OK, but when were your daughters born? It has been reported that in 1961 there were requirements that had to be met. Biggest one being that his mother had to live in the USA for five years after the age of 14. She married Obama Sr. at 18 and moved to Kenya, reportedly in January of 1961. Her birthday (11/29/1942) is in November so she fell a little short of meeting that requirement.
quote
Originally posted by ktthecarguy:
Do you have a US government source for that info? These regulations have been around for a long time. In fact, it has only been in the past 10 or so years that paternity testing has been a requirement for proving citizenship. Think about it, only since DNA testing has been around, has it even been possible to have such a requirement.
This whole issue has "red herring" written all over it.
No, my source is Bergs filings to the court. Thus the "It has been reported" part of my post that you quoted.
My point to you was that the laws applicable to citizenship in 1961 are what mater when it comes to Obama's nationality and the questions surrounding his eligibility to run for POTUS.
My question to you was when was your daughter born( foreign-born as you called it). If not around the same time as Obama, then your experience in these maters may not apply.
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05:45 PM
ktthecarguy Member
Posts: 2076 From: Livonia, MI USA Registered: Jun 2007
WHY would you instead choose to fight having to give those documents to the court if you have them?
I can think of 2 obvious reasons right off the bat.
1. He isn't a natural born U.S. citizen.
2. He is a natural born U.S. citizen, and is using the hoopla surrounding this issue to divert attention away from issues he doesn't want to discuss. He knows he can only be proven a citizen, so he has nothing to lose by prolonging it and can use the media circus to keep people occupied from his policies and plans for "change."
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08:16 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Watching it... I hope many people get a chance to see this. How can any thinking individual look at the Google earth map of Obama's neighborhood and not see through this guy?
Within a 3 block radius to the Obama home are the homes of louis farrakhan, William Ayres and Tony Rezko. This ain't no coincidence my friends.
[This message has been edited by rpro (edited 10-19-2008).]
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09:15 PM
PFF
System Bot
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
No offense, but this is just about the lamest political thread I have seen on the Forum in a long time. I just can't sugar coat it, this is just plain stupid.
Here's what John McCain himself has to say about the subject, 'cause he ain't stupid:
Bottom line:
No offense, but when It comes down to the bottom line, you asked a question, you got answers.....
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 10-20-2008).]
You think it's stupid that a presidential candidate won't prove he's a natural born citizen? McCain just said he was a citizen, not a natural born citizen. I believe there is a difference.
Jane
------------------ Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
I am not a photoshop person, I suck at it. I only started a few months ago.
Still it only took me a few minutes to make this. Now if I knew what I was doing, and I knew what font the names were typed in that would be different.
I didn't bother lining up the name where the original was either, just seemed pointless.
There is no seal on the birth certificate, so far all of my brothers and sisters (6) and Mom and Dad when they ordered copies of their birth certificate it came with a "Copy" seal on it. All of them, and we were born in California, Nebraska, Illinois, and Arkansas.
I'm sorry but I do see a problem with it, I really wonder why the number is blacked out as well.
I searched Google, took about 5 seconds, and came up with another birth certificate.
Here are a few of the issues the Barack Obama campaign could clear up by providing a paper copy which could be authenticated by Hawaii State officials:
1. Why do the colors and border elements on Obama’s birth certificate seem to be so different from a legitimate birth certificate? 2. Why is there no embssed seal on Obama’s birth certificate? 3. Why is there no embossed registrar’s signature on Obama’s birth certificate? 4. Why does Obama’s birth certificate appear to have the embossed date stamp of June [6] 2007, but no other embossings? 5. Why does Obama’s birth certificate have a “Date Filed by Registrar” whereas other birth certificates show a “Date Accepted”? 6. Why does Obama’s pristine copy not have folds, when Hawaii will only send these by mail in an envelope that requires folding?
