WTF is "strawman"???

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Do you know who owns the gas stations??? In the case of Citgo for example, it's owned by Venuzuala. THEY control the price at the pumps, AND the price of the crude that others buy from them. In fact, most stations are owned by the big companies, & very few of them are owned by an indivudual. So my example is correct. You are also correct in that the gouging occurs directly from the companies/countries pumping the crude, as they ARTIFICALLY raise the prices simply by limiting production (and in the case of domestic companies, limiting refinement too). In fact, our fine administratrion is dealing with OPEC now, threatening to hold back their cash "incentives" if they don't increase production! GEE - WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THIS AT LEAST A YEAR AGO?!?!?? In fact, WHY ARE SENDING THEM MONEY ANYWAY??!!??!! Paul

You are correct about Citgo. That's why I don't shop there.

But most gas stations are franchises - not company owned. Then there are all the non affiliated shops that also sell gas. There's a convenience store just up from my house run by a local family. They have Exxon pumps to sell gas, but they aren't owned by Exxon. They just sell the gas.

But even in the case of the company owned stores - the profit margin isn't at the pump. That's not where the bulk of the money is being made. I agree that refining and crude production is being manipulated to drive up prices. But there is also the impact of investment speculators who are driving up the prices based on nothing at all. A gnat farts in Africa, and oil goes up $3 on "supply fears." That's being manipulated by the market, not the oil companies. As the value of the dollar drops, more money is invested into oil as a hedge. With that much money going into oil, the price will go up.

If the Fed gets our economy back on track and the dollar strengthens some, you'll see people selling their oil funds and that will bring the price down some. How much is hard to say.

One more thing about Democrats, gas prices and global warming...
Democrats’ Inconvenient Gas Price Problem

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You are correct about Citgo. That's why I don't shop there. But most gas stations are franchises - not company owned. Then there are all the non affiliated shops that also sell gas. There's a convenience store just up from my house run by a local family. They have Exxon pumps to sell gas, but they aren't owned by Exxon. They just sell the gas. But even in the case of the company owned stores - the profit margin isn't at the pump. That's not where the bulk of the money is being made. I agree that refining and crude production is being manipulated to drive up prices. But there is also the impact of investment speculators who are driving up the prices based on nothing at all. A gnat farts in Africa, and oil goes up $3 on "supply fears." That's being manipulated by the market, not the oil companies. As the value of the dollar drops, more money is invested into oil as a hedge. With that much money going into oil, the price will go up. If the Fed gets our economy back on track and the dollar strengthens some, you'll see people selling their oil funds and that will bring the price down some. How much is hard to say.

Yeah, I don't go to citgo unless it's a last resort. Same with exxon, since they lied about the cleanup of the Valdez, & especially since they haven't paid those folks.
Even with franchises the price is set (more or less) by the oil companies, by the amount they charge the franchise. The owner makes very little on the gas, if he stays competitive.
At last (and at least), an intelligent post.
Still the thread has long been ruined.
Paul

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Yeah, I don't go to citgo unless it's a last resort. Same with exxon, since they lied about the cleanup of the Valdez, & especially since they haven't paid those folks. Even with franchises the price is set (more or less) by the oil companies, by the amount they charge the franchise. The owner makes very little on the gas, if he stays competitive. At last (and at least), an intelligent post. Still the thread has long been ruined. Paul

So the only posts that are intelligent are ones you agree with. And anything counter is BS. What exactly did Exxon lie about on the clean up of the Valdez? Gas price is not set by the oil company alone there are many other factors to what gas is set at. there is even zoning prices, state and federal controls in the way of regional blends and taxes and transportation costs. Oh yeah and then there is the biggest force. Its called the market.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: What exactly did Exxon lie about on the clean up of the Valdez?

The whole Exxon Valdez fiasco is rife with lies. There are multiple lawsuits still pending against Exxon for failure to complete the cleanup measures required. Exxon says they did, people in the area say they didn't. Damages that were to be paid to locals who lost their livelihood due to the accident haven't been paid and have been tied up in litigation for years. It's almost as if Exxon is trying to keep it tied up in court until everyone who was affected dies off so they won't have to pay the damages.

