:23a "...The wages of sin is death..."
Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.
- Understand that you deserve death for your sin.

Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Salvation is a free gift from God to you! You can't earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it.
- Ask God to forgive you and save you.

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"
When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!
- Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin. His love is what saves you -- not religion, or church membership. God loves you!

Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"
- Call out to God in the name of Jesus!

Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
- If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door, ask Him to come into your heart.

Jesus said, Revelation 3:20a "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..."
- Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?

Beyond that is religion:

Mark 7:1 And there are gathered together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, 2 and had seen that some of his disciples ate their bread with defiled, that is, unwashen, hands. 3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands diligently, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders; 4 and [when they come] from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes ask him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with defiled hands? 6 And he said unto them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, But their heart is far from me. 7 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching [as their] doctrines the precepts of men. 8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. 9 And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death: 11 but ye say, If a man shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is Corban, that is to say, Given [to God]; 12 ye no longer suffer him to do aught for his father or his mother; 13 making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do. 14 And he called to him the multitude again, and said unto them, Hear me all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing from without the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man. 16 [If any man hath ears to hear, let him hear.] 17 And when he was entered into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked of him the parable. 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Perceive ye not, that whatsoever from without goeth into the man, [it] cannot defile him; 19 because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? [This he said], making all meats clean. 20 And he said, That which proceedeth out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness: 23 all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.

It is more than just unfortunate that much religion gets mixed into becoming a Christian and what Christianity is. We should be very cautious when ANY belief system claims that 'their' book is necessary or 'their' doctrines and dogma are required for salvation.

As for Glenn Beck, I believe that he truly IS a Christian. He exhibits more of the qualities of Christianity than any other of the current 'personalities' in the news. He calls us to faith in God (without pointing to his faith - Mormonism). He calls us to hope, a hope in a better future if we learn Godly principles. He calls us to charity, a result of a heart that is concerned with the welfare of those around us. All traits of heart that is a 'new creation'. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 09-14-2010).]

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: As for Glenn Beck, I believe that he truly IS a Christian. He exhibits more of the qualities of Christianity than any other of the current 'personalities' in the news. He calls us to faith in God (without pointing to his faith - Mormonism). He calls us to hope, a hope in a better future if we learn Godly principles. He calls us to charity, a result of a heart that is concerned with the welfare of those around us. All traits of heart that is a 'new creation'. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Amen to that.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: I see, so your interpretation of the "word" is the correct one? Never mind the fact that there are literally thousands of Christian denominations today that all practice doctrine in according to their own interpretation of it. There are even Catholic denominations that differ in practice. For you to sit here and speak as if your idea of what the "word" is, is the correct one, only then to state my belief is "false" and not the "word", is not only naive, but it is very arrogant to boot.

Look, my posts have been nothing but respectful. I don't claim to know everything, and am opening myself up to questioning from you.

I was hoping we could engage in real conversation about it, and learn from each other.

I'm not attacking you, I'm bringing up my concerns.

If you really do have a problem with this I can stop replying on here. I just never figured you would have a problem.

Again, I'm not attacking you. If you read my post with a more calm tone you'll see that (I hope).

Hope that clears anything up. I'm not trying to be arrogant.

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: Not true, I never said his views were wrong. In fact, as stated in my Churches articles of faith, every man can worship how they may. I could care less what he believes or how he prays. It is of no concern to me. My salvation is between myself and God, it concerns no one else. I have spoken on here about theology, and different perspectives concerning it. I NEVER once said anyones beliefs or interpretation of the scriptures were wrong. I on the other hand, have been told by many on here how I am wrong, and how my religion is false, blah blah blah. Pretty typical really, I didn't expect anything less. Bigotry is something I have dealt with my whole life, and when it comes to the Latter Day Saints, the bigots come out in full force to preach how wrong they are, and their not Christians etc. Show me once on here where I stated someones understanding of Christianity was wrong...............you wont, because it never happened.

I didn't say you did. Just pointing out there can only be one truth. Someone is not correct, we each study for ourselves, and decide. Christianity can only be Christianity. If what Christianity is, is shown thru the Bible and Jesus, then that is the "measuring stick". Some people come to the conclusion that Mormonism does not agree with what qualifies as Christianity. Some say it is Christianity. They disagree with eachother. The fact that some people say it, or answer the question when it comes up, and some don't seems to be what we are now concerned with.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Look, my posts have been nothing but respectful. I don't claim to know everything, and am opening myself up to questioning from you. I was hoping we could engage in real conversation about it, and learn from each other. I'm not attacking you, I'm bringing up my concerns. If you really do have a problem with this I can stop replying on here. I just never figured you would have a problem. Again, I'm not attacking you. If you read my post with a more calm tone you'll see that (I hope). Hope that clears anything up. I'm not trying to be arrogant.

