Originally posted by fierobear: WRONG. Obama and the others in that video said that EVENTUALLY they want "single payer", which means no private insurance.
health care has many levels, and I expect that things like Boner Pills & Artificial Pregancy are going to be private only kind of items.
and, again - who cares whether insurance exists or not? they produce NOTHING. if we do not care about productive jobs, WTF should we care about non-productive jobs? and, of course, dont get why would anyone prefer deductables, co-pays, referalls & reimbursements over just taking care of the problem. Tho, I am endlessly amused by the idea that having this liberal thought means I get it for free, while everyone else must pay for it. can you please hand me the form to fill out to do this?
Conn, that survey was brought up before, it is unclear and skewed beyond belief. It seemed to show that the majority of doctors did not want Obamas plan if I remeber correctly. Here's the thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/068218.html
"When polled, "nearly three-quarters of physicians supported some form of a public option, either alone or in combination with private insurance options,"
Some form? But not Obama's plan?
FieroSTS wrote: "it looks like only 10% support a public only option. 63% a combination like we currently have."
Again with the studies and polls always being discounted when it doesn't fit your agenda.
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01:16 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Again with the studies and polls always being discounted when it doesn't fit your agenda.
I only discount them when they are flawed. In fact, most polls are flawed, but when you structure your questions to favor a specific outcome, the poll is then flawed.
I only discount them when they are flawed. In fact, most polls are flawed, but when you structure your questions to favor a specific outcome, the poll is then flawed.
No you only discount them when you don;t like the outcomes. How can you debate without a set of facts to agree on. Polls, studies, statements everything is always discounted and reexplained when you don't agree. I'm not referring to just you, it's a lot of folks here.
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01:21 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
No you only discount them when you don;t like the outcomes. How can you debate without a set of facts to agree on. Polls, studies, statements everything is always discounted and reexplained when you don't agree. I'm not referring to just you, it's a lot of folks here.
Yes, and people don't usually argue with things they agree with either. Your point? I can see the flaws. I can see the twists they made just like Jakispyder said. I'm sure you know all of our motives. Way to blow off opposition, did you learn that from Obama?
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01:40 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
HOORAY!!!! A politician who tells it like it is. I'm glad I worked to get him elected. I'll send him a thank you for having the cojones to make his candid, insightful ( if somewhat irreverent) comment. He's doing exactly what we elected him to do: Shaking up the establishment.
He may be shaking up the establishment, but he is going about it the wrong way. People were very upset when Joe Wilson yelled "you lie" at Obama and this behavior isn't any better. Not apologizing just makes things worse. At least Joe Wison had the balls to apologize for what he did, while Alan Grayson won't. Do two wrongs make a right? I didn't think so. Maybe he too should be scrutinized and penalized like Wilson was. Partisan politics will never help our country and only serve to divide us. One can't just blindly follow what their party says is right, unless they want to be mislead. Spending the money of the next few generations on programs that don't work is not the solution. Forcing Americans to pay for something most don't want is not the answer either. We need reform, but not the one government is trying to ram down our throats. Once they add all their pork to a bil,l it is something that is rife for corruption and we get stuck with the short end of the stick. If enough people are unhappy with this they will try to prevent it. Our politicians better take their blinders off and listen to what the people want or they will be out during the next elections.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 10-02-2009).]
Yes, and people don't usually argue with things they agree with either. Your point? I can see the flaws. I can see the twists they made just like Jakispyder said. I'm sure you know all of our motives. Way to blow off opposition, did you learn that from Obama?
Right, you can "see" the "twists". Very convincing reasoned argument. Pathetic. Good thing you aren't a lawyer, conjecture will get you nowhere.
Conjecture: 2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
there is always the "next level" for those who want a bit more than "the common man"
And, according to the plan, that "next level" known as cadillac plans, will be taxed heavily, both on the issuing side and on the beneficiary side.
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but, the real Q is: being insurance is actually a non-productive industry - does it really matter? it produces NOTHING. why would we care about protecting non-productive jobs, when we dont care about protecting productive jobs?
Are you really this dumb?
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01:51 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Right, you can "see" the "twists". Very convincing reasoned argument. Pathetic. Good thing you aren't a lawyer, conjecture will get you nowhere.
Conjecture: 2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
Well, since it was all laid out for you in the older thread I linked, which you actually posted in, and quoted the link back to me.... I thought why waste my time.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-02-2009).]
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01:59 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Anyone who is not biased can see the poll is faulty. Of course, you can't see that, because you are blinded by hope and change... good thing you aren't a lawyer.
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Originally posted by connecticutFIERO:
Right, you can "see" the "twists". Very convincing reasoned argument. Pathetic. Good thing you aren't a lawyer, conjecture will get you nowhere.