Exxon was ordered to pay $4.5 Billion in punitive damages to 34,000 fishermen and other Alaskans. Exxon maintains they should only have to pay no more than $25 Million. After 17 years of appeals, it's still in court.

"In the region itself, pockets of relatively fresh Exxon Valdez oil remain on shorelines as distant as Katmai National Park, about 300 miles from the site where the supertanker disgorged 11 million gallons of crude oil, according to government scientists who presented their studies at a conference this week in Anchorage.

“This stuff isn’t changing at all. It’s just the same kind of goo that got deposited there in 1989,” said Jeff Short, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric researcher."

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11059801/
Note: that article was from 2006, so I'm not sure what progress has been made since then. Given the progress of the first 17 years, I'm not holding my breath it was all resolved in the last 2.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The whole Exxon Valdez fiasco is rife with lies. There are multiple lawsuits still pending against Exxon for failure to complete the cleanup measures required. Exxon says they did, people in the area say they didn't. Damages that were to be paid to locals who lost their livelihood due to the accident haven't been paid and have been tied up in litigation for years. It's almost as if Exxon is trying to keep it tied up in court until everyone who was affected dies off so they won't have to pay the damages.

FYI, this is not unusual. Companies often fight judgments with appeals, with the hope they judgment will be overturned on appeal. Who the hell WANTS to just pay out billions in a judgment?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The whole Exxon Valdez fiasco is rife with lies. There are multiple lawsuits still pending against Exxon for failure to complete the cleanup measures required. Exxon says they did, people in the area say they didn't. Damages that were to be paid to locals who lost their livelihood due to the accident haven't been paid and have been tied up in litigation for years. It's almost as if Exxon is trying to keep it tied up in court until everyone who was affected dies off so they won't have to pay the damages. Exxon was ordered to pay $4.5 Billion in punitive damages to 34,000 fishermen and other Alaskans. Exxon maintains they should only have to pay no more than $25 Million. After 17 years of appeals, it's still in court. "In the region itself, pockets of relatively fresh Exxon Valdez oil remain on shorelines as distant as Katmai National Park, about 300 miles from the site where the supertanker disgorged 11 million gallons of crude oil, according to government scientists who presented their studies at a conference this week in Anchorage. “This stuff isn’t changing at all. It’s just the same kind of goo that got deposited there in 1989,” said Jeff Short, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric researcher." Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11059801/ Note: that article was from 2006, so I'm not sure what progress has been made since then. Given the progress of the first 17 years, I'm not holding my breath it was all resolved in the last 2.

So they didn't clean it all up and said they did. That would be a lie.

How exactly is continued litigation a lie? Are appeals lies now too? Rife with lies you say but only come up with one. Since when is one, rife?

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: OK you're ALL right. I completely agree with you: There is the SAME amount of Co2 in the atmosphere as there has always been. The Ice cores lie. When you burn fossil fuels, there are no pollutants just Co2 & that dosen't hurt anything cause it's completely natural. The people of Prince William Sound are making huge profits off of the oil left behind by the Valdez, & living in mansions because of it. The Ice caps are the same size as they've always been. The forests are still as large as they ever were. We are not dependent on foriegn oil. Bush has never given the rich any tax reliefs. The oil companies deserve every dime they make, & in fact we should be so grateful to them we should donate more money to them. Greenhouse gasses actually COOL DOWN the earth. The temperature of the earth has remained constant since the beginning of time. My internet connection is better than anyone elses in the entire world. I want EVERYONE on PFF to post more BS about what they believe causes global warming so that my thread is COMLETELY useless for the purpose I intended it for. Paul

well, lets start at the top - maybe we can get thru this OK
CO2 content depends on what time frame you look at - there was a time when the atmosphere actually had NO oxygen - was all Nitrogen & CO2. that was it. so - yes - CO2 is natural, and does not hurt anything. you spout it out with every breath.
the Ice Cores - lie? dont think so. but - there is MUCH room for interpetting to suit needs.
and - no - buring fossil fuels DOES create pollutants - CO2 just isnt one of them.
no - the Ice Caps ARE shrinking. the glaciers ARE melting. I have seen it 1st hand. ground exposed at the Canadien Glacier Park. ground that no previous generation of white man has ever seen.
and - for the oil companies - just dont buy their product.

