quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes - it would be wonderful if we could just get girls to stop humping losers - but - not gonna happen. it is a reality that needs dealing with. after the fact scolding does no good.

Before the fact teaching, (and scolding) works. For people who listen and understand and care.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Before the fact teaching, (and scolding) works. For people who listen and understand and care.

it sure do

anyways, maybe we should save this for another thread, and let the OP try and get a few more on topic posts

quote Originally posted by aceman: Maybe you should reflect in the mirror and follow your words before attacking my views. Thanks for the negative! But, I don't think it will have the effects you desire.

And what words would those be? You should calm down, you're getting upset.
I don't take any of this personally, but I certainly don't want to add (significantly) to anyone's stress.

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by Alibi: Anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is that this forum tends to be very conservative and has a nasty habit of attacking anyone that doesn't agree with their opinions... and in that respect off topic isn't all that friendly a place to hang out if you dont' agree with the general consensus.

Good point, it doesn't have to be if people conduct themselves decently. Some people just have a chip on their shoulder. Some bicker like school children. I don't really like it either, but such is life.

Yeah it would be nice if this thread stayed civil.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 12-15-2009).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: And what words would those be? You should calm down, you're getting upset. I don't take any of this personally, but I certainly don't want to add (significantly) to anyone's stress.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You'll find this might change one day when you have your own child. When you see that heart beating after only a month in the ultrasound, it's pretty amazing. At 5 months, the baby was already kicking. The baby would kick, and my wife would push back, and my daughter would repeate the action. The baby wouldn't be kicking, and my wife would nudge the baby slightly... just a poke. And the baby would kick back in the same spot. This would go on for 15 minutes... There's obviously some brain function there. EDIT: I've known several liberals who have been vehemently pro-choice and for abortion. Then when they want to have a child of their own, and they go through the process, it completely changes. Their opinion usually changes, or they go to a blanket statement like: "I totally don't support it, and would NEVER want an abortion now, but... I still more or less support the right of the woman to choose... you know, as long as it's in the first trimester...."

You attacked my viewpoint all over here.

You? You get me upset? You're small potatoes to me getting upset in life.

quote Originally posted by aceman: You attacked my viewpoint all over here. You? You get me upset? You're small potatoes to me getting upset in life.

I wouldn't call it an "attack". I mean... it wasn't violent in any way. Certainly, I completely disagree with your viewpoints in every way, but I think this is called a political discussion. I'm glad you're not upset... it's not my intention, and you were looking stressed out based on your remarks.

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

Another potentially constructive thread down the tubes.

I'd actually like to hear more from rational liberals on what they believe and why. Expanding on my questions to GTFiero87, he says "I am in favor of higher taxes for the rich, and lower taxes for the middle and lower classes, as well as a supporter of big government."

The key there is what is the dividing line between rich, middle,and lower class. If you want higher taxes for the "rich" but you consider "rich" as anyone making over $20k a year, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If you define it as someone making more than $1M a year we may reach some common ground. Too often people seem to define "rich" as "anyone who make more money than they do."

What do you define as "big government?" I'm in favor of efficient and needed government, but it should be no bigger than necessary. Larger government isn't necessarily better - it has to be beneficial growth.

It's these types of positions that people argue but without really defining what we mean it's hard to agree or disagree.

I'm in favor of low unemployment, jobs available for those who want them, a fair wage, affordable school, housing, and healthcare. I'll bet most Democrats are in favor of all that, too. The differences come in how we think is the best way to achieve those goals.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-15-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Another potentially constructive thread down the tubes.

Damn shame, too.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Another potentially constructive thread down the tubes. I'd actually like to hear more from rational liberals on what they believe and why. Expanding on my questions to GTFiero87, he says "I am in favor of higher taxes for the rich, and lower taxes for the middle and lower classes, as well as a supporter of big government." The key there is what is the dividing line between rich, middle,and lower class. If you want higher taxes for the "rich" but you consider "rich" as anyone making over $20k a year, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If you define it as someone making more than $1M a year we may reach some common ground. Too often people seem to define "rich" as "anyone who make more money than they do." What do you define as "big government?" I'm in favor of efficient and needed government, but it should be no bigger than necessary. Larger government isn't necessarily better - it has to be beneficial growth. It's these types of positions that people argue but without really defining what we mean it's hard to agree or disagree. I'm in favor of low unemployment, jobs available for those who want them, a fair wage, affordable school, housing, and healthcare. I'll bet most Democrats are in favor of all that, too. The differences come in how we think is the best way to achieve those goals.

