I find the Indonesia connection very interesting because Indonesia is approximately 90% Muslim. Swears he has been a christian for 20 years but attended a muslim school. Sounds kinda fishy. In the current world climate the last thing the USA needs is a closet muslim president.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: John McCain wasn't born in ANY state of the United States. Hell, the man was born in Central America! This is a trivial nonissue.

McCain was born of American parents in an American controlled canal zone.

Hes American.

quote Originally posted by htexans1: McCain was born of American parents in an American controlled canal zone. Hes American.

Yup. The question was raised when he first ran for president and he is a natural born citizen.
There's no harm in asking, of either McCain OR Obama. It SHOULD be asked. All candidates should have proof of natural born citizenship, not naturalization, but natural born.
If Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, then he's a natural born U.S. citizen. The question would then become if he lost or renounced his citizenship later in life.

I'm not sure about dual citizenship in the U.S., but you can lose your U.S. citizenship by several ways:

quote Loss of citizenship (INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481) Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include: * becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18; * serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US; * working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant); * formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or * committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Yup. The question was raised when he first ran for president and he is a natural born citizen. There's no harm in asking, of either McCain OR Obama. It SHOULD be asked. All candidates should have proof of natural born citizenship, not naturalization, but natural born. If Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, then he's a natural born U.S. citizen. The question would then become if he lost or renounced his citizenship later in life. I'm not sure about dual citizenship in the U.S., but you can lose your U.S. citizenship by several ways: [QUOTE] Loss of citizenship (INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481) Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include: * becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18; * serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US; * working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant); * formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or * committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

[/QUOTE]

Also, since he was born to at least one US citizen (his mother) he is an American citizen, no matter where he was born; same as McCain. End of discussion.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Also, since he was born to at least one US citizen (his mother) he is an American citizen, no matter where he was born; same as McCain. End of discussion.

No it isn't the same as McCain and no it isn't end of discussion.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Also, since he was born to at least one US citizen (his mother) he is an American citizen, no matter where he was born; same as McCain. End of discussion.

That is not always the case. For instance, if he was born in say Indonesia with an Indonesian father wand was issued with an Indonesian birth certificate how would that make him American?

if one parent is a citizen that is all it takes
and moms get a solid claim
unlike dads who may or may not be the real father
so need an investigation ect

anyway obomba was born in the usa
so the neo-conned need to get over it
and move on

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: That is not always the case. For instance, if he was born in say Indonesia with an Indonesian father wand was issued with an Indonesian birth certificate how would that make him American?

In a word, yes. If either parent is American, he is American. If it is the father, a paternity test may be required to prove a claim of citizenship. If it is the mother, done deal.

How do I know? I have been through all this myself.

St Louis---100,000+ don't seem to believe anything a republican says anymore.
RNC to pull money from the Failed McCain campaign to try to save the ability to filibuster.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: In a word, yes. If either parent is American, he is American.

That's what I would have thought. Unless the mother was somehow no longer an American citizen, I don't see why this is an issue. But, I assume the guy who brought the lawsuit thought of this, so there may be something we don't know about or are overlooking.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: As far as citizenship, it is. Unless you have some other POLITICAL agenda. But the question about citizenship has been asked AND ANSWERED.

No, it's no where near been answered. The question has been asked and Obama refuses to answer. And before you say "He already posted his birth certificate", that one is so questionable that I can't believe the DNC posted it. That is an uncertified copy of what is supposed to be a Hawaiian Certifications of Live Birth that has the Certificate number blacked out, has no signature, no embossed seal, and is dated Jun 7, 2007 on the back. According to the Hawaii State Department of Health (HSDH), Certifications of Live Birth will ALWAYS include an embossed seal. If you look at other Hawaiian Certifications of Live Birth you can see the Embossed seal and a signature on the back, Obama's has none but you can see the date on the back.

Obama has been asked to provide a Certified vault copy but refuses and now hides behind lawyers to try to stop the inquiries and dismiss the case against him. Why go to the trouble when all he has to do is provide a certified copy or hell just enter the one the DNC has posted as evidence and let the court verify it's authenticity. McCain had to do it when he was questioned about his citizenship. Obviously not a big deal to answer the question but he is sure fighting it for some reason. Hummmm?

It is my belief that when you run for office, and not just POTUS but any office, you have an obligation to answer the publics questions and provide the proof required to back up your answers when issues arise. We have a right to know who you are and what you stand for. We have the right to confirm any information provided to us by you or your campaign and should expect timely answers to our questions. Obama was asked about his citizenship, he answered by posting a scan of a Certifications of Live Birth which led to more questions, and now he avoids answering by using tactics to stall the court. So no, the question has not been answered IMO.

BTW, I also found the same certificate as Obama's on google images only it's blank. Would not be too hard to produce the same birth certificate for Micky Mouse. (Since he is registered to vote)

quote Originally posted by fierobear: 100,000 people...who don't care that Obama is a socialist. Great. Just what the country needs in a time of economic crisis in a capitalist country. I sincerely hope it isn't *your* job that is lost when Obama goes on his "Robin Hood" campaign against the rich, and causes massive job losses.