"greenhouse gasses" is a failed theory. which is the root of all this hoopla. as the mighty ice cores show - the temprature of the earth does in fact change. alot. this is not the first time for "global warming". by the mighty ice cores - it has in fact been shown to have happened at least 5 times. so - here is the question: why does it happen? you seem to think it has to do with burning stuff & CO2. who was burnng fossil fuels the previous times? what civilization spent 30+ years buring fossil fuels & rampant industrial pollution??

greenhouse gasses is like your mom trying to scare you into behaveing with the boogeyman. he's gonna getcha.
stop polluting, or the greenhouse gasses are gonna getcha.

noone is "for" pollution. we just dont beleive in the boogeyman.

I recycle, I ride my bicycle, I live in high density housing.

just because I know "greenhouse gasses" is a failed theory - does not mean I am jumping around pouring used motor oil into the lake.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So the only posts that are intelligent are ones you agree with. And anything counter is BS..

Ya, thats what I get too. Thats why people can't post things he doesn't like in his thread.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Ya, thats what I get too. Thats why people can't post things he doesn't like in his thread.

Well, all I asked was for folks to post their carbon footprint, to compare & maybe help reduce the pollution (BECAUSE YES WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT BURNING FOSSIL FUELS CAUSE POLLUTION!). Yet you kids, who think you know everything ('cause it's all posted on the web & we all know everything posted on the web is true), turn the thread into a cluster @#$% debating whether Co2 is pollution & how it dosen't affect global wraming or the environment at all - IN SPITE OF MY ASKING SEVERAL TIMES FOR YOU NOT TO!!!!
I think I'll go into all your threads & turn them into a debate completely changing the direction of the thread & see how you like it.
Geeze you don't even know anything about how exxon lied about the cleanup of the Valdez spill. After they said it was "completely" cleaned up, you could go to the beach & turn over rocks & every one of them was covered with oil on the bottom. All exxon did was pressure wash the top of them all to make them look clean.
Edit: Funny how the computer models of the late 80's, when they plugged in the Co2 we're producing (& other pollution from burning fossil fuels), showed the EXACT changes in the atmosphere that's occuring today (along with the melting of the ice caps & everything). Also funny how they predicted none of this would happen without our Co2/pollution. But of cpourse that's all just conjecture. Global warming is not happening at all, according to you. Even if it's natural, we need to do what we can to correct it. I don't care what you think - we're killing this planet with our pollution & if you don't care how your grandkids suffer from it - well it dosen't suprise me at all. After all, I've seen that 90% of you don't care about any one but yourself anyway. God forbid you make a few miniscle sacrifices for future generations.
/edit.
This is my last post in this thread. It's long been runined, & no one will ever be able to use it foir it's intended purpose after all this BS. Of course, YOU CONTINUE TO POST ANYWAY - HOW DENSE CAN YOU BE? (show me: keep posting!)
Paul

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 04-29-2008).]

lol - so, buying carbon offsets from your link is the answer, eh?
thats right - that link is selling carbon offsets. a corporation making $$$ on frightening the public. they do NOTHING to stop actual pollution. lead, mercury, pesticides, in the waters, SO2 & CFC's in the air, hydrocarbons & beavy metals in the soil, among all the other goodies. REAL pollution. like your Valdez example. thats REAL pollution.

and again - noone here is promoting pollution. and thats where you are making this so difficult.

Venus atmosphere
95% CO2
Average tempurature is 855 degrees F

Mars atmosphere
95% CO2
Average tempurature is -67 degrees F

Earths atmosphere
.038% CO2 or about 330 parts per million

Although CO2 is a triatomic structure (that means it absorbs heat well), planetary warming is NOT related to it even in concentrations of 95% as on Mars.

Why is Venus so hot? Simple, it's oceans (water vapor) boiled off billions of years ago leaving a green house behind. Most of Venus' water has been long ago split into its constituent components of hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen leaked out into space and the remaining oxygen (A HIGHLY reactive substance) readily bonded with free sulfer and carbon molecules which accounts for the levels of CO2 we see. The levels of dueterium in Venus' atmosphere support this hypothesis. Why did the oceans boil away...Venus is 76 million miles from the sun!

