quote Originally posted by fierobear: You sure you just didn't notice? Because *everyone* got a tax break under Bush's tax cuts. By the way, it's not my opinion...it's a fact.

Not everyone just those that paid taxes, I recall getting two tax cuts, and two refund checks other than my year end refund checks under Bush, but I have been paying taxes sense 1976.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: The conclusion: Dr. Holdren is not going to be Obama's economics adviser. I know a lot of scientists. Indeed, I am one, and I can say with fair certainty they're all slightly cracked, they're mostly left leaning and they've all got opinions that, at times, can be extreme. None of this, however, impacts Holdren's ability to do science, as he has been a leader in his field and a cheerleader for scientific advancement. So, in short, I don't care about his opinions on ecological development in the 1970's or his views on the cost of metals in the 1980's...

Jeremiah,
I understand your comment on Holdren's opinions on ecological development in the 1970's or his views on the cost of metals in the 1980's. Where I don't agree is that although I won't suggest that Dr. Holdren isn't a very intelligent person, you can't make me believe that a scientist can't and doesn't intrepret and manipulate his/her research to try and prove the theory promoted by the researcher. Empirical research should result in empirical data that stands alone and needs little intrepretation. In Dr. Holden's case, it appears his credability is somewhat questionable based on his previous positions. But, I digress from the original topic, what was it again?

Ron

quote Originally posted by fierobear: New York Times commentary on John Holdren... Flawed Science Advice for Obama? Does being spectacularly wrong about a major issue in your field of expertise hurt your .........much stuff.......... science advisor you think Dr. Holdren would make?

while the story is true, you must also take into account the fact that there have been many changes between when that bet was made, and when it was finished.
recycling being the BIG one

the future is a funny place

At what point do you know your science was wrong? When a new believeable one comes along I guess?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Joke I received: Dear President Obama, Thank you for helping my neighbors with their mortgage payments. You know the one's down the street who, in the good times, refinanced their house several times and went on vacations to wonderful places, bought SUV's, ATV's, a new RV, installed a pool, a big screen TV, two Wave Runners and a Harley. I was wondering, since I am paying my mortgage and now, theirs, could you arrange for me to borrow the Harley now and then? Sincerely, Benjamin Dover P.S. They also need help with their credit cards, when do you want me to start making those payments? P.P.S. I almost forgot - they didn't file their income tax return this year. Should I go ahead and file for them or will you be appointing them to cabinet posts?

Wish I could laugh. It's very funny....but it's all too real.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: At what point do you know your science was wrong? When a new believeable one comes along I guess?

one of the fun things about science
all of it eventually is wrong
some people's mentality just cannot handle the fact that things change

anyways - wandering way O/T

and - yes - I did not vote for Obama - but I am glad he won.
only because it is endlessly amusing watching so many self important people squirm & whine

This is better than Pay-per-View & On-Demand put together

You didn't get a stimulus check?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: My taxes did not change under Bush.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - yes - I did not vote for Obama - but I am glad he won. only because it is endlessly amusing watching so many self important people squirm & whine This is better than Pay-per-View & On-Demand put together

Unless they are squirming because they think freedom, this country and the people in it are important, which is my point of view.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Unless they are squirming because they think freedom, this country and the people in it are important, which is my point of view.

well, I assume this is another jab, implying we will be Russia, circa 1970's

sorry - you guys are scaring me as much as the Global Warming crowd scared me
and the Y2K's

at least the Y2K's had some basis.....and a VERY distinct deadline

It isn't a jab. It is why many are squirming. I don't care what color the president is, or if he calls himself a democrat, it is the actual things he does and believes is right that bother me. Much more important when he makes sweeping changes based on those things I disagree with. We all see it differently, but I am being sincere.

I think the leaders are happy to have a general public that assumes the best, and trusts open heartedly. Much easier that way.

It is hard for me to post a reply, Jeremiah, because I really appreciate hearing at least how one voter is seeing thing. And I don't want you to feel ganged up on because that really isn't my intent.

Your view on the Holdren appointment, for example. You mention his VERY strong history of being wrong doesn't impact his ability to do science because he "has been a leader in his field and a cheerleader for scientific advancement."