That's a 100,000 Americans who don't believe the repub campaign of fear and hate.
The massive jobs loses are already here, compliments of the bush administration and the party of incompetence
Republican think the American voter is stupid. It's obvious by the low level, crap they try to pull.
There is no war on the rich, but the repubs have almost destroyed the middle class. Never noticing a strong middle class is what makes the economy function well.
It will take a while to repair the damage to our country the bush administration has caused, but at least it will be underway rather than getting worse.

Republicans have lost more than an election, They have deservedly lost credibility.
More desperation and the new talking point of the McCain campaign just won't fly any more.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: As far as citizenship, it is. Unless you have some other POLITICAL agenda. But the question about citizenship has been asked AND ANSWERED.

Per the Constitution you must be a natural born American citizen to run for President.

quote Originally posted by calamityjane: Is this a document from the state in which you were born with the correct birth information though? I can see them issuing one for new parents, but I can't see them issuing one with false birth information. Jane

Yes, it has the correct birth information, except for the father on one.

Brad

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: As far as citizenship, it is. Unless you have some other POLITICAL agenda. But the question about citizenship has been asked AND ANSWERED.

No it hasn't. And you need more then just an American parent when born overseas in a foreign country on foreign land. There is also the issue or whether he was a citizen or Indonesia by way of the adoption. If he was not born in America, a point not proven, but in Kenya and then made a legal Indonesian citizen he is ineligible to be President. My only agenda is that of upholding the sanctity of the constitution and the office of president. Why is it so hard for Obama to provide legitimate certified documentation. He is hiding something. But if you don't care that a ineligible foreigner may be running for the leader of this country illegally and dishonesty that cool. I prefer honesty and integrity but that's just me.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: No it hasn't. And you need more then just an American parent when born overseas in a foreign country on foreign land. There is also the issue or whether he was a citizen or Indonesia by way of the adoption./snip.

Dead

Solid

Wrong.

If his mother is American, he is a US Citizen. Period. Your wishing otherwise doesn't mean a thing.

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: That's a 100,000 Americans who don't believe the repub campaign of fear and hate. The massive jobs loses are already here, compliments of the bush administration and the party of incompetence Republican think the American voter is stupid. It's obvious by the low level, crap they try to pull. There is no war on the rich, but the repubs have almost destroyed the middle class. Never noticing a strong middle class is what makes the economy function well. It will take a while to repair the damage to our country the bush administration has caused, but at least it will be underway rather than getting worse. Republicans have lost more than an election, They have deservedly lost credibility. More desperation and the new talking point of the McCain campaign just won't fly any more.

Wolf, there really isn't anything of substance to respond to in that post. If you need to rant, you have that right, but accusing me of desperation and saying talking points is pretty meaningless in your post.

Bush has done nothing to kill the middle class. He gave *everyone* a tax cut, a fact that folks like you conveniently forget. He gave a tax rebate (stimulus package). Obama wants to raise taxes on the people and institutions that create middle-class jobs in the first place. When you raise taxes, you hurt those who pay them. But go ahead, elect your socialist and see how that works. I sincerely hope the job that is lost is not yours.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Dead Solid Wrong. If his mother is American, he is a US Citizen. Period. Your wishing otherwise doesn't mean a thing.

That's not true. And its not wishing.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: That's not true. And its not wishing.

It absolutely IS true. I have two daughters, one foreign-born, the other US born. They are BOTH US citizens. I know what the HELL I'm talking about. What experience do YOU have?!?

Jeezuz, get a effing clue!

ktthecarguy, none of which addresses whether he may have lost citizenship as some point.
Go back to the my previous post - the one you quoted - and actually READ what you quoted.

Even if this issue has been "asked and answered" there should be no reason for the Obama campaign to block any legal efforts to verify his citizenship. He should simply provide an official copy of his birth certificate and end the debate. If he's lost citizenship at some point later, that would be the plaintiff's burden of proof, I would think.

His efforts to block and evade this definitely suggest he's hiding something. Maybe it's his citizenship, or maybe he's using this to create a media circus so other questions don't get asked.

I personally think any candidate for POTUS should have to have full disclosure of their personal and business affairs. Most already do by publishing their tax records, etc. Your birth certificate should be included in that.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: ktthecarguy, none of which addresses whether he may have lost citizenship as some point. Go back to the my previous post - the one you quoted - and actually READ what you quoted. Even if this issue has been "asked and answered" there should be no reason for the Obama campaign to block any legal efforts to verify his citizenship. He should simply provide an official copy of his birth certificate and end the debate. If he's lost citizenship at some point later, that would be the plaintiff's burden of proof, I would think. His efforts to block and evade this definitely suggest he's hiding something. Maybe it's his citizenship, or maybe he's using this to create a media circus so other questions don't get asked. I personally think any candidate for POTUS should have to have full disclosure of their personal and business affairs. Most already do by publishing their tax records, etc. Your birth certificate should be included in that.

There's no such thing as "losing" your US citizenship. Renouncing it would be the only nearest equivelant. I haven't heard that he ever renounced his US citizenship. And if you are digging into records, how about medical records? Would that be a valid inquiry also?