That's really the argument right there, and it's almost always based on emotions...

Many people who are upset and define the Rich as anyone who has "substantially" more money than they do, and anyone poor or disenfranchised is anyone at their level or lower.

I really don't understand where the animosity comes from. I can honestly say I've never been upset or felt ill will towards anyone who had more "stuff" than I do... or who had a nicer home, or anything else. We can harp on the fact that we're in a current recession, but it's ALWAYS been like this, even when we had 4% unemployment under Clinton and then under Bush.

I've heard the argument plenty of times before... "the price of bread is the same for everyone..." well... yeah, but so is the price of a yacht. But which one provides more upper middle class jobs?

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by Alibi: Pro-choice: yeah yeah, religious and moral issues aside, its not my choice to make for another person. Its not my morals being questioned when another women chooses to abort HER fetus. Not my decision, or anyone else's for that matter and I don't see how laws can cover a strictly moral issue.

If it was your sperm that was involved with the conception, would you feel any different?

See to me these posts in the beginning of this thread should have been posted on their own as threads. Here there are many things that get passed over, and we are told not to comment.

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: If it was your sperm that was involved with the conception, would you feel any different?

Then it would be between me and the other woman. Not me, the woman, and the government.

quote Originally posted by aceman: Could be considered a lifeform. Is it a VIABLE LIFEFORM? C'mon, now... So a scientist grows a liver from stem cells. It's a living cell. Are you calling that a lifeform? You can. You just opened the can of worms where VIABLE LIFEFORM enters into the picture.

For that matter, is a democrat a VIABLE LIFEFORM ? I mean, if one cannot feed or clothe himself or think for himself, and needs uncle sammy to shake the next guy down to put food in his mouth, is he actually VIABLE ? Or should his mother perform a "late-term abortion" on him ?

I'd switch the /sarcasm off, but I think I'll just leave it on....

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: For that matter, is a democrat a VIABLE LIFEFORM ? I mean, if one cannot feed or clothe himself or think for himself, and needs uncle sammy to shake the next guy down to put food in his mouth, is he actually VIABLE ? Or should his mother perform a "late-term abortion" on him ? I'd switch the /sarcasm off, but I think I'll just leave it on....

yes....nice stereotyping
what makes you think I cannot clothe myself? or think for myself? or feed myself? tho, I actually do suck at food preperation...

I imagine the "think for himself" part is actually VERY backwards here, being conservatives are the ones who cannot imagine how to make things better. can only look back upon single items of the past, and cherry pick the good of the past, and pretend the ugliness of the past did not exist.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes....nice stereotyping what makes you think I cannot clothe myself? or think for myself? or feed myself? tho, I actually do suck at food preperation... I imagine the "think for himself" part is actually VERY backwards here, being conservatives are the ones who cannot imagine how to make things better. can only look back upon single items of the past, and cherry pick the good of the past, and pretend the ugliness of the past did not exist.

You have to look back to learn from the past. You keep the good, and don't keep the bad.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: yes....nice stereotyping what makes you think I cannot clothe myself? or think for myself? or feed myself? tho, I actually do suck at food preperation... I imagine the "think for himself" part is actually VERY backwards here, being conservatives are the ones who cannot imagine how to make things better. can only look back upon single items of the past, and cherry pick the good of the past, and pretend the ugliness of the past did not exist.

...as opposed to that shining beacon of hope you guys have going down there in Demo-troit ? Yeah, those are the folks who know how to make things better !!