Well, neither of those roles is really what the science advisor to the president is looking for. Or should be. Obama is trying to make POLICY. As in, FUTURE policy direction for his term in office. As Obama tries to take us in a direction, he is looking for his science ADVISOR to advise him on how science will effect the outcome of his policies.

Well, Holdren HAS a track record of looking at science and projecting where things will go. And his record is one of spectacular failure and being wrong.

So for me to be impressed because he is a "leader in his field."...well, I'm really not. Because his record of leading is into ERROR.

And regarding being a cheerleader for scientific advancement, that is really not what Obama is looking for in the position, and Holdren is hardly the only person in the country that can do that.

And as far as scientists being slightly cracked and left leaning to the extreme, well, that MAY (but really often does) not impact his ability to do science, but it WILL have an impact on his advising of Obama.


I know you have taken a "wait and see" approach to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Well, he names a science advisor with a DOCUMENTED, HORRENDOUS ability to apply science to the future (and he just won't be advising on his own specific area of science, btw, so I DO care about his opinions on ecological development and cost of metals.).
He names someone to treasury secretary who is a DOCUMENTED tax cheat, AND documented failed in supervising banks in his previous job.

I'm not questioning you. I'm just trying to figure out what threshold of incompetence it takes to surrender the benefit. Because these two examples cannot be written off to partisan nit-picking. These are substantive, disqualifying performance records that Obama yet appointed.

More food for thought.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: You didn't get a stimulus check? John Stricker

He couldn't see it, because it had Bush's signature.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and - yes - I did not vote for Obama - but I am glad he won. only because it is endlessly amusing watching so many self important people squirm & whine This is better than Pay-per-View & On-Demand put together

Who are you referring to that is squirming and self important? All the people that have lost their jobs because the companies they work for have no confidence in the president or the economy, and the sharp down turn in the economy since he took office has made the people that have the money too fearful to invest in anything? Well isn’t that nice. I will say there have been a few days when the market has not fallen but just a few. I do not think you or all the other people for the Obomination can see the forest through the trees so to speak. The way it works is when the people that have most of the money see they have more to lose than to gain by investing in anything they all pull the plug on all of their endeavors. This means businesses like news papers, printing companies, engineering and mining and many other companies cut way back because the investors cannot or will not take the risk with their money. This means no new clients and the ones you have cut back spending so much you cannot keep half of your staff or in some cases none of your staff and you have no choice but to shut down the company all together. Where I live we have seen a huge rise in unemployment in last few months in all areas not just the so called rich or over paid.
In case you did not notice or you never watch the news, the new massive spending bill has bailed out the insurance companies and banks and their cohorts and has done nothing to curb the rising unemployment or help the small businesses.

It is nice to see that someone is amused and entertained by all the Americans that have lost their jobs, I was not aware that the suffering of your fellow Americans was so amusing that it could be better than anything on pay-per-view or on-Demand. Maybe if they start showing children being hit and by cars or whole families being evicted and put out on the street on pay-per-view you might think that pay-per-view is better again.

quote Originally posted by Christine: Who are you referring to that is squirming and self important? All the people that have lost their jobs because the companies they work for have no confidence in the president or the economy, and the sharp down turn in the economy since he took office has made the people that have the money too fearful to invest in anything? Well isn’t that nice. I will say there have been a few days when the market has not fallen but just a few. I do not think you or all the other people for the Obomination can see the forest through the trees so to speak. The way it works is when the people that have most of the money see they have more to lose than to gain by investing in anything they all pull the plug on all of their endeavors. This means businesses like news papers, printing companies, engineering and mining and many other companies cut way back because the investors cannot or will not take the risk with their money. This means no new clients and the ones you have cut back spending so much you cannot keep half of your staff or in some cases none of your staff and you have no choice but to shut down the company all together. Where I live we have seen a huge rise in unemployment in last few months in all areas not just the so called rich or over paid. In case you did not notice or you never watch the news, the new massive spending bill has bailed out the insurance companies and banks and their cohorts and has done nothing to curb the rising unemployment or help the small businesses. It is nice to see that someone is amused and entertained by all the Americans that have lost their jobs, I was not aware that the suffering of your fellow Americans was so amusing that it could be better than anything on pay-per-view or on-Demand. Maybe if they start showing children being hit and by cars or whole families being evicted and put out on the street on pay-per-view you might think that pay-per-view is better again.