Does this necessarily mean that Barack Obama’s birth certificate, as provided by his campaign is fraudulent? No. Nor does this necessarily demonstrate that Obama’s citizenship may not be American. It does raise a question that should be pretty easy to put to rest and has not, however, and that in itself is pretty disturbing. Why would there be lingering questions at all about something as fundamental as Barack Obama’s basic constitutional qualifications for the office of President of the United States? When you or I apply for a job, we provide physical documents as a matter of course. Why wouldn’t a person who wants us to hire him as our President not be eager to do the same?
All I am doing is asking questions, something every American should do HEAVILY, and about each candidate before stepping up to the ballot box.
By the way there are 5 different parties running for office. John McCain/Sarah Palin (R) Barack Obama/Joe Biden (D) Bob Barr/Wayne Root (L) Chuck Baldwin/Darrell Castle (C) Ralph Nader/Matt Gonzalez (I)
How come we never hear about any of the other parties? Dang news.
Frankly, after watching the video, and before reading the thread at all, I fully expected the Obama supporters to all give this the big "oh, ho hum, it's no big deal" dismissal.
Sadly I wasn't wrong.
It just goes to show the level of dedication to the Constitution most Democrats have. If it doesn't suite your needs, just toss that part out.
What's scary to me is that if this is proven to be true before the election, most likely Hilary will be tossed in as the Democratic candidate. While the dems are all crying "Wah! You mean Republicans!", it doesn't occur to them that this whole thing was probably started by Hilary supporters trying to get Obama out of the way.
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11:06 AM
FieroJam Member
Posts: 1118 From: Zephyrhills, FL Registered: Feb 2008
If his mother is American, he is a US Citizen. Period. Your wishing otherwise doesn't mean a thing.
Yes you are right but to run for President you must be a natural born American Citizen. Which means you must be born on American soil to at least one American citizen. As an American citizen born abroad in a German hospital I would know this since that does make me ineligible to run for President of this country even though I am an American Citizen.
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02:08 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37835 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by FieroJam: As an American citizen born abroad in a German hospital I would know this since that does make me ineligible to run for President of this country even though I am an American Citizen.
I was born in England. In a military hospital on an American base. Which would make me eligible. You are right FieroJam. There is a difference.
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02:12 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.
Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”
The thing that makes me wonder is, if his mother would have been prevented from flying, and was in Kenya two weeks before he was born- there's a question mark. The certificate above is not an actual Birth Certificate - It's some document produced before the BC is issued. It's a 'Certificate of Live Birth.' Confusing to say the least. As for the differences between the example shown above? Who knows? The fact that his kin (were they even there?) can't get the details of his birth straight? Means nothing. Except they ain't so bright, apparently. And his father putting him into a school meaning he lost his citizenship? Yeah, like that is valid. He attended school, but he more likely did so under the radar. I mean, Indonesia? As Barry S? We expect legitimacy there? Whatever. This is a Red Herring, and if McCain hopes to win the election, he needs to distance himself from it. Berg is a nut case trying to get Hillary back in the running before the election.
“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.
Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”
The thing that makes me wonder is, if his mother would have been prevented from flying, and was in Kenya two weeks before he was born- there's a question mark. The certificate above is not an actual Birth Certificate - It's some document produced before the BC is issued. It's a 'Certificate of Live Birth.' Confusing to say the least. As for the differences between the example shown above? Who knows? The fact that his kin (were they even there?) can't get the details of his birth straight? Means nothing. Except they ain't so bright, apparently. And his father putting him into a school meaning he lost his citizenship? Yeah, like that is valid. He attended school, but he more likely did so under the radar. I mean, Indonesia? As Barry S? We expect legitimacy there? Whatever. This is a Red Herring, and if McCain hopes to win the election, he needs to distance himself from it. Berg is a nut case trying to get Hillary back in the running before the election.
The qualifications for eligibility to run for POTUS is not a red Herring. It's a constitutional requirement. If he won't clear it up, there must be a reason. It's a simple process to take care of. I don't want a President that can't take care of the simple things.