Why ISN'T mars so hot? Mars' oceans are partly still there but most evaporated into space due to the low relative atmospheric pressure as the planet's core cooled and its volcanoes where incapable of sustaining it. This lowered the boiling point of water and again the water went into the atmosphere where hydrogen leaked away and oxygen combined with free carbon. So with all that water in atmosphere why didn't Mars turn into an oven? It's 135 million miles from the sun!

Are we learning?

When Earth experiences higher concentrations of water vapor in the atmosphere...you know, like 2%, you'll get my attention. Don't talk to me about CO2 anymore. The stupidity of the entire arguement is just giving me a headache.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Geeze you don't even know anything about how exxon lied about the cleanup of the Valdez spill. After they said it was "completely" cleaned up, you could go to the beach & turn over rocks & every one of them was covered with oil on the bottom. All exxon did was pressure wash the top of them all to make them look clean.

Don't know or don't give a rat's ass and two squirrel's nuts?

I think I'll rate you with a +. You're too entertaining to have kicked off or scared away from this forum.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: lol - so, buying carbon offsets from your link is the answer, eh?

HELL NO! It was just a link with a calculator.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and again - noone here is promoting pollution. and thats where you are making this so difficult.

OK since I had to answer the above, I'll add this: I'm not the one making this difficult! IT'S NOT A THREAD TO DEBATE GLOBAL WARMING. What part of that don't you understand???

I love how we are all "kids who think you know everything ('cause it's all posted on the web & we all know everything posted on the web is true), " and you do know everything because you got it from TV !!! That's priceless. So why don't prove us "kids" wrong and show how all the scientists and data and facts in the links provided are wrong?

Here's another priceless quote from you: "This is my last post in this thread."

Followed up by: "HOW DENSE CAN YOU BE? (show me: keep posting!)"
VERY DENSE! "

Priceless.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: "HOW DENSE CAN YOU BE? (show me: keep posting!)" VERY DENSE!

The same could be said of you. Your viewpoint (and that's all it is) is that CO2 causes temperature increases. It is however, in my opinion (and the opinion of many much more prominent scientists) a false conclusion. If you actually look at the data without all of the hyperbole and hoopla, you'll find that CO2 levels actually LAG temperature increases. That's a fact. Debate it all you like, but it is a fact, 100% stone cold, hard fact.

I personally could not care less how much CO2 I put out. I'm just pissed that I didn't get in on the ground floor and start a company selling people like you "carbon offsets". Seriously.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So they didn't clean it all up and said they did. That would be a lie. How exactly is continued litigation a lie? Are appeals lies now too? Rife with lies you say but only come up with one. Since when is one, rife?

Good point. Since lying about the primary responsibility they had after the disaster for the last 19 years counts as only one lie, I guess we can forget that one.

You asked what they lied about, and I provided an example, but since I alluded to more, you're more interested in the quantity of lies than whether or not they cleaned up the mess. Do you give a crap about anything other than winning an internet argument?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Good point. Since lying about the primary responsibility they had after the disaster for the last 19 years counts as only one lie, I guess we can forget that one. You asked what they lied about, and I provided an example, but since I alluded to more, you're more interested in the quantity of lies than whether or not they cleaned up the mess. Do you give a crap about anything other than winning an internet argument?

It was said "lies" indicating plural but there was only one. I did ask and you answered. There was nothing to win. All I did was ask a question. If that makes for an argument to win in your eyes maybe you have a deep seeded complex you should have looked at.

quote Originally posted by AntiKev: The same could be said of you. Your viewpoint (and that's all it is) is that CO2 causes temperature increases. It is however, in my opinion (and the opinion of many much more prominent scientists) a false conclusion. If you actually look at the data without all of the hyperbole and hoopla, you'll find that CO2 levels actually LAG temperature increases. That's a fact. Debate it all you like, but it is a fact, 100% stone cold, hard fact. I personally could not care less how much CO2 I put out. I'm just pissed that I didn't get in on the ground floor and start a company selling people like you "carbon offsets". Seriously.