Conjecture: 2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
He was there. He defended NPR as being credible. Even when I pointed out NPR's own users could not believe NPR has not covered the ACORN scandal.
NPR = fair and balanced? Right.... more like left.... left wing! All you have to do is listen to their programming and their news. Of course, if you believe in hope and change as defined by Obama... you can't see anything.
Anyone who is not biased can see the poll is faulty. Of course, you can't see that, because you are blinded by hope and change... good thing you aren't a lawyer.
That makes no sense, the data is from a reliable source. You have no evidence to the contrary.
NPR = fair and balanced? Right.... more like left.... left wing! All you have to do is listen to their programming and their news. Of course, if you believe in hope and change as defined by Obama... you can't see anything.
Oh please. Only Fox is trustworthy right?
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02:06 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Come on John, that's an internet news website poll. A real polling organization will most likely do a real poll on him soon, we won't have long to wait. But his district is majority Democrat so he's probably safe.
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02:12 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
No. He is making a valid point if you only want to isolate the issue to economics.
Providing health care to a population via insurance is ONLY economically beneficial if it is isolated to CURRENT WORKERS. I suppose you could make a case that it would also be economically viable to provide it to children (FUTURE workers).
On a strictly macro-economic level, providing health care does NOT produce anything for an economy. What it DOES is it allows a healthier and therefore more productive WORKFORCE to go out and WORK in PRODUCTIVE jobs. So that is why it is only STRICTLY ECONOMICALLY beneficial to a population to provide insurance TO WORKERS.
If you provide health insurance and health care to NON-workers, it is purely a cost item with no economic return. I'm sure you didn't pick up on it that way because our current context wasn't a strictly economic conversation. regarding connecticutFiero and his assertion of not "very convincing reasoned argument", I have answered EVERY issue brought up with reason, logic, and substantiation. I don't expect him to agree with it, but at least MAYBE HE could give a reasoned, logical, substantiated counter-viewpoint. Instead of that, he just worships unquestionedly at the feet of polls and "research". No examination of potential bias. No examination of study-construct flaw. Nope. Just, these experts said it and I believe it. Because they are "experts".
OK. So I get put in a position to trot out my level of expertise, which usually exceeds those of the "experts". So. Why no bowing before MY resume? Why do you discount the survery the cliffw presented?
Ultimately in a game of who's got the bigger resume it SHOULD come down to, ok, conjecture all you want, who has REALLY DONE IT.
MY organization HAS DONE IT for the past 8 years. Harvard hasn't. NPR hasn't. Robert Wood Foundation. Obama hasn't done anything more efficiently and less costly. By what stretch of reality can anyone claim the US government does it. And yet somehow YOU believe THOSE clowns are going to be able to do it. And yet you don't listen to people actually involved in decision making that HAS DONE IT.
Ok. Fine. Live in your fantasy world. But let REAL people and groups with REAL solutions that are REALLY DOING it alone, and don't support a government that has ZERO CLUE about what it is doing get A FOOT in the door and ruin this part of the country.
And about my "foot in the door" theory. Did you READ anything about what Van Jones had been promoting? Did you LISTEN to Barack Obama's NPR interview from 2001?
Democrat or republican, liberal or conservative. Those are supposed to be adjectives describing the range of CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC supporters.
It is NOT supposed to be someone who spent years educating himself on constitutional law to TRY TO FIND WAYS TO CIRCUMVENT the constitutional democratic republic process in order to IMPLEMENT SOCIALISM. And THAT is who you voted for and support.
Oh, no he isn't. Yeah, then what happened with the banks? Uh, but, but, well, he HAD to. It was a CRISIS. Yeah, then what happened with the automotive industry? He had no intention of owning a car company. Yet he does. Uh, but, but, well, he HAD to. It was a CRISIS. Well, but that is socialism and we live in a constitutional democratic republic. But, but, it was a CRISIS.
And now we get to health care. Uh, but, but, well, THAT is a CRISIS, too. Oh yeah. I forgot. Because I CAN'T KEEP STRAIGHT WHICH CRISIS IT IS. Is it the "health care costs too much crisis"?? Or is it the "we need universal coverage crisis" crisis? I can't keep track because IT KEEPS CHANGING.
Well, when you are an avowed socialist, it doesn't MATTER which non-crisis it is. As long as I can get enough people to GIVE UP their constitutional democratic republic rights to my socialism, it doesn't matter.
Seriously, you need to grow up and get over your emotionalism and your blinding partisanship and actually use the solid intellect you have in your head to think beyond your next health insurance premium and beyond 2010, and decide if you are a consitutional american or a socialist.
Now I'm unamerican. OK I get it. You're logical and well reasoned, and I'm emotional. You accept unverified studies and data, but not verified studies and data. Sure FL, that's reasonable. If only I could be more reasonable by your definition. I would ignore all the data and disregard my colleagues opinions and claim to be the true American while all the rest are socialists.