Jane
------------------ Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
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06:59 PM
Oct 21st, 2008
USFiero Member
Posts: 4879 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Originally posted by calamityjane: The qualifications for eligibility to run for POTUS is not a red Herring. It's a constitutional requirement. If he won't clear it up, there must be a reason.
Best I can figure, it's a nuisance suit. I really wanted to be able to say to myself "Aw, that's it, he can't run now because it's obvious he's ineligible." But that does not appear to be the case. Giving Berg undue attention is like voting for Nader. Besides, Obama already admitted he is from Krypton. There are armies of lawyers on both sides - if there was true merit to this, you know darn well it would be all over the place. Scanner software can 'clean up' images (of course, they can be doctored/altered too) and many times embossing does not show up - that's why often people will use a pencil to highlight impressions on paper. Of course, the document shown is not a birth certificate; but I don't know if anyone should put that sort of document out there on the Internet. There are a lot of crazies in the world. The other points? All debatable and hard to prove/disprove on various unreliable people's recollections. It won't clear up not because Obama isn't taking care of business, but because desperate people are clinging to flimsy arguments. The point I'd make is that if the republicans spend a lot of time pressing this point now, they will certainly give away any advantage they have.
[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 10-21-2008).]
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08:42 AM
Oct 22nd, 2008
waggintails Member
Posts: 76 From: Stirling, New Jersey Registered: Jan 2007
This has been an interesting thread. This is propaganda, and interestingly only a few weeks before the election, hmmmm.
It is clear, that the republicans will stop at nothing to win this election.
Obama was born to a mother who was a citizen of the United States. Also, see below and keep in mind that John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone -- NOT in the U.S.
Here's this, from Wikipedia: "The requirements for citizenship and the very definition thereof have changed since the Constitution was ratified in 1788. Congress first recognized the citizenship of children born to U.S. parents overseas on March 26, 1790, under the first naturalization law: "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."
Phillip Berg serves up some compelling evidence, but bear in mind he is a disgruntled Hillary supporter. He has also filed lawsuits against Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld after 911. Even though the birth records at a hospital in Kenya is hard to argue with, this guy needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
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09:38 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
(HONOLULU, HI)(October 22, 2008) Internet powerhouse Andy Martin told a Honolulu news conference today that after an intense international investigation he is convinced that Barack Obama, Junior, the presidential candidate is really the son of Obama's controversial mentor Frank Marshall Davis.
"Mendacious adults 'switched' Obama at birth. That is why he has refused to allow access to the original or 'vault' birth certificate," Martin told a Honolulu news conference. "We believe the original certificate did not list a father. Barack Obama became the father as a result of an agreement between Ann Dunham, Frank Marshall Davis and Barack Obama, Sr.
"Davis was already married to a White Woman. He did not need a nonmarital child by a second one. Ann probably refused to have what was then called a 'back alley' abortion. Davis may have felt that 'Obama' would face less stigma with an 'African' background than a Negro one. The civil rights revolution, of course, turned that gambit upside down. In discovering and understanding what happened we cannot forget we are dealing with events in 1961, not 2008.
"The irony in all of this is that Obama once stated he did not want his daughters to be 'victimized' with a child. And he is alive because his mother took the contrary view.
"Barack Obama has known this since adulthood, and the shock of this discovery still reverberates in his psyche.
"Ironically, what I have to say today dilutes the 'Muslim' theory that has propagated. Davis was not a Muslim. If Obama had told the truth at some point in his life, instead of living endlessly with the lies that were imposed on him by the adults in his life, we would have avoided a great deal of confusion. I, for one, have deep compassion for Mr. Obama. He is not the first person in history to be caught up in this kind of family fraud.
"The disclosure by the two women in his life that he was not the 'son' of his 'father' also explains why he manifests such extreme ambivalence to both his mother and grandmother. He is angry because he was cheated of his real father.
"Obama was robbed of his birthright of being the son of civil rights royalty, and of a father with whom he was completely simpatico. He could have grown up the son of Frank Marshall Davis, civil rights pioneer and activist, cutting-edge journalist, poet and man of letters. Mr. Davis was an extraordinary man in a dark period of this nation's history, the pre-dawn of the civil rights era.