Save your breath. Tha Kid is still looking-up "triatomic"

You make a great point. CO2 DOES lag tempurature rises because of the reason I mentioned above. Oxygen bonds with anything. The fact that our atmosphere has about 21% O2 is in fact an amazing reality! It wasn't always this way either. As little as 400 million years ago if you were standing on the surface of the Earth you would suffocate in minutes due to the lack of O2 in the atmosphere. The levels of O2 we enjoy today are the result of hundreds of millions of years of stromatelite growth. By both removing carbon and other elements from the atmosphere that would bond with O2 and securing those elements in carboniferous rocks (ie White Cliffs of Dover) these tiny creatures leave an atmosphere filled with O2 so we can breathe. This balance is maintained primarily by the same mechanisms today, although trees help significantly and that is why deforrestation is a major concern. But I digress; the rise in tempurature as a result of solar output, orbital cycles, and volcanic activity causes carbon to be released from the rocks and into the atmosphere where it mixes with O2 and THAT is why we see CO2 increases with tempurature increases (ie. Venus)

Mars has high CO2 levels because the size of the planet effectively moved the bar for what constitutes a rise in tempurature. Water boiled at a lower specific gravity and the oceans evaoprated just as they did on Venus. The hydrogen leaked into space and the heavier O2 left behind bonded with the increasing amounts of carbon being released into the atmosphere. The mechanisms to remove carbon from the atmospheres of both planets were overwhelmed by solar output which has increased by 30% since the formation of the system. Ironically, if Venus and Mars were to trade positions in the solar system, they both might be habitable planets today!

So the question of CO2 is one which needs to be posed in the context of what mechanism to remove it from the atmosphere is, or is not, in danger, NOT what amount humans are adding to it....which is negligable.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: I love how we are all "kids who think you know everything ('cause it's all posted on the web & we all know everything posted on the web is true), " and you do know everything because you got it from TV !!! That's priceless.

What part of "I don't believe everything I see or hear" don't you understand??? I never said I "got everything from TV". GET IT STRAIGHT!!! And don't put words in my mouth.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So why don't prove us "kids" wrong and show how all the scientists and data and facts in the links provided are wrong?

I don't have to prove a damn thing. THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THAT DEBATE. How many DOZEN times do I have to say that for you to get it through that thick dense skull of yours?

quote Originally posted by Phranc: Here's another priceless quote from you: "This is my last post in this thread." Followed up by: "HOW DENSE CAN YOU BE? (show me: keep posting!)" VERY DENSE! " Priceless.

Well if all you turds can keep posting in my thread then I can too.

quote Originally posted by AntiKev: The same could be said of you. Your viewpoint (and that's all it is) is that CO2 causes temperature increases. It is however, in my opinion (and the opinion of many much more prominent scientists) a false conclusion. If you actually look at the data without all of the hyperbole and hoopla, you'll find that CO2 levels actually LAG temperature increases. That's a fact. Debate it all you like, but it is a fact, 100% stone cold, hard fact.

What part of "THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THAT DEBATE" don't YOU understand??? What I said was the Co2 calculator is one way to measure the amount of fossil fuels we burn, & that causes pollution. But you don't CARE about how much YOU pollute.
Your "100% fact" is YOUR opinion! And it's determined by what someone else has said - but most prominent scientists disagree with you.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: You make a great point. CO2 DOES lag tempurature rises because of the reason I mentioned above. Oxygen bonds with anything. The fact that our atmosphere has about 21% O2 is in fact an amazing reality! It wasn't always this way either. As little as 400 million years ago if you were standing on the surface of the Earth you would suffocate in minutes due to the lack of O2 in the atmosphere. The levels of O2 we enjoy today are the result of hundreds of millions of years of stromatelite growth. By both removing carbon and other elements from the atmosphere that would bond with O2 and securing those elements in carboniferous rocks (ie White Cliffs of Dover) these tiny creatures leave an atmosphere filled with O2 so we can breathe. This balance is maintained primarily by the same mechanisms today, although trees help significantly and that is why deforrestation is a major concern. But I digress; the rise in tempurature as a result of solar output, orbital cycles, and volcanic activity causes carbon to be released from the rocks and into the atmosphere where it mixes with O2 and THAT is why we see CO2 increases with tempurature increases (ie. Venus) Mars has high CO2 levels because the size of the planet effectively moved the bar for what constitutes a rise in tempurature. Water boiled at a lower specific gravity and the oceans evaoprated just as they did on Venus. The hydrogen leaked into space and the heavier O2 left behind bonded with the increasing amounts of carbon being released into the atmosphere. The mechanisms to remove carbon from the atmospheres of both planets were overwhelmed by solar output which has increased by 30% since the formation of the system. Ironically, if Venus and Mars were to trade positions in the solar system, they both might be habitable planets today! So the question of CO2 is one which needs to be posed in the context of what mechanism to remove it from the atmosphere is, or is not, in danger, NOT what amount humans are adding to it....which is negligable.