lol
see what I mean?
so, the economy which we in Detroit have been enjoying for years, has finally reached you......
this horse crap has been brewing for years
it is 100% corporate greed which caused this - no president, no congress, no senate, no war, no socialist - 100% corporate greed

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: it is 100% corporate greed which caused this - no president, no congress, no senate, no war, no socialist - 100% corporate greed

Not 100%. The mess affecting us is no fall out from Michigan either. Our elected officials very much helped facilitate the mess. Democrats to point a finger. Which political party has had control over your state ? Which political party felt that those who could not afford homes should be able to get loans ?

What about this theory I hear about congress passing things some years ago making financial institutions take on sub prime loans out of fairness to poor people? Not real?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Not 100%. The mess affecting us is no fall out from Michigan either. Our elected officials very much helped facilitate the mess. Democrats to point a finger. Which political party has had control over your state ? Which political party felt that those who could not afford homes should be able to get loans ?

no, it is not fallout - but it is from the same cause
having our manufacturing done in asia
yes - 100%
loans may have created some trouble for some banks, but have very little overall impact on joblessness
and, explain how republicans would have kept manufacturing inside the USA

quote Originally posted by Christine: Who are you referring to that is squirming and self important? All the people that have lost their jobs because the companies they work for have no confidence in the president or the economy, and the sharp down turn in the economy since he took office has made the people that have the money too fearful to invest in anything? Well isn’t that nice. I will say there have been a few days when the market has not fallen but just a few. I do not think you or all the other people for the Obomination can see the forest through the trees so to speak. The way it works is when the people that have most of the money see they have more to lose than to gain by investing in anything they all pull the plug on all of their endeavors. This means businesses like news papers, printing companies, engineering and mining and many other companies cut way back because the investors cannot or will not take the risk with their money. This means no new clients and the ones you have cut back spending so much you cannot keep half of your staff or in some cases none of your staff and you have no choice but to shut down the company all together. Where I live we have seen a huge rise in unemployment in last few months in all areas not just the so called rich or over paid. In case you did not notice or you never watch the news, the new massive spending bill has bailed out the insurance companies and banks and their cohorts and has done nothing to curb the rising unemployment or help the small businesses. It is nice to see that someone is amused and entertained by all the Americans that have lost their jobs, I was not aware that the suffering of your fellow Americans was so amusing that it could be better than anything on pay-per-view or on-Demand. Maybe if they start showing children being hit and by cars or whole families being evicted and put out on the street on pay-per-view you might think that pay-per-view is better again.

Yeah, well... you know how we Michigan idiots like our government. And the majority of the rest of the US voters were so jealous of our crumbling ghost town of a state, they chose to emulate Michigan's government so they can be more like us.

Want a tip ? Invest in comapnies that own upstart garbage dumps. Garbage disposal is our new leading growth industry... There's great money in providing Ontario with a place to dispose of their garbage. Just think, our country could handle the garbage of the entire world !! Now that's prosperity !!!!

------------------
Hey America,

[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 03-25-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol see what I mean? so, the economy which we in Detroit have been enjoying for years, has finally reached you...... this horse crap has been brewing for years it is 100% corporate greed which caused this - no president, no congress, no senate, no war, no socialist - 100% corporate greed

That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. You LIVE in Michigan! How can I know more about Michigan politics than you? And on the heels of that enormous revelation, how can you be so hubristic in your conclusions despite not knowing s***!?

FYI, Michigan's economy began tanking within months of Jenny Granholm and her liberal Assembly taking charge. She raised personal income tax, corporate income tax, payroll tax, and sales tax! And despite this (or because of this is you actually understand economics) state revenues went DOWN! Michigan state employees make MORE money per capita than ANY OTHER STATE employee in America, and yet YOU and your fellow state citizens make one of the WORST average wages in America! Jenny forced every employer in the state to outsource. With insane taxes and out of control EPA regulations what is a business left to do?

NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE GM'S FAULT!

wise-up.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 03-25-2009).]

corporate greed? You mean the same ones that made many modern technologies possible? I would think that any sane person would want to get more out of something than they put into it, I know i sure do.

Let me see if I got this right. 17000 members, of which I estimate half never go into OT.

So out of 8500 people, 3 people in this thread ( I apologize if I missed someone) will admit that they voted for Obama, and one was just kidding.

I have immense respect for the people that have posted, it takes courage to walk into the lions den and try to spray breath spray in his mouth. More people should be like you guys, well most, the one spiteful vote was probably what cost me MY candidate lol. Thanks Pokey LoL

All in fun guys, just trying to break up the boredom a little at 2:30ish am

Brad

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quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Let me see if I got this right. 17000 members, of which I estimate half never go into OT. Brad

About 1/4 of those are probably 'inactive'. Maybe a much higher rate of 'absenteeism than that.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. You LIVE in Michigan! How can I know more about Michigan politics than you? And on the heels of that enormous revelation, how can you be so hubristic in your conclusions despite not knowing s***!? FYI, Michigan's economy began tanking within months of Jenny Granholm and her liberal Assembly taking charge. She raised personal income tax, corporate income tax, payroll tax, and sales tax! And despite this (or because of this is you actually understand economics) state revenues went DOWN! Michigan state employees make MORE money per capita than ANY OTHER STATE employee in America, and yet YOU and your fellow state citizens make one of the WORST average wages in America! Jenny forced every employer in the state to outsource. With insane taxes and out of control EPA regulations what is a business left to do? NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE GM'S FAULT! wise-up.

state revenues went down for ONE reason: the auto industry failing
the "big three" are Michigans bread & butter
I agree Granholm should have been on all fours sucking off the big three to keep 'em going & profitable
but there is no way she could have prevented the move to asia for the nations manufacturing

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ..... but there is no way she could have prevented the move to asia for the nations manufacturing

Nope. Not while she was down on all fours sucking off Big Union to get campaign funds/votes.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Nope. Not while she was down on all fours sucking off Big Union to get campaign funds/votes.

Now there's an image I'm having a hard time getting out of my head.

Ron

This is funny and pathetic but mostly funny. I admit I did cry a little when I realized it was true but I just said it was tears from laughing.

http://www.theonion.com/con...win_causes_obsessive

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: state revenues went down for ONE reason: the auto industry failing the "big three" are Michigans bread & butter I agree Granholm should have been on all fours sucking off the big three to keep 'em going & profitable but there is no way she could have prevented the move to asia for the nations manufacturing

Yes she could. The first thing she could have done was NOT raise Payroll and Corporate taxes to record levels. Nice little knife in the back. Secondly, she could have held the Unions to account. THEY are the real evil here. You complain about jobs going overseas? Well do the math! If you can hire come guy in China for $20/day versus $20/hour in the US to do the same job plus benefits, plus this, and plus that, it is a no brainer. As long as the government cow tows to the unions then jobs will evaporate. Get used to it. Thirdly, She could have incentivized the auto makers to expand local business by reducing corporate and payroll taxes, not to mention state property and excise taxes. She could have given them breaks on water, sewerage, and other state run utilities. She could have negotiated with other states and nations on behalf of the auto industry to buy American cars, etc etc etc. There were a thousand things she could have done to help this industry. She did jack.

I'll be the first to admit that the auto inductry didn't help themselves so there is plenty of blame ot go around, but the failure of leadership here is a triumvirate of stupidity between Granholm, Gettlefinger, and Wagoner. It had NOTHING to do with corporate greed. Apathy and ignorance? Yeah, I'll buy that. But Greed? no.