"Obama has probably suspended his campaign and is flying to Honolulu because he is deathly afraid his grandmother may make a 'dying declaration' and blow the whistle on his family fraud. Dying people often blurt out the truth. The true facts of Obama's parentage also reflect why there has been so much tension and alienation, as well as genuine love, in Obama's relationship with his grandmother.
"There has been a great deal of confusion and misconception about Frank Marshall Davis. A brief history lesson is essential to understanding the bizarre facts of Obama's provenance.
"During the 1920's and 30's many Negros (African-Americans) became 'communists' because the Soviet Union and the Communist Party USA promised to end racial segregation and Jim Crow laws in the United States. The Democratic Party, of course, was the powerful force behind segregation and Jim Crow. So it is a twist of fate that the same party that oppressed Blacks has now nominated one for president.
"Madelyn Dunham is the last surviving person who knows the truth about the switch. That is why as we closed in on Dunham, Obama went ballistic, cancelled his campaign and came to Hawai'i to head us off.
"I actually carry an official, certified pocket-sized birth certificate on me at all times [Andy shows a copy to media]. But this is NOT my 'birth certificate.' The original certificate is held in the City Clerk's vault in Middletown, Connecticut. That is what has come to be known as the 'vault copy.'
"Likewise, the document that Obama has plastered over the Internet is NOT his original birth certificate or even a copy of his original certificate. It is a computer generated facsimile of an official record and nothing more. The original certificate was either handwritten or typewritten, not computer-generated in 1961. No one has ever seen that original certificate except the people that are working so hard to keep it hidden from the American people.
"I am asking Judge Ayabe to impound the value certificate and have the court hold it for safekeeping.
"By the time Barack Obama learned who he was, it was too late to change his identity. He was who he was, so he continued the ruse of being the son of an 'African herder,' which was yet another lie. 'Dreams From My Father' bears no connection to dreams from Barack Obama; there were none. It was Frank Marshall Davis who communicated his dreams to his secret son.
"There is a simple way for Obama to resolve this controversy: he can either admit the truth of these facts and order the immediate release of his vault certificate; or he can submit to a DNA test. We can conduct a Maury Povich-style DNA test to determine filiation between Obama and his brothers, one of whom blogs at BarackObama.com.
"In closing, I can only say that we used the fictional 'Hawai'i Five-O' as our dramatic template for this investigative operation. We could have as easily used the great, real-life Hawai'i detective Chang Apana as our polestar. He was featured in yesterday's newspaper.
"As for Mr. Obama, all I can say is 'Book'em Danno." Case solved. Barack Obama the presidential candidate is the son of Frank Marshall Davis." Martin stated.
"I bear Mr. Obama no ill will and no animus. I have only been a faithful servant of the search for truth, and I believe we finally know the secret truths about who Barack Obama really is: the son of Frank Marshall Davis."
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10:23 PM
rpro Member
Posts: 2920 From: Rockledge, FL Registered: Jun 2006
(HONOLULU, HI)(October 22, 2008) Internet powerhouse Andy Martin told a Honolulu news conference today that after an intense international investigation he is convinced that Barack Obama, Junior, the presidential candidate is really the son of Obama's controversial mentor Frank Marshall Davis.
"Mendacious adults 'switched' Obama at birth. That is why he has refused to allow access to the original or 'vault' birth certificate," Martin told a Honolulu news conference. "We believe the original certificate did not list a father. Barack Obama became the father as a result of an agreement between Ann Dunham, Frank Marshall Davis and Barack Obama, Sr.
"Davis was already married to a White Woman. He did not need a nonmarital child by a second one. Ann probably refused to have what was then called a 'back alley' abortion. Davis may have felt that 'Obama' would face less stigma with an 'African' background than a Negro one. The civil rights revolution, of course, turned that gambit upside down. In discovering and understanding what happened we cannot forget we are dealing with events in 1961, not 2008.