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02:29 PM
rpro Member
Posts: 2920 From: Rockledge, FL Registered: Jun 2006
Saying you are unamerican has an implication that you don't love the country. I don't question that.
My question is whether you believe in the constitutional system of a democratic republic, or if you want to be a socialist republic. If you want to be part of a socialist republic, then by our constitutional definition, you are unamerican.
I didn't have to give you unverified studies. I gave you DOCUMENTED, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. WAY PAST the study part.
You just THINK my colleagues regard the "data" from a biased OBSERVATIONAL study with faulty study construct criteria (the Harvard 44,789 people die yearly study).
Again, you are twitterpated by academia and their "research", to the point of you disregarding not THEORY but ACTUAL DOCUMENTED REALITY.
But, but, but...they are the EXPERTS.
Yeah. Academicians. Have to love them. Here is the truism: (Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.) Yeah. It is a generalization.
You have a trust issue. Do you trust those that TALK about what will happen? Or do you trust those that are actually out there DOING it?
You've got the proof. I've not been able to identify from your posts why you can't see it or accept it other than your starry eyed fascination with academic titles. Which is a shame, really, because it is obvious you have excellent intellect.
No. He is making a valid point if you only want to isolate the issue to economics.
Providing health care to a population via insurance is ONLY economically beneficial if it is isolated to CURRENT WORKERS. I suppose you could make a case that it would also be economically viable to provide it to children (FUTURE workers).
On a strictly macro-economic level, providing health care does NOT produce anything for an economy. What it DOES is it allows a healthier and therefore more productive WORKFORCE to go out and WORK in PRODUCTIVE jobs.
Yes, it's a valid question, but not when as narrowly targeted as he has done. Insurance is part of the service sector. So are airline pilots, Doctors, IT personell, air traffic controllers, internet security, law enforcement, firefighters, and everyone else who doesn't produce a product from raw materials you can physically hold in your hand at the end of a work day. None of those produce anything other than jobs and a service. Let's get rid of them!! He's just trolling for attention as usual.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-02-2009).]
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02:47 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by frontal lobe: Saying you are unamerican has an implication that you don't love the country. I don't question that.
My question is whether you believe in the constitutional system of a democratic republic, or if you want to be a socialist republic. If you want to be part of a socialist republic, then by our constitutional definition, you are unamerican. ......
if you were educated in the public schools - you already participated in a socialist republic. if you were in the armed services - the same + received g'ment health care it seems silly to call those who served unamerican. it would seem the very opposite would be true.
just like the above examples of things everyone uses, everyone pays for, and the benifits are unquantifiable, they eventually become to burdensome to handle privately.
to me, this whole thing all boils down to insurance companies being the root of the problem. I find NOTHING wrong with the health care system. Its as good as it can be. It is that layer in between.
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02:59 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Come on John, that's an internet news website poll. A real polling organization will most likely do a real poll on him soon, we won't have long to wait. But his district is majority Democrat so he's probably safe.
This poll is from the local cable news channel that probably 90% of the residents here view. It also happens to be in his district. If he doesn't change his act and fly straight, I know I won't be voting for him again.
if you were educated in the public schools - you already participated in a socialist republic. if you were in the armed services - the same + received g'ment health care it seems silly to call those who served unamerican. it would seem the very opposite would be true.
just like the above examples of things everyone uses, everyone pays for, and the benifits are unquantifiable, they eventually become to burdensome to handle privately.
to me, this whole thing all boils down to insurance companies being the root of the problem. I find NOTHING wrong with the health care system. Its as good as it can be. It is that layer in between.
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He's just trolling for attention as usual.
I rest my case.
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03:02 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Pyrthian: if you were educated in the public schools - you already participated in a socialist republic. if you were in the armed services - the same + received g'ment health care
, you and I have been through this before. An educated populace benefits the whole country. The armed services benefit the whole country. You being healthy does not benefit me one bit.
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Originally posted by Pyrthian: ... just like the above examples of things everyone uses, everyone pays for, and the benifits are unquantifiable, they eventually become to burdensome to handle privately.
Hmm, 15 million out of 300 million people are doing ok with health care, yet you say it is too hard to handle privately.
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03:05 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by cliffw: you and I have been through this before. An educated populace benefits the whole country. The armed services benefit the whole country. You being healthy does not benefit me one bit..
so, nat'l health care only takes care of me, eh? wow - thanks how does me being educated benifit you? how does me being protected by the peoples army benifit you? "An educated populace benefits the whole country. The armed services benefit the whole country. the whole country being healthy does not benefit me one bit" would be more contextualy accurate - compare against me or compare against "the whole country"
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Originally posted by cliffw: Hmm, 15 million out of 300 million people are doing ok with health care, yet you say it is too hard to handle privately.