Just wanted to say that I voted for Obama. Way to early to tell if he is doing a good job. I do not think he was the ideal canidate but he was the better of the two. So as of now I am glad I voted for Obama

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Let me see if I got this right. 17000 members, of which I estimate half never go into OT. So out of 8500 people, 3 people in this thread ( I apologize if I missed someone) will admit that they voted for Obama, and one was just kidding. I have immense respect for the people that have posted, it takes courage to walk into the lions den and try to spray breath spray in his mouth. More people should be like you guys, well most, the one spiteful vote was probably what cost me MY candidate lol. Thanks Pokey LoL All in fun guys, just trying to break up the boredom a little at 2:30ish am Brad

agreed. id like to see more of the obama supporters in here so that there might actually be an argument, rather than a bunch of ppl yelling at each other and a few ppl giving some proof of their side of the argument.

quote Originally posted by Blue87Fiero: Just wanted to say that I voted for Obama. Way to early to tell if he is doing a good job. I do not think he was the ideal canidate but he was the better of the two. So as of now I am glad I voted for Obama

When you voted for Obama, what did you have hopes of seeing him change?

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Yes she could. The first thing she could have done was NOT raise Payroll and Corporate taxes to record levels. Nice little knife in the back. Secondly, she could have held the Unions to account. THEY are the real evil here. You complain about jobs going overseas? Well do the math! If you can hire come guy in China for $20/day versus $20/hour in the US to do the same job plus benefits, plus this, and plus that, it is a no brainer. As long as the government cow tows to the unions then jobs will evaporate. Get used to it. Thirdly, She could have incentivized the auto makers to expand local business by reducing corporate and payroll taxes, not to mention state property and excise taxes. She could have given them breaks on water, sewerage, and other state run utilities. She could have negotiated with other states and nations on behalf of the auto industry to buy American cars, etc etc etc. There were a thousand things she could have done to help this industry. She did jack. I'll be the first to admit that the auto inductry didn't help themselves so there is plenty of blame ot go around, but the failure of leadership here is a triumvirate of stupidity between Granholm, Gettlefinger, and Wagoner. It had NOTHING to do with corporate greed. Apathy and ignorance? Yeah, I'll buy that. But Greed? no.

not greed, eh?
so asking for record taxes is not greed?
severely overpaid union workers not greed?
ourtragously overpaid executives not greed?
oh, I agree theres plenty of both the apathy & ignorance as well

yes, I complain about job going overseas. so, you suggest the answer is for people to work for $20 a day, eh?

so, somehow, you think that paying auto workers $20/day & lower state taxes would have kept the car's being built & the companies profitable, huh?
$20 a day.
just how many cars do you think are gonna be built at that rate? enough to cover even just Rick Wagners salary?

and, water, sewer & utilities are city based, not state. whole other layer of horsecrap dealing with the City of Detroit

and, again - I agree she could have done more - but - it still would have not changed the outcome. as you said - cant compete with $20/day.
unless you have some magic negtive tax system in mind? should Granholm have used state taxes to subsidize them? explain how they could have been made competitive against $20/day workers? yes, I suppose allowing them to dump into Great Lakes again would have helped, eh? I suppose not requiring disability insurance would help, eh? ah, screw it - Granholm supply them barracks, and round up the nigga'z and make them slaves again! wooohoo! we did it!

I see what you are saying, but your suggestions are a Dixie cup bailing the Titanic.

I voted for Obama, and I don't regret it yet.

I didn't vote for him and I don't regret it. Whoever would have won would have inherited the mess we are in now. Who knows what McCain would have done if he had won.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I didn't vote for him and I don't regret it. Whoever would have won would have inherited the mess we are in now. Who knows what McCain would have done if he had won.

We will never know but my guess is exactly 95% of what GW Bush did.

quote Originally posted by nosrac: We will never know but my guess is exactly 95% of what GW Bush did.

Yeah because he was just more of the same...

HeLL yes.
Compared to the other choices, there WERE no other choices.
I still like him.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Let me see if I got this right. 17000 members, of which I estimate half never go into OT. So out of 8500 people, 3 people in this thread ( I apologize if I missed someone) will admit that they voted for Obama, and one was just kidding. I have immense respect for the people that have posted, it takes courage to walk into the lions den and try to spray breath spray in his mouth. More people should be like you guys, well most, the one spiteful vote was probably what cost me MY candidate lol. Thanks Pokey LoL All in fun guys, just trying to break up the boredom a little at 2:30ish am Brad

You inspired me to post....