Just can't leave it alone, can you? Ever since I proved you in SO MANY LIES in the Indy mat thread (& others) all you want to do is harass me. Get a life (or at least lie & act like you did - since you're so good at that).
You have ALL proven that you're VERY DENSE.

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 05-01-2008).]

CO2 is not pollution

and, I will have some Diamond Tap Shoes made, and have the most awesome Carbon Footprint ever
or perhaps, a pair of Carbon Fiber Ski Boots, for a lightwieght Carbon Footprint?
carbon is good
carbon is great

other than the H & O in H2O - C is your next most valuable & important element.
not one living thing (as we know it) would exist without C & CO2. CO2 feeds the base of the food chain.

noone here is "for" pollution. not one person.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Bla bla bla bla bla........ What part of "I don't believe everything I see or hear" don't you understand??? I never said I "got everything from TV". GET IT STRAIGHT!!! And don't put words in my mouth.

I'm just going off what you said about how TV tells you what you believe.

quote I don't have to prove a damn thing. THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THAT DEBATE. How many DOZEN times do I have to say that for you to get it through that thick dense skull of yours?

So you can't prove us "kids" wrong because we aren't thanks for clearing that up. I see why you don't want debate you don't want to be proved wrong yourself like has happened many times in this thread. Its far easier to avoid debate and piss and moan and stomp your feet then it is to actually learn and understand the whole premise of your thread is wrong.

quote Well if all you turds can keep posting in my thread then I can too.

Yeah but you are the only liar here.

You are wrong. The premise for your thread is flawed. C02 is a good indicator for how much we pollute.

quote But you don't CARE about how much YOU pollute.

Thats probably not true either. But why let facts get in the way of your hissy fit.

quote Your "100% fact" is YOUR opinion! And it's determined by what someone else has said - but most prominent scientists disagree with you.

Thats not true either. You would know that if you had followed the links provided. But you didn't do that. You made up[ excuses why you couldn't do it too. But the facts are only going to get in they way so obfuscate and avoid them.

For some one who calls every one dense you are the most dense. You refuse to even look at the other side because it shows your argument to be flawed in not only the facts but hoe you applied these flawed facts to the premise of your thread.

But you go on ahead being ignorant and getting your panties bunched when its shown you are. Yup you keep listening to the TV and ignore all the facts provided.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Just can't leave it alone, can you? Ever since I proved you in SO MANY LIES in the Indy mat thread (& others) all you want to do is harass me. Get a life (or at least lie & act like you did - since you're so good at that). You have ALL proven that you're VERY DENSE.

I have never in my life seen such a tragic case of projectionism. Get help. Seriously. Psychotherapy can help you lead a more normal, prosperous, and happy life.

As for those nice Indy Mats, I guess you haven't heard, the guy who bought them just sold them...for a $50 profit! Welcome top reality kid. A little Bactine will take care of that sting.

Now as for the topic at hand...You know Carbon footprints? Remember? Your "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" arguement is certainly quite revealing, but hardly useful.

Do you actually have anything intelligent to add to the discussion or not?

I get it: this is all just to piss me off enough to get me to start posting cuss words, so that i will be banned. No one here cares enough about anything (except themselves) to actually be debating anything, so you ignore the premise of the thread & post just to piss me off. Too bad this great forum has such low-life liars & jerks in it as to have their own agenda like this. Todd got pissed when I started a thread trying to get opinions on the condition of the mats he lied about (& ALL the contributors PROVED it! - https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087545.html ), & ever since then him & his buddies have done their best to get me banned. Keep it up: apparently there are not enough good folks here paying attention so you just may get away with it.