Getting back to the original post before it degenerated, my political affiliation is somewhere between the right and left. I believe in a strong national defense, the right to bear arms, fiscal responsibility for both political parties when they are in office and out of office. I won't debate abortion or any facet of it because I am against abortion but I can see a woman's viewpoint in that we are talking about her body.

We should promote home grown businesses to include manufacturing. I hate the present state where I go to WalMart or Home Despot and can't find an American made hand drill or tool.

I believe in unions and the right of collective bargaining. Wages have not kept pace with inflation over the years especially since the mid 1970s. Employers here in Colorado Springs totally screw over the worker in so many ways, I could write a book about it.(example: hire the employee for $6.50 an hour on a part time basis but work them 42-48 hours a week with no sick or annual leave)

Healthcare? I had hepatitus in 1960 and hospitalization was about $250. I made $2.20 an hour back then and didn't have the dough so the hospital opened an account for me and I paid the hospital directly. No insurance company that exists to make money was involved, no inflated procedures to milk the system and no government interference. I used the hospital as my care provider until 1962 when I reupped in the Army. Never had a need for health insurance. My Mom didn't have health insurance until she was 69, in 1978.

Wars of Liberation(Iraq)? My conservative side said Hussein had it coming because of humanitarian reasons but my liberal side said Democracies don't invade to promote democracy. Communists invade other countries to force their way on other countries. Afghanistan was warranted and should be pursued. We need a public relations campaign to get Americans behind the struggle. We don't have the money or desire for never ending wars so we need some inspired leadership in Washington and here in the hinterland but neither party has anything but a pretty face or a s*it eating grin to offer us.

I have a radical idea: We can eliminate all the debt that Bush and Obama ran up when they borrowed from the Chinese by defaulting on the payment. Tell the Chinese to go get screwed. We can consider it payment for the 8,010 Americans unaccounted for in the Korean War, the 34,600 American dead, the 180,000 American wounded, the 1,500,000 Koreans killed and maimed during the war not to mention the cost of it and our continued presence in Korea 56 years after the end. If it was that simple, I'd be all for it but I know the consequences when a country defaults on its debt.

Liberal or Conservative? As I said, I am somewhere in the middle.

Edited: I don't care if you ask questions of my views but I may not answer if if I think it might provoke a neverending argument.

[This message has been edited by starlightcoupe (edited 12-15-2009).]

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: Liberal or Conservative? As I said, I am somewhere in the middle.

You should run for something. (eventually your life, i'm sure!)

I think alot of people could get behind the ideals you expressed.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 12-15-2009).]

Actually I agree with you. But I'd welcome the consequences of defaulting on that debt. What will they do ? Refuse to keep lending more and more to a government we all wish would quit spending ? Doesn't sound too bad from where I sit...

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: Getting back to the original post before it degenerated, my political affiliation is somewhere between the right and left. I believe in a strong national defense, the right to bear arms, fiscal responsibility for both political parties when they are in office and out of office. I won't debate abortion or any facet of it because I am against abortion but I can see a woman's viewpoint in that we are talking about her body. ... Edited: I don't care if you ask questions of my views but I may not answer if if I think it might provoke a neverending argument.

Honestly, with the exception of your views on unions, you're pretty much completely a conservative, and I'm sure you could easily find fault in the union corporation too (the corruption that goes on in the union organization that's basically wasting money it gets from it's members dues).

Take it however you want, but you're really not a liberal just because you support unions. You listed about 5-6 major conservative views, and then 1 liberal view.

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: I believe in unions and the right of collective bargaining. Wages have not kept pace with inflation over the years especially since the mid 1970s. Employers here in Colorado Springs totally screw over the worker in so many ways, I could write a book about it.(example: hire the employee for $6.50 an hour on a part time basis but work them 42-48 hours a week with no sick or annual leave)

I'm not sure about Colorado Springs, but I believe in NC the labor laws state if you work more than 35 hours a week, you are classified as a full time employee.
In many cases the laws are on the books and people just don't know it. A union can be their advocate in that, but really you can do it yourself with a phone call to the Dept. of Labor.

I think most people are like you - a mix of conservative and liberal philosophies.