Originally posted by Pyrthian: them really aint that good of numbers
You got some ? The Obamanation said 50 Million did not have health care. When we removed the 20 million illegals, we are down to 30 million. Lets take away 20 million for the young folk who don't want to pay for insurance. Hmm, your right. Ten million out of 300 million is a good enough reason to go socialist, .
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03:40 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by cliffw: You got some ? The Obamanation said 50 Million did not have health care. When we removed the 20 million illegals, we are down to 30 million. Lets take away 20 million for the young folk who don't want to pay for insurance. Hmm, your right. Ten million out of 300 million is a good enough reason to go socialist, .
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Originally posted by cliffw: Hmm, 15 million out of 300 million people are doing ok with health care, yet you say it is too hard to handle privately.:.
no, sure dont - just the first time the numbers were backwards, implying only 15 out of 300 are doing OK
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03:47 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Saying you are unamerican has an implication that you don't love the country. I don't question that.
My question is whether you believe in the constitutional system of a democratic republic, or if you want to be a socialist republic. If you want to be part of a socialist republic, then by our constitutional definition, you are unamerican.
I didn't have to give you unverified studies. I gave you DOCUMENTED, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. WAY PAST the study part.
You just THINK my colleagues regard the "data" from a biased OBSERVATIONAL study with faulty study construct criteria (the Harvard 44,789 people die yearly study).
Again, you are twitterpated by academia and their "research", to the point of you disregarding not THEORY but ACTUAL DOCUMENTED REALITY.
But, but, but...they are the EXPERTS.
Yeah. Academicians. Have to love them. Here is the truism: (Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.) Yeah. It is a generalization.
You have a trust issue. Do you trust those that TALK about what will happen? Or do you trust those that are actually out there DOING it?
You've got the proof. I've not been able to identify from your posts why you can't see it or accept it other than your starry eyed fascination with academic titles. Which is a shame, really, because it is obvious you have excellent intellect.
This
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04:56 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35468 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
What a retarded poll. "answers are still coming in"?!?! Who publishes that? They haven't even finished conducting the poll, but they'll publish the results anyway?
You have got to be kidding me. This is what you're going to hang your hat on - the results of a poll that didn't even list the number of responses they received from the thousand or so mailings then goes on to admit they're not even done conducting the poll. This is as stupid as posting an internet poll.
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Originally posted by cliffw:
He was there. He defended NPR as being credible. Even when I pointed out NPR's own users could not believe NPR has not covered the ACORN scandal.
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12:00 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Jeremiah: What a retarded poll. "answers are still coming in"?!?! Who publishes that? They haven't even finished conducting the poll, but they'll publish the results anyway?
Seek and ye shall find. 'Cept it does not seem like liberals like to honestly seek. I questioned your findings. I also questioned my own findings. That poll was conducted by IBD/TIPP. Who also most closely predicted the results of the McCain/Obama Presidential campaign. I said closely. It was exactly.
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Election: Now that the '08 tally is official, we note that for the second election in a row, the IBD/TIPP Poll not only came closest to the final margin, but was right on the money— tantamount to hitting a bullet with a bullet.
Tantamount to hitting a bullet with a bullet.
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Results certified over the weekend show Barack Obama got 52.9% of the popular vote vs. 45.7% for John McCain. The difference — 7.2 percentage points — is exactly what IBD/TIPP predicted just hours before polls opened Nov. 4.
IBD/TIPP also most closely predicted the winner of the Bush/Kerry Presidential campaign.
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Four years ago, IBD/TIPP was also most accurate in predicting the final margin, pegging it at 2.1 points vs. the 2.4 that actually separated George W. Bush from John F. Kerry.
The reason numbers are still coming in is because it is a tracking poll. Tracking polls, such as IBD/TIPP's, poll every day and typically average results over a three-day period. Meaning that they do not accept their numbers as fact, just as the latest fact. Nontracking polls survey less frequently. IBD/TIPP Takes Top Honors Again Now, a poll, by itself, does not tell the whole story. The article I lifted that poll from was just one in a series of eight articles. Perhaps you would like to read all eight. Or, do you just listen to lying politicians and partisan hack news outlets ?
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 10-03-2009).]
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12:40 AM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
"I think that people deserve a congressman who is going to say it like it is… and we've needed that for so long," Grayson said. "We need somebody who has the guts to tell the truth. The reason that people have reacted the way they did is not because I said something controversial. It's because I said something that has been on people's minds for months. And I just happened to be the one who said it," he said.
Reacting to accusations that his comments were an attention-grabbing ploy, Grayson said, "That's ridiculous. I'm fighting for people's lives here."
Grayson said that the response to his congressional statement has been positive and that he received 5,000 new contributions in the last 48 hours. Video : here
I just want to, in Wishitwas' words, rub this guys butt.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 10-03-2009).]