Since you all like links so much, here's more proof:
the UPDATED good/bad buyer/seller list
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...4/HTML/034872-8.html
ALL OF MY FIERO STUFF IS FOR SALE! (todds thread)
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...4/HTML/039760-3.html (Start at the 10th post down)
Todd's bad feedback at ebay - since you can no longer find his negatives & neutrals after he had his friends there DELETE them:
http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin...Received+by&ref=home

And what was the point of all of that? Really... You're pissing and moaning about other people thread crapping and yet, here you are, posting "Look at how much Toddster sucks" yet again... Let it go, man!

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: snip

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 05-01-2008).]

just trying to educate

the key is to not let it be personal. you have really taken this pretty hard. respond to the post - not the poster.

there are plenty of friendly disagreements. or discussions. however ya wanna put it. we've all been on the bad end of issues.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: just trying to educate the key is to not let it be personal. you have really taken this pretty hard. respond to the post - not the poster. there are plenty of friendly disagreements. or discussions. however ya wanna put it. we've all been on the bad end of issues.

Good grief. Have you not read the thread? HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO ASK EVERYONE TO NOT DEBATE GLOBAL WARMING IN THIS THREAD???? If you want to do that START YOU'R OWN DAMN THREAD!!!!

lol - like the big red button, which says "Do Not Push"

quote Originally posted by OKflyboy: And what was the point of all of that? Really... You're pissing and moaning about other people thread crapping and yet, here you are, posting "Look at how much Toddster sucks" yet again... Let it go, man!

I can't start thread here without the low-lifes jumping in & screwing it up. I'm tired of it (and a LOT of other things!).
I guess you don't remember when todd told me to "do my worst" (to inform others of his lies). He continues to harass me so.... I'n not even through with him yet. He won't let it go, so I'm not going to.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Good grief. Have you not read the thread? HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO ASK EVERYONE TO NOT DEBATE GLOBAL WARMING IN THIS THREAD???? If you want to do that START YOU'R OWN DAMN THREAD!!!!

quote . No one here cares enough about anything (except themselves) to actually be debating anything,.

So do you want to debate or not?

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So do you want to debate or not?

Only if we all agree with him, let him shout everyone down, then pat him on the back for being so wise, and most importatn of all, you must acknowledge his looking glass universe as reality.


Then you can debate all you like!

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Good grief. Have you not read the thread? HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO ASK EVERYONE TO NOT DEBATE GLOBAL WARMING IN THIS THREAD???? If you want to do that START YOU'R OWN DAMN THREAD!!!!

What about discussing Ebay seller problems. Is that OK?

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So do you want to debate or not?

Are you REALLY that stupid? What part of NO don't you understand??!!?? It's only TWO letters!

quote Originally posted by fierobear: What about discussing Ebay seller problems. Is that OK?

Judas H. Priest!!!! GOD are you guys dense. START YOUR OWN DAMN THREAD IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE ANYTHING!!! I wish you would LEARN TO READ - or at least ATTEMPT to read the above posts.
I've emailed Cliff asking him to lock or delete this thread. Keep up the BS - I'm sure he'll love to see how far you'll go.
I had to re-connect three times just to post this crap. Just STFU!

Phranc, Todd, stop it!

The Driver is waaaaay too entertaining to be chased away from this forum.

fierobear, do you have problems with ebay sellers? I have not encountered any problems. What problems do you have?

Okay...we understand. Just because a thread doesn't go the way you want it to, you go to Cliff and take time out of his busy schedule. Big deal. Now everybody quick, bow down a the altar of the Global Warming religion.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Are you REALLY that stupid? What part of NO don't you understand??!!?? It's only TWO letters!!

The part where you complain about you don't want a debate then complain no one is debating. But if its no its no. And the next time you say no one will actually debate because we don't care I'll just giggle at your indecisiveness.

[This message has been edited by Phranc (edited 05-01-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Judas H. Priest!!!! GOD are you guys dense. START YOUR OWN DAMN THREAD IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE ANYTHING!!! I wish you would LEARN TO READ - or at least ATTEMPT to read the above posts.

You said that you only want to talk about "carbon footprint", then you start a rant about a bad deal on Ebay. The fact that you can't make up your mind what you do and don't want to talk about does not make US dense.