Im not mad, however keep in mind that if you want to have an open conversation with people, making statements like, "not speaking the word of God", as if it were fact rather then an opinion is not going to win any one over. On one hand your saying to want to have open dialog with people about religion, but on the other, you are stating they are wrong, spreading false words, and need to be corrected.

see my point?

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: Im not mad, however keep in mind that if you want to have an open conversation with people, making statements like, "not speaking the word of God", as if it were fact rather then an opinion is not going to win any one over. On one hand your saying to want to have open dialog with people about religion, but on the other, you are stating they are wrong, spreading false words, and need to be corrected. see my point?

Well, in my head my opinion on what the Word says is Truth, so I'm speaking as if it is Absolute for the sake of debate. I guess I expected the same from you; to just tell me why you are right and why. I actually do have an open mind in this, but my words are "strong" because that's usually a successful debate tool.

I can see how that would come across the wrong way. I apologize, Nick.

I really want to know what you think of my concerns on both my first long post and my second. Because I think they are legitimate, and I want to know how it makes sense to you because I just don't understand it. And if you'd rather take it to PMs that's cool too but I like this as more people can jump in and talk.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: You say the Bible is clear about salvation, but then say a religion with a book saying it shows the way, is somehow wrong? If we all believe Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father excpet thru him, don't we then belive what he says in the Bible?

No, that isn't what I said.

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: It is more than just unfortunate that much religion gets mixed into becoming a Christian and what Christianity is. We should be very cautious when ANY belief system claims that 'their' book is necessary or 'their' doctrines and dogma are required for salvation.

Do you understand that I meant that we should be cautious of even those who follow Biblical teachings? If so, perhaps my statement wasn't clear enough.

The Bible makes God's plan for salvation quite clear. There is NOTHING we need to add to it.

Further, 'it' isn't even necessary for salvation.
Abraham didn't have the Bible. Moses didn't have the Bible.
Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

God spoke to man that we might know of Him and His dealing with us; that we might know the history of His people and the results of their not following His word. He had His word recorded that the message of salvation might be spread to the world. We just should NOT add to it or require more than He requires for us to know Him or to live for Him (doctrines of men).

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I didn't say you did. Just pointing out there can only be one truth. Someone is not correct, we each study for ourselves, and decide. Christianity can only be Christianity. If what Christianity is, is shown thru the Bible and Jesus, then that is the "measuring stick". Some people come to the conclusion that Mormonism does not agree with what qualifies as Christianity. Some say it is Christianity. They disagree with eachother. The fact that some people say it, or answer the question when it comes up, and some don't seems to be what we are now concerned with.

I heard a man say the other day they loved Glenn Beck, but then they heard he was Mormon, and they had to purge them self of anything he said. This man's biased and misguided beliefs against the the LDS church was so strong, he felt he could not approve of Beck, even though nothing Beck had said he disagreed with. This is pretty sad. By the way, Glenn Beck and his whole family converted to the church after searching extensively. They went to many churches, but he said the LDS faith just felt right for them, and thats where they decided to go.

The Merriam Webster dictionary states the following for the definition of a Christian :" one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"

This has been the understanding of a Christian for a long time. Latter Day Saint's entire faith is based around Christ, they believe in him as their savior, and follow his teachings according to their knowledge and understanding, just like other faiths practice his teachings in their own way. The methodists practice different from the Baptists, the Baptists practice different from the Catholics and so on.

These "people" who want to argue about what is and is not a Christian pretty silly. They are simply trying to change the definition of what a Christian is to fit their own world view of how it should be.Not only is is narrow minded, but its a waste of time as well. Who is man to decide who is and who is not a Christian? It is not of man to judge, it is of God, and yet we continue to have people within the Christian base to make it their life's work to destroy, libel, and slander his fellow man, not to glorify God, but rather to promote their own ideology. The sooner people realize their on the same side the better. Just because Man "A" see's the world through rose tinted glasses, and man "B" see the world through yellow tinted glasses, does that mean only one man is right in their perception? The important thing is that they both see the same thing, even if it is through different shades of color.

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: Do you understand that I meant that we should be cautious of even those who follow Biblical teachings? If so, perhaps my statement wasn't clear enough. The Bible makes God's plan for salvation quite clear. There is NOTHING we need to add to it. Further, 'it' isn't even necessary for salvation. Abraham didn't have the Bible. Moses didn't have the Bible. Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Glad to hear. Yes I misunderstood thank you for responding.
I will agree the Bible isn't necessary for salvation, as long as they way we live and what we believe agree with it.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-14-2010).]