A question for ghost187x: When you say "liberal", are you referring to current political jargon (i.e. "leftist") or the historical sense (i.e. "classical liberal")? I ask, because I'm trying to determine if I fit the qualifications.

Thanks

quote Originally posted by OutsideGroove: I have to laugh as it seems as though when one is a liberal they hate to be questioned and hate to defend their beliefs. Why is that?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Then I realized it was not fear. No, it's not fear. Have you noticed that they do not even talk about it among themselves. That's why there is no liberal talk radio. If not fear, what then is it ? Even the Messiah will not speak to those who question him.

Even Al Gore will not debate. Granted that he is not technically a scientist yet he is skilled at the art of debate. He has debated many things of which he was not qualified. Some successfully. Many I would think since he has gotten to where he is and where he has been.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Could it be that not too far into the conversation, the name-calling begins? Some here can be pretty ruthless with those they don't agree with. Maybe some posters feel it just ain't worth it.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Because, as you said, who the hell cares?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: I care. Sometimes I care to be ruthless. I don't back down.

Boonie, I have been thinking about my reply. Because I do care. I've got a pretty good ratings bar. It is all from T/OT. Like I said, sometimes I care to be ruthless. In response.
Because I have been thinking it also occurs to me that there is nothing going on here that is not unlike life. Which is always worth it. Not lost on me is Reality TV. I find all the T/OT drama entertaining. Not that I post to entertain but, sometimes I do. Even if it might just be me I am entertaining, .

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 12-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Honestly, with the exception of your views on unions, you're pretty much completely a conservative, and I'm sure you could easily find fault in the union corporation too (the corruption that goes on in the union organization that's basically wasting money it gets from it's members dues). Take it however you want, but you're really not a liberal just because you support unions. You listed about 5-6 major conservative views, and then 1 liberal view.

as most people are - they have a mixed bag of views
it the extremists who are making the current batch of conservatives look like azzhats.
calling us "middle of the road" people hippes, claiming we are for welfare & handouts, and basicly trying to make it sound like anyone who doesnt think along their hard lines is some kind of idiots who - as shown above - cannot even dress themselves. I am mostly conservative - but - the hard liners here have made me embarressed of any views of that sort, and make me 2nd guess any conservative views. and they seem to be getting more radical all the time. why not move to the middle east where they love that conservative thinking....its a conservative haven.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ... why not move to the middle east where they love that conservative thinking....its a conservative haven.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ... it the extremists who are making the current batch of conservatives look like azzhats.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: as most people are - they have a mixed bag of views it the extremists who are making the current batch of conservatives look like azzhats. calling us "middle of the road" people hippes, claiming we are for welfare & handouts, and basicly trying to make it sound like anyone who doesnt think along their hard lines is some kind of idiots who - as shown above - cannot even dress themselves. I am mostly conservative - but - the hard liners here have made me embarressed of any views of that sort, and make me 2nd guess any conservative views. and they seem to be getting more radical all the time. why not move to the middle east where they love that conservative thinking....its a conservative haven.

What in the hell do you think a totalitarian religion-based regime has in common with the 'rightwing extremist' philosophy that our federal government should be only as large as our Constitution allows ? That just plain doesn't make sense.

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 12-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: A question for ghost187x: When you say "liberal", are you referring to current political jargon (i.e. "leftist") or the historical sense (i.e. "classical liberal")? I ask, because I'm trying to determine if I fit the qualifications. Thanks

current (leftist) hehe

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: What in the hell do you think a totalitarian religion-based regime has in common with the 'rightwing extremist' philosophy that our federal government should be only as large as our Constitution allows ? That just plain doesn't make sense.

makes as much sense as liberals are jobless hippies who cant dress themselves
that is what is wrong with this whole discussion
its tough to find a more conservative bunch than the Taliban
using broad stereotypes does nothing but polarize
single issues can be discussed
stereotyping is just ignorance

THINK FOR YOURSELVES

dont let the hardliners bully or "shame" you into thinking a certain way
my way or the highway
with us or against us
these are the calls of people serving only themselves, and using you as the tools

Most of the abusive talk I hear about "from conservatives" is from liberals talking about how evil conservatives are. They're more interested in telling each other how evil conservatives are than they are paying attention to what a conservative actually said.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Most of the abusive talk I hear about "from conservatives" is from liberals talking about how evil conservatives are. They're more interested in telling each other how evil conservatives are than they are paying attention to what a conservative actually said.