"The irony in all of this is that Obama once stated he did not want his daughters to be 'victimized' with a child. And he is alive because his mother took the contrary view.
"Barack Obama has known this since adulthood, and the shock of this discovery still reverberates in his psyche.
"Ironically, what I have to say today dilutes the 'Muslim' theory that has propagated. Davis was not a Muslim. If Obama had told the truth at some point in his life, instead of living endlessly with the lies that were imposed on him by the adults in his life, we would have avoided a great deal of confusion. I, for one, have deep compassion for Mr. Obama. He is not the first person in history to be caught up in this kind of family fraud.
"The disclosure by the two women in his life that he was not the 'son' of his 'father' also explains why he manifests such extreme ambivalence to both his mother and grandmother. He is angry because he was cheated of his real father.
"Obama was robbed of his birthright of being the son of civil rights royalty, and of a father with whom he was completely simpatico. He could have grown up the son of Frank Marshall Davis, civil rights pioneer and activist, cutting-edge journalist, poet and man of letters. Mr. Davis was an extraordinary man in a dark period of this nation's history, the pre-dawn of the civil rights era.
"Obama has probably suspended his campaign and is flying to Honolulu because he is deathly afraid his grandmother may make a 'dying declaration' and blow the whistle on his family fraud. Dying people often blurt out the truth. The true facts of Obama's parentage also reflect why there has been so much tension and alienation, as well as genuine love, in Obama's relationship with his grandmother.
"There has been a great deal of confusion and misconception about Frank Marshall Davis. A brief history lesson is essential to understanding the bizarre facts of Obama's provenance.
"During the 1920's and 30's many Negros (African-Americans) became 'communists' because the Soviet Union and the Communist Party USA promised to end racial segregation and Jim Crow laws in the United States. The Democratic Party, of course, was the powerful force behind segregation and Jim Crow. So it is a twist of fate that the same party that oppressed Blacks has now nominated one for president.
"Madelyn Dunham is the last surviving person who knows the truth about the switch. That is why as we closed in on Dunham, Obama went ballistic, cancelled his campaign and came to Hawai'i to head us off.
"I actually carry an official, certified pocket-sized birth certificate on me at all times [Andy shows a copy to media]. But this is NOT my 'birth certificate.' The original certificate is held in the City Clerk's vault in Middletown, Connecticut. That is what has come to be known as the 'vault copy.'
"Likewise, the document that Obama has plastered over the Internet is NOT his original birth certificate or even a copy of his original certificate. It is a computer generated facsimile of an official record and nothing more. The original certificate was either handwritten or typewritten, not computer-generated in 1961. No one has ever seen that original certificate except the people that are working so hard to keep it hidden from the American people.
"I am asking Judge Ayabe to impound the value certificate and have the court hold it for safekeeping.
"By the time Barack Obama learned who he was, it was too late to change his identity. He was who he was, so he continued the ruse of being the son of an 'African herder,' which was yet another lie. 'Dreams From My Father' bears no connection to dreams from Barack Obama; there were none. It was Frank Marshall Davis who communicated his dreams to his secret son.
"There is a simple way for Obama to resolve this controversy: he can either admit the truth of these facts and order the immediate release of his vault certificate; or he can submit to a DNA test. We can conduct a Maury Povich-style DNA test to determine filiation between Obama and his brothers, one of whom blogs at BarackObama.com.
"In closing, I can only say that we used the fictional 'Hawai'i Five-O' as our dramatic template for this investigative operation. We could have as easily used the great, real-life Hawai'i detective Chang Apana as our polestar. He was featured in yesterday's newspaper.
"As for Mr. Obama, all I can say is 'Book'em Danno." Case solved. Barack Obama the presidential candidate is the son of Frank Marshall Davis." Martin stated.
"I bear Mr. Obama no ill will and no animus. I have only been a faithful servant of the search for truth, and I believe we finally know the secret truths about who Barack Obama really is: the son of Frank Marshall Davis."