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: It absolutely IS true. I have two daughters, one foreign-born, the other US born. They are BOTH US citizens. I know what the HELL I'm talking about. What experience do YOU have?!? Jeezuz, get a effing clue!

OK, but when were your daughters born? It has been reported that in 1961 there were requirements that had to be met. Biggest one being that his mother had to live in the USA for five years after the age of 14. She married Obama Sr. at 18 and moved to Kenya, reportedly in January of 1961. Her birthday (11/29/1942) is in November so she fell a little short of meeting that requirement.

quote Originally posted by srat110: OK, but when were your daughters born? It has been reported that in 1961 there were requirements that had to be met. Biggest one being that his mother had to live in the USA for five years after the age of 14. She married Obama Sr. at 18 and moved to Kenya, reportedly in January of 1961. Her birthday (11/29/1942) is in November so she fell a little short of meeting that requirement.

Do you have a US government source for that info? These regulations have been around for a long time. In fact, it has only been in the past 10 or so years that paternity testing has been a requirement for proving citizenship. Think about it, only since DNA testing has been around, has it even been possible to have such a requirement.

This whole issue has "red herring" written all over it.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: It absolutely IS true. I have two daughters, one foreign-born, the other US born. They are BOTH US citizens. I know what the HELL I'm talking about. What experience do YOU have?!? Jeezuz, get a effing clue!

A friend born in Costa Rica to two US citizens but with a Costa Rican birth certificate. When I tried to hire him I couldn't because the back ground check came up flagged for him not being a US citizen. I took 3 weeks and letters from both the US state department and Rosta Riaca embassy along with written and notarized letters from his parents and the paperwork to prove they were US citizens. I have a clue. But I only deal with things like this every year where you have once so I'm sure you know what you're talking about........

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: There's no such thing as "losing" your US citizenship. Renouncing it would be the only nearest equivelant. I haven't heard that he ever renounced his US citizenship. And if you are digging into records, how about medical records? Would that be a valid inquiry also?

Again, READ what I posted above. That's U.S. law on ways you can lose your citizenship. That's not opinion - it's U.S. Code Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part III, § 1481 as well as the Immigration and Nationality Act, § 349.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: You can have it renounced for you. Like when your adoptive father does it when he makes you a citizen or Indonesia.

No you can't renounce citizenship on behalf of someone else! Otherwise, I hereby renounce YOU as a US citizen. Hmmm, I wonder if that would work...? JK

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: No you can't renounce citizenship on behalf of someone else! Otherwise, I hereby renounce YOU as a US citizen. Hmmm, I wonder if that would work...? JK

Are you my legal guardian? Am I a minor?

quote Originally posted by Phranc: A friend born in Costa Rica to two US citizens but with a Costa Rican birth certificate. When I tried to hire him I couldn't because the back ground check came up flagged for him not being a US citizen. I took 3 weeks and letters from both the US state department and Rosta Riaca embassy along with written and notarized letters from his parents and the paperwork to prove they were US citizens. I have a clue. But I only deal with things like this every year where you have once so I'm sure you know what you're talking about........

So, you have had one lifetime experience with proving US citizenship, and I have had two. Experience goes to me. And since you friend was able to prove his citizenship, that further proves my point. Thanks for helping.

[This message has been edited by ktthecarguy (edited 10-19-2008).]

The only place it matters that Obama prove his natural born state is in court. He hasn't done that IMO. The Democrats started this financial crisis in motion when Clinton was president. It's been coming for a long time. Bush inherited this problem, and has been trying to prop up the system and mitigate damages. JMHO

Jane

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Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality

U.S. Code Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part III, § 1481
Immigration and Nationality Act, § 349

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: So, you have had one lifetime experience with proving US citizenship, and I have had two. Experience goes to me. And since you friend was able to prove his citizenship, that further proves my point. Thanks for helping.

So you can't read. But you keep thinking you have a clue.

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: St Louis---100,000+ don't seem to believe anything a republican says anymore. RNC to pull money from the Failed McCain campaign to try to save the ability to filibuster.

Tells you how desperate Americans are to believe in something. Sort of scary how easily we will latch on to anything new.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And it would be so easy for the Obama campaign to put it to rest with full disclosure.

Yes it is so simple.

Obama *could* file for a declatory judgement and deliver indisputable documentation to the court in support of such motion.

He *could* save thousands of dollars in legal expenses.

He *could* save weeks and months of the courts time.

He *could* make Berg to be a complete fool.

He *could* put an end to the question once and for all.

He *could* , .....but he won't.

WHY?

If someone challenged *your* natural U.S. citizenship in court and you could simply walk into the court and put your certified birth certificate, hospital birth records, school records and any other documentation on the judge's bench and INSTANTLY make the case go away why would you refuse to do that?

WHY would you instead choose to fight having to give those documents to the court if you have them?

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 10-19-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Tells you how desperate Americans are to believe in something. Sort of scary how easily we will latch on to anything new.

Reminds me of a quote from Winston Churchill: "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else."

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-19-2008).]