Riiiigigghhhht!

Thanks for giving me a laugh of the day!

quote Originally posted by aceman: Riiiigigghhhht! Thanks for giving me a laugh of the day!

It's only fair I should return the favor after you shared your economic vision of the future.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: as most people are - they have a mixed bag of views it the extremists who are making the current batch of conservatives look like azzhats. calling us "middle of the road" people hippes, claiming we are for welfare & handouts, and basicly trying to make it sound like anyone who doesnt think along their hard lines is some kind of idiots who - as shown above - cannot even dress themselves. I am mostly conservative - but - the hard liners here have made me embarressed of any views of that sort, and make me 2nd guess any conservative views. and they seem to be getting more radical all the time. why not move to the middle east where they love that conservative thinking....its a conservative haven.

Honestly Pyrthian... I think if you ever played Dungeons & Dragons as a kid... your alignment would probably be Chaotic Neutral... hahah... sorry, bit of nerd slipped out.

I really don't see you as a conservative, but sometimes you surprise me... usually you're just upsetting me... hah.

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by Formula88: It's only fair I should return the favor after you shared your economic vision of the future.

I did? What year was this?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: makes as much sense as liberals are jobless hippies who cant dress themselves that is what is wrong with this whole discussion its tough to find a more conservative bunch than the Taliban using broad stereotypes does nothing but polarize single issues can be discussed stereotyping is just ignorance THINK FOR YOURSELVES dont let the hardliners bully or "shame" you into thinking a certain way my way or the highway with us or against us these are the calls of people serving only themselves, and using you as the tools

I really never saw the Taliban as being all about small government or individual liberty (right of center). They seemed pretty authoritarian (left of center) to me. Maybe our definitions of 'individual liberty' differ.

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 12-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: I really never saw the Taliban as being all about small government or individual liberty (right of center). They seemed pretty authoritarian (left of center) to me. Maybe our definitions of 'individual liberty' differ.

which are single issues, and are not actually specificly "conservative" or "liberal"
conservative is conservative - and you dont get much more conservative than folk who have changed little since Christ walked the earth.
YOU are liberal compared to them. we ALL are. well, most of us.

you are mixing "conservative" with "Libertarian"
Not the same thing.

quote Originally posted by ghost187x: current (leftist) hehe

roger, wilco...

(unlike some others who have participated in this thread, I will politely refrain from comment)

... over and out

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: which are single issues, and are not actually specificly "conservative" or "liberal" conservative is conservative - and you dont get much more conservative than folk who have changed little since Christ walked the earth. YOU are liberal compared to them. we ALL are. well, most of us. you are mixing "conservative" with "Libertarian" Not the same thing.

Big centralized government (left) vs small decentralized government (right) is not a single issue; more like the central philosophy from which everry other view flows. (Except for the Repub party's hangup with Christianity specifically; I really don't get that one from a philosophical standpoint). But you are correct, my own views are more libertarian than anything else. I generally vote republican, as they are much closer to my own views than today's extreme leftwing "dem" party.

IMO they used to be an American institution, but have been hijacked by these backward messed-up neo-liberals who neither understand nor care about how to maintain an environment in which citizens can succeed or fail on their own merits. Heck, you've mentioned how unmotivated the natives in your area are; and how you'd trade the locals for illegal aliens anyday. How do you think they got that unmotivated ? Why do you think employers avoid Michigan like the plague ? If work's so hard to find in the dirty D, why do you figure people don't just move somewhere where there is work to be had ?

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 12-16-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: conservative cold/rich/ugly is conservative cold/rich/ugly - and you dont get much more conservative colder/richer/uglier than folk ....

Fixed that for you.
Dumb is dumb and you don't get dumber than ...
Knock knock. Hello ?