WTF? At least there is more to it them Palins son is really her grandson but come on?
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10:38 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20708 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
There is a new theory that BO jumped off of the campaign not only to see his grandma, but to find some incriminating papers she had kept. BO, Put your cards on the table please and end this **** .
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10:54 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
People on here scream bloody murder if someone makes a HP claim without proof - but they don't care if their POTUS candidate is legally eligible? Just pony up the proof, make those bringing the lawsuit look stupid and move on.
Bill Clinton could have avoided much hassle if he'd just said, "Yeah, I had sex with her," and moved on.
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11:02 PM
waggintails Member
Posts: 76 From: Stirling, New Jersey Registered: Jan 2007
This has been an interesting thread. This is propaganda, and interestingly only a few weeks before the election, hmmmm.
It is clear, that the republicans will stop at nothing to win this election.
."
This is the action of a democrat............
Yes it is, I am an independent and going Democrat this time around. I voted for Bush, look where that got us.
This election isn’t even a decision at this point. McCain twists everything Obama says especially about taxes which seems to be what McCain relys on to win his vote.
Palin has a 1 in 6 chance of becoming president if McCain gets elected, are you ready for that if that happens?
This has been an interesting thread. This is propaganda, and interestingly only a few weeks before the election, hmmmm.
It is clear, that the republicans will stop at nothing to win this election.
."
This is the action of a democrat............
Yes it is, I am an independent and going Democrat this time around. I voted for Bush, look where that got us.
This election isn’t even a decision at this point. McCain twists everything Obama says especially about taxes which seems to be what McCain relys on to win his vote.
Palin has a 1 in 6 chance of becoming president if McCain gets elected, are you ready for that if that happens?
Talk about nightmares.
Lets see an intelligent woman who has been a mayor and a governor. Yeah nightmares. I mean that's loads worse then an empty suit who has a track record of voting to raise taxes remove 2nd amendment rights and wants to make America a socialist country where the "rich" are robbed to prop up the poor. Where exactly did voting for Bush get us? Last I checked things got worse when the dems took over congress in 06.
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11:08 PM
rpro Member
Posts: 2920 From: Rockledge, FL Registered: Jun 2006
Palins' counterpart claims we will experience an international crisis within six months. That doesn't exude confidence with people. Then, on top of that he asks for support because it won't be immediately apparent that Obama's response would be the correct one. All Bush did was keep us safe for eight years, and now your guy says (and I quote) "Mark my words, this is going to happen".
Thanks, but I'm not the suicidal type when it comes to protecting this country.
P.S. This whole lawsuit was filed by a life long Democrat from PA state. This has nothing to do with the Republicans.
[This message has been edited by rpro (edited 10-22-2008).]
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11:17 PM
Oct 23rd, 2008
waggintails Member
Posts: 76 From: Stirling, New Jersey Registered: Jan 2007
Why do you think McCain would handle a crisis any better than Obama would? All you have to do is look back three weeks to see how much better Obama handled the financial meltdown as compared to McCain.
The only "proof" that George Bush has kept us "safe" is that nobody's tried to attack us. I don't see how that says Bush is the reason. And not for a second do I believe that Biden's "prediction" of an international crisis indicts Obama. Of course there will be one. If McCain gets elected, there won't be an international crisis at some point? Of course there will be. You’ve heard of Russia haven’t you?
Why do you think McCain would handle a crisis any better than Obama would? All you have to do is look back three weeks to see how much better Obama handled the financial meltdown as compared to McCain.
The only "proof" that George Bush has kept us "safe" is that nobody's tried to attack us. I don't see how that says Bush is the reason. And not for a second do I believe that Biden's "prediction" of an international crisis indicts Obama. Of course there will be one. If McCain gets elected, there won't be an international crisis at some point? Of course there will be. You’ve heard of Russia haven’t you?
So doing nothing is what you think is good handling of a situation? And people have tried to attack us. They have failed.
He was a wise man.
4th? LOL. I lost track, and i'm too lazy to go back right now.
